"Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:59 pm

Goody67 wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:41 pm
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:20 pm
People who say this generally have no concept of what National Socialism even was.
Say what?

The two paragraphs refute the argument that the Nazis were socialists.

It should be noted that there were some Nazis who were genuinely socialists and wanted the Nazi Party to be more left-wing.
I posted that Snopes article some time back.

The point is that the way Hitler defined “National Socialist” has very little to do with the way “Socialism” or “Communism” is conceived. While the Nazis kept many Socialist programs put into place by Weimar they excluded those they didn’t consider “German” or “Aryan.”
Also, Donald Trump is a clownfraud who only got involved in this for the attention.

Deadspin, 2014:
https://deadspin.com/there-are-just-two ... 1613879544

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:25 pm

What is a "Socialist program"?
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:46 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:25 pm
What is a "Socialist program"?
Probably a better way to say that is social insurance/social welfare programs. I sounded like a Republican for a minute, sorry about that.
Also, Donald Trump is a clownfraud who only got involved in this for the attention.

Deadspin, 2014:
https://deadspin.com/there-are-just-two ... 1613879544

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Gord » Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:56 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:25 pm
What is a "Socialist program"?
Surely it must be something running on CNN? :tease:
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Goody67 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:07 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:46 pm
Probably a better way to say that is social insurance/social welfare programs. I sounded like a Republican for a minute, sorry about that.
Many people confuse socialism with social insurance and social welfare programmes.
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:07 pm

Goody67 wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:07 pm
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:46 pm
Probably a better way to say that is social insurance/social welfare programs. I sounded like a Republican for a minute, sorry about that.
Many people confuse socialism with social insurance and social welfare programmes.
Agreed.
Also, Donald Trump is a clownfraud who only got involved in this for the attention.

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https://deadspin.com/there-are-just-two ... 1613879544

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:44 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:46 pm
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:25 pm
What is a "Socialist program"?
Probably a better way to say that is social insurance/social welfare programs. I sounded like a Republican for a minute, sorry about that.
phew! LOL (I thought that's what you meant and hoped it was! - the WaPo economics columnist made this conflation - social welfare = socialism - in a column this week, which insinuated that the Great Society would be like the Great Leap Forward . . . ugh)
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Balmoral95 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:55 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:44 pm
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:46 pm
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:25 pm
What is a "Socialist program"?
Probably a better way to say that is social insurance/social welfare programs. I sounded like a Republican for a minute, sorry about that.
phew! LOL (I thought that's what you meant and hoped it was! - the WaPo economics columnist made this conflation - social welfare = socialism - in a column this week, which insinuated that the Great Society would be like the Great Leap Forward . . . ugh)
Looking at things now, maybe it should've been :lol:

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:22 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:44 pm
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:46 pm
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:25 pm
What is a "Socialist program"?
Probably a better way to say that is social insurance/social welfare programs. I sounded like a Republican for a minute, sorry about that.
phew! LOL (I thought that's what you meant and hoped it was! - the WaPo economics columnist made this conflation - social welfare = socialism - in a column this week, which insinuated that the Great Society would be like the Great Leap Forward . . . ugh)
LOL, well, I’ll leave my original comment the way it is.
Also, Donald Trump is a clownfraud who only got involved in this for the attention.

Deadspin, 2014:
https://deadspin.com/there-are-just-two ... 1613879544

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:10 am

Far-right loons in US Congress trying (clumsily) to wield the "Hitler was a socialist" claim against Democrats: Two GOP lawmakers invoke Hitler to hammer Democrats
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Balmoral95 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:07 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:10 am
Far-right loons in US Congress trying (clumsily) to wield the "Hitler was a socialist" claim against Democrats: Two GOP lawmakers invoke Hitler to hammer Democrats
What's next for them: Uncle Joe was a private enterprise capitalist? :roll:

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:20 am

Balmoral95 wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:07 am
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:10 am
Far-right loons in US Congress trying (clumsily) to wield the "Hitler was a socialist" claim against Democrats: Two GOP lawmakers invoke Hitler to hammer Democrats
What's next for them: Uncle Joe was a private enterprise capitalist? :roll:
He also wanted to take your hamburgers away.
Also, Donald Trump is a clownfraud who only got involved in this for the attention.

