Going to Hell in a handbasket

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bobbo_the_Pragmatist
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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jan 13, 2019 6:32 am

Constant mischaracterization, fabrication, and refusal to answer direct questions.

I withdraw.
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landrew
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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by landrew » Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:57 pm

No sane person would read the act verbatim. Here's a Wikipedia article that sums it up:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espionage_Act_of_1917
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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:57 am

landrew wrote: No sane person would read the act verbatim.
Julian Assange's lawyers have been reading the act verbatim and then reading the interpretive Supreme Court case law. That's how they form what is called a "defense argument " in court. :lol: :lol: :lol:

You are aware higher courts interpret legislation right?

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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by Tom Palven » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:52 pm

Don't know if this is true, but it's seems like something else that, true or not, one is unlikely to see covered by the AP:
https://www.rt.com/business/448747-chin ... -falls-us/
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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landrew
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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by landrew » Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:00 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:57 am
landrew wrote: No sane person would read the act verbatim.
Julian Assange's lawyers have been reading the act verbatim and then reading the interpretive Supreme Court case law. That's how they form what is called a "defense argument " in court. :lol: :lol: :lol:

You are aware higher courts interpret legislation right?
If I were a lawyer, I'd gladly read it verbatim, but I'm not.
I did say no "sane" person, right?
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:14 pm

.........I'm not getting it. Whats the alternative to reading ....verbatim?

verbatim: In precisely the same words used by a writer or speaker or: Using exactly the same words. In context, this means reading what is in front of you? Something everyone should do.............
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by landrew » Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:40 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:14 pm
.........I'm not getting it. Whats the alternative to reading ....verbatim?

verbatim: In precisely the same words used by a writer or speaker or: Using exactly the same words. In context, this means reading what is in front of you? Something everyone should do.............
Tell me you read every word of every EULA when you install new software.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by Tom Palven » Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:10 pm

landrew wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:57 pm
No sane person would read the act verbatim. Here's a Wikipedia article that sums it up:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espionage_Act_of_1917
I agree.

That was the beauty of the Bill of Rights in the US Constitution, they are are concise.

The First Amendment reads:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

How can The First Amendment be void where prohibited by law, specifically The Espionage Act passed by Congress in 1917, as "Matthew Ellard" maintains, when the First Amendment has not been repealed?

"Easy," says "Matthew." and, unfortunately, he is quite correct, which is why the US has been going to hell in a handbag for decades.

(The drone-fired rocket murder of US citizen Anwar al-Awlaki in Yemen for speaking out against US actions there, and then the drone murder of his 16 year-old son, who was born in the US, two weeks later, violated several amendments in the Bill of Rights and was upheld as lawful by the Supreme Court.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_al-Awlaki
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:37 pm

landrew wrote: If I were a lawyer, I'd gladly read it verbatim, but I'm not.
I thought is was rather obvious that the law is written for lawyers.

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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:40 pm

landrew wrote: Tell me you read every word of every EULA when you install new software.
Unlike the Espionage Act 1917, there is no capital punishment for breaking a software licensing agreement.

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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:49 pm

Tom Palven wrote:How can The First Amendment be void where prohibited by law, specifically The Espionage Act.
The First Amendment is not voided, rather, the activity undertaken by the convicted person, is characterised as not an activity protected by the First Amendment. The judge clearly states this in detail on behalf of the unanimous bench and you never bothered to read the ruling.
Tom Palven wrote: which is why the US has been going to hell in a handbag for decades.
Every country interprets their Constitution and/or legislation via their respective high courts. USA law was taken in full from the United Kingdom at settlement in the 17th century. Didn't you know? :lol: :lol:

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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:45 am

landrew wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:40 pm
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:14 pm
.........I'm not getting it. Whats the alternative to reading ....verbatim?

verbatim: In precisely the same words used by a writer or speaker or: Using exactly the same words. In context, this means reading what is in front of you? Something everyone should do.............
Tell me you read every word of every EULA when you install new software.
Reading or not reading "every word" has nothing to do with verbatim......but if that is what you think it means..........do you think lawyers go to court and file briefs and cross examine witnesses and answer questions from the judges not having read all laws they reference their work on?

.............................OR..............................

do you mean to say lawyers read all that stuff but present their own views on the law, what it says, what it means, how to apply it, the distinguishing facts of the case and so forth?

Again: if you mean the latter, that is "interpretation" which would be impossible to do (competently) without reading the reference material verbatim........................an alternative to such a reading would be how I got thru college: reading clift notes. In the law, I would guess some lawyers might just read summaries of what the law/cases mean?

Know what I mean?
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?