Is this really the best there is?

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Jeff_36 » Fri Oct 23, 2015 4:32 am

chimp jr. is all over the place.

And ICDTN is an imbecile if he thinks that the shower disguise thing originated in Late August out of AB when it was reported in early August out of Treblinka and Lublin

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Monstrous » Fri Oct 23, 2015 12:09 pm

Monstrous has discovered that his pdf reader has a search function.

On the origins of the shower story in Majdanek:
"the selected inmates who were transferred elsewhere did actually disappear from the
camp, those who remained behind became convinced that their departed com-
rades had been murdered. This conviction was strengthened by the fact that
before leaving the camp, the selected inmates went through the showers and
delousing, i.e., through Barracks 41 and 42 where delousing gas chambers
were known to exist. This procedure left the remaining inmates with one pow-
erful impression: their fellow prisoners had been sent to where the gas cham-
bers were; they had not returned; consequently, they had been gassed."
http://holocausthandbooks.com/index.php ... &page_id=5
Last edited by Monstrous on Fri Oct 23, 2015 12:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Monstrous » Fri Oct 23, 2015 12:12 pm

"Delousing as a Cover for Mass-Murder?

It is often claimed in the Holocaust literature that the Germans disguised their extermination facilities as delousing stations with showers and barbers and laundries in order to lull Jews into the gas chambers. From the material already quoted, it should be obvious that a more unlikely arrangement to lull Polish Jews into doing anything would be hard to imagine. The prospect of bathing could have only had the opposite effect. In addition to their fear of showers and bathing generally, it was inevitable that there would have also been many false rumors which could have only compounded the Jewish resistance.

Was the visit of a highly respected professor of hygiene, Professor Pfannenstiel, to Belzec and Treblinka only for the sake of putting on a convincing disguise? His visit makes no real sense unless the purpose of these camps was to do precisely what all other Durchgangslager or transit camps were intended to do, i.e., to delouse and medically examine and possibly quarantine people who were being moved to a new location. Although specific details about Treblinka, Belzec and Sobibor may no longer be available, the planning and organization in general was not a secret. The planning and organization was thoroughly described in German wartime; technical journals such as Gesundheits-Ingenieur and Arbeitseinsatz und Arbeitslosenhilfe. [35]

Basically, each transit camp or Durchgangslager was divided into a "clean" zone and a "dirty" zone with a strictly enforced barrier between the two zones. A delousing station straddled the boundary between the two zones at some point. Each camp was arranged so that new arrivals could only enter the "dirty" zone. To get over to the "clean" zone, they had to pass through the delousing station. Inside the delousing station, each person had to remove all of their clothing and belongings which would then be fumigated with cyanide, or steamed, or else heated with hot air while they took a shower and underwent a thorough medical examination which might include X-rays to determine – their state of health and whether or not they had any contagious diseases such as typhus and tuberculosis. If they failed to pass the exam, they might be sent back to wherever they had come from originally or they might simply be kept in a quarantine area for several weeks. If they passed, they would eventually be sent on, usually to another camp and put to work."
http://codoh.com/library/document/970/

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Oct 23, 2015 12:23 pm

Monstrous wrote:Monstrous has discovered that his pdf reader has a search function.

On the origins of the shower story in Majdanek:
"the selected inmates who were transferred elsewhere did actually disappear from the
camp, those who remained behind became convinced that their departed com-
rades had been murdered. This conviction was strengthened by the fact that
before leaving the camp, the selected inmates went through the showers and
delousing, i.e., through Barracks 41 and 42 where delousing gas chambers
were known to exist. This procedure left the remaining inmates with one pow-
erful impression: their fellow prisoners had been sent to where the gas cham-
bers were; they had not returned; consequently, they had been gassed."
http://holocausthandbooks.com/index.php ... &page_id=5
Apparently Monstrous's search function is faulty for it failed to turn up this information on deaths in the camp:

- SS-Oberscharführer Erich Muhsfeldt (also spelled Mussfeldt) headed up burial, cremation and the crematories, assisted by SS-Unterscharführer Robert Seitz; Muhsfeldt came to KL Lublin in November 1941 and was assigned this duty by the commandant

- the two SS men were assisted by teams of SK members, each of which was gassed at some point (testimony of Kapo Ernst Fischer) and replaced with another team (the teams were composed as follows: late 1941 - Polish Jews - Seitz referred to "Polish and Jewish prisoners of war"); as of March 1942 - Russian POWs; then a team of French and German Jews during the height of the exterminations; finally after Aktion Erntefest - Russian POWs again)

- phase I (November 1941 - June 1942): corpses of prisoners who died in the camp or were killed there were buried beyond Field V (testimony of Muhsfeldt and Seitz)

- phase II (June - October 1942): corpses were disposed of in the old crematorium ("built between Fields I and II, situated diagonally across from the bathing barracks and, later, the gas chambers," as I've previously described); the ovens (probably two of them) were oil-fueled and built by Kori company (they were brought from Sachsenhausen); Hauptscharführer Klein instructed Muhsfeldt on operation of the overns; witnesses (survivor Wanda Bialas, for example) describe observing from the nearby laundry corpses arriving at the crematorium on carts, as described upthread; according to Muhsfeldt's testimony, "With round-the-clock operation, each oven could incinerate about 100 bodies per day," not a number that could keep up with the camp's production of dead bodies

- phase III (November 1942 - January 1943): the old crematory was taken off line in November, just as the gassing program began; at this time, Muhsfeldt resorted to burying the corpses of dead/killed inmates again; many bodies were buried in the Krepiecki forest - the SK crew fo these burials numbered about 20

