Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

What you think about how you think.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist
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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:19 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:45 pm
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Please copy and paste where Klinko, or anyone other than yourself, has posted about increasing the pain threshold.

4) That means there is no guiding going on.
No copy and paste Matt. ..........because.............Klinko never said such things. Matt: you really do need to follow what is actually said and not mischaracterize it as you do.

Personally, I agree, about Five Times now, that "guiding" is the wrong term to use..........and I think Oleg has most accurately described what the evolutionary mechanism is. We are all saying the same thing, with different precision/fidelity to the dictionary in the words we use. And for the FIFTH TIME again: no where does "consciousness" of pain or anything else enter into the discussion until CRSIPR was developed.........well.........until Mendel with his peas?
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Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:26 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: No copy and paste Matt. ..........because.............Klinko never said such things.
You are an idiot Bobbo. I have been quoting from Klinko's original claims on his Inter mind website and have done so since this thread started. You haven't read it. Klinko is trying to change what his claim is.

http://www.theintermind.com/

Now go run away and play with Tom Palven
:lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:21 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:26 am
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: No copy and paste Matt. ..........because.............Klinko never said such things.
You are an idiot Bobbo. I have been quoting from Klinko's original claims on his Inter mind website and have done so since this thread started.
You don't have the credibility for me to believe that, the very reason I am asking you to copy and paste. If you have already done that earlier in this long thread........should be very easy for you to do so.
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:26 am
You haven't read it.
Thats true. But I've read enough of you.
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:26 am
Klinko is trying to change what his claim is.
That could well be the case. Time passes, ideas change, memory fades, poor word choice always possible. Thats why an actual copy and paste quote would be helpful rather than your proven dubious reportage.
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:26 am
Now go run away and play with Tom Palven
TP has been direct and responsive on several of my challenges. You could learn from him.
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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:41 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: You don't have the credibility for me .........
Bobbo, I don't care what you think or don't think. You are the idiot who claims to have fought in the Yom Kippur War while serving in the USAF. The USA didn't fight in the Yom Kippur War.

You are just another boring 75 year old like Tom Palven, Norma Blum and Gorgeous seeking attention on a forum, with nothing to add.
:lol: :lol:

At least Norma had the decency of dying of old age rather than continue to seek attention with nothing, like you do. :lol: :lol:

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:27 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:41 pm
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: You don't have the credibility for me .........
Bobbo, I don't care what you think or don't think. You are the idiot who claims to have fought in the Yom Kippur War while serving in the USAF. The USA didn't fight in the Yom Kippur War.

You are just another boring 75 year old like Tom Palven, Norma Blum and Gorgeous seeking attention on a forum, with nothing to add.
:lol: :lol:

At least Norma had the decency of dying of old age rather than continue to seek attention with nothing, like you do. :lol: :lol:
Matt.........whats with you?...........YOU provided the link in the other thread re handbaskets to the Nickle Grass Operation where the USA provided war materiel to Israel during Yom Kippur. but then.........you OBVIOUSLY ALSO DID NOT read the 1917 Espionage Act you love to make reference to as if it was relevant...............and yet contradictorially, you claim to know the contents of sealed documents issued in the Assange case.

Just what kind of nutball are you?..........its...........all.......ego.............right?

1-2-3 such slip ups even without recognition or apology can be absorbed. your CONSTANT mishcharacterizations.........cannot be.

Proud to say I'm younger than 75 (always the youngest person in every group I ever was in....parents started me in school 18 months early)......so, I say with great affection: grow up. Become a better version, if not the best version, of yourself.
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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:31 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Matt.........whats with you?...........
Nothing Bobbo. This thread is for making fun of Steve Klinko's religious claim.

You seem to have the same problem as Norma Blum and want to make the thread about you. I have no interest in you other than to quickly show holes in your claims when you interrupt a thread.

The USA did not fight in the Yom Kippur War. You did not read the Espionage Act (1917). You have not read Steve Klinko's Inter mind "manifesto" that I have been quoting from.

Now go away and play with Tom Palven . You two have a lot in common (early senility) .
:lol: :lol:

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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jan 13, 2019 6:33 am

Constant mischaracterization, fabrication, and refusal to answer direct questions.

I withdraw.
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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by SteveKlinko » Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:35 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:12 am
SteveKlinko wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:24 pm
3) Therefore a Conscious Experience can affect or guide Evolutionary outcomes.