Deadspin, 2014:
https://deadspin.com/there-are-just-two ... 1613879544

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:25 am

No worries, Reagan (whom my wife used to refer to as a mean-spirited deranged turtle) will ride in on a velociraptor firing rockets to save the burgers! (fun fact ... velociraptors were the size of turkeys - but Mr Lee showed Ronny's as a large and fearsome creature . . . )
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:41 am

Well, you can’t have Ronnie riding a turkey sized velociraptor....that would be un-American!!!!!!
Also, Donald Trump is a clownfraud who only got involved in this for the attention.

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https://deadspin.com/there-are-just-two ... 1613879544

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:16 pm

But funny as hell!
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by ElectricMonk » Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:41 pm

Probably off-topic, but the Onion has a gem of a story about Disney Nazi propaganda:

Image


https://entertainment.theonion.com/disn ... 1833665457

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Goody67 » Mon Apr 01, 2019 10:14 pm

'No room for the alien, no use for the wastrel'

This edited interview of Adolf Hitler by George Sylvester Viereck took place in 1923. It was republished in Liberty magazine in July 1932
"Why," I asked Hitler, "do you call yourself a National Socialist, since your party programme is the very antithesis of that commonly accredited to socialism?"

"Socialism," he retorted, putting down his cup of tea, pugnaciously, "is the science of dealing with the common weal. Communism is not Socialism. Marxism is not Socialism. The Marxians have stolen the term and confused its meaning. I shall take Socialism away from the Socialists.

"Socialism is an ancient Aryan, Germanic institution. Our German ancestors held certain lands in common. They cultivated the idea of the common weal. Marxism has no right to disguise itself as socialism. Socialism, unlike Marxism, does not repudiate private property. Unlike Marxism, it involves no negation of personality, and unlike Marxism, it is patriotic.

"We might have called ourselves the Liberal Party. We chose to call ourselves the National Socialists. We are not internationalists. Our socialism is national. We demand the fulfilment of the just claims of the productive classes by the state on the basis of race solidarity. To us state and race are one."
https://www.theguardian.com/theguardian ... nterviews1
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Gord » Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:42 am

...the never-before-seen shorts and feature-length works depict Americans as lazy, corrupt, and inferior to the morally upstanding German patriots....
Whoa. What a prophet! :lol:
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:08 pm

In a WaPo piece on Brazil's right-wing populist president, Jair Bolsonaro, history professor Federico Finchelstein (New School) reflects on Bolsonaro's claim that "Nazis were actually leftists" and "that people can forgive them for what they did." Finchelstein asks, "Why do populist leaders want to forgive or displace the actual history of Nazism? Because as these leaders draw from the well of fascist ideology, rhetoric and tactics, they have to neuter the history of fascism to normalize their politics." Same with D'Souza, I'd imagine.
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Balsamo » Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:53 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:08 pm
In a WaPo piece on Brazil's right-wing populist president, Jair Bolsonaro, history professor Federico Finchelstein (New School) reflects on Bolsonaro's claim that "Nazis were actually leftists" and "that people can forgive them for what they did." Finchelstein asks, "Why do populist leaders want to forgive or displace the actual history of Nazism? Because as these leaders draw from the well of fascist ideology, rhetoric and tactics, they have to neuter the history of fascism to normalize their politics." Same with D'Souza, I'd imagine.
Well, i have expressed myself already.
The confusion is also due to the acceptance that fascism or nazism are to be located to the far-right. Hence, the tendency of the far right to counter-attack by saying the contrary. Both are wrong conclusions of the same original mistake.
Historically, the far-right - which expressed himself within a Parliamentary system (hence his name) is a counter-revolutionary movement, ultra conservative and reactionary. In France, most were monarchists, and never recognized the Revolution and everything that came with it.

