Killing method in each camp?

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Killing method in each camp?

Post by Oozy_Substance » Tue Aug 07, 2018 7:03 am

Is it known what was the killing method for each one of the death camps? (Zyklon B / Gas Vans / Tank Engine / etc)
I know it was Zyklon B for Auschwitz and Majdanek and I know a tank engine was used in Treblinka. What about the other camps? (Belzec, Sobibor, Maly Trostenets, Chelmno and also Jasenovac).

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Re: Killing method in each camp?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Aug 07, 2018 11:26 am

Oozy_Substance wrote:Is it known what was the killing method for each one of the death camps? (Zyklon B / Gas Vans / Tank Engine / etc)
I know it was Zyklon B for Auschwitz and Majdanek and I know a tank engine was used in Treblinka. What about the other camps? (Belzec, Sobibor, Maly Trostenets, Chelmno and also Jasenovac).
Majdanek - not exactly. At Majdanek there were gas chambers outfitted for both Zyklon B and CO (from bottles, not engine exhaust). Pressac says that the Zyklon B chamber was probably not used, although there is contrary evidence. There is also (confusing and inconclusive) evidence for use of a gas van. The others:

Belzec - engine exhaust (presumably petrol)
Sobibor - petrol engine exhaust (differing testimonies on engine maker)
Treblinka - petrol engine exhaust
Chelmno - gas van (petrol engine exhaust)
Maly Trostenets - gas vans (petrol engine exhaust to best of my knowledge)
Jasenovac - this camp was not a German camp but rather run by the Croatian Ustaha - beating and hacking prisoners to death and shootings were the main forms of execution; there are some testimonies about gassing (and IIRC a reference to Zyklon B) but gas, whilst it seems to have been used on occasion, was not the principle method of murder
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Re: Killing method in each camp?

Post by Oozy_Substance » Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:57 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Oozy_Substance wrote:Is it known what was the killing method for each one of the death camps? (Zyklon B / Gas Vans / Tank Engine / etc)
I know it was Zyklon B for Auschwitz and Majdanek and I know a tank engine was used in Treblinka. What about the other camps? (Belzec, Sobibor, Maly Trostenets, Chelmno and also Jasenovac).
Majdanek - not exactly. At Majdanek there were gas chambers outfitted for both Zyklon B and CO (from bottles, not engine exhaust). Pressac says that the Zyklon B chamber was probably not used, although there is contrary evidence. There is also (confusing and inconclusive) evidence for use of a gas van. The others:

Belzec - engine exhaust (presumably petrol)
Sobibor - petrol engine exhaust (differing testimonies on engine maker)
Treblinka - petrol engine exhaust
Chelmno - gas van (petrol engine exhaust)
Maly Trostenets - gas vans (petrol engine exhaust to best of my knowledge)
Jasenovac - this camp was not a German camp but rather run by the Croatian Ustaha - beating and hacking prisoners to death and shootings were the main forms of execution; there are some testimonies about gassing (and IIRC a reference to Zyklon B) but gas, whilst it seems to have been used on occasion, was not the principle method of murder
I know that Haimi unearthed 6 to 8 gas chambers in Sobibor. Were they connected to an engine or maybe multiple engines?

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Re: Killing method in each camp?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:06 pm

I'm not an expert. I've read 4 or 5 of Haimi's reports and don't recall any discussion of engines. PDFs of Haiti's reports are online; you could read through them. Or maybe someone who has studied this more closely can provide a better reply.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Killing method in each camp?

Post by Aaron Richards » Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:22 pm

Has it been established whether the preferred gassing method at Majdanek was Zyklon-B or canisters of Carbon Monoxide?
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Re: Killing method in each camp?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:54 pm

Sorry my reply to Oozy was not clear. The general view, following Pressac and Kranz, is that CO was the main (or only) gassing method. This is also discussed at some length if I recall correctly in the Majdanek thread. I'm pretty sure (I'd have to check some notes on this) that the number of testimonies giving CO as a killing method is about the same as the number giving Zyklon B. OTOH my recollection is also that the most detailed descriptions are for CO gassing.

My guesstimates: More Jews who perished at Majdanek died from shooting or disease/hardship than by means of CO or Zyklon B, perhaps 15,000 (my estimate) gassed out of 59,000 deaths (I don't recall anyone - other than BROI/Graf misquoting Kranz 12,000 and the USHMM 25,000 - giving an estimate for the number gassed). More than 20,000, including Erntefest, were shot; slightly more (?) dying from disease/hardship. Some additional non-Jewish prisoners (1,000?) were also gassed; this is very murky.
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Re: Killing method in each camp?

Post by Balmoral95 » Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:48 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:I'm not an expert. I've read 4 or 5 of Haimi's reports and don't recall any discussion of engines. PDFs of Haiti's reports are online; you could read through them. Or maybe someone who has studied this more closely can provide a better reply.
Haimi didn't speak about details regarding gassing methods that I recall but there's plenty of other info available.

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Re: Killing method in each camp?

Post by Balmoral95 » Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:52 am

Oozy_Substance wrote:Is it known what was the killing method for each one of the death camps? (Zyklon B / Gas Vans / Tank Engine / etc)
I know it was Zyklon B for Auschwitz and Majdanek and I know a tank engine was used in Treblinka. What about the other camps? (Belzec, Sobibor, Maly Trostenets, Chelmno and also Jasenovac).
Here's a start:

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... caust.html

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Re: Killing method in each camp?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Aug 08, 2018 2:38 am

The OP and discussion felt familiar. So I searched through old threads. We've been through a lot of this previously:
-Auschwitz 1942-1944 1 million Zyklon-B in 5 crematoria, 2 ‘bunkers’
-Treblinka 1942-1943 780,000 10 petrol exhaust gas chambers
-Belzec 1942 434,000 6 petrol exhaust gas chambers
-Sobibor 1942-3 200,000 6 petrol exhaust gas chambers
-Chelmno 1941-2, 1944 152,000 3 petrol exhaust gas vans
-Majdanek 1942-44 59,000 1 Zyklon B/CO gas chambers, mass shootings
-Maly Trostinets, Minsk 1942 50,000 2-3 petrol exhaust gas vans
-Semlin, Belgrade 1942 17,000 2 petrol exhaust gas vans
Nick Terry's list (Jasenovac not on the list, as discussed above)
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Re: Killing method in each camp?

Post by Balmoral95 » Wed Aug 08, 2018 3:29 am

Oozy_Substance wrote:Is it known what was the killing method for each one of the death camps? (Zyklon B / Gas Vans / Tank Engine / etc)
I know it was Zyklon B for Auschwitz and Majdanek and I know a tank engine was used in Treblinka. What about the other camps? (Belzec, Sobibor, Maly Trostenets, Chelmno and also Jasenovac).
Let's do this another way:
Is it known what was the killing method for each one of the death camps? (Zyklon B / Gas Vans / Tank Engine / etc)"
Why, yes, yes it is. How come you don't know after 350+ posts in this forum?
I know it was Zyklon B for Auschwitz and Majdanek and I know a tank engine was used in Treblinka. What about the other camps? (Belzec, Sobibor, Maly Trostenets, Chelmno and also Jasenovac).
Well then you don't know shite: Got 30% right. Fail.
I know a tank engine was used in Treblinka
How do you "know this"? No one else does.

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Re: Killing method in each camp?

Post by Oozy_Substance » Wed Aug 08, 2018 5:33 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:The OP and discussion felt familiar. So I searched through old threads. We've been through a lot of this previously:
-Auschwitz 1942-1944 1 million Zyklon-B in 5 crematoria, 2 ‘bunkers’
-Treblinka 1942-1943 780,000 10 petrol exhaust gas chambers
-Belzec 1942 434,000 6 petrol exhaust gas chambers
-Sobibor 1942-3 200,000 6 petrol exhaust gas chambers
-Chelmno 1941-2, 1944 152,000 3 petrol exhaust gas vans
-Majdanek 1942-44 59,000 1 Zyklon B/CO gas chambers, mass shootings
-Maly Trostinets, Minsk 1942 50,000 2-3 petrol exhaust gas vans
-Semlin, Belgrade 1942 17,000 2 petrol exhaust gas vans
Nick Terry's list (Jasenovac not on the list, as discussed above)
Yeah, sorry, my bad. I remembered it was brought to discussion at some point, but I didn't remember the details too much.

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Re: Killing method in each camp?

Post by Oozy_Substance » Wed Aug 08, 2018 5:34 am

Balmoral95 wrote:
I know a tank engine was used in Treblinka
How do you "know this"? No one else does.
Isn't it well established that it was a tank engine? This is according to Suchomel and other testimonies, IIRC. Wikipedia also states the same.

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Re: Killing method in each camp?

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:47 am

Oozy_Substance wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:
I know a tank engine was used in Treblinka
How do you "know this"? No one else does.
Isn't it well established that it was a tank engine? This is according to Suchomel and other testimonies, IIRC. Wikipedia also states the same.
It isn’t clear what it was, Oozy.
For Treblinka the key testimony is that of a guard Nikolay Shalayev, who was one of the infamous Treblinka "motorists" (he is often mentioned in testimonies together with Ivan "The Terrible" Marchenko, usually as "Ivan and Nikolay" or "Ivan and Mykola") and who obviously knew the engine he himself operated:
It was an ordinary, four-cylinder engine which used gasoline and, according to the story, of the German machine operator, was of Russian make. The engine was installed on a wooden frame and started as soon as people were herded into the gas chamber rooms, whereupon the exhaust pipe was covered up and the valve of the pipe was opened, through which the exhaust entered the "bath".[22]
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... 2.html?m=1
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Killing method in each camp?

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:51 am

If I get a minute I’ll track down “Into that Darkness” and see what Stangl has to say.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Killing method in each camp?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Aug 08, 2018 12:14 pm

Oozy_Substance wrote:Yeah, sorry, my bad. I remembered it was brought to discussion at some point, but I didn't remember the details too much.
bookmarks can be your friend :)
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Re: Killing method in each camp?

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Aug 08, 2018 12:20 pm

Just remember to customize your bookmarks. I have about 15 that I have no idea what they are anymore.

That’s sad, I shouldn’t admit those things.

:D
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Killing method in each camp?

Post by Balmoral95 » Sun Aug 12, 2018 5:05 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:If I get a minute I’ll track down “Into that Darkness” and see what Stangl has to say.
not much.

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Re: Killing method in each camp?

Post by Denying-History » Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:48 am

Oozy_Substance wrote:Is it known what was the killing method for each one of the death camps? (Zyklon B / Gas Vans / Tank Engine / etc)
I know it was Zyklon B for Auschwitz and Majdanek and I know a tank engine was used in Treblinka. What about the other camps? (Belzec, Sobibor, Maly Trostenets, Chelmno and also Jasenovac).
Quick note on Jasenovac, from what I know gassing only 1 or 2 were carried out at Stara Gradiška prison. Only around 63-500 children were gassed from what I can make out and according to a May 2, 1998 article in the NYT some 1,200 victims were gassed in makeshift gas-vans made from police wagons. Although I found some testimonies from survivors suggesting gassings happened in the tower of the camp but from memory after buying some books on the matter I think these claims can be rejected.

For those interested here are the testimonies I have related to the gassing in the camp:
Ante Vrban wrote:Concerning the liquidation of children, I know that there were quite a number of children in the camp, and a certain medical committee which included Ensign Ilija Bukovac and Dr. Buki Kunorti, had the task of selecting healthy children who were transported to Zagreb, Sisak, Jaska and Feričanci. During examination, the committee found 63 sick children and proposed that they should be liquidated. The camp supervisor Mile Orešković ordered me and Grubišić to carry out the liquidation of the selected children. Janko Grubišić proposed that we strangle the children, but when he walked among the children, he was disgusted, so then we ordered the children to be liquidated using gas. On that occasion, all 63 children were liquidated in one room.
http://www.jusp-jasenovac.hr/Default.aspx?sid=7265
Gjordana Diedlender wrote:At that time fresh women and children came daily to the Camp at Strara Gradiska. About fourteen days later, Ante Vrban ordered all children to be separated from their mothers and put in one room. Ten of us were told to carry them there in blankets. The children crawled around the room, and one child put an arm and leg through the doorway, so that the door could not be closed. Vrban shouted, “Push it!” When I did not do that, he banged the door and crushed the child's leg. Then he took the child by its whole leg, and banged it on the wall till it was dead. After that we continued carrying children in. When the room was full, Vrban brought poison gas and killed them all.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
Joseph E. Davies

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Re: Killing method in each camp?

Post by Denying-History » Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:52 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:If I get a minute I’ll track down “Into that Darkness” and see what Stangl has to say.
Don't beleve Stangl said anything of the engine type.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
Joseph E. Davies

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Re: Killing method in each camp?

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Aug 12, 2018 2:28 pm

Denying-History wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:If I get a minute I’ll track down “Into that Darkness” and see what Stangl has to say.
Don't beleve Stangl said anything of the engine type.

Thanks, been busy all weekend and didn’t get a chance to drag it out.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Killing method in each camp?

Post by Balmoral95 » Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:06 am

Denying-History wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:If I get a minute I’ll track down “Into that Darkness” and see what Stangl has to say.
Don't beleve Stangl said anything of the engine type.
That book has pretty much been relegated to the ash heap of history in so far as a contribution to the topic at hand.

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Re: Killing method in each camp?

Post by Darren Wilshak » Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:32 pm

Balmoral95 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:If I get a minute I’ll track down “Into that Darkness” and see what Stangl has to say.
not much.
'I wasn't up there...' probably. As I recall he couldn't handle seeing what was going on in the totenlager.

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Re: Killing method in each camp?

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:42 pm

I didn’t get a chance to dig the book up last weekend, I’ll try this weekend.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Killing method in each camp?

Post by Balmoral95 » Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:57 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:I didn’t get a chance to dig the book up last weekend, I’ll try this weekend.
And what is Stangl ? Go back to books, mate.

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Re: Killing method in each camp?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Nov 03, 2018 2:40 am

Denying-History wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:48 am
Oozy_Substance wrote:Is it known what was the killing method for each one of the death camps? (Zyklon B / Gas Vans / Tank Engine / etc)
I know it was Zyklon B for Auschwitz and Majdanek and I know a tank engine was used in Treblinka. What about the other camps? (Belzec, Sobibor, Maly Trostenets, Chelmno and also Jasenovac).
Quick note on Jasenovac, from what I know gassing only 1 or 2 were carried out at Stara Gradiška prison. Only around 63-500 children were gassed from what I can make out and according to a May 2, 1998 article in the NYT some 1,200 victims were gassed in makeshift gas-vans made from police wagons. Although I found some testimonies from survivors suggesting gassings happened in the tower of the camp but from memory after buying some books on the matter I think these claims can be rejected.

For those interested here are the testimonies I have related to the gassing in the camp:
Ante Vrban wrote:Concerning the liquidation of children, I know that there were quite a number of children in the camp, and a certain medical committee which included Ensign Ilija Bukovac and Dr. Buki Kunorti, had the task of selecting healthy children who were transported to Zagreb, Sisak, Jaska and Feričanci. During examination, the committee found 63 sick children and proposed that they should be liquidated. The camp supervisor Mile Orešković ordered me and Grubišić to carry out the liquidation of the selected children. Janko Grubišić proposed that we strangle the children, but when he walked among the children, he was disgusted, so then we ordered the children to be liquidated using gas. On that occasion, all 63 children were liquidated in one room.
http://www.jusp-jasenovac.hr/Default.aspx?sid=7265
Gjordana Diedlender wrote:At that time fresh women and children came daily to the Camp at Strara Gradiska. About fourteen days later, Ante Vrban ordered all children to be separated from their mothers and put in one room. Ten of us were told to carry them there in blankets. The children crawled around the room, and one child put an arm and leg through the doorway, so that the door could not be closed. Vrban shouted, “Push it!” When I did not do that, he banged the door and crushed the child's leg. Then he took the child by its whole leg, and banged it on the wall till it was dead. After that we continued carrying children in. When the room was full, Vrban brought poison gas and killed them all.
Additional testimony:

Ruza Rupcic (a professor), on events at the camp at Bosanska Gradiska (part of the Stara Gradiska complex along the Sava River):
In the month of July [1942] the Ustashi assembled 2,000 children under the pretext that they were ill. They were closed, by turn, in a room and poisoned with cyanide.
quoted in Edmond Paris, Genocide in Satellite Croatia, 1941-1945, p 130
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Re: Killing method in each camp?

Post by Denying-History » Sun Nov 04, 2018 3:03 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 2:40 am
Denying-History wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:48 am
Oozy_Substance wrote:Is it known what was the killing method for each one of the death camps? (Zyklon B / Gas Vans / Tank Engine / etc)
I know it was Zyklon B for Auschwitz and Majdanek and I know a tank engine was used in Treblinka. What about the other camps? (Belzec, Sobibor, Maly Trostenets, Chelmno and also Jasenovac).
Quick note on Jasenovac, from what I know gassing only 1 or 2 were carried out at Stara Gradiška prison. Only around 63-500 children were gassed from what I can make out and according to a May 2, 1998 article in the NYT some 1,200 victims were gassed in makeshift gas-vans made from police wagons. Although I found some testimonies from survivors suggesting gassings happened in the tower of the camp but from memory after buying some books on the matter I think these claims can be rejected.

For those interested here are the testimonies I have related to the gassing in the camp:
Ante Vrban wrote:Concerning the liquidation of children, I know that there were quite a number of children in the camp, and a certain medical committee which included Ensign Ilija Bukovac and Dr. Buki Kunorti, had the task of selecting healthy children who were transported to Zagreb, Sisak, Jaska and Feričanci. During examination, the committee found 63 sick children and proposed that they should be liquidated. The camp supervisor Mile Orešković ordered me and Grubišić to carry out the liquidation of the selected children. Janko Grubišić proposed that we strangle the children, but when he walked among the children, he was disgusted, so then we ordered the children to be liquidated using gas. On that occasion, all 63 children were liquidated in one room.
http://www.jusp-jasenovac.hr/Default.aspx?sid=7265
Gjordana Diedlender wrote:At that time fresh women and children came daily to the Camp at Strara Gradiska. About fourteen days later, Ante Vrban ordered all children to be separated from their mothers and put in one room. Ten of us were told to carry them there in blankets. The children crawled around the room, and one child put an arm and leg through the doorway, so that the door could not be closed. Vrban shouted, “Push it!” When I did not do that, he banged the door and crushed the child's leg. Then he took the child by its whole leg, and banged it on the wall till it was dead. After that we continued carrying children in. When the room was full, Vrban brought poison gas and killed them all.
Additional testimony:

Ruza Rupcic (a professor), on events at the camp at Bosanska Gradiska (part of the Stara Gradiska complex along the Sava River):
In the month of July [1942] the Ustashi assembled 2,000 children under the pretext that they were ill. They were closed, by turn, in a room and poisoned with cyanide.
quoted in Edmond Paris, Genocide in Satellite Croatia, 1941-1945, p 130
2,000 sounds like a bit too much, but yeah. Its definitly nice to see this as well.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: Killing method in each camp?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Nov 04, 2018 3:51 am

2,000 has to be an exaggeration, I agree.
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Re: Killing method in each camp?

Post by Sergey_Romanov » Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:12 am

> Auschwitz 1942-1944 1 million Zyklon-B in 5 crematoria, 2 ‘bunkers’

~800k

>-Sobibor 1942-3 200,000 6 petrol exhaust gas chambers

~150-180k