- phase IV (February - late October 1943): Muhsfeldt, as we've discussed elsewhere, went to Auschwitz to learn techniques for open-pit burning of corpses (his trip was on 19 February 1943); Muhsfeldt was subsequently assigned exhumation and burning of the corpses previously buried in Krepiecki forest and behind Field V; the technique, according to testimony from Seitz and Muhsfeldt, utilized grates made of truck chassis placed over pits, methane as a fuel, and grinding of the ashes using an iron plate and iron rammer; the burning of the previously buried corpses was complete by October 1943; Muhsfeldt's crew also burned the bodies of newly killed prisoners in this same manner during this period

- phase IVa (November 1943): starting on 4 November, Muhsfeldt burned the corpses of the 18,000 victims of Aktion Erntefest (Muhsfeldt's testimony gave only 17,000) in a similar manner but with a few nuances - wooden grates were used, grinding of ashes was done by a gasoline-powered mill; the work was checked by SD officials from the Lublin office; Aufseherinnen testimony reported a terrible, strong odor around the camp from this operation

- phase V (January - May 1944): construction of the new crematory was begun already in September 1943 but not completed until January 1944 - again with Kori company building the installation; this crematorium had larger capacity and was coke fueled, a cheaper solution; according to Muhsfeldt's testimony, "We didn't start burning bodies in the new crematorium until January 1944"; in contrast to the erroneous account given by Hunt and echoed by Nessie, this crematorium, located at the far end of the camp from the gas chambers, was never in operation during the gassing program (October 1942 - October 1943) or the mass shootings of Jews culminating in Aktion Erntefest on 3 November 1943 (and is thus irrelevant to discussion of the logistics of the mass annihilation of Jews at KL Lublin)

(Mailänder, pp 176-180)

And it failed to turn up this information on killing methods at Majdanek:

- lethal injection: sometimes inmates in the infirmaries were "helped to die," even those not in serious condition, by injections of phenol, gasoline, or evipan; the injections were given by SS orderlies (Reinartz was identified as one SS man giving lethal injections) - lethal injection was not a good method to eliminate sick inmates during epidemics

- shootings: major killing actions before October 1942 (gas chambers in operation) took place just outside the camp as well as in the Krepiecki forest, which lay about 12 km from KL Lublin in the direction of Chelm; camp compound leader Hackmann testified after the war that Globocnik ordered in 1941, thought Commandant Karl Otto Koch, that prisoners who had typhoid - there was an outbreak - "were to be liquidated"; SS man Erich Muhsfeldt corroborated Hackmann's testimony and added that "The only thing that was done to combat the epidemic was to shoot sick inmates"; murdering inmates who might pass along disease was seen as an acceptable "hygienic" measure (rather than implementation of conventional disease-prevention protocols); in summer 1942 - following the swelling of the camp with arrivals of Jews from Austria, Slovakia, the Protectorate and the Altreich - another typhoid outbreak resulted in large-scale shootings of Jews in the Krepiecki forest (testimony from a Polish inmate, SS perpetrators and guards, and residents of a nearby village - the mass graves for the shootings were dug by Soviet POWs and Soviet POWs spread a layer of lime over the dead bodies in the pits; the shooters were mostly volksdeutsche, many of them auxiliaries from Ukraine; among the Jews who were shot, according to Hackmann, were those sent by Globocnik and never registered in the camp)

- Aktion Erntefest, 3 November 1943: 18,000 Jews (8,000 from KL Lublin and 10,000 marched to Majdanek from Poniatowa and Trawniki labor camps) were shot; another 24,000 Jews at other Lublin camps were shot at the same time; these murders were executed by detachments of SD and police battalions sent to the camp for this purpose (some regular KL Lublin guards seem to have been kept from the murder scene and told little, whilst others were used in assembly and conveyance of the victims to the shooting area, which was at the trenches dug behind Field V and near the new crematory) (Aufseherin Alice Orlowski: "I remember the date November 3, 1943, very well. . . . After the operation was over, we saw that there were no more Jews in the camp")

- hanging in the old crematorium: Josef M, a German Kapo, witnessed murders in the original crematorium - under Muhsfeldt, head of the crematorium; Muhsfeldt's assistant, Robert Seitz, testified that these killings involved small numbers of prisoners, usually sent over from an infirmary; Kapo Fischer with his crew performed the hangings; an Aufseherin, Luzie H, by accident came on the aftermath of one such hanging, seeing the bodies on the floor after having been cut down from the nooses (there were no such hangings in the new crematorium which began operation in fall 1943)

- gassing: the gas chambers were planned as early as July 1942 and completed in October 1942; as noted, I've summarized witness testimony above, along with all the other material in the thread on gassings, so just a few additional points will be added here: 1) Mailänder, citing Barbara Schwindt's research, concludes that it is impossible to rule out gassings in the "stained" room in B&B no. 41; 2) gassings were overseen by SS-Oberscharführer Anton Endress assisted by SS orderlies Wilhelm Reinartz (above) and Hans Perschon; infirmary staff were called upon when needed; 3) Reinartz testified that gassings occurred on order of the camp commandant; 4) those selected for murder had to undress in the bathhouse next to the gas chambers from where they were forced into the gas chambers; 5) the SS physicians monitored the gassing process; 6) Aufseherin Luzie H testified to seeing bodies of victims of a gassing jammed into a trailer attached to a tractor (Soviet POWs were doing the corpse loading); 6) the maximum number of inmates who could be murdered in the gas chambers in a single day was 700 (thus, for Aktion Erntefest, "the old, tried system," which produced 18,000 murders on 3 November 1943)

