Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Discussions
User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 26794
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:48 am

lol
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

Balmoral95
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3132
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 4:14 am
Location: The Free Nambia Healthcare Nirvana

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Balmoral95 » Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:54 am

Good to have confirmation of a moron pool there, although why wouldn't there be...

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 26794
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Nov 19, 2018 3:22 pm

. . . all right we are two nations . . .

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has No Life
Posts: 12138
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am
Custom Title: Lost in Translation
Location: Safely stored in my own mind

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Nov 19, 2018 4:07 pm

I have to double check to make sure this is the parody account:
https://mobile.twitter.com/realdonaldtr ... 8415170561
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 26794
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:24 pm

A Finnish plant biologist wrote a note to TPM explaining raking in Finland. Here is the TPM EdBlog article: https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/fi ... p-on-rakes.

To my mind, the best paragraph was this one, where the biologist gets into the raking practices of Finns:
– Any small site CAN of course be raked and many people in rural houses or summer cottages DO rake their lawns and sometimes adjacent forest edges in, say, around 5 to maximally about 20 m radius from the house. The basic purpose of this is NOT fire prevention or forest management, but to keep the yard tidy, to keep the lawn mowable, to accumulate some litter to the garden, just out of custom and so on. This is not forest management, this is cleaning a yard. Such places would develop into grassy sites under the trees, not typical forest.
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has No Life
Posts: 12138
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am
Custom Title: Lost in Translation
Location: Safely stored in my own mind

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:05 pm

Image
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 26794
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:08 pm

It should have said, "When you finnish here . . ." :)
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has No Life
Posts: 12138
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am
Custom Title: Lost in Translation
Location: Safely stored in my own mind

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:50 pm

LOL
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 26794
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:27 am

I can't help this, either:

Doctors need to stay in their lanes and stop butting in on guns: "Gunman kills four, including a police officer, in shooting at a Chicago hospital" - damn doctors, always getting in the way

At least it's only Chicago today: "Multiple people shot in downtown Denver, 1 dead"
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 26794
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:29 pm

Remember when, around election time, we used to debate whether Trump had authoritarian tendencies and motives? Well, he has blown far past that line, even if he bellows like a drunken 4-year-old, and is taking the country into brand new territory: Trump tried to get the DOJ to prosecute Comey ... and his '16 election opponent, what's-her-name.

Would Cadet Bonespurs have bothered with show trials - or just put them straight into camps somewhere?

I guess that means that we should have been taking Trump literally - not just seriously.

Of course, a very large part of the country has been chanting, posting on FB, or dreaming, "Lock her up" for the past 2-1/2 years.
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has No Life
Posts: 12138
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am
Custom Title: Lost in Translation
Location: Safely stored in my own mind

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Nov 21, 2018 2:34 am

Can we start chanting “lock her up!!!” regarding Ivanka Trump and her e-mail issues?
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 26794
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Nov 21, 2018 8:05 pm

Damn it, that does it. I just got a call-up notice for tomorrow through Sunday, for duty in the National Forest Floor Raking and Expeditionary Force (NFFREF - known in the US as "niffreff"). I have to report at 5am for a flight to the West Coast, issuance of rakes on arrival there, brief orientation, and then dispersal in groups of 100 for floor-raking for the next 4 days.
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has No Life
Posts: 12138
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am
Custom Title: Lost in Translation
Location: Safely stored in my own mind

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Nov 21, 2018 8:07 pm

LOL

That’s too bad, I thought Trump was sending the turkey he pardoned to clean the forests up. After all, a turkey needs to earn his keep.
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 26794
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Nov 23, 2018 5:21 pm

. . . all right we are two nations . . .

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 26794
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Dec 01, 2018 2:01 pm

There is still no new government in Sweden. To make this short, after a number of failed attempts, the Riksdag speaker has taken charge of the process. If after four attempts there is still no government, new elections must take place.