The association of the movements/political parties/Regimes which were defeated in 1945 is a post-war initiative, as we saw in France with the trial of Maurras, although he had nothing to do with the collaboration.
Of course, that does not mean that there were/are point in common, nor that there are no authentic Nazis nostalgic to be found in some traditional far-right movement, still it would be not only wrong but also misleading to assimilate broadly those movements based only on those points of convergence.

The same way, it is also a fact that there also point in common between fascist movement and pre-war revolutionary socialist parties (not to be confused with social democracies), just to state the obvious, their ambition to revolutionize society, when revolution is precisely what was hated by pre-war far fight movements. You know, "whatever breaks with the tradition is the mother of all social problems" theory.

Finchelstein is not helping clarifying things, but then i am not sure that clarifying the situation is much wanted, nor would it be very popular.

Populism is yet another concept, but i will leave it there. :lol:

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Wordbird » Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:25 am

Nazis has socialised medicine and it worked. (Somehow, even the most evil European regimes manage this...)

Understandable that it has right-winders foaming at the mouth.

Nazis were moderates, as far as left-right goes. Maybe slightly to the right.

If they were hard-left, they wouldn't have hated the Communists, but they did.

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:30 am

Balsamo wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:53 pm
Well, i have expressed myself already. . . .
Indeed you have.
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Balsamo » Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:29 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:30 am
Balsamo wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:53 pm
Well, i have expressed myself already. . . .
Indeed you have.
:lol:

I actually reacted because it was about Bolsonaro who while being the perfect representative of the traditional South American far right, has nothing to do with fascism or nazism. He is also famous for spitting a lot of BS which no one takes care about on every topics, a bit like your president. (more than a bit actually).

But although i have no longer access to the Wapo, i had read about Bolsonaro declaration in the Times of Israel.
article here:
Shockingly, he made this declaration when in Israel, following a visit at Yad Vashem.
But i could not help from :roll: (eyes rolling) :lol: when i read this: " It is widely accepted that Nazism was a far-right movement."

Provocatively, on could even say that in the perspective of South American traditional far rights, some measures taken by the Nazis could very well be viewed as "leftist". Bolsonaro is a evangelist***, promoting ultra economic liberalism, pro capitalist, privatize public companies, deregulate the economy, cutting public spendings, etc... Not really national socialist.

*** You wrote a very good post on the political influence of the evangelists somewhere, so you know what i mean by that.

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:57 pm

of course Finchelstein didn’t argue that Bolsonaro is a fascist
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:09 pm

Balsamo wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:29 pm

But i could not help from :roll: (eyes rolling) :lol: when i read this: " It is widely accepted that Nazism was a far-right movement."
Why is it not?
Provocatively, on could even say that in the perspective of South American traditional far rights, some measures taken by the Nazis could very well be viewed as "leftist".
That’s the same argument I got from some right-wing Republican who told me from the perspective of a 21st century American National Socialism was a leftist movement. That argument is irrelevant.
Bolsonaro is a evangelist***, promoting ultra economic liberalism, pro capitalist, privatize public companies, deregulate the economy, cutting public spendings, etc... Not really national socialist.
I’d say economically National Socialism was a bit of a mixture, keeping the social net that originated with Bismarck (who I don’t think anyone in their right mind would mistake for a warm and cuddly liberal) and continued through Weimar. National Socialism allowed large companies to function as it suited their interests to do so.


Let’s face it, economic matters bored Hitler and as long as things ran rather smoothly he didn’t care. The Strasserites (the real “Socialists”) were kicked out before Hitler became Chancellor and things continued as before. They certainly never collectivized agriculture in Germany or nationalized industry.

National Socialism was about race and nationalism, not class and economics.
Also, Donald Trump is a clownfraud who only got involved in this for the attention.