(Mailänder, pp 165-176)

Jewish prisoners arriving to the camp were selected for gassing, especially during 1943 up to the fall of that year (but having begun with large transports of Jews from Lublin in the later part of 1942). What follows is general/usual practice - as, we've seen, there were various practices for handling selections:

- arrivals and gassings were usually planned for the night-time to conceal them (there goes another of Hunt's mysterious conundrums, about secrecy - which, at the same time, fell apart, not due to the location of the gas chambers but because people talked - even residents of the city of Lublin heard about the gassing program in the camp, as did camp workers who didn't work in that area or need to know)

- selections of arriving prisoners generally took place in an area outside the camp perimeter (Georg Gröner, prisoner-functionary/Kapo, testifying about late 1942: "When prisoner transports arrived at the camp . . . the entire transport was usually brought to a fenced-in area behind the bathing facility [buildings no. 41 & 42]. I used to called the area the 'rose garden.' . . . Afterwards, the camp physician, camp commandant, and camp compound leader [Hermann Hackmann] sorted the inmates into groups. . . . During the sorting (selection), the prisoners had to walk past the physician, who either sent them from the 'rose garden' to the bathing facility, or sent them over to an empty area on the other side of the 'rose garden,'" where they waited. Those selected for gassing were made to wait, according to Mailänder, summarizing Gröner's testimony, "in front of the gas chambers." Gröner: "SS members stood in a cordon between the rose garden and the bathing facility so that no one could escape. In the bathing facility, the prisoners first showered and then were given their prisoner's uniforms. Afterwards, they were distributed to the various fields. . . . Afterwards, the Jewish people who had remained behind in the rose garden were gassed.")

- as an aside, some selections were carried out right in front of the gas chambers (Aufseherinnen Ehrich and Braunsteiner seem to have been involved in what guard Erna Pfannstiel called "delicate situations. By 'delicate situations' I mean situations at the bath"; Pfannstiel told Aufseherin Hertha Ehlert that, quoting Mailänder, "a gas chamber was located on the other side of the bathing barrack," taking her to the gas chamber and showing it to her)

- among those arriving to the camp, selections focused on "the younger women, the older ones, and the women with children" (statement of Chela Apelbaum); although selections for gassing involved mainly Jews, Soviet POWs and Polish prisoners were sometimes selected for the gas chambers

- by spring 1943, selections of Jews were systematic and, according to Mailänder, the norm for arriving transports bringing Jews to KL Lublin

- violence against the arriving Jews was a common feature of the selections; since guards rotated duty, there was not a permanent team that carried out all the selections of arriving prisoners

(Mailänder, pp 164-165, 174-176)

Much more could be said about Majdanek - and has been in the Majdanek thread, in which (as noted above) David has left a number of questions unanswered. Perhaps Monstrous, instead of posting random bits of distraction, will get his ass to the Majdanek thread and answer the questions David can't answer.

Noted that Monstrous continues ignoring direct and specific questions put to him in this thread. Tsk tsk - rude and cowardly.
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Oct 23, 2015 12:24 pm

Monstrous wrote:"Delousing as a Cover for Mass-Murder?

It is often claimed in the Holocaust literature that the Germans disguised their extermination facilities as delousing stations with showers and barbers and laundries in order to lull Jews into the gas chambers. From the material already quoted, it should be obvious that a more unlikely arrangement to lull Polish Jews into doing anything would be hard to imagine. The prospect of bathing could have only had the opposite effect. In addition to their fear of showers and bathing generally, it was inevitable that there would have also been many false rumors which could have only compounded the Jewish resistance.

Was the visit of a highly respected professor of hygiene, Professor Pfannenstiel, to Belzec and Treblinka only for the sake of putting on a convincing disguise? His visit makes no real sense unless the purpose of these camps was to do precisely what all other Durchgangslager or transit camps were intended to do, i.e., to delouse and medically examine and possibly quarantine people who were being moved to a new location. Although specific details about Treblinka, Belzec and Sobibor may no longer be available, the planning and organization in general was not a secret. The planning and organization was thoroughly described in German wartime; technical journals such as Gesundheits-Ingenieur and Arbeitseinsatz und Arbeitslosenhilfe. [35]

Basically, each transit camp or Durchgangslager was divided into a "clean" zone and a "dirty" zone with a strictly enforced barrier between the two zones. A delousing station straddled the boundary between the two zones at some point. Each camp was arranged so that new arrivals could only enter the "dirty" zone. To get over to the "clean" zone, they had to pass through the delousing station. Inside the delousing station, each person had to remove all of their clothing and belongings which would then be fumigated with cyanide, or steamed, or else heated with hot air while they took a shower and underwent a thorough medical examination which might include X-rays to determine – their state of health and whether or not they had any contagious diseases such as typhus and tuberculosis. If they failed to pass the exam, they might be sent back to wherever they had come from originally or they might simply be kept in a quarantine area for several weeks. If they passed, they would eventually be sent on, usually to another camp and put to work."
http://codoh.com/library/document/970/
At least Monstrous has gotten back to Treblinka, but he continues to dodge direct, specific questions he was asked about his earlier claims. For this post, he provides no supporting evidence, simply speculation - e.g., how do these claims about Pfannenstiel square with other evidence about the Einsatz Reinhard camps, when was Pfannenstiel's mission, what was the purpose of the mission in the context of Einsatz Reinhard, what did Pfannenstiel say about the mission and his observations and in what contexts, with whom did he travel and how did Pfannenstiel's comments fit with those of his travel partner(s), did Pfannenstiel or other(s) on the mission relate their observations to anyone else, are there any reports that can be compared to what was said about the mission Monstrous alludes to, etc. Basically, all we get here is another out of context snippet from the Link Monster - as he continues to avoid answering questions raised by his posts.

