The Nocebo Effect - Placebos Evil Twin

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zeuzzz
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The Nocebo Effect - Placebos Evil Twin

Post by zeuzzz » Sun Nov 01, 2015 4:27 pm

Stumbled across this meta-analysis of people with parkisons. The nocebo is basically the opposite of the placebo effect, ie, the beleif that a med will make you worse will make you worse, and is independent of the drugs effects, but a subjective one.

Stathis, P; Smpiliris, M; Konitsiotis, S; Mitsikostas, DD (March 2013). "Nocebo as a potential confounding factor in clinical trials for Parkinson's disease treatment: a meta-analysis.". European journal of neurology : the official journal of the European Federation of Neurological Societies 20 (3): 527–33.

Also this was at the bottom of the wiki article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nocebo
Writing from his extensive experience of treating cancer (including more than 1,000 melanoma cases) at Sydney Hospital, Milton (1973) warned of the impact of the delivery of a prognosis, and how many of his patients, upon receiving their prognosis, simply turned their face to the wall and died a premature death: "... there is a small group of patients in whom the realization of impending death is a blow so terrible that they are quite unable to adjust to it, and they die rapidly before the malignancy seems to have developed enough to cause death. This problem of self-willed death is in some ways analogous to the death produced in primitive peoples by witchcraft ("Pointing the bone")." (p.1435)
^ That surely has ethical considerations for when doctors give their prognosis?

The point could maybe be made for at least adjusting say the time of the diagnosis it by the factor known that the nocebo effect is documented to effect the mortality time?

So the placebo effect seems a rather double edged sword, dependent on the practitioners delivery (people will tend to get side effects more if the practitioner mentions some of the side effects than if they do not) and also on the person using the medications beliefs about how effective the drugs will be (the more skeptical of it, the more harmful it will be)

Trying to find some more large scale meta-analysis based specifically on the nocebo/placebo effect. Doesn't seem to be many around.

Found these though When words are painful: Unraveling the mechanisms of the nocebo effect
Neuroscience, Volume 147, Issue 2, 29 June 2007, Pages 260–271

Conscious Expectation and Unconscious Conditioning in Analgesic, Motor, and Hormonal Placebo/Nocebo Responses
The Journal of Neuroscience 23.10 (2003): 4315-4323.

Seems to be related on one level to raised cortisol during the meeting; but I can't see that being a universal mechanism to explain the entire phenomena.

Also; Can there be an honest placebo/nocebo in general?

In the published literature the placebo is 80% the effectiveness of Prozac for example. In the unpublished literature, reveled by an FOI request, the drug companies found it was 100% as effective. http://www.motherjones.com/politics/200 ... or-placebo
Last edited by zeuzzz on Sun Nov 01, 2015 5:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Nocebo Effect - Placebos Evil Twin

Post by scrmbldggs » Sun Nov 01, 2015 4:51 pm

Doesn't this sorta kinda belong into the Healthcare subforum? There are a few mentions of the nocebo effect...
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Re: The Nocebo Effect - Placebos Evil Twin

Post by zeuzzz » Sun Nov 01, 2015 4:56 pm

I should've post it in brain/mind/consciousness really. Since these are really mental/subjective effects that have various psychosomatic induced psychogenic changes.
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Re: The Nocebo Effect - Placebos Evil Twin

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Nov 01, 2015 5:34 pm

zeuzzz wrote:I should've post it in brain/mind/consciousness really. Since these are really mental/subjective effects that have various psychosomatic induced psychogenic changes.
You remind me of that Wayans brother doing his skit on black, usually prisoners or preachers, misusing words that sound good but are entirely misplaced, even made up. Here you use real words but incorrectly: "psychosomatic induced psychogenic changes" /// Sounds good I suppose, and maybe too close? But "induced" is inherent in psychosomatic and mostly redundant depending on what you mean to say. Then you triple down with psychogenic which again says the same thing.

thumbing through your word a day calendar? Not the worst thing in the world to do. But you do it too much of the time and it detracts from your credibility.

I SAY: carry on....but brevity is the soul of wit.....and you would benefit YOURSELF by picking up a dictionary now and then. You know...........more than just pick it up?

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Re: The Nocebo Effect - Placebos Evil Twin

Post by zeuzzz » Sun Nov 01, 2015 5:49 pm

No idea I'm afraid Bobbo. Those were the adequate words to use, as far as I can see. Maybe you can reword it for me?
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Re: The Nocebo Effect - Placebos Evil Twin

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Nov 01, 2015 5:54 pm

zzzzzzz== it would have been more appropriate/standard/less redundant to say: "effects that have various psychosomatic changes." or "...effects that have various psychogenic changes." Maybe its ok to throw in the unneeded "induced" because English tends to be a bit redundant by way of its Anglo/Saxon heritage/roots. See how we tend to say things twice already? Three times is beyond the pale.
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Re: The Nocebo Effect - Placebos Evil Twin

Post by zeuzzz » Sun Nov 01, 2015 6:26 pm

Hang on is this an English lesson or a thread about the subject the thread is about?

Either-way, thanks those recommendations bobbo.
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Re: The Nocebo Effect - Placebos Evil Twin

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Nov 01, 2015 9:26 pm

This is a thread about what the subject is about. "We think with words, and flower with Ideas." and when the words posted are just a mish mash of good sounding falderall, then the masturbatory nature of the exercise becomes clear.

Even BS should not be triple-down redundant.

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Re: The Nocebo Effect - Placebos Evil Twin

Post by zeuzzz » Sun Nov 01, 2015 9:52 pm

No.

Address the points raised now or be quiet.

If you don't understand the words I use, fine; PM me. And I will explain.
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Re: The Nocebo Effect - Placebos Evil Twin

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Nov 02, 2015 12:01 am

zzzzzzzzzzz==isn't the point abundantly clear than I do understand the words you use..............and that you don't?

Rather than me PM you, YOU should read and use a dictionary, or moreso a form book? Or repeat high school English?
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Re: The Nocebo Effect - Placebos Evil Twin

Post by zeuzzz » Mon Nov 02, 2015 12:37 am

Well this is now largely pointless.

Thanks bobbo for the totally unnecessary derail from the original subject.
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