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Denying-History
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Transcript (Ignore - This Thread is not important.)

Post by Denying-History » Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:04 am

Jane Corbin: Today on the green hills of Rwanda, Hutu's and Tutsi's live side by side. Ethnic labels have been banned. Everything in Rwanda is founded on the official history of the genocide. A story almost solely of Hutu's killing Tutsi's. The world knows what happened in Rwanda during the genocide against the Tutsi. But when two American academics came to the country, and conducted exhaustive field work up and down Rwanda they found a different side to the story. In 1998 Allen Stam and Christian Davenport, from the University of Michigan, traveled to Rwanda to research the genocide.

Christian Davenport: We would just start going out to different villages - a lot of sites of political violence - to get sense general sense of - kind of - what was taking place.

Jane Corbin: They found the governments version of events was repeated everywhere.

Allan Stam: Every person we talked to, their story was exactly the same. That told us something was wrong; with the story. That the story was made up.

Jane Corbin: Finally the academics got beneath the surface. Using local researchers and official Rwandan government statistics.

Allan Stam: As we looked more closely a totally new understanding of what had taken place became very clear.

Christian Davenport: There's a claim, that the RPF and Kagame in particular put forward in their stopping of violence. Our research very much puts that in question.

Jane Corbin: The American's created detailed maps - plotting the killing against the frontline of advancing RPF forces. The map showed the murder of Tutsi's had largely come to an end before Kagames toops arrived in each area. Most Tutsi's were already dead or fled the country.

Allan Stam: The information we have from the Rwandan government - clearly shows the killing began and ended throughout the country before the RPF arrived. Location by location by location...

Jane Corbin: And what's the significance of what you found?

Allan Stam: Paul Kagame - his ability to stay in power, his ability to hold onto that country, depends on us all believing that he was the one that saved Rwanda. Instead of invading and conquering Rwanda. (21:00 - 23:35)

Jane Corbin: Its widely accepted that around a million Rwandans died in the genocide in just three months. And the government says over 90% were Tutsi's. But some academics have questioned this official version.

Allan Stam: Violence was committed in 1994 by almost every side and every participant in this war, break down of social order. Random violence happened. And hundreds of thousands of people died for no particular purpose.

Jane Corbin: The population records at the time of the genocide and in the troubled years before were not always reliable. But the American claim they used the most accurate figures available.

Allan Stam: If a million people died in Rwanda in 1994 — and that’s certainly possible — there is no way that the majority of them could be Tutsi.

Jane Corbin: How do you know that?

Allan Stam: Because there weren’t enough Tutsi in the country.

Jane Corbin: The academics calculated there had been 500,000 Tutsis before the conflict in Rwanda; 300,000 survived. This led them to their final controversial conclusion.

Allan Stam: If a million Rwandans died, and 200,000 of them were Tutsi, that means 800,000 of them were Hutu.

Jane Corbin: That’s completely the opposite of what the world believes happened in the Rwandan genocide.

Allan Stam: What the world believes, and what actually happened, are quite different.

Jane Corbin: Estimates for the number of Tutsi's and Hutu's killed during the genocide vary greatly. The Rwandan government asserts far more Tutsi in the country to begin with - and that nearly all those that died were Tutsi. When Stam and Davenport presented their findings they were told to leave Rwanda - accused of being genocide denier's.

Allan Stam: We have never denied that a genocide happened. We don't deny that a genocide happened. But that's only part of the story. If you believe the only story in Rwanda in 1994 was that there was a genocide - that would be like saying in world war 2 the only thing that happened of interest was the Holocaust. (29:40 -32:15)
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
Joseph E. Davies

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Re: Transcript (Ignore - This Thread is not important.)

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:11 am

Well, if you put it that way....:D
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Harvard Crimson (on why it refused to run an add by Bradley Smith):
“(It is) vicious propaganda based on utter BS that has been discredited time and time again.”

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Re: Transcript (Ignore - This Thread is not important.)

Post by Balsamo » Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:59 pm

D-H,

What is your point behind posting this? Really wondering.
Anyway, i post here the reaction from Rwanda...which is also quite interesting.

https://www.newtimes.co.rw/section/read/182070

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Re: Transcript (Ignore - This Thread is not important.)

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Feb 26, 2019 7:29 pm

Balsamo wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:59 pm
D-H,

What is your point behind posting this? Really wondering.
Anyway, i post here the reaction from Rwanda...which is also quite interesting.

https://www.newtimes.co.rw/section/read/182070
Don’t look at it, we are supposed to ignore it.

:D
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Harvard Crimson (on why it refused to run an add by Bradley Smith):
“(It is) vicious propaganda based on utter BS that has been discredited time and time again.”

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Re: Transcript (Ignore - This Thread is not important.)

Post by Balsamo » Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:06 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 7:29 pm
Balsamo wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:59 pm
D-H,

What is your point behind posting this? Really wondering.
Anyway, i post here the reaction from Rwanda...which is also quite interesting.

https://www.newtimes.co.rw/section/read/182070
Don’t look at it, we are supposed to ignore it.

:D
LOL
Hence my original question... :lol:

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Re: Transcript (Ignore - This Thread is not important.)

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:23 pm

LOL
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Harvard Crimson (on why it refused to run an add by Bradley Smith):
“(It is) vicious propaganda based on utter BS that has been discredited time and time again.”

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Re: Transcript (Ignore - This Thread is not important.)

Post by Denying-History » Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:19 am

Balsamo wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:59 pm
D-H,

What is your point behind posting this? Really wondering.
Anyway, i post here the reaction from Rwanda...which is also quite interesting.

https://www.newtimes.co.rw/section/read/182070
Was arguing with the “minister of state” Olivier Nduhungirehe about Davenport and Stams statements on Rwanda. Now if you care to know, Davenport and Stams (low) estimate for losses is 206,000 Tutsi, which does not account for their medium and high range estimates:
https://genodynamics.weebly.com/genoblo ... estimation

As for the “responses” to the documentary they are just thin air and not actual critiques. Another attack was issued by 38 “scholars, scientists, researchers, journalists and historians” which may be read on Linda Melvern’s website:
http://www.lindamelvern.com/index.php/2 ... told-story

Can serve as a perfect example and was dismantled by Filip Reyntjens here:
https://africanarguments.org/2014/10/21 ... reyntjens/

Long story short Davenport and Stams estimates for ethnic losses are questionable, but their material supports most of Reyntjens statements about the RPF. They are also not “genocide deniers” ether considering their own website discusses the ethnic violence. That’s really all I’ll probably need to fill you in on.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
Joseph E. Davies