No One Really Believes Their Religion

General discussion on the subject of religion, losing religion, and having no religion to lose...
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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by gorgeous » Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:34 pm

scientists are wooists...they believe they have a mind but no evidence for it...they don't know where it is...
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by landrew » Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:48 pm

Lausten wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:33 pm
I only refer to the dictionary when someone starts claiming that whatever meaning they use is the meaning that I should have understood. Words like "faith" and "guru" require some context to know which definition/meaning you are using and sometimes they require additional explanation. You didn't provide any of that.
Ours is a "living language," where words change meanings over time, from place to place and between social groups. No dictionary can keep up. The etymology of words is a fascinating study of how words have changed meanings over time, sometimes quite radically. A good writer will coin a few new phrases or even a few words. New words enter the language every year, and many drop out of use. Someone should ask Bobbo if he reads the operator's manual every time he hops in a car.
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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by Lance Kennedy » Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:15 pm

Straw man Lausten.

I was describing what 'religion' meant. Not guru.

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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:18 pm

gorgeous wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:34 pm
scientists are wooists...they believe they have a mind but no evidence for it...they don't know where it is...
Oh c'mon. Their evidence is the same as yours. They take aspirin when their mind is burdened by constriction of blood vessels in their brains, same as yours. Etc.
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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:24 pm

landrew wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:48 pm

Ours is a "living language," where words change meanings over time, from place to place and between social groups. No dictionary can keep up. The etymology of words is a fascinating study of how words have changed meanings over time, sometimes quite radically. A good writer will coin a few new phrases or even a few words. New words enter the language every year, and many drop out of use. Someone should ask Bobbo if he reads the operator's manual every time he hops in a car.
Language doesn't change just because you misuse it. The very reason to use the dictionary. It keeps up...close enough...and certainly to correct misuse which is a different issue. Religion is a category of faith, not a synonym for it.

I read the cars operators manual whenever I forget a fact or want to confirm one. I don't assume next years model will change therefore I can do/say/think anything I want to. Excellent Analogy. Someone should ask you why you don't understand it.
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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by Lausten » Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:49 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:15 pm
Straw man Lausten.

I was describing what 'religion' meant. Not guru.
I got these two latest threads mixed up. They are melding in to one giant discussion about what meaning means.
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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by Lausten » Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:51 pm

gorgeous wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:34 pm
scientists are wooists...they believe they have a mind but no evidence for it...they don't know where it is...
You didn't use half the words in that sentence correctly. Not mention ellipsis.
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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by Lance Kennedy » Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:57 pm

Bobbo

Language changes all the time because people misuse it.
Colloquialisms enter the language, and verbal short cuts commonly become normal.

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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by landrew » Thu Mar 28, 2019 8:21 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:57 pm
Bobbo

Language changes all the time because people misuse it.
Colloquialisms enter the language, and verbal short cuts commonly become normal.
You can't "misuse" the English language. There are no laws that regulate its use. Some countries do, but it kills the language. Creativity requires going outside the bounds of orthodoxy.
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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by gorgeous » Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:00 pm

ok I won;t mention ellipsis....bobo....show me a diagram of the brain and what part is the mind....
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by Lausten » Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:30 pm

A sermon helper that doesn't tell you what to believe: http://www.milepost100.com

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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by machinegun1 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:09 pm

gorgeous wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:34 pm
scientists are wooists...they believe they have a mind but no evidence for it...they don't know where it is...
In their heads?

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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by machinegun1 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:10 pm

Is the mind within the mind within the mind of some sort of superconscious mind we all have? all in different degrees and dimensions

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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by machinegun1 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:11 pm

From the many, ONE
From many minds, ONE GOD

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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:19 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:57 pm
Bobbo

Language changes all the time because people misuse it.
Colloquialisms enter the language, and verbal short cuts commonly become normal.
Thats what I said.
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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:22 pm

landrew wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 8:21 pm
Lance Kennedy wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:57 pm
Bobbo

Language changes all the time because people misuse it.
Colloquialisms enter the language, and verbal short cuts commonly become normal.
You can't "misuse" the English language. There are no laws that regulate its use. Some countries do, but it kills the language. Creativity requires going outside the bounds of orthodoxy.
Of course you can .... all the time. Its a large part of why communication is "difficult" ie: for those who don't follow any rules and just flap their lips.

