Brexit

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Re: Brexit

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:26 am

Poodle wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:20 am
Setting the scene for today ...

The House of Commons yesterday voted against a no-deal scenario. The same august body doesn't want the 'final' offer which is on the table and the EU keep repeating that the 'final' offer really is the final offer.

I hope you've all read Catch 22, because here it is in reality. However, the default position is that the UK exits very soon and, in the absence of any agreement, that will be a no-deal exit. Aren't politicians wonderful?

Parliament opens in about 5 hours. Let battle begin!
Less than an hour to go....tick, tick, tick.... (Reminds me of a British cryptic puzzle I worked last week, where the clue was "Instant credit (4)." The answer finally dawned on me: "tick". It took me three times as long to get this double definition as it would have taken a Brit, since Americans don't think of "tick" as a synonym for "instant" and never use it as a slang term for credit. I had heard it and would have recognized it if it were used in that sense, but it didn't bubble up out of my memory. Two nations divided by a common language, as they say. I remember being on a ferry boat and talking to a British man back in 1981. He was saying he thought American prosperity was all based on credit, but British people rarely bought anything "on the hire-purchase." Not knowing what he meant, I heard it as "higher purchase," but I didn't want to reveal my ignorance by asking him about it.)


There is something Milo-Minderbinderish about a Parliament (or a Senate) that steadfastly pursues its own agenda in heedless disdain of reality. And, like Milo, it's probably making something on the side by sacrificing ordinary people. (Or is that too cynical?)
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:41 am

British Politics? Cynical?
You bet your sweet bippie (a phrase I learned when working the European premiere of 'Chicago'). Those were the days.

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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:41 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:14 am
Well, there are different categories. There has never been a funnier book than Catch-22, although a few have equaled it, such as Changing Places by David Lodge. As for Greatest Book Ever Written, I could list half a dozen candidates, but that's another thread.
I still recall "vividly" my college Prof saying we would all find Catch-22 quite funny but he had many Veterans who could not finish the book and had to put it down as too painful. I've always been happy for that headsup as it was only 6 years later I ran into what could be positioned as a Milominderbinder situation........or just good charity in the midst of war? Shirley, that was the case???

I have the same view on "tick" as you report. If it was said to me, I think I'd catch it as things speeding up or rising is an "uptick.....up-tick.....up tick"...anyway, one of those ticks, but I would have never finished that crossword puzzle. I'm usually not very good at those....too "concrete" in my thinking.
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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:02 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:14 am
As for Greatest Book Ever Written, I could list half a dozen candidates, but that's another thread.
I agree totally...ergo saying imo twice. But you really have my curiosity ticked. I think Catch-22 is "MY" Greatest because it was about WAR and its futility ((and SO MANY other issues with the humor only being an AMAZING add on?)) and I was facing the Draft for Vietnam and I did think about Snowdens Secret when flying my own airplane. I think I would have freaked if actually shot at: so uncivilized........but it wouldn't have been the bullets and the risk so much as the "foreshadowing" of Snowdens Secret and the dread of art foretelling my future?. I can think of some other "excellent books" and on reflection, I note they all have some contact to my own life. Maybe "meaningful" or "relevant" would be a better descriptor, but "Great" I think is pretty close? The Arrangement, The Magus, Slaughterhouse Five. War Novels, Novels of Great Historic swath, Russians....don't do it for me. Neither do the earlier great novels, the dislocation of only slightly different language throws me off again.

So many GREAT books. Just Find One....and enjoy it.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:38 pm

Interesting day. The House of Commons has determined that if Mrs May's plan is voted down (which, without doubt, it will be) she will be given only three days in which to come up with an alternative. That doesn't seem possible unless it's a straightforward no-deal arrangement. Parliament is still in session for another two and a half hours (until 7.30 pm) so an alternative explanation may be forthcoming.
EDIT: Ah! - it's a manoeuvre to avoid forcing May's resignation when she loses the Brexit vote. As the only viable alternative form of Brexit is no-deal, she'll have to either get behind that OR backpedal like hell and rescind Article 50 ie cancel the whole thing and stay in the EU. Watch for a revolution if that happens!

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Re: Brexit

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:27 pm

Thanks for the update, Poodle. I continue to watch and listen with rapt attention.
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

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Re: Brexit

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:36 am

Poodle. You and your family are always welcome to move down to Australia.

We still all speak something very close to English
We have meat pies & peas ......and all that lovely non English cuisine.
Our beaches have white sand and not small pebbles like the UK.

We won't run out of food and immediately go into recession because of Brexit.
:D

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Re: Brexit

Post by TJrandom » Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:41 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:36 am
Poodle. You and your family are always welcome to move down to Australia.

We still all speak something very close to English
We have meat pies & peas ......and all that lovely non English cuisine.
Our beaches have white sand and not small pebbles like the UK.

We won't run out of food and immediately go into recession because of Brexit.
:D
And sharks and crocs for anyone who steps out of line... I ate a beef pie last week - a rather nasty first encounter, not to be repeated. It was more a gravy dumpling. They said it was black angus, but I suspect it was Englishman. Buyer beware!

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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:01 am

... and nasty spiders and snakes, and those hats with corks hanging from them, and extreme right-wingers in Queensland. But I had a good time for the couple of months I was there.
As to Mrs May's three days to save her career, I got it wrong. There is, of course, yet another alternative - cancelling Brexit altogether - and it looks like it was this for which the three-day limit is designed. It was pushed by the Speaker, John Bercow, who is supposed to be scrupulously neutral in all things (and yes, there are ructions following his interference).
Cancelling Brexit would precipitate a revolution, I think, and rightly so - a referendum is a referendum, no matter how much you dislike the outcome.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:01 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:36 am
Poodle. You and your family are always welcome to move down to Australia.

We still all speak something very close to English
We have meat pies & peas ......and all that lovely non English cuisine.
Our beaches have white sand and not small pebbles like the UK.

We won't run out of food and immediately go into recession because of Brexit.
:D
And you drive on the left side of the road. Don't forget that! (So do the Indians and the Japanese, however.)
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

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Re: Brexit

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:04 pm

Poodle wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:01 am
... and nasty spiders and snakes, and those hats with corks hanging from them, and extreme right-wingers in Queensland. But I had a good time for the couple of months I was there.
As to Mrs May's three days to save her career, I got it wrong. There is, of course, yet another alternative - cancelling Brexit altogether - and it looks like it was this for which the three-day limit is designed. It was pushed by the Speaker, John Bercow, who is supposed to be scrupulously neutral in all things (and yes, there are ructions following his interference).
Cancelling Brexit would precipitate a revolution, I think, and rightly so - a referendum is a referendum, no matter how much you dislike the outcome.
Actually, I understood you to say in your earlier post that the three days might lead to a decision to cancel Brexit. My wife thinks Theresa May ought to be working out an alternative plan now. But what could it be? On one side: no-deal Brexit. On the other side: no Brexit. All the ground in between and in every other direction has been roped off by the EU negotiators. Or so it seems. Maybe they'll blink when faced with the loss of such a major player. (Or maybe not; I'm not sure the French have ever become quite reconciled to British membership. Britain is a rival for the affections of the Germans.)
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:33 pm

Or so it seems, indeed. I cannot understand what is going on in Parliament at the moment - why don't they simply move to the vote? They're still talking about the May deal which has no hope of passing - I think merely because that's what's been scheduled. We shall see - the dread date approaches quickly. There's still time left for a bit more comedy, though, although (apart from Jeremy Corbyn calling for a general election, which he does at the drop of a hat) today has been mirthless so far.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:12 am

This morning I discover that the reason I couldn't understand what was going on yesterday is that the playing field has become distinctly unlevel. First of all, Mrs May is reported to be furious with three of her Cabinet members who have had the temerity to express their own opinions in public (which has been the norm for Brexit for some time) rather than following her preferred line.
Secondly, some 4000 civil servants in various departments have been instructed to shelve whatever they are doing and begin serious preparations for a no-deal Brexit. Before now, the no-deal 'threat' has been treated as a pressure technique to force the EU commission back to the negotiating table. But shifting the direction of 4000 civil servants cannot be that - it can only be a genuine preparation for no-deal. Of course, that's only sensible given that it's always been a possibility - but 4000 all at once? That looks to be serious.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:07 pm

Poodle wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:12 am
This morning I discover that the reason I couldn't understand what was going on yesterday is that the playing field has become distinctly unlevel. First of all, Mrs May is reported to be furious with three of her Cabinet members who have had the temerity to express their own opinions in public (which has been the norm for Brexit for some time) rather than following her preferred line.
Secondly, some 4000 civil servants in various departments have been instructed to shelve whatever they are doing and begin serious preparations for a no-deal Brexit. Before now, the no-deal 'threat' has been treated as a pressure technique to force the EU commission back to the negotiating table. But shifting the direction of 4000 civil servants cannot be that - it can only be a genuine preparation for no-deal. Of course, that's only sensible given that it's always been a possibility - but 4000 all at once? That looks to be serious.
Certainly, it's a straw in the wind. Actually, it's a haymow's worth of straws in the wind. Seems to be no doubt which way it's blowing.

Just looking cynically at this from what I conceive to be the personal advantage of Brussels bureaucrats, Brexit will be costly for them, but if they cave in to Theresa May's demands, they risk encouraging other nations to withdraw from the EU. (I'm thinking Greece and Portugal here, countries that loved all the largesse they got 20 years ago but now don't like the currency controls that come with the Euro.) So, they need to make withdrawal as painful as possible for the withdrawer.
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:32 pm

That risk has been there for some time, UoG, and Italy in particular is threatening just such a thing (after the EU forced a pretty tough economic 'reality' on them). The Visegrad countries are rumbling at regular intervals too. Greece would like to, but can't because it now owes more to the EU than its entire economy could ever pay back (which should be a warning to all members).
The only demand May has made (it's her deal which has been accepted by the EU after all) is that they put a termination date on the Irish 'backstop' (which has now apparently morphed into the all-UK backstop in which the entire country stays in a customs union until the EU agree to drop it). They have refused, instead preferring to merely state (verbally) that they would never dream of trapping the UK into permanent membership by never agreeing to drop it. Fall for that one and the UK will deserve everything it gets.
It has now become as obvious as obvious can be that the nightmare federal aims of the EU Commission are real. They want a USE and are prepared to cripple the more fragile national economies to attain it. I think it could only ever be a curate's egg at best, and, at worst, would create abject poverty in the southern European states. So it's a no from me.
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Re: Brexit

Post by OlegTheBatty » Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:52 pm

I bet the north magnetic pole didn't have a referendum before it decided to {!#%@} off.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:37 pm

The rest of the Poles aren't too happy either. They're accusing the EU of discrimination amongst its members (which is, I think, obvious).

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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:11 am

Doom is approaching. Tuesday is decision day. It has to be because, if we delay any longer, we will enter the European election cycle and will be obliged to take part if we have not declared our chosen exit officially. That means electing Euro MPs, paying our dues etc. That would go down like a lead balloon. The observant amongst you will also realise that it means we have no time left for a General Election, no time left for a new referendum, no time left for any more time-wasting efforts. By tomorrow, hopefully, our political representatives will realise this and cease being professional arseholes and get on with the job.
Tuesday, then. That's when Parliament gets the final vote on Mrs May's proposal (without the slightest doubt doomed to be voted down). That leaves a very quick decision to be made between staying where we are or exiting on a no-deal basis. At the moment, despite our more vociferous politicians occupying all the newspaper headlines with predictions of doom, there is a majority (small, but insistent) for the no-deal and the UK's return to trading in its own right on WTO rules. This does not preclude trade with the EU, but would make it a tad more expensive. It would also make trade with the rest of the world much simpler.
Only two things could change that - the EU could agree to insert a time limit on the Irish backstop. As you all know, they have consistently refused to do that. But remember the three days she was given? That comes immediately into force if she's voted down. Three days to come up with a completely different plan which satisfies a majority of MPs. That's cloud cuckoo land.
EDIT: Changed Wednesday to Tuesday and added the three day comment.
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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:17 am

I've seen a clip from a UK person saying that "even with our recent declines, we are still the Worlds Fifth largest economy". That surprised me a bit...although, I've never thought about it.

1&2--USA or China depending on what you want to fudge
3....I assume is Germany?

So now.....who edged out the UK? France would be an obvious contender...but my gut says no. Who else is left? Does someone grab No 4 with oil revenue (Saudis) or do bananas add up that fast (Brasil)? India should be fairly close given their size and population....could tech support be making that much???

I could look it up.........but its fun to see if it will come to me. Hmmm....go thru the G-8 for starters. Russia while a tech leader in some fields is way down on the list. If only ice had market value???....Ha, ha..........then Canada would take the lead.....sorry Vlad.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:17 am

So, less than 48 hours to D-Day, or perhaps we should say "MAYday!" as Britain prepares to bail out of the flaming airplane it's in.

By that time, Trump will have created the mother of all constitutional crises in the US by declaring an emergency to deal with a manifestly non-emergent problem. We do have so much in common with our British cousins. And both of us used to look down on the French, regarding them as an ungovernable country full of malcontents. Oh wait! We still can....
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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:59 am

Part of the real meaning of democracy is the freedom to sometimes make stupendous cock-ups. Not that I think either Trump or Brexit is one of those - yet.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:05 pm

Bobbo - it all depends upon which list you use. Our best position is fifth, but one has us as ninth. That one, though, lists the EU as second - which obviously includes the UK. Another has Italy as third, which is patently ridiculous as they're in economic collapse at the moment. So there's lots of data for both pessimists and optimists.
There's such a list for the year 2020, interestingly.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Sun Jan 13, 2019 3:08 pm

Poodle wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:59 am
Part of the real meaning of democracy is the freedom to sometimes make stupendous cock-ups. Not that I think either Trump or Brexit is one of those - yet.
While we wait, let's chat. Yesterday, I checked out of the library a DVD with a four-part British drama produced in 2012 and called "Secret State." I've watched the first two episodes and will watch the other two today, because it's so friggin' cold here that I'm not inclined to go out. Anyway, it's sufficient to hold my interest, but I keep wondering: Why does the central character, Tom Dawkins, DPM and acting PM in the first episode (after the demise of the PM), then PM in the second episode, keep pronouncing "schedule" as if he were an American? Does he write things like "authorize" also?
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Sun Jan 13, 2019 5:45 pm

You'd be surprised how many words have been re-engineered in the UK for US pronunciation. The pronunciation argument has always been on a majority basis - and you have us cold when it comes to numbers. I'm always going to argue for the history - but even that contains a popular usage argument. I have observed 'schedule' for a number of years and, slowly and surely, the US pronunciation is winning. The -ize ending is not American - it's the difference between Oxford and Cambridge Universities, as you'll see if you examine the differences between the Oxford and Cambridge dictionaries. The OED is the winner here - but that doesn't make it de facto correct. I'm a stick-in-the-mud when it comes to my language - but that's wrong. Language is what language does. It's nice to know the history and extremely annoying when you realise that you're part of the history rather than current trends, but that's how language has always gone (the bastards!).
But yes - I say 'shedule'.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:45 pm

Yeah, the -ise vs. -ize is a matter of history, going back to ancient Greece. What's involved is a large class of Greek verbs like komizo (κομίζω), meaning I take [someone somewhere]. Because these verbs contain the Greek letter zeta (which, however, is authentically pronounced "zd" as in Tuesday), it was thought that they should be spelled with the English letter z. (Please tell me you Brits haven't taken to calling that "zee"; you'd break the heart of the Canadians, who still call it zed (as do the Germans, the Russians, and the French). But a more recent cultural influence on Britain was the French culture of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, and the French wrote things like "civilisation" with callous disregard for the classical world.

Note added: The spell checker on this site sneaked in and corrected my spelling there. I had to edit again and get very severe with it.
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:02 am

Poodle wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:59 am
Part of the real meaning of democracy is the freedom to sometimes make stupendous cock-ups. Not that I think either Trump or Brexit is one of those - yet.
I agree. ..... but I think the real meaning of democracy also allows for the correction of those cock-ups as soon as possible. There is no LOGICAL basis to prevent continuing referendums as the population desires. That is indeed ...........................freedom.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:35 am

The EU Commission has issued a statement saying Brexit can be put off until July if necessary, thus displaying their blatant hypocrisy for all to see. Mrs May will jump at that one, I predict.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:43 am

Poodle wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:35 am
The EU Commission has issued a statement saying Brexit can be put off until July if necessary, thus displaying their blatant hypocrisy for all to see. Mrs May will jump at that one, I predict.
So, yet another antepenultimatum. I don't think the British public is going to like this, not that I have my finger on the pulse of British opinion.
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

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Re: Brexit

Post by ElectricMonk » Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:33 pm

Poodle wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:35 am
The EU Commission has issued a statement saying Brexit can be put off until July if necessary, thus displaying their blatant hypocrisy for all to see. Mrs May will jump at that one, I predict.
I fail to see how this is anything but a nice gesture to give the UK a bit more time to get its act together.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:31 pm

Unfortunately, EM, the niceness is a bit late. It would have been nice to extend the negotiation period (as they were asked to do) instead of forcing the issue in the expectation of a capitulation. It would have been nice if they had inserted the limitation of the duration of the Irish backstop into the proposal rather than sending a letter (received today) which they claim has legal force (no, it doesn't). The Commission doesn't do nice.
It's purely and simply because they know damn well that Mrs May is going to lose tomorrow's vote.
In any case, there's no act to get together ... we had a referendum and the result was to leave. We have put forward a leaving plan which has been approved by the Commission. It has not yet been approved by Parliament, and that's what will or will not happen in the vote tomorrow. If it's voted down (which is a 99.9999999999999999999% certainty), we will leave the EU on the already-agreed date, there will be no Irish backstop and we will be £39 billion better off.
Unless, of course, something happens between now and tomorrow.
Last edited by Poodle on Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:49 pm

Poodle wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:35 am
The EU Commission has issued a statement saying Brexit can be put off until July if necessary, thus displaying their blatant hypocrisy for all to see. Mrs May will jump at that one, I predict.
Seems to me "nice" is compared to other "worse" things the EU could do RIGHT NOW.....NOT what they could have done months ago.

You know........corrupting words to match your political views: leads to all kinds of problems.....in addition to retardation.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:23 pm

So which comes first?

Actual for real no kidding Brexit or the collapse of the EU?

Also, will bookmakers in the UK offer odds on that?
Aldous Huxley wrote:A government with a comprehensive plan for the betterment of society is a government that uses torture.

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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:44 pm

I've never thought EU would work. Too much history/diversity with greed always a countervailing factor. Some arrangements that benefit all parties: sure. Arrangements that put the hurt on groups of people?..........like having to pay your loans back? No, no, that will never work long term, absent being conquered and absorbed Borg Style. Thats putting the "FU" in the EU.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Darren Wilshak » Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:24 pm

All that lying and cheating by leave finally pays off then?

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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:00 pm

?

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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:36 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:23 pm
So which comes first?

Actual for real no kidding Brexit or the collapse of the EU?

Also, will bookmakers in the UK offer odds on that?
Oh, I think Brexit comes first - in fact, by the end of March. And, seriously, there is a lot of commentary on the potential collapse of the EU. I certainly think it has to change - and soon - and the deepest change has to be the abandonment of the idea of federation. But I can't find any bookie giving odds on it. Yet.

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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:06 am

Poodle: Would the EU collapse.......or just constrict giving up the idea of Federation? When I posted I never thought the EU would work, I was defining the EU as a Very Strong Federation....exact details left vague. Lots of benefits to Big Large Strong Cohesive SOLVENT Federations....just one step below a single nation entity? Ha, ha........"confederates".....have never done well in History. Has the terrain changed?
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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:41 am

The EU Commission (not the elected Euro politicians nor the representatives of democratic governments, but civil servants with chips on their shoulders) are the ones pushing deep federal ideas. They may be good ideas for Germany, France and, possibly, Italy (although not in its present condition). I do not think there is great support for the idea of a United States of Europe anywhere else - in fact, it tends to be regarded with deep suspicion. The USA started virtually from scratch (and even then had a problem or two) - definitely not the case in Europe where linguistic, cultural and historical differences are still strong drivers of opinion.
Given that, it was only a matter of time before Brits began to be uncomfortable with the situation. Today will decide if that discomfort (assuming the economic scaremongering can be ignored) outweighs anything else. But the Brits are NOT the only ones with suspicions. There is a lot of opposition all around Europe. It isn't simply a matter of government. Imagine a European Army (yes, it has been seriously mooted) - it's difficult enough having joint exercises. The Euro is already a creaking currency, and I don't think it's ever going to stabilise. Etc. etc., etc.

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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:59 am

It still AMAZES ME.............how much USA HISTORY, has been lost, or really has been covered up with the intent to erase: The “The United States in Congress Assembled” under “Articles of Confederation”. The Central government was so distrusted it was designed to be too weak to do anything. Dissolved after 8 years and now: George Washington gets credit as our first President. EIGHT YEARS OF HISTORY: poof.

Every democracy loving person should read up on that experiment in Confederation. It is a strong example of what happens when local interests retain too much control.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:26 am

OK - today is big vote day, Several possibilities ...
a) May loses the vote big-style and resigns.
b) May wins the vote and dances all the way back to Number 10.
c) May loses the vote, doesn't resign, and has three days to come up with Plan B.
d) May loses the vote, doesn't resign, and has three days to come up with Plan B but the EU Commission point out that it's Plan A or nothing.
e) May loses the vote, doesn't resign, but faces an immediate vote of no confidence.
f) May loses the vote and scraps Brexit altogether. The UK undergoes a revolution in which Parliament is sacked by rabid hordes of Brexiteers.
g) May loses the vote and immediately declares a no-deal Brexit.
h) Boris Johnson stages a coup - he's the only person who may actually want this job.

We'll know by this evening.

EDIT: Whoops! Missed one ...
i) The Article 50 deadline (that's the point at which we have to have made up our minds or face immediate exit with no deal at all) is extended by agreement with the EU Commission. Now that I've remembered it, it seems the most likely course.
Last edited by Poodle on Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:44 am, edited 2 times in total.