Questions which Monstrous refuses to answer.

I point out again Xcalibur's excellent request for Monstrous to explain his {!#%@} point: a series of random, barely connected snippets, links, and quotations does not an argument make. Someone might want to point out to Monstrous that this is a discussion board, not a place to spam propaganda, and that, unless he makes an argument and interacts with what other members say, he is likely to be seen as even more boring and inconsequential than he's so far proved himself to be. In other words, he should consider trying to make and defend an argument as a more engaging strategy than his mode of robotic spamming. In any event, I can say for myself that the longer the dodging continues - and the more out-of-context quotations and links Monstrous posts in lieu of using his own words, I find myself losing interest. Monstrous is not exactly knocking our socks off here.
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Oct 25, 2015 11:13 am

Information about some of what I asked Monstrous, without reply as yet, can be found here, in section 1.3, from Sergey Romanov, and here in excerpts from testimony given by Pfannenstiel.
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Jeff_36 » Sun Oct 25, 2015 3:39 pm

He has yet to address the status of TII as a final destination, as stated by documentary evidence and implied by Wolff. His "twansit" nonsense falls on it's face because of that.

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Oct 25, 2015 7:47 pm

To Jeff's comment, here are two relevant sources (bold added, taken here from Potyondi's old essay on Treblinka):
Secret

Dear Party Comrade Wolff!

With reference to our phone conversation on 16.7.1942 I hereby transcribe the following report of our Gerneral Direction of Eastern Railways (Gedob) in Cracow for your information:

"Since 22.7. a train with 5 000 Jews goes daily from Warsaw via Malkinia to Treblinka. Furthermore there is a train with 5 000 Jews going from Przemysl to Belzec twice a week. Gedob is constantly in touch with the security service in Cracow, who agrees that the transports from Warsaw via Lublin to Sobibor (near Lublin) rest as long as the conversion works on this line make transports impossible (until October 1942)" The trains are agreed with the commander of the Security Police in the General Government. The Head of SS and Police for the Lublin district, SS- Brigadeflihrer Globocnik, has been informed.

Heil Hitler!

Your truly

signed Ganzenmiiller
Note the first end destination listed.
Work Report

12 April 1943

Subject: Escorting the Jewish Transports

On the basis of a telephoned command from SS Haupsturmfiihrer Danker, the train left Skopje on March 23, 1943, at 12:00, escorted by platoon No. 1, which comprised thirty men and was commanded by Police Sergeant Buchner. The train arrived at 23:00. On March 29, at 06:00, the loading of 2,404 Jews onto freight cars commenced at the former tobacco sheds. Loading was completed at 12:00, and at 12:30 the train departed. The train passed through Albanian territory. The final destination, Treblinka (the camp), was reached on April 5, 1943, at 07:00, via Czestochowa, Piotrkow, Warsaw. The train was unloaded that same day between the hours 09:00 and 1 1:00. Incidents: Five Jews died en route. On the night of March 31 - an elderly man, aged eighty-five; on April 3 - an elderly woman, aged ninety-four and a six-month-old child. On April 4 an elderly woman aged ninety-nine died.

Transport Roster: received 2,404

less 5

total delivered at Treblinka

2,399

[signed] Karl, Military Police Lieutenant and Company Commander.
Note again the "final destination" for this transport, from Skopje in 1943.

Worth considering as well is Potyondi's comment on the 1943 transports that
These shipment records also usefully demonstrate that Treblinka was not a transit camp for 'resettlement to the east' as the language of Nazi correspondence implied, since Jews were, beginning 19 August, actively being sent from the east (backwards, from Bialystok!) westward there to die on the very railway which was supposedly being used to 'evacuate' them to the Soviet Union. Moreover, the Oberfeldkommandant of the Lwow ghetto made it clear in spring of 1942 that Jews were being transported westward from Galicia to the Lublin district and not the other way around.39
And here we learn that Polish stationmaster Zabecki testified that the trains, after discharging Jews transported to Treblinka from Warsaw, returned without passengers (bold added):
Twenty wagons were uncoupled from the train, and a shunting engine began to push them along the spur-line into the camp. A short while later it returned empty. This procedure was repeated twice more, until all sixty wagons had been shunted into the camp, and out again. Empty they returned to Warsaw for more 'settlers'.
And in Fahrplananordnungen, including no. 548 (YVA P.26, no. 126, bold added):
Directorate-General the Eastern Railway
Krakow to 08/03/42

Schedule no 548

From 6 August 1942 runs daily until further still, a special train with evacuees from Warsaw to Treblinka Danz Bf and empty train back as follows:

1 /. P. Kr. 9085 / 30.9 /
Warsaw Then Bf - Malkinia - Treblinka

Warsaw Bf Then from 12:25 in the plan Dg 91325 B
Warsaw Marki "" on 12.42 12:59 ""
Tluszcz 14:00 12:27 "" ""
Malkinia 15:54 16:13 in the plan Dg 91368
Treblinka at 16:20

2 / Lp Kr 9086/30/11
Treblinka - Malkenia - Warsaw Danz Bf

Treblinka from 19.00 in the special plan B 91325
Malkinia at 19.07 19:32 in the plan Dg 91342
Tluszcz 20:55 12:27 "" ""
 Warsaw Marki 22:35 16:13 "" "" 8
Warsaw Danz Bf at 23:19

Lok provides Bw Warsaw Praga / for both trains /
Train sets: Bf Warsaw Praga / for both trains /
Wagon train consisting of 1 C, 58 G and 1 C represents Bf / Ga
     Then Bf Warsaw.

handwritten:
Return empty - despite much longer stays -
e.g. Tluszcz takes 27-43 minutes -
Travel time is much shorter: instead of 3 hours 48 minutes.
3 hr 55 min.
4 hrs. 19--
This order confirms the final destination as well as the return of an empty train after "evacuees" had been taken from the train at the Treblinka camp.