Deadspin, 2014:
https://deadspin.com/there-are-just-two ... 1613879544

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Balsamo » Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:35 pm

Jeffk:
Why is it not?
Well, let's put it in another way. I do think that expanding the concept of far right to far just blur the picture. Today, the concept of "Far right" has been turned into a "trash bin concept" - i am not suggesting that the far right in itself is not trash - which is a reduction that makes it difficult to analyze those movements for what they were in the past and are today.

Now i don't mind if this assimilation is made for political reasons, or even in a purely political perspective, i do mind though when it is used by scholar, in a more scientific perspective which requires making distinctions, looking in details, through comparative methods, researches, etc.

Historically, at the time they both co-existed, there were very few points in common between the traditional French far right, like the "Action francaise" and the NSDAP. Charles Maurras was the exact opposite of Adolf Hitler, his political program would have been incompatible, absolutely. Which is why very few of the principle French collaborator had "far right" background, quite the contrary, most adopted a "passive resignation", but some were among the first to actually resist - the communist Party will only take arms after june 1941. Of course, others gladly joined the pro-nazi camps.
The post war assimilation of Nazism to the far right was meant to get rid of that crap - i am not against that aim, btw - but allowed to avoid answering some embarrassing questions as why were most of the collaborators coming from the left?
And of course, also discard the prewar influence of Maurras on Charles de Gaulle.

So yes, the fundamental question being: how to explain the attraction of former far left members toward collaboration with Nazism? This question is answerable.
But what if the theoretical question becomes " How to explain the attraction of members of the far left to the far right in France after 1940? Difficult, because the question is badly put.

Here is Charles Maurras famous quote on Hitler:
There are certain conservatives in France who fill us with disgust. Why? Because of their stupidity. What kind of stupidity? Hitlerism. These French "conservatives" crawl on their bellies before Hitler. These former nationalists cringe before him. A few zealots wallow in dirt, in their own dirt, with endless Heils. The wealthier they are, the more they own, the more important it is to make them understand that if Hitler invaded us he would skin them much more thoroughly than Blum, Thorez and Stalin combined.
I could add, among other things, that the dynamics that brought General Franco to Power have nothing in common with the dynamics that put Hitler to power.
Etc.

Only a fraction of my answer here.
That’s the same argument I got from some right-wing Republican who told me from the perspective of a 21st century American National Socialism was a leftist movement. That argument is irrelevant.
Again, it is not that i am defending right-wing Rebublicans, those guys are really the opposite of what i stand for, but you qualifying the argument as irrelevant seems strange as it is obvious that no right wing american Republicans would have enjoyed a Nazi regime.
The only thing i see that makes your considerration irrelevant would be the adoption of the principle that because "both movements do belong to the far right", they belong to the same trash.

What i am in favor of is selective trash organization: One blue bin for right wing Republican, one brown bin for the Nazi, one black bin for the italian fascists, etc. That is sorting out the trashes, just how it is needed for recycling. You cannot recycle trash if you don't sort them out, it is just impossible if all the trash is in one bags. The same principle apply in understanding those "far right movements", you need to sort them out.
Let’s face it, economic matters bored Hitler and as long as things ran rather smoothly he didn’t care. The Strasserites (the real “Socialists”) were kicked out before Hitler became Chancellor and things continued as before. They certainly never collectivized agriculture in Germany or nationalized industry.
Well, i have never defended the idea that the Nazi movement was a leftist movement in the first place, i mean personally. I once tried to explain why some contemporaries might have seen it that way. My point was that, on the contrary, Nazism was a new political object based on a third way, that is, beyond the sole right/left dichotomy.

But i do recognize that the assimilation that took place after the war did a good job in out-casting the far right movements and their freak values, that existed before Nazism...until now at least. Politically, it was wise and allowed Europe to move forward.

Given that those movements are back, it would be wise to forget about the political stance, and scientifically sort the various trash that are emerging.

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:18 pm

>> Why is it not?

seating chart for Reichstag, after September 1930 elections, NSDAP brown:

Image

seating chart for Reichstag, after November 1932 elections, NSDAP brown:

Image

Sometimes I get my left and right mixed up but I'm pretty sure I have them sorted for this exercise. :)
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Balsamo » Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:27 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:18 pm
>> Why is it not?

seating chart for Reichstag, after September 1930 elections, NSDAP brown:

Image

seating chart for Reichstag, after November 1932 elections, NSDAP brown:

Image

Sometimes I get my left and right mixed up but I'm pretty sure I have them sorted for this exercise. :)
:lol: :lol:

Nice shot, i confess...
Bravo.

That would be another point in common, quite symbolic...Note that even in Parliament without any fascist/far right elected, some representatives still have to take those seats. :lol:

Still a good one! ;)

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:57 am

>> Note that even in Parliament without any fascist/far right elected, some representatives still have to take those seats.

except . . . seating chart for Reichstag, after May 1928 elections, NSDAP light blue:

Image
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Goody67 » Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:34 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:09 pm
National Socialism was about race and nationalism, not class and economics.
I’m curious, do you know of any quotes from Hitler (or any other prominent Nazi) which said that the racial purity of the German people was more important than the economy?
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:41 am

Goody67 wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:34 am
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:09 pm
National Socialism was about race and nationalism, not class and economics.
I’m curious, do you know of any quotes from Hitler (or any other prominent Nazi) which said that the racial purity of the German people was more important than the economy?
Not offhand, I’d need to hunt for something specific. I think there was something in Mein Kampf....
Maybe someone else will know and get it quicker. Right now I’m a bit busy with work.
Also, Donald Trump is a clownfraud who only got involved in this for the attention.

Deadspin, 2014:
https://deadspin.com/there-are-just-two ... 1613879544

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Goody67 » Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:43 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:41 am
Not offhand, I’d need to hunt for something specific. I think there was something in Mein Kampf....
Maybe someone else will know and get it quicker. Right now I’m a bit busy with work.
I did a little bit of research myself.

Hitler:
. . . ECONOMICS is a secondary matter. World history teaches us that no people became great through economics: it was economics that brought them to their ruin. A people died when its race was disintegrated. Germany, too, did not become great through economics.

A people that in its own life [volkisch] has lost honor becomes politically defenseless, and then becomes enslaved also in the economic sphere.
MUNICH

SPEECH OF SEPTEMBER 18, 1922

http://www.hitler.org/speeches/09-18-22.html
Great are the tasks of the national Government in the sphere of economic life.

Here all action must be governed by one law: the people does not live for business, and business does not exist for capital; but capital serves business, and business serves the people. In principle, the Government will not protect the economic interests of the German people by the circuitous method of an economic bureaucracy to be organized by the State, but by the utmost furtherance of private initiative and by the recognition of the rights of property....

The Government will systematically avoid currency experiments. We are faced above all by two economic tasks of the first magnitude. The salvation of the German farmer must be achieved at all costs....

Furthermore, it is perfectly clear to the national Government that the final removal of the distress both in agricultural business and in that of the towns depends on the absorption of the army of the unemployed in the process of production. This constitutes the second of the great economic tasks. It can only be solved by a general appeasement, in applying sound natural economic principles and all measures necessary, even if, at the time, they cannot reckon with any degree of popularity. The providing of work and the compulsory labor service are, in this connection, only individual measures within the scope of the entire action proposed....

We are aware that the geographic position of Germany, with her lack of raw materials, does not fully permit of economic self-sufficiency for the Reich. It cannot be too often emphasized that nothing is further from the thoughts of the Government of the Reich than hostility to exporting. We are fully aware that we have need of the connection with the outside world, and that the marketing of German commodities in the world provides a livelihood for many millions of our fellow-countrymen.

We also know what are the conditions necessary for a sound exchange of services between the nations of the world. For Germany has been compelled for years to perform services without receiving an equivalent, with the result that the task of maintaining Germany as an active partner in the exchange of commodities is not so much one of commercial as of financial policy. So long as we are not accorded a reasonable settlement of our foreign debts corresponding to our economic capacity, we are unfortunately compelled to maintain our foreign-exchange control. The Government of the Reich is, for that reason, also compelled to maintain the restrictions on the efflux of capital across the frontiers of Germany....

The protection of the frontiers of the Reich and thereby of the lives of our people and the existence of our business is now in the hands of the Reichswehr, which, in accordance with the terms imposed upon us by the Treaty of Versailles, is to be regarded as the only really disarmed army in the world. In spite of its enforced smallness and entirely insufficient armament, the German people may regard their Reichswehr with proud satisfaction. This little instrument of our national self-defence has come into being under the most difficult conditions. The spirit imbuing it is that of our best military traditions. The German nation has thus fulfilled with painful conscientiousness the obligations imposed upon it by the Peace Treaty, indeed, even the replacement of ships for our fleet then sanctioned has, I may perhaps be allowed to say, unfortunately, only been carried out to a small extent.

For years Germany has been waiting in vain for the fulfillment of the promise of disarmament made to her by the others. It is the sincere desire of the national Government to be able to refrain from increasing our army and our weapons, insofar as the rest of the world is now also ready to fulfill its obligations in the matter of radical disarmament. For Germany desires nothing except an equal right to live and equal freedom.

In any case the national Government will educate the German people in this spirit of a desire for freedom. The national honor, the honor of our army and the ideal of freedom must once more become sacred to the German people!
BERLIN, REICHSTAG

SPEECH OF MARCH 23, 1933

http://www.hitler.org/speeches/03-23-33.html
Our fundamental economic principles are, first, to unite all the forces existing, and secondly, to educate our people better in their use.
NUREMBERG, LABOR-FRONT

SPEECH OF SEPTEMBER 12, 1936

http://www.hitler.org/speeches/09-12-36.html

He also remarked:
I have the ambition to make the German people rich and Germany beautiful.
And, Nazism was basically to make sure that:
'the Volk is to be given a style of life that corresponds to its abilities and the level of its culture.
"Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes you nothing. It was here first." - Mark Twain

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Apr 25, 2019 7:23 pm

Heck, Hitler had such a warped grasp of what Marxism is, despite his self-assurance and affinity for prolix gibberish, that he could write in Mein Kampf about Marxism as a doctrine of Jewish domination, describing the development of Marx's theory as an anti-national necromancy:
all this was done in the service of his race.

Thus the Marxist doctrine is the concentrated extract of the mentality which underlies the general concept of life to-day. . . . The bourgeois world is Marxist but believes in the possibility of a certain group of people--that is to say, the bourgeoisie--being able to dominate the world, while Marxism itself systematically aims at delivering the world into the hands of the Jews.

Over against all this, the VÖLKISCH concept of the world recognizes that the primordial racial elements are of the greatest significance for mankind.
And:
Knowledge of the Jews is the only key whereby one may understand the inner nature and therefore the real aims of Social Democracy.

The man who has come to know this race has succeeded in removing from his eyes the veil through which he had seen the aims and meaning of his Party in a false light; and then, out of the murk and fog of social phrases rises the grimacing figure of Marxism.
More broadly, if for Marx class struggle was the "motor of history," for Hitler it was a racial and biological amalgam of national struggle:
The main plank in the National Socialist program is to abolish the liberalistic concept of the individual and the Marxist concept of humanity and to substitute therefore the folk community, rooted in the soil and bound together by the bond of its common blood. . . . I can prophesy here that, just as the knowledge that the earth moves around the sun led to a revolutionary alternation in the general world-picture, so the blood-and-race doctrine of the National Socialist Movement will bring about a revolutionary change in our knowledge and therewith a radical reconstruction of the picture which human history gives us of the past and will also change the course of that history in the future. . . . The National Socialist Movement, however, limits its sphere of internal activity to those individuals who belong to one people and it refuses to allow the members of a foreign race to wield an influence over our political, intellectual, or cultural life. And we refuse to accord to the members of a foreign race any predominant position in our national economic system.

In this folk-community, which is based on the bond of blood, and in the results which National Socialism has obtained by making the idea of this community understood among the public, lies the most profound reason for the marvelous success of our Revolution.
https://research.calvin.edu/german-prop ... itler1.htm (1937)
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Goody67 » Thu Apr 25, 2019 9:57 pm

By the mid-1920s Hitler had begun to link the Jews with Marxism, he called the latter to be "the Jewish doctrine of Marxism" in Mein Kampf. In Hitler's warped mind 'Jew' and 'Marxism' were synonymous.

Hitler justified the invasion of the Soviet Union in his speech as:
For more than two decades the Jewish Bolshevik regime in Moscow had tried to set fire not merely to Germany but to all of Europe…The Jewish Bolshevik rulers in Moscow have unswervingly undertaken to force their domination upon us and the other European nations and that is not merely spiritually, but also in terms of military power…Now the time has come to confront the plot of the Anglo-Saxon Jewish war-mongers and the equally Jewish rulers of the Bolshevik centre in Moscow!
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Balsamo » Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:01 pm

Goody67 wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 9:57 pm
By the mid-1920s Hitler had begun to link the Jews with Marxism, he called the latter to be "the Jewish doctrine of Marxism" in Mein Kampf. In Hitler's warped mind 'Jew' and 'Marxism' were synonymous.

Hitler justified the invasion of the Soviet Union in his speech as:
For more than two decades the Jewish Bolshevik regime in Moscow had tried to set fire not merely to Germany but to all of Europe…The Jewish Bolshevik rulers in Moscow have unswervingly undertaken to force their domination upon us and the other European nations and that is not merely spiritually, but also in terms of military power…Now the time has come to confront the plot of the Anglo-Saxon Jewish war-mongers and the equally Jewish rulers of the Bolshevik centre in Moscow!
Hitler was too poorly educated for that. Actually, it all came from Dietrich Eckart, as well as Rosenberg. But even those two did not invented the concept of Judeo-Bolshevism on their own. This was a wide-spread and international belief. Hitler's megalomania would just makes his, ideologies that convinced him, or later military strategies that worked.
But then, on this very subject, if my memory does not betrayed me, Hitler acknowledges this in Mein Kampf, writing in the first chapters, that he was not an Antisemite before "his eyes were opened".

That being said, Hitler would bring his delirium about the almighty Jewry to a paranoid level never seen before (and hopefully ever after).

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Goody67 » Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:24 pm

Balsamo wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:01 pm
Hitler was too poorly educated for that. Actually, it all came from Dietrich Eckart, as well as Rosenberg. But even those two did not invented the concept of Judeo-Bolshevism on their own. This was a wide-spread and international belief. Hitler's megalomania would just makes his, ideologies that convinced him, or later military strategies that worked.
But then, on this very subject, if my memory does not betrayed me, Hitler acknowledges this in Mein Kampf, writing in the first chapters, that he was not an Antisemite before "his eyes were opened".

That being said, Hitler would bring his delirium about the almighty Jewry to a paranoid level never seen before (and hopefully ever after).
You are right, during his time in Vienna he read brochures and pamphlets which contained the main themes of philosophers, racial theorists, etc, but never actually their works word by word.

Yes, he wrote:

“For me this was the time of the greatest spiritual upheaval I have ever had to go through. I had ceased to be a weak-kneed cosmopolitan and become an anti-Semite.”
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Balsamo » Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:16 pm

Goody67 wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:24 pm
Balsamo wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:01 pm
Hitler was too poorly educated for that. Actually, it all came from Dietrich Eckart, as well as Rosenberg. But even those two did not invented the concept of Judeo-Bolshevism on their own. This was a wide-spread and international belief. Hitler's megalomania would just makes his, ideologies that convinced him, or later military strategies that worked.
But then, on this very subject, if my memory does not betrayed me, Hitler acknowledges this in Mein Kampf, writing in the first chapters, that he was not an Antisemite before "his eyes were opened".

