Best stand-alone evidence?

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Re: Best stand-alone evidence?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:25 pm

I don't see how deniers can make 3428 work for them. IIRC it is one of the documents that some pretend to have been forged. Many authors discuss 3428. Here is some background from HC: http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... art-1.html
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Re: Best stand-alone evidence?

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:28 pm

Oozy_Substance wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:05 pm
Just read 3428-PS again. Totally forgot about it.
Just a few questions :

1) Is the 55,000 figure is summary for all the deaths mentioned, or is it additional to the other figures mentioned? (16,000, 8,000)
Based upon another quick glance through its additional.

2) Just to see if I got it right, Kube is asking to halt the shipment of Jews to Minsk, so his troops could focus on killing Jews around. Can deniers twist it around like the figures mentioned above are actually regarding deportations?
I’ve seen deniers focus exclusively on the part of the document that discusses partisans. Their reasoning is that it was legal to shoot partisans and hostages, even women and children.
Question for Groening by a reporter:
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Re: Best stand-alone evidence?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:44 pm

Which makes no sense in terms of what the document says, inter alia "Naturally I and the SD would like it best if Jewry in the Generalbezirk of Byelorussia was finally eliminated after their labor is no longer required by the Wehrmacht. For the time being the essential requirements of the Wehrmacht, the main employer of Jewry, are being taken into consideration.". Kues' discussion here: https://inconvenienthistory.com/3/1/3141

I think Codoh folks have taken both positions - it's a forgery and it's not about Jewish liquidations. 55,000 Jewish partisans in the area . . . including old and young people and women who were in the eyes of the Germans unfit for work, people in the mentioned cities, etc. Amazing.
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Re: Best stand-alone evidence?

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:19 pm

It’s been some time since I looked into it but partisan operations acted independently of the mass shootings of Jews in the area.

We discussed this over at FG’s blog at one time, the position that CODOH dwellers take is the same those deniers took. Was this ever discussed at RODOH while you were there?
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Harvard Crimson (on why it refused to run an add by Bradley Smith):
“(It is) vicious propaganda based on utter BS that has been discredited time and time again.”

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Re: Best stand-alone evidence?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:02 pm

There were definitely Jewish partisans in Belarus (e.g., Bielski brothers) . . . but

- most Soviet partisan commanders did not welcome Jewish fighters, and in heavily Polish areas, the partisans themselves were often overtly hostile to Jews
- as was the case in the Baltics, many of the Jewish partisan units were more family camps maintained in the forests to protect Jews from further actions and from which some of the members attempted revenge actions; these were not effective military forces
- the "nucleus of growing Soviet partisan resistance from the summer of 1942 came from Soviet PoWs, who were driven into the forests by the threat of starvation or being shot" (Dean); only later, in 1943 and thereafter, did Jews surviving the 2nd wave of the German extermination actions (which wiped out Jewish communities throughout the region) augment these forces appreciably
- so it was not until late 1943 and into 1944 (after the period under discussion) some Jewish partisans in the region were able to join Soviet partisans
- the partisan units in Belorussia and Ukraine never included very many Jewish fighters; according to Martin Dean's research: "there were some 370 000 Soviet partisans in Belorussia in 1944, of whom about 4 to 5 per cent (or 15 000) were Jews" - er, not 55 000 or more in summer 1942, not even close . . .
- overall in Belarus, membership in Soviet partisan units reflected more the makeup of the local population than anything but Russians were well represented generally

I don't recall this document being discussed at Rodoh but Kube and the Jewish extermination in Belarus certainly were.
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Re: Best stand-alone evidence?

Post by Oozy_Substance » Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:12 am

Browsed HC for a bit and I think I found a good stand-alone evidence.

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... s-gas.html

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Re: Best stand-alone evidence?

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:47 am

Last edited by Jeffk 1970 on Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Harvard Crimson (on why it refused to run an add by Bradley Smith):
“(It is) vicious propaganda based on utter BS that has been discredited time and time again.”

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Re: Best stand-alone evidence?

