Justice

How should we think about weird things?
User avatar
Lance Kennedy
Has No Life
Posts: 12936
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Justice

Post by Lance Kennedy » Wed May 08, 2019 1:58 am

A question for you guys.

Imagine a truly nasty pedophile. This guys grooms children, and takes them aside to brutally rape them. He has ruined the lives of 12 children, delivering them to a world of trauma. Then he gets caught and arrested. He is, of course, tried and found guilty.

Now you are the person to decide his fate. You have a choice of three sentences.

ONE.
Execute him.

TWO.
Lock him away until he is so old he has no more sex drive, maybe 80 years old, at which point he can be harmlessly dumped into an old folks home.

THREE.
This option depends on a cure being discovered. A course of injections of the miracle drug over a month will turn him into a normal heterosexual male, with an interest only in women of the proper age.
So you choose to keep him in custody for a month to receive the treatment, then release him so he can return to his old job, work for a better life, meet a nice woman, get married, raise a family, and live happily ever after.

What is your choice, and why ?

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 18864
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: After being pimped comes-----

Re: Justice

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed May 08, 2019 4:08 pm

I have the same issue with my brand new massage chair. Top of the line 3-D unit (I would now buy the 4-D "if I had known the difference) and after getting it set up and learning its functions, after only 5 days of light use the foot roller mechanism broke. KeeeRist! THATS not what I expected from brand new "made in america" quality stuff. so...call the seller. They gave incompetent advice but said they would make it right and are now contacting the manufacturer to see what they think.

In the end, I have a choice: burn the chair in the back yard, return the whole thing to seller and upgrade my choice on repurchase.........or fix the machine.

You know: when something is broken, and you don't want to burn it up in the back yard..........what else you gonna do?
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Gord
Obnoxious Weed
Posts: 34815
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:44 am
Custom Title: prostrate spurge
Location: Transcona

Re: Justice

Post by Gord » Wed May 08, 2019 6:22 pm

FOUR. Punish him according to the law.

But I think you're really asking, what should the punishment be for such a crime? That I do not know. I'm a strong believer in rehabilitation, but I don't know how to treat for this behaviour.
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE
Is Trump in jail yet?

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 18864
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: After being pimped comes-----

Re: Justice

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed May 08, 2019 6:41 pm

to me, the issue highlighted is the tension between justice/law/moral outrage/revenge/punishment...... vs ...........you know it: pragmatism.

What is the goal/function/purpose of our legal system vs what works best for society? Course....I always go with the hypothetical AS WRITTEN which always causes problems as even the authors of the hypo will for some wacky reason not even argue what they clearly set forth as conditions.

Weird eh?
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
ElectricMonk
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5127
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:21 pm
Custom Title: The Baby-eating Bishop

Re: Justice

Post by ElectricMonk » Wed May 08, 2019 6:45 pm

Lots of additional parameter required.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 18864
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: After being pimped comes-----

Re: Justice

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed May 08, 2019 7:18 pm

Not really. aka: a demand for more facts is usually a denial mechanism. I could answer it. Stick with the fact given and don't assume facts not given. Go=========>
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
ElectricMonk
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5127
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:21 pm
Custom Title: The Baby-eating Bishop

Re: Justice

Post by ElectricMonk » Wed May 08, 2019 7:27 pm

The key question is: what is the society like, how easy can it sustain a prison population, what are the chances for therapy/reintegration.

In a poor society, quick execution using simple means (i.e. hanging) might by far be the best option.

Men do not necessarily lose their sex drive, ever.


Most importantly, there must be some sort of punishment, simply as a statement by the state that a serious violation of social rules was committed.
And any funds for therapy of the perp need to come after the victim's needs have been taken care of.

User avatar
OlegTheBatty
Has No Life
Posts: 11960
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:35 pm
Custom Title: Uppity Atheist

Re: Justice

Post by OlegTheBatty » Wed May 08, 2019 8:55 pm

Option 3 misplaces the cause of his behaviour. He raped. Most people have a sex drive but do not rape.

I would pick option 2, primarily because it is the least unsatisfactory of those given. The death penalty brings the whole community down to his level, while a month long treatment program misses the point, and actually legitimizes his assaults.
. . . with the satisfied air of a man who thinks he has an idea of his own because he has commented on the idea of another . . . - Alexandre Dumas 'The Count of Monte Cristo"

There is no statement so absurd that it has not been uttered by some philosopher. - Cicero

.......................Doesn't matter how often I'm proved wrong.................... ~ bobbo the pragmatist

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 18864
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: After being pimped comes-----

Re: Justice

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed May 08, 2019 9:22 pm

Option 3 IS A CURE. see how you aren't following the hypo?
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
Has No Life
Posts: 12936
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: Justice

Post by Lance Kennedy » Wed May 08, 2019 9:32 pm

Yes.
I am probing for a feeling of how people treat the whole idea of justice. What is justice to you?
We already know from hard experience that making punishments more severe in order to create deterrence does not work.

So what is the best approach ? If a cure is possible, is that sufficient ?

I have this strong feeling that, with sufficiently sophisticated know how in the field of human behaviour, we will eventually treat all criminality as an illness. Of course, humanity still has a lot of knowledge and technological capability to gain before that is possible.

User avatar
OlegTheBatty
Has No Life
Posts: 11960
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:35 pm
Custom Title: Uppity Atheist

Re: Justice

Post by OlegTheBatty » Wed May 08, 2019 10:06 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 9:22 pm
Option 3 IS A CURE. see how you aren't following the hypo?
It is not a cure for what ails him. What ails him is the willingness to justify harming others for his own gratification. The sexual part is nothing more than a red herring. No pill can cure what ails him.

That is why execution brings the society down to his level, and why option 2 is still unsatisfactory, though less so than 1.

See how you aren't cognitive of the real world?
Last edited by OlegTheBatty on Wed May 08, 2019 10:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
. . . with the satisfied air of a man who thinks he has an idea of his own because he has commented on the idea of another . . . - Alexandre Dumas 'The Count of Monte Cristo"

There is no statement so absurd that it has not been uttered by some philosopher. - Cicero

.......................Doesn't matter how often I'm proved wrong.................... ~ bobbo the pragmatist

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 18864
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: After being pimped comes-----

Re: Justice

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed May 08, 2019 10:10 pm

Ha, ha........nope. Still can't follow the hypo. The GUY IS CURED. The red herring is cured too. Don't be confused/conflate the reality that there IS NO CURE....for the hypo that states AS A CONDITION that there is.

This theme is central to one of the great books/movies: Clockwork Orange.

I say in reality: if you can't be cured/rehabed: then kill em. There are too many people in the world already: why give a second change when you already had one?..........but thats a different hypo.
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

Tom Palven
Has More Than 6K Posts
Posts: 6180
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:29 am

Re: Justice

Post by Tom Palven » Thu May 09, 2019 8:08 pm

Hey you neoliberals, do not be afraid to check out Death Wish with Charles Bronson. Do not let the name scare you. It may surprise you.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B074G ... mv_of_dp_0

And be sure to get the old version. IT IS A HUNDRED TIMES BETTER THAN THE NEW VERSION WITH BRUCE WILLIS, and the cast includes Jeff Goldblum in his first movie role.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire