America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Read any good books lately?
Tom Palven
Has More Than 6K Posts
Posts: 6186
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:29 am

America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by Tom Palven » Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:37 pm

I just received and browsed through William Blum’s America’s Deadliest Export: Democracy, 2013:
https://www.amazon.com/Americas-Deadlie ... est+export

If you’ve read Gore Vidal’s book, Perpetual War for Perpetual Peace…
https://www.amazon.com/Perpetual-War-Pe ... tual+peace

or Ron Paul’s book, Swords into Plowshares…
https://www.amazon.com/Swords-into-Plow ... plowshares

…or one of Blum’s other books including Freeing the World to Death or Killing Hope, you won’t find too much to surprise you here, although there are chapters on Wikileaks and Conspiracies that weren’t discussed in Blum’s previous works.

My favorite line in the book is in his chapter, Conspiracies, where he says

“Don’t believe anything until it’s been officially denied.”
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
I haven't abandoned my vices. My vices have abandoned me. --Denis Diderot

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
Has No Life
Posts: 12990
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by Lance Kennedy » Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:39 am

Humm

It seems to me to be a misnomer. The deadliest export is not democracy, but military intervention.

By the way democracy has little to do with the USA. After all, it has never truly been a democracy, and the origins of democracy go way back in history, before anyone even knew a land mass existed across the Atlantic.

Tom Palven
Has More Than 6K Posts
Posts: 6186
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:29 am

Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by Tom Palven » Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:48 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:39 am
Humm
It seems to me to be a misnomer. The deadliest export is not democracy, but military intervention.
You are right and Blum would agree with you 100%,

If you read anything by Blum you'll know that he was using the word "democracy" sarcarcastically, and probably should have put the word in quotes.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
I haven't abandoned my vices. My vices have abandoned me. --Denis Diderot

User avatar
Upton_O_Goode
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5102
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:15 am
Custom Title: Morgan de Veldt
Location: The Land Formerly Known as Pangea

Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:19 pm

Tom Palven wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:37 pm
I just received and browsed through William Blum’s America’s Deadliest Export: Democracy, 2013:
https://www.amazon.com/Americas-Deadlie ... est+export

If you’ve read Gore Vidal’s book, Perpetual War for Perpetual Peace…
https://www.amazon.com/Perpetual-War-Pe ... tual+peace

or Ron Paul’s book, Swords into Plowshares…
https://www.amazon.com/Swords-into-Plow ... plowshares

…or one of Blum’s other books including Freeing the World to Death or Killing Hope, you won’t find too much to surprise you here, although there are chapters on Wikileaks and Conspiracies that weren’t discussed in Blum’s previous works.

My favorite line in the book is in his chapter, Conspiracies, where he says

“Don’t believe anything until it’s been officially denied.”
First, many thanks for those book recommendations. I'm going to look for Vidal's book when I go to the library today. Ron Paul is at least honest, although I don't share his libertarian views (if he's the Ron Paul I'm thinking of). As for Blum, his general position on the USA is very close to mine, but I was very turned off when I read Freeing the World to Death to find him dismissing and whitewashing the horrendous Stalinist purges by saying that "people die every year, and who knows what these people died of." (Approximate quotation from memory.) Believe me, we KNOW, because the Communist Party itself revealed the truth.

Here are the OFFICIAL, USSR figures on the purges compiled by a special commission of the Central Committee. That commission was charged with explaining the carnage among delegates to the seventeenth Party Congress in 1934. In his speech to the twentieth Party Congress in 1956, Nikita Khrushchev reported that “of the 139 members and candidates of the Central Committee who were elected at the 17th Congress, 98 persons, that is, 70 per cent, were arrested and shot (mostly in 1937–1938).” In addition, Khrushchev said that “of 1,966 delegates with either voting or advisory rights, 1,108 persons were arrested on charges of anti-revolutionary crimes, that is, decidedly more than a majority.”

The commission opened the files of the security forces and discovered the following records of arrests and executions:

Year Arrests Executions

1935 114,456 1229
1936 88,873 1118
1937 918,671 353,074
1938 629,695 328,618
1939 41,627 2601
1940 127,313 1863

Thus, at the height of the terror, in 1937 and 1938, an average of 2121 people were being arrested every day, and 934 of those arrested were being shot.
Last edited by Upton_O_Goode on Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

Vyacheslav Mikhailovich Skryabin (“Molotov”)

User avatar
Gawdzilla Sama
Real Skeptic
Posts: 23693
Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2008 2:11 am
Custom Title: Deadly but evil.

Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:48 pm

And their families billed for the bullet.
Chachacha wrote:"Oh, thweet mythtery of wife, at waft I've found you!"
WWII Resources. Primary sources.
The Myths of Pearl Harbor. Demythologizing the attack.
Hyperwar. Hypertext history of the Second World War.
The greatest place to work in the entire United States.

User avatar
Upton_O_Goode
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5102
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:15 am
Custom Title: Morgan de Veldt
Location: The Land Formerly Known as Pangea

Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Sat Dec 22, 2018 1:05 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:48 pm
And their families billed for the bullet.
That's a touch added by Mao in China. I don't think that was done in Russia. But Russia invented the concept of Chesir (Член семьи изменника родины) an ungrammatical phrase (the genitive case in the last word should be dative) meaning "member of the family of a traitor to the country". They didn't have to pay for the bullet, but many of them were gratuitously arrested and sent to camps, especially if they inhabited a flat that was coveted by somebody in a position of authority.
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

Vyacheslav Mikhailovich Skryabin (“Molotov”)

User avatar
Gawdzilla Sama
Real Skeptic
Posts: 23693
Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2008 2:11 am
Custom Title: Deadly but evil.

Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Dec 22, 2018 4:01 pm

So the essence of the phrase, contempt for the relatives of the dead person, carried through.
Chachacha wrote:"Oh, thweet mythtery of wife, at waft I've found you!"
WWII Resources. Primary sources.
The Myths of Pearl Harbor. Demythologizing the attack.
Hyperwar. Hypertext history of the Second World War.
The greatest place to work in the entire United States.

User avatar
Upton_O_Goode
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5102
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:15 am
Custom Title: Morgan de Veldt
Location: The Land Formerly Known as Pangea

Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:29 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 4:01 pm
So the essence of the phrase, contempt for the relatives of the dead person, carried through.
Exactly! Guilt by association. There's an old fable (probably goes back to Aesop---I haven't checked) published in French by La Rochefoucauld and then translated into Russian and published as if new by Krylov, called "The Wolf and the Sheep." The wolf tells the sheep that the sheep is roiling up the mud in the river and spoiling his drink. The sheep meekly agrees to move downstream. That doesn't satisfy the wolf, who begins to complain that the dogs who guard the flock are always trying to kill him and that the sheep slandered him with lurid atrocity tales the year before. The sheep protests that he was not born until this year. The wolf then says, "Well, then it was your brother." The sheep says, "I don't have any brothers." The wolf then says, "All right, maybe it was your godfather. I don't have time to go into all the details of your offenses. It's your fault because I'm hungry." And drags the sheep off into the forest....
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

Vyacheslav Mikhailovich Skryabin (“Molotov”)

Tom Palven
Has More Than 6K Posts
Posts: 6186
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:29 am

Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by Tom Palven » Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:12 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:39 am
Humm

It seems to me to be a misnomer. The deadliest export is not democracy, but military intervention.
Blum was being sarcastic, and "democracy" should have been in quotes.

Ron Paul is spot-on regarding this most recent example of the US exporting "democracy:"

Trump's Venezuela Fiasco:
http://www.ronpaulinstitute.org/archive ... la-fiasco/
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
I haven't abandoned my vices. My vices have abandoned me. --Denis Diderot

User avatar
Gawdzilla Sama
Real Skeptic
Posts: 23693
Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2008 2:11 am
Custom Title: Deadly but evil.

Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:15 pm

"Democracy is the worst political system we've tried, except for all others." Winston Spencer Churchill. (Notorious 1/2 American.)
Chachacha wrote:"Oh, thweet mythtery of wife, at waft I've found you!"
WWII Resources. Primary sources.
The Myths of Pearl Harbor. Demythologizing the attack.
Hyperwar. Hypertext history of the Second World War.
The greatest place to work in the entire United States.

mack_10
Poster
Posts: 65
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:30 am

Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by mack_10 » Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:48 pm

What should "good/useful" democracy look like?
What changes would we need to make in order for it to do the right thing by the people, instead of for the government?

User avatar
OlegTheBatty
Has No Life
Posts: 11974
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:35 pm
Custom Title: Uppity Atheist

Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by OlegTheBatty » Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:49 pm

mack_10 wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:48 pm
What should "good/useful" democracy look like?
What changes would we need to make in order for it to do the right thing by the people, instead of for the government?
The primary motivation for any living system is self preservation. Whether the system is a cell, a human or an organization makes no difference. There is no possible organization that can be prevented from prioritizing its own existence. Over time it will attempt to enhance its own power over other organizations including those whose role is to hold a balance of power.

The 3 branches holding equal but different power, so that no one branch can hold sway over the others has the best record, but, as the US has shown, that too can be gamed.


So, to answer your second question: The first change that would be needed would be to change human nature.
. . . with the satisfied air of a man who thinks he has an idea of his own because he has commented on the idea of another . . . - Alexandre Dumas 'The Count of Monte Cristo"

There is no statement so absurd that it has not been uttered by some philosopher. - Cicero

.......................Doesn't matter how often I'm proved wrong.................... ~ bobbo the pragmatist

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 19016
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: After being pimped comes-----

Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jan 29, 2019 3:57 pm

Checks and balances are required in a democracy and one easy general observation is that "rule of law" needs to be in play. On this point, the USA appears to be failing somewhat. Trump was violating many different laws on his first day in office and yet here we are two years later and no charges have even been brought. Its said to the point of losing effect that "our politics is broken"........but so is our legal system when it comes to politics. Yes, Special Counsel looks like it is applying itself...........BUT ITS BEEN TWO YEARS of criminal self dealing by Trump. That is not a system that "works." We ARE losing our democracy to CORRUPTION. Lots of threads/issues/way to describe it. Human Nature....as good as any.
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 19016
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: After being pimped comes-----

Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jan 29, 2019 4:03 pm

So.......on point, as stated early in the thread: its our military intervention that is deadly and wrong.....not democracy. The use of "democracy" is not sarcastic but simply just wrong. Headlines are often that way........meant to capture attention and sell books. What the author means is clear even in the subtitle.

I blame the Publishers. THEY are the most deadly: polluting ideas while claiming to promote them. ((sarc: on and off so fast, you can't tell))
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

Matthew Ellard
Obnoxious Weed
Posts: 30516
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am
Custom Title: Big Beautiful Bouncy Skeptic

Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:25 pm

mack_10 wrote: What changes would we need to make in order for it to do the right thing by the people, instead of for the government?
I agree with Oleg's comment.

I also suggest that there is no "best solution". According to political application of Arrow's Impossibility theorem, as there is no one right solution, you cannot state if one method is better than another. All you can do is remove obvious hindrances from the overall political environment like corruption. foreign interference and so on.

Also, because the voting population's desires change over time, the political system needs to be dynamic and also needs to be able to change over time. That sort of suggests that, by having three competing wings of government, in a fuzzy "trade off", allows the most effective wing of government to deal with unknown future matters.

/////////////

I still think the USA needs to adopt the Commonwealth rule, that any bill that is raised in parliament or congress should only deal with one matter to allow for clear voting. I think it is insane that the USA can have three or four issues all mixed together in one bill.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 19016
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: After being pimped comes-----

Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:40 am

I like your "one issue rule." In USA it is touted as a way for deals and compromises to be reached........but I think that is basically a lie. A simple rule change that could have great effects. Thanks.
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
OlegTheBatty
Has No Life
Posts: 11974
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:35 pm
Custom Title: Uppity Atheist

Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by OlegTheBatty » Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:43 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:40 am
I like your "one issue rule." In USA it is touted as a way for deals and compromises to be reached........but I think that is basically a lie. A simple rule change that could have great effects. Thanks.
You are correct, it is a lie. The purpose is to get rules/laws passed that would not have a hope in hell if they stood alone.
. . . with the satisfied air of a man who thinks he has an idea of his own because he has commented on the idea of another . . . - Alexandre Dumas 'The Count of Monte Cristo"

There is no statement so absurd that it has not been uttered by some philosopher. - Cicero

.......................Doesn't matter how often I'm proved wrong.................... ~ bobbo the pragmatist

User avatar
Austin Harper
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5514
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2011 2:22 pm
Custom Title: Rock Chalk Astrohawk
Location: Detroit

Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by Austin Harper » Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:20 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:25 pm
I still think the USA needs to adopt the Commonwealth rule, that any bill that is raised in parliament or congress should only deal with one matter to allow for clear voting. I think it is insane that the USA can have three or four issues all mixed together in one bill.
Hear hear!
Dum ratio nos ducet, valebimus et multa bene geremus.

User avatar
Cadmusteeth
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1310
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2014 7:43 pm
Location: USA

Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by Cadmusteeth » Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:39 am

I read somewhere that the US is technically a republic and it listed the differences.

User avatar
Cadmusteeth
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1310
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2014 7:43 pm
Location: USA

Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by Cadmusteeth » Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:40 am

Here it is! https://www.diffen.com/difference/Democracy_vs_Republic
Oh, and I'm on board with Matt's idea.

Matthew Ellard
Obnoxious Weed
Posts: 30516
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am
Custom Title: Big Beautiful Bouncy Skeptic

Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:44 am

Cadmusteeth wrote: I read somewhere that the US is technically a republic and it listed the differences.
That would be correct. In a pure democracy, the majority can vote for what they want. In a republic, there is constitutional protection for minorities, regardless of what the majority votes for.

https://www.diffen.com/difference/Democracy_vs_Republic

Tom Palven
Has More Than 6K Posts
Posts: 6186
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:29 am

Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by Tom Palven » Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:55 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:44 am
Cadmusteeth wrote: I read somewhere that the US is technically a republic and it listed the differences.
That would be correct. In a pure democracy, the majority can vote for what they want. In a republic, there is constitutional protection for minorities, regardless of what the majority votes for.

https://www.diffen.com/difference/Democracy_vs_Republic
There would be constitutional protection for minorities like Eugene Debs, Snowden, and Assange, except for the fact that the Constitution's Bill of Rights is dead, dead, dead, void where prohibited by law.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
I haven't abandoned my vices. My vices have abandoned me. --Denis Diderot

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
Has No Life
Posts: 12990
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by Lance Kennedy » Wed Jan 30, 2019 3:02 am

I think, looking at Matthew's reference, that it is written by someone with a pro republic agenda. It is worded deliberately in a misleading way so as to make democracy look bad compared to a republic. In fact, Democracies rather often have a constitution in which rights for minorities are protected. A democracy is not a system set up to permit the majority to rule and exploit minorities. That may be a possibility, but is not a built in characteristic. There are also lots of republics where democratic freedoms are ignored, both for minorities and the majority.

Matthew Ellard
Obnoxious Weed
Posts: 30516
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am
Custom Title: Big Beautiful Bouncy Skeptic

Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Jan 30, 2019 4:08 am

Tom Palven wrote: There would be constitutional protection for minorities like Eugene Debs, Snowden, and Assange, except for the fact that the Constitution's Bill of Rights is dead, dead, dead, void where prohibited by law.
You made so many errors, I have to list them.

1) Assange is not a USA citizen. He is a Ecuadorian and Australian dual citizen, "on the run" in the UK.
2) The USA has a Constitution which protected Eugene Deb's with due legal process. He was convicted by the unanimous Supreme Court of the USA.
3) Edward Snowden defected to Russia after stealing USA secrets and giving them to Russia.
4) USA Supreme Court rulings do not "void the constitution" but rather defines circumstances where an activity is not protected by the Constitution.


Try get something right next time. :lol: :lol:
US constitional law for dummies.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Matthew Ellard
Obnoxious Weed
Posts: 30516
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am
Custom Title: Big Beautiful Bouncy Skeptic

Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Jan 30, 2019 4:11 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:I think, looking at Matthew's reference, that it is written by someone with a pro republic agenda..........
Thank the stars I don't have to describe the constitutional monarchies, that we live in, in Australia and New Zealand That would take a week.

All power is vested in someone who isn't allowed to use any of it.
:D

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 19016
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: After being pimped comes-----

Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jan 30, 2019 4:17 am

Any form of gubment can have a constitution that may or may not guarantee certain rights to identified groups.

Republican form of gubment is by elected representatives.

Democratic form of gubment is by direct election without middlemen.

Simple, basic. Its rather surprising that anyone would put in writing that Republics have constitutions whereas Democracies do not. I wonder what else is being misrepresented?.............but not enough to look.
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
Has No Life
Posts: 12990
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by Lance Kennedy » Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:00 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 4:11 am


All power is vested in someone who isn't allowed to use any of it. [/color] :D
By far the best form of government. Otherwise we might (gasp. Horror.) have to give power to bloody politicians.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 19016
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: After being pimped comes-----

Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jan 30, 2019 3:56 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:00 am
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 4:11 am


All power is vested in someone who isn't allowed to use any of it. [/color] :D
By far the best form of government. Otherwise we might (gasp. Horror.) have to give power to bloody politicians.
Silly statement/sentiment. Power IS held by politicians.

.................Just look.
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

Matthew Ellard
Obnoxious Weed
Posts: 30516
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am
Custom Title: Big Beautiful Bouncy Skeptic

Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:14 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:All power is vested in someone who isn't allowed to use any of it. :D
Lance Kennedy wrote:By far the best form of government. Otherwise we might (gasp. Horror.) have to give power to bloody politicians.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist" wrote:Silly statement/sentiment. Power IS held by politicians. .................Just look.
Lance and I did look at our constitutions. You didn't. All power is held by the monarch, same as Canada and the UK. All politicians serve at the monarch's request. All public prosecutions are done on behalf of the Crown. The Royal Australian Air Force's commanding officer is the monarch. Everything is defined that way in our constitutions.

As the monarch chooses not to use any of their power, the people make big political changes through constitutional referendums and smaller political changes through political elections.

In contrast you have a whole separate idiot called a "president" who closes down governments to get through his own party's political agenda. That can't happen in Commonwealth countries.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 19016
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: After being pimped comes-----

Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:24 am

There are fairy tales........................and then what happens.

Know the difference.
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

Matthew Ellard
Obnoxious Weed
Posts: 30516
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am
Custom Title: Big Beautiful Bouncy Skeptic

Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:37 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: There are fairy tales........................and then what happens. Know the difference.
Why are you posting empty incoherent sentences like Gorgeous? :lol: :lol:

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 19016
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: After being pimped comes-----

Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jan 31, 2019 4:05 pm

No, not like Gorgeous. Like bobbo. Usually allusions to literature......but a third eye might see them as well.
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
Has No Life
Posts: 12990
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by Lance Kennedy » Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:04 pm

Bobbo

It is not smart to argue with Matthew on politics. He is GOOD at that subject.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 19016
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: After being pimped comes-----

Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:09 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:04 pm
Bobbo

It is not smart to argue with Matthew on politics. He is GOOD at that subject.
I haven't noticed that AT ALL. In fact: very much the opposite. Are you conflating arguing with science deniers and practitioners of Woo and the armaments of WW2 Tanks with "politics". Not the same thing at all. For instance: claiming the Queen has "power" is more lie than truth, trotted out when nostalgia and an old joke is required. Is "power" words on a paper that have not been "used" in 300 years "really" a power? I don't think so. Power is what power does.....not what ignored words on a piece of paper say.

Similarly, whether or not Assange "should be" charged with Treason is not politics........but rather values. Another area not used or known by Matt.

Lance: can you narrow down exactly what about Matt's posting does bamboozle you?

Matt is so incompetent I keep vacillating between not responding at all and responding only in clips.........should I continue to give folks like you the object lesson you so obviously need?
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
Has No Life
Posts: 12990
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by Lance Kennedy » Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:26 pm

Matt is not incompetent in his proper field, which is law and politics. I occasionally feel impatient with his tendency to get insulting with people who do not meet his standard of smart. But frankly Bobbo, in his field, I would rather accept Matt's posts than yours.