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:51 am

Hah, hunted around for these and finally found them:
Image
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Harvard Crimson (on why it refused to run an add by Bradley Smith):
“(It is) vicious propaganda based on utter BS that has been discredited time and time again.”

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Re: Best stand-alone evidence?

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Fri Mar 01, 2019 9:59 pm

Putting this here, Sergey’s excellent summary:
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Harvard Crimson (on why it refused to run an add by Bradley Smith):
“(It is) vicious propaganda based on utter BS that has been discredited time and time again.”

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Re: Best stand-alone evidence?

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:47 pm

Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Harvard Crimson (on why it refused to run an add by Bradley Smith):
“(It is) vicious propaganda based on utter BS that has been discredited time and time again.”

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Re: Best stand-alone evidence?

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:31 pm

Bump
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Harvard Crimson (on why it refused to run an add by Bradley Smith):
“(It is) vicious propaganda based on utter BS that has been discredited time and time again.”

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Re: Best stand-alone evidence?

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Fri Apr 05, 2019 2:16 pm

Bump
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Harvard Crimson (on why it refused to run an add by Bradley Smith):
“(It is) vicious propaganda based on utter BS that has been discredited time and time again.”

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Re: Best stand-alone evidence?

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat May 11, 2019 3:28 am

Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Harvard Crimson (on why it refused to run an add by Bradley Smith):
“(It is) vicious propaganda based on utter BS that has been discredited time and time again.”

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Re: Best stand-alone evidence?

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat May 11, 2019 7:18 pm

Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Harvard Crimson (on why it refused to run an add by Bradley Smith):
“(It is) vicious propaganda based on utter BS that has been discredited time and time again.”

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Re: Best stand-alone evidence?

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:47 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:01 pm
Franke-Gricksch report on Auschwitz
I’m going to put this here:
https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... f.html?m=1
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Harvard Crimson (on why it refused to run an add by Bradley Smith):
“(It is) vicious propaganda based on utter BS that has been discredited time and time again.”

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Re: Best stand-alone evidence?

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:47 pm

BTW that analysis is amazing.
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Harvard Crimson (on why it refused to run an add by Bradley Smith):
“(It is) vicious propaganda based on utter BS that has been discredited time and time again.”

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Re: Best stand-alone evidence?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:18 pm

Stunning. Like Darren, I await a denier response.
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Re: Best stand-alone evidence?

Post by Darren Wilshak » Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:21 pm

Huntinger will be first off the bat with some crap about his fantasy Gestapo. Obviously, ex transcriber Blake won't be responding as he has more important things to do. I would say that even checking the palms of your hands for hairs is more important than the indulgence that is Holocaust denial...
"We are still waiting for anyone to rebut the main theme of the article that the decode in question and the numbers it quoted perfectly match those in the Korherr report.

Until such a rebuttal comes to light and goes through peer review the article stands the test of time. And after 10 years since the article was published both Peter (Witte) and I have moved on to other research projects. "

AHF

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Re: Best stand-alone evidence?

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:36 pm

Darren Wilshak wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:21 pm
Huntinger will be first off the bat with some crap about his fantasy Gestapo. Obviously, ex transcriber Blake won't be responding as he has more important things to do. I would say that even checking the palms of your hands for hairs is more important than the indulgence that is Holocaust denial...
Huntinger will say something about Juden and I predict been-there will say walls of text, walls of text, walls of text, walls of text holy moley!!! :roll: Walls of text, walls of text, walls of text, walls of text, holy moley!!!! :roll:
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Harvard Crimson (on why it refused to run an add by Bradley Smith):
“(It is) vicious propaganda based on utter BS that has been discredited time and time again.”

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Re: Best stand-alone evidence?

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:37 pm

Oh, I do agree that Huntinger will indeed sic his imaginary Gestapo on Hans to funnel out the truth.
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Harvard Crimson (on why it refused to run an add by Bradley Smith):
“(It is) vicious propaganda based on utter BS that has been discredited time and time again.”