Nazi Germany and the Independent State of Croatia

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Re: Nazi Germany and the Independent State of Croatia

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Feb 27, 2019 11:31 pm

The Croatians thought of themselves as the bulwark - and this goes back deep into Balkan history - of the West against the East. The Ustasha narrative of Croatian history positioned Croats as a Gothic people, without kinship to Serbs. Serbs, in this narrative, were without rights in the region as they were newcomers transplanted to the region by the Ottomans; here, the ethnic identities overlapped with religion. But the Serbs were also depicted as tools of the Austro-Hungarian empire and then oppressors during the Yugoslavia period.

Although the Germans favored the Croats, and battered the Serbs in their own right, I don't recall the Nazis developing views on Croatian history. Nothing I've read (or at least can recall) speaks to the explicit question of eligibility for Reich citizenship but that would have been impossible. The Germans viewed the Croatians as better than Serbs, who, as Slavs in the Nazi and Croatian narrative, were Untermenschen and enemies. The Ustasha defined themselves as Aryans and enacted racial legislation on this basis, but my recollection is that the Nazis didn't accept this, either. Also, other than Kasche, the Germans looked down on and were exasperated by the NDH. Their principal allies in former Yugoslavia were the Volksdeutsche. Tomasevich's conceptual framework is that the NDH was not an independent country but a territory occupied by - and plundered, exploited, and ill-used by - the Third Reich.

I'll poke around in some books tonight or tomorrow on this.
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Re: Nazi Germany and the Independent State of Croatia

Post by Goody67 » Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:01 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 11:31 pm
The Croatians thought of themselves as the bulwark - and this goes back deep into Balkan history - of the West against the East. The Ustasha narrative of Croatian history positioned Croats as a Gothic people, without kinship to Serbs. Serbs, in this narrative, were without rights in the region as they were newcomers transplanted to the region by the Ottomans; here, the ethnic identities overlapped with religion. But the Serbs were also depicted as tools of the Austro-Hungarian empire and then oppressors during the Yugoslavia period.

Although the Germans favored the Croats, and battered the Serbs in their own right, I don't recall the Nazis developing views on Croatian history. Nothing I've read (or at least can recall) speaks to the explicit question of eligibility for Reich citizenship but that would have been impossible. The Germans viewed the Croatians as better than Serbs, who, as Slavs in the Nazi and Croatian narrative, were Untermenschen and enemies. The Ustasha defined themselves as Aryans and enacted racial legislation on this basis, but my recollection is that the Nazis didn't accept this, either. Also, other than Kasche, the Germans looked down on and were exasperated by the NDH. Their principal allies in former Yugoslavia were the Volksdeutsche. Tomasevich's conceptual framework is that the NDH was not an independent country but a territory occupied by - and plundered, exploited, and ill-used by - the Third Reich.

I'll poke around in some books tonight or tomorrow on this.
According to The Table Talks, Hitler said in July 1941, "the Croats are certainly more Germanic than Slav."

Did the Nazis ever ban any sexual relations or marriages between Germans and Croats? They never banned sexual relations and marriages between Germans and Czechs, so I don't think they did between Germans and Croats.
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Re: Nazi Germany and the Independent State of Croatia

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Mar 06, 2019 11:32 am

Not that I am aware of.
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Re: Nazi Germany and the Independent State of Croatia

Post by Goody67 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:12 am

Slavic? Various ethnic groups that today live in the Greater German Reich are primarily of Germanic origin, but are said in the press and publications to be Slavic. These peoples themselves, the Slavs and Croats, do not want to be Slavic, and are not such. The term Slav is not a racial concept, but rather stems from national-ethnic attitudes.
- Guidelines on the War, Cuts in Food Rations, and Language Choice, 1942

Redner-Schnellinformation, Lieferung 24, 4 January 1942.

https://research.calvin.edu/german-prop ... /rsi24.htm
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Re: Nazi Germany and the Independent State of Croatia

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:44 pm

According to Aristotle Kallis, the Nazis did not view the Croats as Aryans but for their part the Croats tried to align with Nazi racial ideology whilst the Nazis considered allowing modest rewards for the Croats after the war, on pragmatic and utilitarian grounds.
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Re: Nazi Germany and the Independent State of Croatia

Post by Denying-History » Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:02 pm

Goody67 wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:01 am
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 11:31 pm
The Croatians thought of themselves as the bulwark - and this goes back deep into Balkan history - of the West against the East. The Ustasha narrative of Croatian history positioned Croats as a Gothic people, without kinship to Serbs. Serbs, in this narrative, were without rights in the region as they were newcomers transplanted to the region by the Ottomans; here, the ethnic identities overlapped with religion. But the Serbs were also depicted as tools of the Austro-Hungarian empire and then oppressors during the Yugoslavia period.

Although the Germans favored the Croats, and battered the Serbs in their own right, I don't recall the Nazis developing views on Croatian history. Nothing I've read (or at least can recall) speaks to the explicit question of eligibility for Reich citizenship but that would have been impossible. The Germans viewed the Croatians as better than Serbs, who, as Slavs in the Nazi and Croatian narrative, were Untermenschen and enemies. The Ustasha defined themselves as Aryans and enacted racial legislation on this basis, but my recollection is that the Nazis didn't accept this, either. Also, other than Kasche, the Germans looked down on and were exasperated by the NDH. Their principal allies in former Yugoslavia were the Volksdeutsche. Tomasevich's conceptual framework is that the NDH was not an independent country but a territory occupied by - and plundered, exploited, and ill-used by - the Third Reich.

I'll poke around in some books tonight or tomorrow on this.
According to The Table Talks, Hitler said in July 1941, "the Croats are certainly more Germanic than Slav."

Did the Nazis ever ban any sexual relations or marriages between Germans and Croats? They never banned sexual relations and marriages between Germans and Czechs, so I don't think they did between Germans and Croats.
Careful with the English edition of Table Talks. It’s based on a French translation that altered statements of / added sentences that did not exist in the German original. Richard Evens documents this in his book “Lying about Hitler”. Richard Carrier also was the first to document this:
https://www.jstor.org/stable/1432747

His conclusions about Hitlers religious stances are disputable but his findings are not.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: Nazi Germany and the Independent State of Croatia

Post by Denying-History » Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:19 pm

Oh and on intermarriage of Croats and Germans - I didn’t see anything about a ban in Yeomans “Vision of Annihilation” or Goldstein & Goldstein’s “The Holocaust in Croatia”. Tudjman also didn’t cover anything like that in “Horrors of War”, so I’d image no ban/restriction existed.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: Nazi Germany and the Independent State of Croatia

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Aug 24, 2019 5:15 am

a later look at Table Talk with findings in line with those of Carrier: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/1 ... 9415619689
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Re: Nazi Germany and the Independent State of Croatia

Post by Goody67 » Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:34 pm

Denying-History wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:02 pm
Careful with the English edition of Table Talks. It’s based on a French translation that altered statements of / added sentences that did not exist in the German original. Richard Evens documents this in his book “Lying about Hitler”. Richard Carrier also was the first to document this:
https://www.jstor.org/stable/1432747

His conclusions about Hitlers religious stances are disputable but his findings are not.
Granted.

In January 1942, the Nazis released a guideline and stated:
Slavic? Various ethnic groups that today live in the Greater German Reich are primarily of Germanic origin, but are said in the press and publications to be Slavic. These peoples themselves, the Slavs and Croats, do not want to be Slavic, and are not such. The term Slav is not a racial concept, but rather stems from national-ethnic attitudes.

Promoting the use of this term is, therefore, politically unwise, since some enemy forces among these peoples attempt to use the concept of Slav as a basis for political subversion against the Reich community (e.g., with terms such as “All-Slavism,” Pan-Slavism,” etc.).

This term, therefore, is to be permanently removed from our vocabulary.
Redner-Schnellinformation, Lieferung 24, 4 January 1942.

https://research.calvin.edu/german-prop ... /rsi24.htm
“When one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion.” - Robert Pirsig