The Centerpartiet and Liberalerna have set conditions to support a Social Democratic led government (reduced taxes on the wealthy and on corporations, tiered wage structure to allow hiring of new workers at lower wages, more privatization including school choice, etc) and are in talks with the Social Democrats. But both the Center and Liberal parties maintain that the Alliance (the conservative bloc of which they have been part) remains intact.

OTOH the Centerpartiet and Liberalerna did not back the leader of Alliance partner Moderaterna for prime minister - in part because the Moderaterna were willing to govern with tacit Sweden Democrat support. Their views on immigration and social issues have kept the Centerpartiet and Liberalerna from accepting such a solution, as both strongly reject any form of collaboration with the far-right Sweden Democrats. The Christian Democrats and the Moderaterna, for their part, are adamantly opposed to the course taken by the Centerpartiet and Liberalerna and reject collaboration with the Social Democrats.

Jimmie Åkesson, Sweden Democrat leader, is saying that the conservative bloc is now, de facto, composed of the Christian Democrats, the Moderaterna, and his party - with the Centerpartiet and Liberalerna having shown themselves to be on the left: "The two liberal parties in this old alliance are fully naturally left-wing." Åkesson's pitch to the Christian Democrats and the Moderaterna is that they retool the right-wing Alliance and formally accept the Sweden Democrats as their partner. Expressen reports that the Sweden Democrats remain, well, the Sweden Democrats: the newspaper"revealed 24 SD politicians who either had a history in Nazi organizations or who expressed themselves racially or hatefully online." And one of the party's prominent Riksdag members, Markus Wiechel, has been outed for referring to a female party leader as a "piss pussy, an old darling without competence." Also "Satan's pussy" and "bitch." He sounds nice.
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 26794
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Dec 02, 2018 1:04 pm

. . . all right we are two nations . . .

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 26794
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:05 pm

. . . all right we are two nations . . .

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has No Life
Posts: 12138
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am
Custom Title: Lost in Translation
Location: Safely stored in my own mind

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:59 am

Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

User avatar
Balsamo
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2079
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:29 pm

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Balsamo » Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:25 pm

Just came across this surprising poll from France, after 5 weeks of trouble.
If the presidential election (2022) were to be held tomorrow, the results of the first round would stand like this:
Marine Le Pen 27 - 27.5% (+6)
Emanuel Macron 25% (+1)
Francois Fillon (LR, traditional right) 13% (-7)
Jean-Luc Melanchon (France insoumise) 13% (-6,6)
A socialist candidate would be around 9%

One has to keep in mind that the "yellow vest movement" was supported by about 70-75% of the population (at the start of the movement), those who did not support seems to stick with the President (meanwhile his disaffection rate reached 76%!!). The big question would be how many would still vote for him in the second round.
The only winner seems to be MLP, who kept quite during the crisis, while JLM who openly supported the protest movement seems to pay a high price for that, which seems to confirm the apolitical character of the protests.
The traditional parties are still brain dead and don't profit from the president's disgrace.

Marine Le Pen got most of her votes from the "workers" (blue collars?) with 58%.
Could she win in 2022?

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 26794
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:44 am

. . . all right we are two nations . . .

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 26794
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:54 pm

Balsamo wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:25 pm
Just came across this surprising poll from France, after 5 weeks of trouble.
If the presidential election (2022) were to be held tomorrow, the results of the first round would stand like this:
Marine Le Pen 27 - 27.5% (+6)
Emanuel Macron 25% (+1)
Francois Fillon (LR, traditional right) 13% (-7)
Jean-Luc Melanchon (France insoumise) 13% (-6,6)
A socialist candidate would be around 9% . . .

Marine Le Pen got most of her votes from the "workers" (blue collars?) with 58%.
Could she win in 2022?
I think that Macron misunderstood the nature of his vote in the 2nd round, mistaking rejection of Le Pen with endorsement of his program. He has governed as though his program has been embraced and his person is above mere politics. This fundamental error on Macron's part may end up shifting support to the right, as Mélenchon has failed to capitalize on Macron's predicament.
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

User avatar
Balsamo
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2079
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:29 pm

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Balsamo » Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:01 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:54 pm
Balsamo wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:25 pm
Just came across this surprising poll from France, after 5 weeks of trouble.
If the presidential election (2022) were to be held tomorrow, the results of the first round would stand like this:
Marine Le Pen 27 - 27.5% (+6)
Emanuel Macron 25% (+1)
Francois Fillon (LR, traditional right) 13% (-7)
Jean-Luc Melanchon (France insoumise) 13% (-6,6)
A socialist candidate would be around 9% . . .