What is the evidence for resettlement that Monstrous has been keeping from us?
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Jeff_36 » Mon Oct 26, 2015 1:39 am

boom headshot

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Monstrous » Mon Oct 26, 2015 3:39 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote: What is the evidence for resettlement that Monstrous has been keeping from us?
It was very easy for Monstrous to find an answer to this question with the search function in the pdf reader. Monstrous is surprised that SM has not yet mastered this utility despite its existence being pointed out to SM earlier.

"Chapter 7: Where They Went: The Reality of Resettlement ...... 645"
http://holocausthandbooks.com/index.php ... page_id=28

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Jeff_36 » Mon Oct 26, 2015 3:54 pm

Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote: What is the evidence for resettlement that Monstrous has been keeping from us?
It was very easy for Monstrous to find an answer to this question with the search function in the pdf reader. Monstrous is surprised that SM has not yet mastered this utility despite its existence being pointed out to SM earlier.

"Chapter 7: Where They Went: The Reality of Resettlement ...... 645"
http://holocausthandbooks.com/index.php ... page_id=28
Quit dropping links and show us yourself.

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 26, 2015 4:09 pm

Jesus, this guy is tiresome on top of being not even close to competent. He doesn't quite understand what a discussion forum is.

Yes, in his own words, an explanation of where the Jews transported to Treblinka went and his evidence. I'm not re-reading the blather he links to. He still owes us answers to the questions I asked him regarding his steam/convergence/showers claims ...
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 26, 2015 4:24 pm

Piggybacking on Jeff's comment, it's not lost on me that at this point Monstrous employs multiple tactics to avoid having discussion about the very issues he himself has raised - among these tactics are ignoring and dodging questions, changing the subject, and spamming links or out of context snippets.
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Jeff_36 » Mon Oct 26, 2015 4:44 pm

Bear in mind that the population statistics from 1943 explicitly kill any possibility of resettlement.

After that, one must account for:

- food supply issues in the RK's

- The simple fact that no German soldier ever reported seeing hundreds of thousands of Jews streaming into the eastern areas. '

- The fact that RKO was a massive hotbed of partisan warfare, big chunks of that RK were basically war zones. Given that Himmler linked Otsjuden with partisans, the notion of him sending a million Jews to an area dominated by partisans is ridiculous.

- documented transportation issues
The transportation by rail proved to be especially difficult

Through the continually recurring transportation stoppages, the dispatch was held up with the resulting [sic] in temporary accumulations in the individual camps.

The transportation hold-up to the Ukraine has been especially noticeable since December 1942, and prevented the delivery of old clothing intended for the racial Germans there....
- The fact that Jews were often deported west to the AR camps, from Galacia and Bailystock.

- The fact that no real transport of Jews from Poland or Germany to the RK's stopped in Treblinka or any other AR camp.

- the fact that the Koherr report stated that Jews "deported" were "not in ghettos or concentration camps", thus contradicting a late 1942 policy proposal by Himmler where all Jews were to be placed in ghettos or camps for security reasons. Remember that the original wording was "specially treated". The BS wording of "passed through" was used to describe deportations to Chelmno in the report. Michael Mills, a denier, concedes that Chelmno was an extermination camp.

- Documentation, shown above, indicating TII was a final destination.

- the fact that Jews were deprived of clothing, glasses and walking sticks. Why would the Germans want nearsighted and crippled Jews resettled?

- why the camps were staffed by T4 killers instead of SS hygiene office personnel or MP's.

- Why Irmfried Eberl, a ruthless T4 killer, was so disturbed by what was going on that he described his task as unpleasant in a letter to his wife. The notion of a crank doctor who had gleefully presided over the gassing of thousands of mental patients being repelled by a harmless resettlement operation is plainly ludicrous.

- Why were the participants sworn to secrecy?

- why did Karl Wolff defend himself by stating that he was told TII was itself a "reservation" rather than a transit camp? The clear implication being that it was known to him as a final destination.

- The lack of evidence for any massive number of Jews being resettled in the east

- the existence of a report from Globocnik stating that he had burned all documents relating to his task. What could he have been hiding?

I demand that you address all these points. Failure to do so will result in you being ignored.

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Monstrous » Mon Oct 26, 2015 7:48 pm

Monstrous proposes the theory that most of the Jews deported beyond Poland were never actually "resettled" but used as slave laborers near the front. In particular, there must have been immense need for laborers building trenches, anti-tank fortifications, roads, shelters, bunkers, airfields, and so on. At the same time the death rate from Soviet artillery, bombings, and even partisans would have been absolutely horrendous, possibly even larger than for German troops having more protection. The Soviets would after the war have little interest in stating that they killed large numbers of Jews working behind the front lines and would have preferred some story only blaming the Germans instead.

This answer many Believer arguments regarding what happened.

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 26, 2015 8:26 pm

Monstrous wrote:Monstrous proposes the theory that most of the Jews deported beyond Poland were never actually "resettled" but used as slave laborers near the front. In particular, there must have been immense need for laborers building trenches, anti-tank fortifications, roads, shelters, bunkers, airfields, and so on. At the same time the death rate from Soviet artillery, bombings, and even partisans would have been absolutely horrendous, possibly even larger than for German troops having more protection. The Soviets would after the war have little interest in stating that they killed large numbers of Jews working behind the front lines and would have preferred some story only blaming the Germans instead.

This answer many Believer arguments regarding what happened.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Leaving aside that the positive evidence for mass murder remains unremarked by Monstrous, does the buffoon have anything aside from speculation to support his proposition? Like evidence? As in: sites to which the Jews were taken; records or observations or other sources on the trains and their routes; information about organization of the labor and the working and living conditions at the sites; numbers of Jewish workers taken to various places; names of units, organizations, and/or individuals involved; accounts of the deaths of Jews under Soviet fire he alleges; proof that the main post-war sources blaming the Germans for killing Jews in the area came from Soviets . . . all I can read here is a fantasy concocted to make us laugh.

(boldface added)

What our resident chew-toy is doing here goes by the technical name "grasping at straws."
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 26, 2015 8:45 pm

Again, I fear I'm being too kind: what Monstrous is doing is really nothing more than making stuff up.
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Monstrous » Mon Oct 26, 2015 8:56 pm

Monstrous can present evidence (as learning experience for SM Monstrous will not provide page number but instead ask that the already mentioned pdf search utility be used to find the quotations):

"On 1 January 1943 The Jewish Chronicle reported: 1556
“Czech Jews are now being sent from the notorious Terezin fortress-
ghetto to areas near the Eastern front. Everyone between the ages of 18
and 45 is made to work on the building of fortifications. There is evidence
that Czech Jews had been working on fortifications within 35 miles of Sta-
lingrad.”

"On 21 Novem-
ber 1943 the JTA Daily News Bulletin wrote of Swiss newspapers re-
porting that “anticipating a retreat from the Minsk area in Russia, the
German military command has requested that more Jews be sent from
Poland and other occupied territories to the Minsk district to work on
fortifications.” Two days later, on 23 November 1943, it carried a no-
tice according to which “[t]en thousand to 15,000 Italian Jews will
probably be sent shortly to the Minsk area to construct fortification un-
der the supervision of the German Todt Organization.” On 8 March
1944, Hitler issued a Führerbefehl in which he designated 29 locations
along the eastern frontline – i.a. Tallinn, Pskov, Vitebsk, Orsha, Mogi-
lev, Minsk, Bobruisk and Pinsk – as “Festen Plätze” (“fortified plac-
es”), strongpoints which were to be kept at all costs. "

"On 19 May 1944, the German-Jewish
New York weekly Aufbau reported: 1699
“An eyewitness, who arrived in Switzerland, described there how thou-
sands of Polish and other Jews were sent to the Konskie swamp in Poland
in order to drain the marshland. Hundreds of these Jews die daily from ma-
laria and malnourishment, but their thinned-out columns are replenished
by a steady influx of new arrivals from France. The German military au-
thorities use the drained marshland for the construction of fortifications in
different parts of occupied Poland.”
http://holocausthandbooks.com/index.php ... page_id=28

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:11 pm

Monstrous wrote:Monstrous can present evidence (as learning experience for SM Monstrous will not provide page number but instead ask that the already mentioned pdf search utility be used to find the quotations):

"On 1 January 1943 The Jewish Chronicle reported: 1556
“Czech Jews are now being sent from the notorious Terezin fortress-
ghetto to areas near the Eastern front. Everyone between the ages of 18
and 45 is made to work on the building of fortifications. There is evidence
that Czech Jews had been working on fortifications within 35 miles of Sta-
lingrad.”
Jesus wept.

What on earth does this tidbit have to do with a discussion about Treblinka? I, and anyone marginally conversant with German Jewish policy during the war, can cite a ton of evidence of Jews put to the work in the east by the Germans (DG-IV, etc), but none of it is germane to your claims about the Treblinka camp, which you were asked about before you replied with a couple of inane posts.
Monstrous wrote:"On 21 Novem-
ber 1943 the JTA Daily News Bulletin wrote of Swiss newspapers re-
porting that “anticipating a retreat from the Minsk area in Russia, the
German military command has requested that more Jews be sent from
Poland and other occupied territories to the Minsk district to work on
fortifications.” Two days later, on 23 November 1943, it carried a no-
tice according to which “[t]en thousand to 15,000 Italian Jews will
probably be sent shortly to the Minsk area to construct fortification un-
der the supervision of the German Todt Organization.” On 8 March
1944, Hitler issued a Führerbefehl in which he designated 29 locations
along the eastern frontline – i.a. Tallinn, Pskov, Vitebsk, Orsha, Mogi-
lev, Minsk, Bobruisk and Pinsk – as “Festen Plätze” (“fortified plac-
es”), strongpoints which were to be kept at all costs. "
Treblinka was closed by this point - and no one has disputed that one of the things which the Germans did with Jews was use them for slave labor and work them to death, as promised in the Wannsee protocol. In fact, we insist that this happened. But not with the great numbers of Jews taken to the Einsatz Reinhard camps, and, in this case, to Treblinka. Remember, I said we were after ". . . in his [Monstrous's] own words, an explanation of where the Jews transported to Treblinka went and his evidence." So you now reply with three quotations about, er, not Treblinka.
Monstrous wrote:"On 19 May 1944, the German-Jewish
New York weekly Aufbau reported: 1699
“An eyewitness, who arrived in Switzerland, described there how thou-
sands of Polish and other Jews were sent to the Konskie swamp in Poland
in order to drain the marshland. Hundreds of these Jews die daily from ma-
laria and malnourishment, but their thinned-out columns are replenished
by a steady influx of new arrivals from France. The German military au-
thorities use the drained marshland for the construction of fortifications in
different parts of occupied Poland.”
http://holocausthandbooks.com/index.php ... page_id=28
Again, as with the quotation just above, Treblinka was closed by this time - and in this case, the camp had been closed for months. I did call you out for changing the subject when you come up empty: thanks for proving my point.

Perhaps Pyrrho should move this entire thread to the "Dumb Deniers" discussion, so woeful are your antics here.
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Jeff_36 » Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:41 pm

"On 1 January 1943 The Jewish Chronicle reported: 1556
“Czech Jews are now being sent from the notorious Terezin fortress-
ghetto to areas near the Eastern front. Everyone between the ages of 18
and 45 is made to work on the building of fortifications. There is evidence
that Czech Jews had been working on fortifications within 35 miles of Sta-
lingrad.”
Transfers of labor gangs to the east are well known and supported by evidence. This says nothing about the Jews of Warsaw, nor Polish Jews. It is also unclear as to the fate of non-working Jews in the Terezin ghetto.
"On 21 Novem-
ber 1943 the JTA Daily News Bulletin wrote of Swiss newspapers re-
porting that “anticipating a retreat from the Minsk area in Russia, the
German military command has requested that more Jews be sent from
Poland and other occupied territories to the Minsk district to work on
fortifications.” Two days later, on 23 November 1943, it carried a no-
tice according to which “[t]en thousand to 15,000 Italian Jews will
probably be sent shortly to the Minsk area to construct fortification un-
der the supervision of the German Todt Organization.” On 8 March
1944, Hitler issued a Führerbefehl in which he designated 29 locations
along the eastern frontline – i.a. Tallinn, Pskov, Vitebsk, Orsha, Mogi-
lev, Minsk, Bobruisk and Pinsk – as “Festen Plätze” (“fortified plac-
es”), strongpoints which were to be kept at all costs. "
That is 10,000 Italian Jews, not 1.5 million Polish Jews who were explicitly listed as "not in ghettos or concentration camps". These Jews would have fallen under the category of Jews in Labour camps.
The German military command requested Jewish laborers from Poland. You should know that Jews in labor tasks outside the District Lublin were still alive and exempt from the FS at this time.
This is nothing but a red herring.
"On 19 May 1944, the German-Jewish
New York weekly Aufbau reported: 1699
“An eyewitness, who arrived in Switzerland, described there how thou-
sands of Polish and other Jews were sent to the Konskie swamp in Poland
in order to drain the marshland. Hundreds of these Jews die daily from ma-
laria and malnourishment, but their thinned-out columns are replenished
by a steady influx of new arrivals from France. The German military au-
thorities use the drained marshland for the construction of fortifications in
different parts of occupied Poland.”
http://holocausthandbooks.com/index.php ... page_id=28
Have you ever seen a map? Konskie is located far to the west of the AR camps and is southwest of Warsaw.


It would be silly to send them east to TII, have the train come back empty and then have the Jews in TII somehow teleport to Konskie in the opposite direction of where they had been sent. Thus the Jews laboring in Konskie had not passed through any extermination camp.

You clearly do not understand the split between working and nonworking Jews.

The Koherr report stated that 1.2 million Jews had been sent from the GG to the AR camps. They were listed as "not in ghettos or concentration camps". None of your three sources have anything to do with them. Your Jews are clearly "in ghettos or concentration camps". The notion of 1.2 million laborers on the front line is absurd on it's face. It would have been noticed by everyone. You have not provided ascrap of evidence to support this total, just rumors of Italian Jews here, working Jews there, and some Czech Jews somewhere there.

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:43 pm

He is obfuscating and dodging, plain and simple. He has no answer for what we've posted about Treblinka. Like you, I am waiting for him to support his claims, and reply to the answers we've given, concerning Treblinka, which is what has been under discussion.
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by nickterry » Mon Oct 26, 2015 10:08 pm

Monstrous wrote:Monstrous proposes the theory that most of the Jews deported beyond Poland were never actually "resettled" but used as slave laborers near the front. In particular, there must have been immense need for laborers building trenches, anti-tank fortifications, roads, shelters, bunkers, airfields, and so on. At the same time the death rate from Soviet artillery, bombings, and even partisans would have been absolutely horrendous, possibly even larger than for German troops having more protection. The Soviets would after the war have little interest in stating that they killed large numbers of Jews working behind the front lines and would have preferred some story only blaming the Germans instead.

This answer many Believer arguments regarding what happened.
Two big problems with this.

Firstly, the majority of deportees were not fit for such labour. The deportees selected for gassing at Auschwitz which you now assert were taken to the front to serve as slave labourers were overwhelmingly not fit for work; we know this because the deportees registered at Auschwitz who arrived on transports undergoing selections on arrival were overwhelmingly young and able-bodied, this from the demographic patterns of survivors, from death book entries and other Nazi sources regarding registered inmates, from extant transport lists; and from the unanimous testimony of survivors and onlookers. Deportations from different regions in Poland tended to leave behind young, able-bodied workers and disproportionately deported the unfit, elderly and children. Even though the Nazis deported potentially able-bodied younger men and women in varying proportions to Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka and Chelmno, many were anything but able-bodied after being starved in the larger ghettos like Lodz and Warsaw.