No laws, except for those that do address the issue which is mostly cultural as in half the population being below normal unless you apply statistical normalization...then only one third.

No language has been killed by regulation. France still incorporating "Le Big Mac".

Never confuse creativity which does exist with being obtuse and stubborn, and proud of it.

Silly rabbit.
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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by Wordbird » Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:45 am

landrew wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:52 pm
Language is tool for conveying thoughts, and dictionaries are a tool for seeing what others think a word means. A word means what you intend it to mean, in the context of the language a wordsmith chooses to convey ideas and feelings. Anyone who writes using a dictionary will produce the blandest and most uninteresting writings ever.
Lance Kennedy wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:56 am
You missed the point, Lauston.The point is that language is in a constant state of change, and offering new word meanings is not some kind of crime. It is just part of the linguistic dynamic.
I think the best use of that dynamic is to give that little push if a definitional scheme is more logical than the current one.

For example, if the current scheme has two synonyms that could split slightly and thus convey more information with fewer words.

However, doing the reverse would qualify as corrupting the language in my view - if you took two slightly different words and started using them as synonyms. Or if you only use definitions to obfuscate or drown out information in the first place (see: every internet troll who argues by the dictionary).

I also defend Trump's right to say bigly because this is a case of the opposite: There is no adverb for large. Largely already exists, but it actually means mostly. In this case I think trying to salvage and re-purpose largely would cause more confusion than simply legitimising bigly.

Adding to or changing language is a big responsibility. When used to help convey information, that responsibility is being used well. When used to muddy the issue, that ability is being abused.

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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by Lausten » Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:27 pm

gorgeous wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:00 pm
ok I won;t mention ellipsis....bobo....show me a diagram of the brain and what part is the mind....
gorgeous wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:34 am
scientists are wooists...they believe they have a mind but no evidence for it...they don't know where it is...
Show me the evidence that scientists believe they have a mind. I linked to a large body of work on the philosophy of mind. I don't see anything in there about a scientist saying they have defined what a mind is. It's you who believes things without evidence.
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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by gorgeous » Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:34 pm

Scientists say your “mind" isn't confined to your brain, or even your ...


https://qz.com/.../scientists-say-your- ... even-your-...


Dec 24, 2016 - The mind is the seat of consciousness, the essence of your being. ... “In our modern society we have this belief that mind is brain activity and ...
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by gorgeous » Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:35 pm

skeptics here have repeatedly said the mind is in the brain, other sites also
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by gorgeous » Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:37 pm

wiki-----
Is there a difference between the mind and the brain?
Your brain is part of the visible, tangible world of the body. Your mind is part of the invisible, transcendent world of thought, feeling, attitude, belief and imagination. The brain is the physical organ most associated with mind and consciousness, but the mind is not confined to the brain. -------we do have an invisible part of us....corresponds to the invisible worlds...
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by Lausten » Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:22 pm

Your link was broken, it's a great article https://qz.com/866352/scientists-say-yo ... your-body/

So, you're admitting you were wrong then?
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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by gorgeous » Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:27 pm

no
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by landrew » Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:28 pm

Lausten wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:22 pm
Your link was broken, it's a great article https://qz.com/866352/scientists-say-yo ... your-body/

So, you're admitting you were wrong then?
Maybe the article was pulled down because it was being relentlessly refuted.
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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by Lausten » Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:37 pm

landrew wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:28 pm
Lausten wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:22 pm
Your link was broken, it's a great article https://qz.com/866352/scientists-say-yo ... your-body/

So, you're admitting you were wrong then?
Maybe the article was pulled down because it was being relentlessly refuted.
The article is fine. My link works. Georgous quote mines it and abuses it.
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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by Lausten » Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:39 pm

This is almost a definition of “woo”. You claim to know something better than anyone, better than the best scientific minds alive. But when I ask you what the hell you are talking about, you say somebody on a forum once said it. Your inability to tell the difference between the current edges of science and some random stranger is the problem. It’s why people believe things they read on the internet or in The National Enquirer and not things they learned in 5th grade science class.

Quartz.com is left of center, but this article is fairly decent. But it doesn’t matter because you quote mine it, finding, “In our modern society we have this belief that mind is brain activity and ...” By “modern society” he is referring to the average person on the street who doesn’t think about these things much and doesn’t really care. If you tried to tell them the nuanced definition described in the article, they’d start looking at their phones and claim they had something else to do. And as well they should, there’s no reason for them to have an opinion on this, and that’s what you bank on and traffic in.

You take the lack of general knowledge about neuroscience and insert “we do have an invisible part of us”, then start making up all sorts of attributes for the invisible part. In other words, you take the wondrous mystery of the world and turn it into crap. Meanwhile, real people who care about truth have been working on this for over 20 years and you just ignore them.

From the article:
“He first came up with the definition more than two decades ago, at a meeting of 40 scientists across disciplines, including neuroscientists, physicists, sociologists, and anthropologists. The aim was to come to an understanding of the mind that would appeal to common ground and satisfy those wrestling with the question across these fields.”
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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by scrmbldggs » Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:43 pm

I'd bet one of the great attractors was the term "non-linear".


ETA This sentence can easily lend itself to some truly wondrous warping:
Siegel realized the mind meets the mathematical definition of a complex system in that it’s open (can influence things outside itself), chaos capable (which simply means it’s roughly randomly distributed), and non-linear (which means a small input leads to large and difficult to predict result).
Last edited by scrmbldggs on Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by gorgeous » Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:49 pm

10 Times the National Enquirer Has Been Right: From ... - The Wrap
https://www.thewrap.com/10-times-the-na ... rom-michae...
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by scrmbldggs » Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:52 pm

Even if that would be correct, 10 (published) times out of how many?



I added published, since reportedly the NE holds an array of true stories under wrap. It seems to be one of their many sources of income to do so...
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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by landrew » Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:58 pm

Any source can be wrong, and any source can be right. The reliability of a source is established by the ratio of right to wrong.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by Lausten » Fri Mar 29, 2019 7:05 pm

gorgeous wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:49 pm
10 Times the National Enquirer Has Been Right: From ... - The Wrap
https://www.thewrap.com/10-times-the-na ... rom-michae...
Well. That just blows my theory out of the water doesn't it. I'll just slink back to the tar pit of facts and data that I crawled out of.
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Re: No One Really Believes georgie

Post by scrmbldggs » Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:02 pm

:lol:
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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by landrew » Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:36 pm

It's not really such a mind-blower. Sometimes the facts are a bit stranger than fiction, and most of the media is too skeptical to believe it. Since the National Inquirer and the likes have very little filter, they are apt to run the stories, and sometimes they turn out to be true.
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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by Wordbird » Sat Mar 30, 2019 2:55 am

landrew wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:58 pm
Any source can be wrong, and any source can be right. The reliability of a source is established by the ratio of right to wrong.
To be fair though, the National Enquirer doesn't make its money by saying things that are even reasonably likely to be true.

If they get something right, it's like rolling double sixes.

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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by landrew » Sat Mar 30, 2019 2:45 pm

I recall an interview with a journalist who had briefly worked at the National Inquirer. She described how they first came up with a headline, and then the job was to write the story under it. Total BS.
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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Mar 30, 2019 7:23 pm

Wordbird wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 2:55 am

If they get something right, it's like rolling double sixes.
they doh't roll dice, they photoshop.
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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by landrew » Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:21 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 7:23 pm
Wordbird wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 2:55 am

If they get something right, it's like rolling double sixes.
they doh't roll dice, they photoshop.
More like Microsoft Paint.
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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by Wordbird » Sat Mar 30, 2019 9:08 pm

landrew wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 2:45 pm
I recall an interview with a journalist who had briefly worked at the National Inquirer. She described how they first came up with a headline, and then the job was to write the story under it. Total BS.
Oh, you should give me one!

Come on, do it. I have creativity pouring out of my eye sockets.

You take it before my cat does.

(Seriously, my cat does this. Found an example on YouTube.)


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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by landrew » Sat Mar 30, 2019 9:10 pm

It's just practice for after you die.
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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by Lausten » Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:29 pm

Wordbird wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 2:55 am
landrew wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:58 pm
Any source can be wrong, and any source can be right. The reliability of a source is established by the ratio of right to wrong.
To be fair though, the National Enquirer doesn't make its money by saying things that are even reasonably likely to be true.

If they get something right, it's like rolling double sixes.
That is extremely understated.
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