My own area of competence is science, and especially biology. So I am a little reluctant to get too involved in law and politics. However, I am fallibly human and do have opinions, which I sometimes post.

Matthew Ellard
Obnoxious Weed
Posts: 30516
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am
Custom Title: Big Beautiful Bouncy Skeptic

Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri Feb 01, 2019 12:21 am

Lance Kennedy wrote: Bobbo, It is not smart to argue with Matthew on politics. He is GOOD at that subject.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: I haven't noticed that AT ALL.
How could you. I discuss things you don't understand. :lol: :lol:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:For instance: claiming the Queen has "power" is more lie than truth,
So you still haven't read any Commonwealth constitutions. Colour me suprised!!
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Similarly, whether or not Assange "should be" charged with Treason is not politics
Nor is it something I ever said you complete idiot. The word "treason" doesn't appear in the Espionage Act. :lol: :lol:

Give up Bobbo. You just make stuff up all the time. :lol: :lol:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:In the USA at the beginning when there was no legislature, all the law was common.
What year was that Bobbo?

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 19016
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: After being pimped comes-----

Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Feb 01, 2019 1:31 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:26 pm
Matt is not incompetent in his proper field, which is law and politics. I occasionally feel impatient with his tendency to get insulting with people who do not meet his standard of smart. But frankly Bobbo, in his field, I would rather accept Matt's posts than yours.

My own area of competence is science, and especially biology. So I am a little reluctant to get too involved in law and politics. However, I am fallibly human and do have opinions, which I sometimes post.
Well Lance: you are being mesmerized by Matts BS and unbounded hubris AND confusing word distinctions of no merit with analysis. Let me test you: do you think the Queen of England has all the Power in the Commonwealth system? How about "any" power? In either case: just what is that power?....and when was the last time it was actually exercised? Questions Matt won't answer either because it reveals his political shrewdness as nothing more than ceremony and fairy tales.

Did you follow any of the discussion on stare decisis? Matt gave three examples of how cases are overturned and then still maintained that stare decisis must be followed. The two concepts are mutually exclusive. You might miss that in Matts Bluster....although after 5 times.....he refuses to answer the question and reverts to what you have noticed: his name calling. Matts true expertise.
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 19016
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: After being pimped comes-----

Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Feb 01, 2019 1:34 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 12:21 am
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Similarly, whether or not Assange "should be" charged with Treason is not politics
Nor is it something I ever said you complete idiot. The word "treason" doesn't appear in the Espionage Act. :lol: :lol:
I agree on both points. You said Debs was charged with Treason based on what he published under the espionage act. Each case is fact specific. I apologize, quibble though it is.
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

Matthew Ellard
Obnoxious Weed
Posts: 30516
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am
Custom Title: Big Beautiful Bouncy Skeptic

Re: America's Deadliest Export: Democracy

Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri Feb 01, 2019 1:40 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Well Lance: you are being mesmerized by Matts BS and unbounded hubris AND confusing word distinctions of no merit with analysis.
You mean Lance knows I studied political economics at uni and that you can't construct coherent sentences.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Let me test you: do you think the Queen of England has all the Power in the Commonwealth system?
You absolute idiot. The Commonwealth Primes Ministers are the Queen's Prime Ministers. It's her government. That's why everything is done on behalf of the "crown". She also owns the Royal Navy, The Royal Australian Air Force and so on.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Did you follow any of the discussion on stare decisis?
I hope so, because you didn't understand a word of what I was saying and after two weeks made this hilarious claim....
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:In the USA at the beginning when there was no legislature, all the law was common.
What year was that Bobbo? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Matthew Ellard
Obnoxious Weed
Posts: 30516
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am
Custom Title: Big Beautiful Bouncy Skeptic

Bobbo is an idiot

Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri Feb 01, 2019 1:45 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: I agree on both points.
So you lied when you claimed I said, Assange, a foreigner, should be charged with "treason"? How do you charge a non-USA citizen with treason, you complete idiot? :lol: :lol: :lol:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: You said Debs was charged with Treason .........
You are lying again. I quoted the exact case where Debs was convicted under the Espionage Act (1917)

Why do you and Tom Palven lie more when you get caught lying? :lol: :lol: