Going to Hell in a handbasket

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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jan 13, 2019 6:32 am

Constant mischaracterization, fabrication, and refusal to answer direct questions.

I withdraw.
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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by landrew » Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:57 pm

No sane person would read the act verbatim. Here's a Wikipedia article that sums it up:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espionage_Act_of_1917
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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:57 am

landrew wrote: No sane person would read the act verbatim.
Julian Assange's lawyers have been reading the act verbatim and then reading the interpretive Supreme Court case law. That's how they form what is called a "defense argument " in court. :lol: :lol: :lol:

You are aware higher courts interpret legislation right?

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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by Tom Palven » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:52 pm

Don't know if this is true, but it's seems like something else that, true or not, one is unlikely to see covered by the AP:
https://www.rt.com/business/448747-chin ... -falls-us/
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by landrew » Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:00 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:57 am
landrew wrote: No sane person would read the act verbatim.
Julian Assange's lawyers have been reading the act verbatim and then reading the interpretive Supreme Court case law. That's how they form what is called a "defense argument " in court. :lol: :lol: :lol:

You are aware higher courts interpret legislation right?
If I were a lawyer, I'd gladly read it verbatim, but I'm not.
I did say no "sane" person, right?
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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:14 pm

.........I'm not getting it. Whats the alternative to reading ....verbatim?

verbatim: In precisely the same words used by a writer or speaker or: Using exactly the same words. In context, this means reading what is in front of you? Something everyone should do.............
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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by landrew » Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:40 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:14 pm
.........I'm not getting it. Whats the alternative to reading ....verbatim?

verbatim: In precisely the same words used by a writer or speaker or: Using exactly the same words. In context, this means reading what is in front of you? Something everyone should do.............
Tell me you read every word of every EULA when you install new software.
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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by Tom Palven » Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:10 pm

landrew wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:57 pm
No sane person would read the act verbatim. Here's a Wikipedia article that sums it up:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espionage_Act_of_1917
I agree.

That was the beauty of the Bill of Rights in the US Constitution, they are are concise.

The First Amendment reads:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

How can The First Amendment be void where prohibited by law, specifically The Espionage Act passed by Congress in 1917, as "Matthew Ellard" maintains, when the First Amendment has not been repealed?

"Easy," says "Matthew." and, unfortunately, he is quite correct, which is why the US has been going to hell in a handbag for decades.

(The drone-fired rocket murder of US citizen Anwar al-Awlaki in Yemen for speaking out against US actions there, and then the drone murder of his 16 year-old son, who was born in the US, two weeks later, violated several amendments in the Bill of Rights and was upheld as lawful by the Supreme Court.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_al-Awlaki
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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:37 pm

landrew wrote: If I were a lawyer, I'd gladly read it verbatim, but I'm not.
I thought is was rather obvious that the law is written for lawyers.

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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:40 pm

landrew wrote: Tell me you read every word of every EULA when you install new software.
Unlike the Espionage Act 1917, there is no capital punishment for breaking a software licensing agreement.

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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:49 pm

Tom Palven wrote:How can The First Amendment be void where prohibited by law, specifically The Espionage Act.
The First Amendment is not voided, rather, the activity undertaken by the convicted person, is characterised as not an activity protected by the First Amendment. The judge clearly states this in detail on behalf of the unanimous bench and you never bothered to read the ruling.
Tom Palven wrote: which is why the US has been going to hell in a handbag for decades.
Every country interprets their Constitution and/or legislation via their respective high courts. USA law was taken in full from the United Kingdom at settlement in the 17th century. Didn't you know? :lol: :lol:

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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:45 am

landrew wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:40 pm
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:14 pm
.........I'm not getting it. Whats the alternative to reading ....verbatim?

verbatim: In precisely the same words used by a writer or speaker or: Using exactly the same words. In context, this means reading what is in front of you? Something everyone should do.............
Tell me you read every word of every EULA when you install new software.
Reading or not reading "every word" has nothing to do with verbatim......but if that is what you think it means..........do you think lawyers go to court and file briefs and cross examine witnesses and answer questions from the judges not having read all laws they reference their work on?

.............................OR..............................

do you mean to say lawyers read all that stuff but present their own views on the law, what it says, what it means, how to apply it, the distinguishing facts of the case and so forth?

Again: if you mean the latter, that is "interpretation" which would be impossible to do (competently) without reading the reference material verbatim........................an alternative to such a reading would be how I got thru college: reading clift notes. In the law, I would guess some lawyers might just read summaries of what the law/cases mean?

Know what I mean?
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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by Tom Palven » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:57 am

US restraint of trade again shoots US economy in the foot as sanctions on Venezuelan oil to support coup money-wrenches US oil refiners:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-vene ... SKCN1PT28X
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:14 am

Excellent lead in..............thanks.
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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by OutOfBreath » Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:39 pm

Maduro is leading an economically, politically and morally bankrupt regime, and blatantly stole the last election. 3 million refugees, 200.000 children near starvation. He needs to go before it gets even worse. I dont care if it also suits us interests. His only international support is from russia and china, both countries loth to let undemocratic strongmen fall lest a dangerous example is set for themselves.

I think this may be the first foreign policy move by trumps cabinet i can support. Even a blind chicken, i suppose.

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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by landrew » Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:23 pm

It's not like Trump to favor democracy over authoritarianism. He has expressed admiration for dictators and despots many times.
There must be other agendas at play.
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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:06 pm

I read "something" months ago that the only thing keeping Maduro in power is his phalanx of Cuban troops.

Recently the reports of 100 Thousand % inflation rate (up from the 80K average of 2018) seem like an acid trip to me. Money is truly worthless...costing the government to even print the stuff? Convert $$ to ANY hard good as fast as possible.

Government/Corruption. It does override about every other "societal" concern...........with all gubments having various degrees of it.........with the USA inching past a bit too much in my view. TAX THE RICH: until they all die...........oops, this isn't the Climate forum, so..........until they all pay their fair share? Or is that the same thing?
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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by Tom Palven » Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:40 am

Venezuela attempts to circumvent US economic sanctions:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-vene ... SKCN1PY0N3
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:56 pm

Palven: I think Maduro is corrupt enough that he "ought to go." So, the open question is should the USA get involved in any way or not? USA has "an interest" in what happens in South America when it gets so bad that people are seeking sanctuary in the USA as a result. I support the USA doing just about anything...........short of sending in Troops. I also would be very hesitant to support any violent revolution except in various extended ways. Like people, nation states should experience their own FREEEEEEEDOM by leaving other Nation States alone........but we all live on one tiny planet and what one nation state does does affect other nation states. When your GDP is measured by how much weight your people are losing per year....you should recognize other Nation States will have an interest in stopping your regime.

and so it goes.............
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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by landrew » Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:41 pm

The countries who support Maduro tend to be authoritarian regimes who fear their populace and democracy.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/02/06/ma ... fographic/
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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:47 pm

landrew wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:41 pm
The countries who support Maduro tend to be authoritarian regimes who fear their populace and democracy.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/02/06/ma ... fographic/
Very true as like supports like. And like attacks the un-like as when Putin moved to put Trump in Power. Authoritarian regimes are benefitted when Dumbos devolve to fight among themselves.........and the same vice versa.

Its amusing how often the very same issues/activities exist across so called divides. it comes down to people being people.

Silly hoomans.
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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by landrew » Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:54 pm

At risk of invoking Godwin's Law again, Trump would likely have moved the US towards being an authoritarian regime had he not been a buffoon.
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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:11 pm

He's moved it and continues to push as hard as he can. I'll give him an A in that department. our society is being weakened, torn asunder, by these actions and will suffer for it when Trump is gone. The country does have strong countervailing forces to Trumps monomaniacalism....sadly just too much slower to react. The to and fro of history.
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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by Tom Palven » Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:46 am

"Matthew," the PMF is the reincarnation of what, pray tell?
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-iraq ... SKCN1Q20R5
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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by OutOfBreath » Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:40 pm

Tom Palven wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:46 am
"Matthew," the PMF is the reincarnation of what, pray tell?
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-iraq ... SKCN1Q20R5
You tell us. Those groups have been around since the fall of Saddam Hussein and wield some influence in Iraq's political shia parties. Good old Moqtada al-Sadr was/is a prominent figure in these factions.

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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:49 am

Tom Palven wrote: "Matthew," the PMF is the reincarnation of what, pray tell?
Nothing you moron. It is a union of smaller groups, that fought your friends ISIS, that are now sponsored by the Iraq government.

Are you unable to read basic history yourself?
:lol: :lol:

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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by Tom Palven » Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:59 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:49 am
Tom Palven wrote: "Matthew," the PMF is the reincarnation of what, pray tell?
Nothing you moron. It is a union of smaller groups, that fought your friends ISIS, that are now sponsored by the Iraq government.

Are you unable to read basic history yourself?
:lol: :lol:
You are truly a bundle of laughs! :lol:
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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by landrew » Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:20 pm

Our own Don Rickles, but not so funny.
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Re: Going to Hell in a handbasket

Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:08 am

Tom Palven wrote: "Matthew," the PMF is the reincarnation of what, pray tell?
Matthew Ellard wrote:Nothing you moron. It is a union of smaller groups, that fought your friends ISIS, that are now sponsored by the Iraq government. Are you unable to read basic history yourself? :lol: :lol:
Tom Palven wrote: You are truly a bundle of laughs! :lol:
You mean. "Thank you Mr Ellard Sir. You are right and I must learn to read basic history before posting again".