Where is the Religion in that?
Which of the items do you disagree with?
.....guide.....
It's like the Tracks Guiding the Train. No Religion needed. The Tracks know nothing and the Train knows nothing but the Tracks Guide the Train nevertheless.

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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by SteveKlinko » Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:48 pm

Poodle wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:16 am
SteveKlinko wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:24 pm
Poodle wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:09 am
This thing has gone on for far too long. On the one hand, we have Steve who says that his self-proclaimed view of Enid Blyton evolution cannot be false whilst, on the other hand, we have everyone else and their dogs and cats pointing out the outsize errors in Steve's logic. Steve is using dogma (which he thinks is philosophy) whilst everyone else is trying to use logical arguments. It's never worked against god-botherers of any kind and, I'm afraid, Steve is merely another god-botherer although, admittedly, with a novel presentation.
For how long has Gorgeous been here? That's a very similar situation. Steve will continue to sit tight upon his fantasies and everyone else will become frustrated at his intransigence. It has all become pointless.
Because you insist to Lie and say that what I say is Religious, let me repeat what I actually have said.

It's a simple 3 step chain of logic:

1) The experience of Pain increases survival rates.
2) Increased survival rates will affect Evolutionary outcomes.
3) Therefore a Conscious Experience can affect or guide Evolutionary outcomes.

Where is the Religion in that?
Which of the items do you disagree with?
I've said before, Steve, that you are not reading replies to the point of comprehension. I may have used the term 'pseudo-religious'. That does not mean 'religious'. So where's the lie? Your entire 'theory' is conjectural and based upon a misunderstanding of evolution and human physiology. How could I lie about that?
Here's what I said:
Because you insist to Lie and say that what I say is Religious ...

You said I am a god-botherer. Where is the Religion in the above 3 statements? Do you even know the definition of god-botherer?

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by SteveKlinko » Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:54 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:21 am
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:45 pm
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Please copy and paste where Klinko, or anyone other than yourself, has posted about increasing the pain threshold.
You really aren't getting this are you.

1) A creature that feels a level of pain already has evolved the genes that feel that level of pain, which means it is neutral to the species survival in the environment.
2) Steve Klinko claims the feeling of pain "guides" evolution.
3) I gave examples where both an evolved reduced feeling of pain and an evolved increased feeling pain offer evolutionary advantages
4) That means there is no guiding going on.

Try keep up.
Pain motivates avoidance behaviour. The critters that are better at avoiding pain causing phenomena have a better chance at reproducing. Avoidance behaviour is selected for. Pain is the messenger that this is something to stay away from.

Steve's tail is wagging his dog.
So in a manner of speaking Pain is a Guiding force in the Evolution of these Critters. Good observation.

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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by Poodle » Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:12 pm

So, in a manner of speaking, pain is whatever you want it to be. You cannot continue making such declarations.

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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by SteveKlinko » Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:21 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 6:33 am
Constant mischaracterization, fabrication, and refusal to answer direct questions.

I withdraw.
I understand your frustration. It is difficult to have a conversation with Ellard because of the Lies. He literally modifies what I wrote and posts replies to his Vandalized versions of what I wrote. I can't believe he spends so much time doing this kind of thing. He has denigrated some of the older people just for being old. He seems to have the maturity of someone in Grade school. I'm waiting for him to grow up, but it isn't happening. He always gets stuck in Shallow thought streams. He needs to think Deeper about things. But that's just my opinion.

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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by SteveKlinko » Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:23 pm

Poodle wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:12 pm
So, in a manner of speaking, pain is whatever you want it to be. You cannot continue making such declarations.
Where did I change the meaning of what Pain is? What are you talking about?

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:43 am

SteveKlinko wrote: So in a manner of speaking Pain is a Guiding force in the Evolution of these Critters. Good observation.
No. We gave you clear evolutionary examples where a future evolved reduction of pain or an future evolved increase in pain would offer a species different evolutionary advantages in future environments. That negates your religious claim that existing evolved pain thresholds is a "guiding" force as it goes both ways.

If a bear had dark brown fur that was good camouflage for its current environment and the environment changed to a lighter wheat colour, if future mutations allowed a light brown fur to evolve, that does not mean that dark brown hair guided evolution, does it? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Go away and stop posting until you have read some basic books on the mechanisms of evolution.
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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:48 am

SteveKlinko wrote: It is difficult to have a conversation with Ellard because of the Lies.
Nope. It is difficult for you to understand my posts because you refuse to read any science book on evolution.

It is like me trying to explain, to you, a caveman, how a steam engine works.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by Poodle » Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:52 am

A steam engine works by constant reference to the Great Steam Engine Knowledge Repository in the Sky. Isn't that so, Steve?

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by SteveKlinko » Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:01 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:43 am
SteveKlinko wrote: So in a manner of speaking Pain is a Guiding force in the Evolution of these Critters. Good observation.
No. We gave you clear evolutionary examples where a future evolved reduction of pain or an future evolved increase in pain would offer a species different evolutionary advantages in future environments. That negates your religious claim that existing evolved pain thresholds is a "guiding" force as it goes both ways.

If a bear had dark brown fur that was good camouflage for its current environment and the environment changed to a lighter wheat colour, if future mutations allowed a light brown fur to evolve, that does not mean that dark brown hair guided evolution, does it? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Go away and stop posting until you have read some basic books on the mechanisms of evolution.
Evolution for dummies.jpg
When you say that the reduction of Pain or the increases of Pain would offer different Evolutionary advantages in future environments, you are admitting that the very existence of the Conscious Experience of Pain can affect Evolutionary outcomes.

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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by SteveKlinko » Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:05 am

Poodle wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:52 am
A steam engine works by constant reference to the Great Steam Engine Knowledge Repository in the Sky. Isn't that so, Steve?
I would say Not so to that. Next question please.

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Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:03 am

SteveKlinko wrote: When you say that the reduction of Pain or the increases of Pain would offer different Evolutionary advantages in future environments, you are admitting that the very existence of the Conscious Experience of Pain can affect Evolutionary outcomes.
Why are you so stupid and ignorant?

New genes are random mutations. Conscious experiences do not create particular genes that do one thing or the other. (debunked Lamarckism) We have told you this over and over again and you still can't understand this basic fact and you still refuse to read any science book on evolution. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Go away and stop posting until you read one basic science book on the mechanisms of evolution.

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Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:12 am

Recapping Steve Klinko's ridiculous arguments so far
SteveKlinko made stupid claim No1 and wrote: If Pain does not have any affect on Evolutionary Outcomes then why would Pain ever Evolve?
The skeptics laughed and wrote:"toe nails must direct and guide evolution otherwise why did we evolve toe nails" "Brown hair must direct and guide evolution otherwise why did we evolve brown hair?"
///////////////////////////////////////
SteveKlinko made stupid claim No2 and wrote: If it was Painful to grow toenails and hair we would not have any today..
The skeptics laughed again and wrote:I see.......... so women stopped having babies because of the pain? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
///////////////////////////////////////////
SteveKlinko made stupid claim No3 and wrote: There has been no coherent argument that shows how Pain has no affect on Evolutionary outcomes.
The skeptics laughed again and wrote: You have now failed 10 times to show how pain, that has already evolved, can "direct" and "guide" evolution as you claimed. When will you show us how your magic form of evolution works?
//////////////////////////////////////////////
SteveKlinko made stupid claim No4 and wrote: Consciously feeling pain and moving away from a fire obviously increases survival and therefore consciousness guides evolution.
The skeptics laughed again and wrote: A tiger's evolved camouflage stripes helps hide the tiger and increase its survival so do you claim a tiger's camoflage stripes guides evolution? :lol: :lol: :lol:

This thread is pure comedy now. :mrgreen:

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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:01 am

SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:21 pm
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 6:33 am
Constant mischaracterization, fabrication, and refusal to answer direct questions.

I withdraw.
I understand your frustration. It is difficult to have a conversation with Ellard because of the Lies. He literally modifies what I wrote and posts replies to his Vandalized versions of what I wrote. I can't believe he spends so much time doing this kind of thing. He has denigrated some of the older people just for being old. He seems to have the maturity of someone in Grade school. I'm waiting for him to grow up, but it isn't happening. He always gets stuck in Shallow thought streams. He needs to think Deeper about things. But that's just my opinion.
No its not. ...........but..............Matts not always wrong. My experience intially was that he was mostly correct: he chooses woo's and deniers as his favorite targets. YMMV. Matt just never corrects himself so that when he is wrong, he just keeps his barrel rolling on. Its a habit pattern too common in people who are accustomed to being correct ........and not corrected. You see this a lot in this forum. It is also most common in people who refuse to answer direct questions. Another very damaging habit pattern to fall into.

Mind the gap.
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