Marine Le Pen got most of her votes from the "workers" (blue collars?) with 58%.
Could she win in 2022?
I think that Macron misunderstood the nature of his vote in the 2nd round, mistaking rejection of Le Pen with endorsement of his program. He has governed as though his program has been embraced and his person is above mere politics. This fundamental error on Macron's part may end up shifting support to the right, as Mélenchon has failed to capitalize on Macron's predicament.
Quite right.
What stroke me was that the polls did not ask or publish what would be the result of a hypothetical second round. There is still times for the situation to settle before 2022, but in my opinion the danger of seing a far right candidate elected has never been so real. The main issue is that the "traditional right" seems completely ignored. For the first time in history, all the traditional "democratic parties" together do not reach 50% of the votes.
In another poll, it has been signaled that Dupont-Aignan (remember the candidate of "Debout, la France" ( "France, Stand up" ) who endorsed MLP for the second round of the 2016 election is now close to be the less unpopular politician (in today's times, the most popular) from the lot, almost equal to MLP.

Both Dupont-Aignan and MLP have very cleverly - i admit - surfed on the crisis, that is, bringing support but outside any political context, preventing themselves - something Melenchon didn't/failed to do - from trying to capitalize politically. When interviewed, they actually answered as "citizen" instead as promoting their program. This was really clever.
This yellow vest thing is not a revolution or an insurrection in a political sense, it is only the expression of anger, and therefore has to be understood as yet another symptom - a very important one - of the current regime crisis which affect not only France, but basically the whole Europe. The "Gillets Jaunes" dont really know what they want, but they know what they do not want. And this is the subtlety President Macron and his government, but also the traditional parties, as well as the traditional "popular forces" which in France are the Unions, have missed.
And this subtlety is highly problematic, because the current ruling class just don't have the remedies. And this is what makes the situation really dangerous. More and more people are just ready to jump in whatever political wagon that would not speak the traditional way. Matteo Salvini from the League is breaking records of popularity, because he is different. Last time i checked, 37% of the Italian voters would vote for him and his party! Considering the fact that the League has always been a political representation of Northern Italy, the score is insane.
Even in Spain, still marked by Franco's dictatorship, is not immune with a unknown far right party scoring 16% in the last regional election in Andalusia (South).

The worst being that my children cannot wait to go back to Europe which is plunging into a crisis of big proportion. I don't trust the EU leaders to amend themselves. Europe needs a Bernie Sanders, and it needs him know.

User avatar
Jeff_36
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5073
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:45 pm
Location: At the hundredth meridian, where the great plains begin

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Jeff_36 » Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:22 pm

On the flip side - every time I see someone in a yellow vest these days I grind my {!#%@} teeth.

In all seriousness: I have stayed away these past few weeks out of a sense of embarrassment at being wrong and disappointment in Macron for his retreat in the face of the street. But I can't stay away forerver.

I don't think that Le Pen can win in 2022. She will make it into the runoff but much like 2017 strategic voting by center leaning supporters of LR and PS will could be her downfall.

I alsd doubt that we have seen the last of Marion-Marichel Le Pen either - just a hunch.
Last edited by Jeff_36 on Sat Dec 22, 2018 2:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has No Life
Posts: 12138
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am
Custom Title: Lost in Translation
Location: Safely stored in my own mind

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat Dec 22, 2018 1:17 am

In other news apparently a candy bar pissed off the far-right:
https://www-m.cnn.com/2018/12/19/europe ... n.com%252F
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

User avatar
Balsamo
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2079
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:29 pm

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Balsamo » Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:20 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:22 pm
On the flip side - every time I see someone in a yellow vest these days I grind my {!#%@} teeth.