That being said, Hitler would bring his delirium about the almighty Jewry to a paranoid level never seen before (and hopefully ever after).
You are right, during his time in Vienna he read brochures and pamphlets which contained the main themes of philosophers, racial theorists, etc, but never actually their works word by word.

Yes, he wrote:

“For me this was the time of the greatest spiritual upheaval I have ever had to go through. I had ceased to be a weak-kneed cosmopolitan and become an anti-Semite.”
This is exactly the chapter i had in mind, this passage especially: could you just imagine Hitler being a "cosmopolitan", weak-need or not?

Hitler was not a great intellectual and never been one, and i do not think that one should only rely on the " GröFaZ" writings to analyze his movement, or at least, not exclusively, but also look into what was it that his followers was expecting, also the "ideologists" writings, what was it that attracted foreigners to his hostile and hyper nationalist regime, their personal backgrounds, etc.
But then, someone told me that the times of debates have passed on this forum...So i will stay put.

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:31 pm

Goody67 wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:24 pm
Balsamo wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:01 pm
Hitler was too poorly educated for that. Actually, it all came from Dietrich Eckart, as well as Rosenberg. But even those two did not invented the concept of Judeo-Bolshevism on their own. This was a wide-spread and international belief. Hitler's megalomania would just makes his, ideologies that convinced him, or later military strategies that worked.
But then, on this very subject, if my memory does not betrayed me, Hitler acknowledges this in Mein Kampf, writing in the first chapters, that he was not an Antisemite before "his eyes were opened".

That being said, Hitler would bring his delirium about the almighty Jewry to a paranoid level never seen before (and hopefully ever after).
You are right, during his time in Vienna he read brochures and pamphlets which contained the main themes of philosophers, racial theorists, etc, but never actually their works word by word.

Yes, he wrote:

“For me this was the time of the greatest spiritual upheaval I have ever had to go through. I had ceased to be a weak-kneed cosmopolitan and become an anti-Semite.”
Let’s face it, the biographical parts of Mein Kampf are crap. Hitler didn’t experience some “great awakening” in Vienna. He just backdated to gain credibility in the right-wing movement that he was a part of.

He drifted through Vienna. I think he gained some ancillary antisemitism through exposure to it but he was on fairly good terms with several Jews and even did business with them. His antisemitism didn’t really sprout until after the war.

Kershaw’s biography of him noted this, as did Ulrich.
Also, Donald Trump is a clownfraud who only got involved in this for the attention.

Deadspin, 2014:
https://deadspin.com/there-are-just-two ... 1613879544

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Balsamo » Fri Apr 26, 2019 11:07 pm

LOL.

It is not just the biographical parts of Mein Kampf that are craps, all the parts are like a crappy synthesis of what he had gathered all around.

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Goody67 » Sat Apr 27, 2019 5:03 pm

There is one example in Mein Kampf that Hitler wrote about which I find interesting:
There is one kind of sport which should be specially encouraged, although many people who call themselves völkisch consider it brutal and vulgar, and that is boxing. It is incredible how many false notions prevail among the 'cultivated' classes. The fact that the young man learns how to fence and then spends his time in duels is considered quite natural and respectable. But boxing – that is brutal. Why? There is no other sport which equals this in developing the militant spirit, none that demands such a power of rapid decision or which gives the body the flexibility of good steel. It is no more vulgar when two young people settle their differences with their fists than with sharp-pointed pieces of steel. One who is attacked and defends himself with his fists surely does not act less manly than one who runs off and yells for the assistance of a policeman. But, above all, a healthy youth has to learn to endure hard knocks. This principle may appear savage to our contemporary champions who fight only with the weapons of the intellect. But it is not the purpose of the People's State to educate a colony of æsthetic pacifists and physical degenerates. This State does not consider that the human ideal is to be found in the honourable philistine or the maidenly spinster, but in a dareful personification of manly force and in women capable of bringing men into the world.

Generally speaking, the function of sport is not only to make the individual strong, alert and daring, but also to harden the body and train it to endure an adverse environment.
"Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes you nothing. It was here first." - Mark Twain