In all seriousness: I have stayed away these past few weeks out of a sense of embarrassment at being wrong and disappointment in Macron for his retreat in the face of the street. But I can't stay away forerver.

I don't think that Le Pen can win in 2022. She will make it into the runoff but much like 2017 strategic voting by center leaning supporters of LR and PS will could be her downfall.

I alsd doubt that we have seen the last of Marion-Marichel Le Pen either - just a hunch.
We will have some elections that will clarify the situation. The main problem being that - whether Marine Le Pen is elected or not - the Republican Regime as it exists today is dying. Whoever will be elected will lack of the most basic legitimacy and will be rejected within months if his program is to keep on this neo-liberal policy that has shown its limits.
Who would have thought 20 years ago that Italy would plebiscite a far right candidate? Salvini is today the most popular politician in Italy with 60% of approval. It has not been seen, even in the "good days" of Berlusconi, since Mussolini i guess (ironic).
Most post war political parties, the traditional ones, have all disappeared. That shows that it was time to reform the political representation which was no longer adapted to the sociological realities of a changed population.
The only certainty in this political mess is that the neo-liberal policies, as defined by the EU and applied in all european countries but those who chose the dissidence (Hungary for example), failed to even maintain the most basic standard of living in Europe. The new generation is not stupid, it realizes that they live in worse conditions than their parents, who already 20 years ago, were living in worse condition than theirs. This cannot go on any longer. The vast majority of the European people are now clearly living in fears, and fear can create unexpected situation.

The most striking element of today's contestation is precisely its apolitical aspect. As i wrote above, the people do not really knows what it wants, but it is gathered by what they do NOT want any longer.
The fear being that the traditional political parties are not prepared to this kind of situation, they have been stuck for so long in their logic, ideology (or lack of), their certainty that their policies is the only way to go, obeying blind to imperatives that seem to fall from the sky, from above, that they lack the vocabulary to even talk to the people who are angry.
The reality in Europe is quite simple: too much poverty, quite simple! And worse you have to work hard to be poor, and this is not in the "social contract" (as defined by Locke or Rousseau) which is the root of the European democratic system which is very different from the American one in the sense that IT IS NOT A GIVEN, if you understand what i mean.
If there is one thing that European history has shown is that a population can turn its back to democracy if this democracy is unable to fulfill its part of the "social contracts".

Michael Moore should really return to Europe and focus on the dark side of the system, rather than just praising free college and free hospitals. The reality is really different.
Here is an example i have been recently told.
France: a graduated engineer, in computers and new technologies, working freelance in Paris. You would suspect a good live as he has work, but in reality he is struggling as after all form of taxes, he has to live on a 1.200 euro wages in a city where lodging is around 50 euros/m2 for rent. He survives because his parents have good savings and are helping him, that is basically the picture. Everyone i know, even in the upper classes, are living beyond their means, thanks to their parents savings.
But who is gonna help this engineer's children if he has some?

My best friends has a really good job, he is quite brilliant, but also freelance (tough thing in Belgium), but he managed to charge a very famous company he works for 20.000 euros a months. Seems nice, of course, well after all the taxes and other forms of social dues (the ones who supposedly pay for all the free stuff), he is left with around 6.000 euros. He has a big house and three children. Because of taxation on fuel, it costs him 500 euros a month only to keep his house warm, pays 400 euros of taxes on houses, 300 euros for the water, another 300 for the electricity, his mortgage 500. So basically he starts the month with 4000.
Given that he was lucky to have a very good education, he wants the same for his children, not only is that time consuming, but it costs a lot, so you can add another 1000 to the bill. Dentists are no longer covered and are insanely expensive, he lives in the suburbs so he needs a car, well gaz costs about 7$ a gallon and the government still planes to raise the 140% tax it already has on gaz! (which is the root of the yellow vest movement by the way)...In the end, he is not able to make any savings - which is usual in America but very recent in Belgium - so again, who is going to help the children if their are in needs?
And i don't even have to say that very few makes 20.000 euros before tax. Point being that his parents with half this salary were living very very comfortably, he does not that much with twice the gross salary.

When we talk together, none of us can even understand or realize how the vast majority managed to live with under 1.500 euros a months. But this is the reality.
It is just a social dead end, very materialistic and far from any ideologies and political convictions. The whole system is just broken and the current leaders not only have no cure, but they are living in denial, in a medical way, so they all rushed to sign the Marrakesh pact on migration without the consent of the vast majority of the population, but with good conscience. It is a political suicide.

Add to this that most European States (with the exception of Germany) are just broke, and have lost any fiscal leverage, you can picture the crisis.

The picture is actually very similar to the one in France.
There are still 3 years left, but i am not optimistic this time. As you might remember, i wrote after Macron got elected, that i did not dare to happen in the case Macron would fail...and he is failing big until now.

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has No Life
Posts: 12138
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am
Custom Title: Lost in Translation
Location: Safely stored in my own mind

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:47 pm

Thanks, Balsamo. That’s a very nice summary of the reality that Europeans face.

I think the key to all that is fear and the realization that the system is failing, that democracy is all well and good but it doesn’t put gas in the car or food on the table.

I see that here. Fear is a powerful incentive and causes people to abandon principles that no longer seem important.

It’s scary as hell.
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

User avatar
Balsamo
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2079
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:29 pm

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Balsamo » Sat Dec 22, 2018 11:23 pm

Thanks Jeffk

Seems i was clear this time... ;)

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 26794
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:48 pm

. . . all right we are two nations . . .

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has No Life
Posts: 12138
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am
Custom Title: Lost in Translation
Location: Safely stored in my own mind

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:49 pm

Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 26794
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:12 pm

Two Swedish newspapers - Aftonbladet and Dagens Nyheter - are reporting a 4-party deal to form Sweden's government.

The reports are sketchy and suggest that the Social Democrats will lead the government (or perhaps be the only party in the government) with support from the Greens, the Center party, and the Liberals.

The agreement is predicated on Social Democratic concessions on the country's labor law, housing regulations, and flight tax.

With the Social Democrats having moved to the right the past 2-3 years, and the Center party especially away from the right, the basis may have emerged for such an accord (and for the demise of the right's Alliance). The distaste of the Center and Liberals for the Sweden Democrats, which Moderate leader Ulf Kristersson seems to have failed to appreciate, has been the driving factor in the negotiations.

Aftonbladet's report says that the 4 parties have agreed the outlines of the deal, including who will be PM, and will fill in details over the weekend before presenting the new government to speaker of the Riksdag next week. Also, the deal will need ratification from the parties, which could prove difficult especially in the case of the Liberals.
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has No Life
Posts: 12138
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am
Custom Title: Lost in Translation
Location: Safely stored in my own mind

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:26 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:48 pm
long read: ways to think about populism
On a related note, what populists do to democracies:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... mp/578878/
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 26794
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:40 pm

Thanks, I like Mounk's pieces a lot, they usually are quite thought provoking - this one, which takes an interesting (and common sense) approach, no exception. (I had friends when in grad school who knew Ernesto Laclau - yet I am not at all convinced by the Laclau-Mouffe school of thought.)
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has No Life
Posts: 12138
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am
Custom Title: Lost in Translation
Location: Safely stored in my own mind

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:22 pm

I find that very interesting. I think it’s self-evident what populists do but the examination of different populists was very telling.

There’s no doubt in my mind that Trump would behave the way these other populists do except he is constrained by US law and the Constitution. What is troubling to me is the lack of blowback from Republicans (even though we see some breaches here and there). Naturally Trumplings would happily see their God-Emperor trample over Democracy here in the US if it would “drain the swamp” and give the orange one the freedom to do what he wants.

I read today where even some of the so-called “Freedom Caucus” is cautioning Trump not to declare a state of emergency to build the monument to his ego, aka the wall. They are concerned about the precedent it would set for future presidents (read “Democrat”) and probably not survive scrutiny in the court system.

Odds are Trump does it anyway.
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 26794
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:25 pm

Sweden: the risks inherent in the new Social Democratic + Green government are great - 1) the opposition Alliance, rather than taking power, collapses; 2) the Moderates and Christian Democrats are now in the opposition with the Sweden Democrats; 3) the tacit alignment of the Moderates, Christian Democrats, and Sweden Democrats likely becomes explicit; and 4) the new government is both on a weak footing and taking up policies that may well alienate the base of the largest party (the Social Democrats). It looks like a wild ride, with the Moderates' leader blasting his erstwhile colleagues and wishing the new project ill - and one Christian Democrat leader insulting Annie Lööf as a "Quisling," prompting the Center party leader to remind the Christian Democrats who Quisling was and what the metaphor suggests.
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 26794
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:29 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:22 pm
I find that very interesting. I think it’s self-evident what populists do but the examination of different populists was very telling.

There’s no doubt in my mind that Trump would behave the way these other populists do except he is constrained by US law and the Constitution. What is troubling to me is the lack of blowback from Republicans (even though we see some breaches here and there). Naturally Trumplings would happily see their God-Emperor trample over Democracy here in the US if it would “drain the swamp” and give the orange one the freedom to do what he wants.

I read today where even some of the so-called “Freedom Caucus” is cautioning Trump not to declare a state of emergency to build the monument to his ego, aka the wall. They are concerned about the precedent it would set for future presidents (read “Democrat”) and probably not survive scrutiny in the court system.

Odds are Trump does it anyway.
LOL he decided against the emergency a couple hours ago, as his conservative allies were getting cold feet. I think many Republicans worry that they have not tampered with the electoral system enough to guarantee the outcome and fear the precedent should they go down to defeat in 2020. Matt Gaetz, e.g., was worrying today that the Democrats would declare a national emergency to institute transgender bathrooms, ya know, non-gender-specific like the ones most people have in their homes.
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has No Life
Posts: 12138
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am
Custom Title: Lost in Translation
Location: Safely stored in my own mind

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:38 pm

Hey...I was wrong.
:D

In a way I wanted him to do it so he would get humiliated yet again.

It’s another thing I’ve said, doing stupid stuff and getting away with it sets a really bad precedent. That was the worry I read about, declaring state of emergencies to circumvent the Constitution and US law means the next president can also do it.
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 26794
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:07 am

Sweden: Observers and principals alike have been taking for granted the Left party's assent to the grand cross-"border" 4-party deal to return Löfven as prime minister. The vote in the Riksdag requires that the Left not vote against the proposed government- otherwise the new government will not have enough votes to succeed. At the same time, the deal institutes key right-sponsored economic policies (notably in housing, the labor law, union protections, the public sector, and taxes) and includes agreement that the Left party shall not have influence on the government.

None of this is sitting well with the Left party, which said this weekend that they must consider voting against the proposed government. Former Left party leader Ulla Hoffman explains, "It is not the Left Party's thing to implement right politics. Those I talked to in the party think the same thing. Somewhere there is a self-esteem and an ideology in the body. This says that one cannot vote for a policy that goes completely against it." Thus, the Left party today underwent what its leader, Jonas Sjöstedt, called "our own internal process."

The Left party made its decision tonight, but will not announce it until tomorrow.

The irony is this: if, for self-respect and relevance, the Lefts vote no, they will doom the deal and open the door to a full-on right-wing government.
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

User avatar
Jeff_36
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5073
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:45 pm
Location: At the hundredth meridian, where the great plains begin

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Jeff_36 » Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:21 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:54 pm
Balsamo wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:25 pm
Just came across this surprising poll from France, after 5 weeks of trouble.
If the presidential election (2022) were to be held tomorrow, the results of the first round would stand like this:
Marine Le Pen 27 - 27.5% (+6)
Emanuel Macron 25% (+1)
Francois Fillon (LR, traditional right) 13% (-7)
Jean-Luc Melanchon (France insoumise) 13% (-6,6)
A socialist candidate would be around 9% . . .

Marine Le Pen got most of her votes from the "workers" (blue collars?) with 58%.
Could she win in 2022?
I think that Macron misunderstood the nature of his vote in the 2nd round, mistaking rejection of Le Pen with endorsement of his program. He has governed as though his program has been embraced and his person is above mere politics. This fundamental error on Macron's part may end up shifting support to the right, as Mélenchon has failed to capitalize on Macron's predicament.
The Yellow vests aren't helping - from what I've read a substantial percentage of them support Le Pen and those who support other parties are likely to shift their support to her in the event of the elimination of their first choice in the initial round of voting.

I really resent them, for this and other reasons.

User avatar
Jeff_36
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5073
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:45 pm
Location: At the hundredth meridian, where the great plains begin

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Jeff_36 » Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:23 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:26 pm
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:48 pm
long read: ways to think about populism
On a related note, what populists do to democracies:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... mp/578878/
"How Democracies Die" Steven Levitsky and Daniel Ziblatt is, IMO, the definitive account of this trend. Years from now it will stand (along with Snyder's "Road to Unfreedom" as the defining accounts of the 2010's.

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 26794
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:39 pm

Sweden update: The Left party has announced the decision made at yesterday's party meeting: The Lefts are not prepared, "in the current situation," to support the proposed Social Democratic-Green government.

Party leader Jonas Sjöstedt: "We see problems. We are both surprised and disappointed by how far Stefan Löfven has been prepared to go to the right." In the agreement, he said, the Social Democrats, Greens, Center party, and Liberal party are "trying to push us out of normal political influence." Sjöstedt made clear that without changes in the government agreement, the Left's support will not be forthcoming. Likely the sticking point is the "no influence" plank the the government agreement.

OTOH for the "bourgeois" parties - Center and Liberals - to break with the Alliance required written guarantees, and reopening the core questions would b a very fraught exercise.

The Left's surprise decision puts a bit of a spanner in the works and has the political situation in a bit of chaos this week. For now, the emergence of the Sweden Democrats has destroyed the right bloc (the Alliance) and is threatening the historic center-left bloc (with the Left threatening to break with the Social Democrats and Greens).

Sjöstedt said that the Left favors Löfven for prime minister but wants more time for negotiations concerning the Left's issues. The Greens also want mortise and welcome further deliberations with the Left; they argue against equating the Left with the Sweden Democrats, as the Liberals and Center have done.

Löfven states that he is open to discussion but that the agreement on the government - including the provision that the Left party "will not have influence over the political direction in Sweden during the coming term" - cannot change. Standing by the "no influence" provision, Löfven this morning stated, paradoxically, that he would cooperate with the Left.

Annie Lööf, Center party leader (and driver of the government deal), said today of the "no influence" clause, "I'm surprised it's seen as a provocation." Which in itself is a remarkable comment. She added, reiterating the Center party's longstanding position, that the Sweden Democrats and the Left are to be seen as "outer edge parties" and then confused issues warning against equating the two parties in any way.

The Liberals have said that they will refuse discussion with the Left. Leader Jan Björklund: "The agreement is fixed. The direction of politics is shaped by us four. When it comes to the issues covered by the agreement, we do not negotiate with other parties." But Björklund added, confusingly, that any one of the four parties may speak with another party.

The far right Christian Democrats are not making a public statement today (they are not part of the government deal, anyway).

Observers in the Social Democrat camp believe that the Left party simply needs time to come around and will eventually back the proposed government. Stig-Björn Ljunggren: "Basically, he [Sjöstedt] requires a little respect so he can return to his somewhat grumpy party mates and say that at least he gets S [Social Democrats] to move a little. Sjöstedt also wants guarantees that V [the Left] may be included as normal, and that such agreements have been made with S if earlier should be fixed."

If these commentators are wrong, and the Left does not eventually accept the deal, Ulf Kristersson, leader of the right-wing Moderates, would likely come back in play for prime minister.
. . . all right we are two nations . . .