Secondly, there is absolutely no evidence in the copious Wehrmacht records of Jews being sent to the front or handed over to the Army for labour purposes anywhere. Divisional records, corps records and army records mesh tightly to document the extensive use of Soviet POWs and the local, non-Jewish civilian population for trench-digging and so forth. They also document OKH orders starting from September 1942 ordering such employment from above, generalising local practices. These orders not only postdate the start of deportations of Jews to death camps, they also breathe not a word about using Jews for such purposes. I have a filing cabinet full of Wehrmacht reports documenting the use of civilians as forced labourers, and dedicated a substantial portion of my PhD dissertation to this very topic.

I do have several documents recording SS agencies being pressed into service to oversee the construction of field fortifications in Belorussia during 1943-44, but these mention the use of Soviet, non-Jewish civilians. The first time that Jews were used en masse in the construction of defensive lines was in the summer of 1944, when several construction staffs for the building of the 'Ostwall' in East Prussia/Pomerania and Silesia received Hungarian Jews, organised in contingents of 1000 under sub-camp staffs of Stutthof and Gross-Rosen, but these were well behind the frontlines and do not change the numbers regarding the Hungarian Action, since their movement out of Auschwitz is accounted for.

Your news clippings are unconfirmed in all cases - a single newspaper report is generally regarded as insufficient to confirm anything by historians of this era, since journalists were extremely prone to speculating and then treating their guesswork as confirmed fact, or printing pure rumours. They are also to be classified as hearsay - worse, hearsay that originated thousands of miles away from the location they supposedly report on. By contrast, there are over 100 direct eyewitness accounts from Treblinka and many dozens of indirect reports from the immediate vicinity of the camp. The single-sourced report will always, always lose in such a comparison.

A predictive report forecasting the transfer of 10-15,000 Italian Jews to Minsk is even more useless; confirmation is needed to accept that the plan was actually carried out. It doesn't matter whether that report originated from 'informed' Swiss circles speculating wildly, or was leaked by a Nazi official as a deception, or represents a remarkable journalistic scoop, the news coming straight from Himmler's mouth, and was in fact a firm intention at one point - there is no evidence anything of the sort happened. Italian Jews were all deported to Auschwitz, with only slightly more than half of the 15,000 target reached over 1943-44. At Auschwitz, many were registered to work in Monowitz, Birkenau etc, most famously, Primo Levi. The unregistered and unaccounted for tended to be far too young or far too old to wield a spade.

It so happens that military economic officials of Army Group Centre wanted very much to import Hungarian Jews to Belorussia in 1944; the chief economics officer Niedenfuehr even hitched onto the Nazi invasion bandwagon for Hungary in March 1944, before leaving empty-handed. They wanted this because labour battalions of young, able-bodied Hungarian male Jews belonging to the Hungarian Labour Service had long been deployed in this sector. HLS battalions had even been loaned to the Nazis to help run major peat-cutting sites and power plants in 1943. They were so visible that the Army had to issue orders telling its own soldiers as well as the SS not to shoot at them.

The Nazis certainly could have conscripted and mobilised Jewish men along the same lines as the Hungarian Labour Service, and used 10s or 100s of 1000s of them to support military operations, but they did not. There were a handful of exceptions, none of which passed though a death camp and none of which came anywhere near the immediate front. At the end of 1941, a contingent - 1 transport - of Polish Jews from Upper East Silesia was quietly mobilised by the Organisation Todt and sent in January 1942 to northern Russia to help build railways. By the early summer they were returned home. The SS additionally impressed several transports of workers from the Warsaw ghetto primarily for a Waffen-SS supply base at Bobruisk and a smaller contingent for an SS construction site at Smolensk. These transports did not pass through Treblinka and are recorded openly in the reports of the Judenrat and district governor, neither of which were able to say where the 250,000 Jews deported in the Great Action were sent to, since neither were officially told squat by the SS. About 50 out of 2,500 so deported survived the war, none of the dead were killed by Soviet artillery fire.

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 26, 2015 10:36 pm

nickterry wrote:The SS additionally impressed several transports of workers from the Warsaw ghetto primarily for a Waffen-SS supply base at Bobruisk and a smaller contingent for an SS construction site at Smolensk. These transports did not pass through Treblinka and are recorded openly in the reports of the Judenrat and district governor, neither of which were able to say where the 250,000 Jews deported in the Great Action were sent to, since neither were officially told squat by the SS. About 50 out of 2,500 so deported survived the war, none of the dead were killed by Soviet artillery fire.
If I am thinking of the same transports to Bobruisk, they began in spring 1942, before Treblinka was opened, and were recorded also in the diaries of Judenrat chairman Czerniakow and Oyneg Shabes participant Lewin as well as in the notebooks of Oyneg Shabes leader Ringelblum. The late May transports included 150(?) teen-aged boys. Transports also left for Bobruisk early during the Great Deportation, in late July 1942, and, while these transports indirectly relate to Treblinka, they have long been included in historians' numerical accounting of the transports of that time (at least 11,500 Warsaw Jews are estimated to have been sent to various camps for labor during the course of the Great Deportation in 1942). Also, Gerlach cites depositions indicating the occurrence of "large shootings of Jews at or near Bobruisk up to a number of 12,000 to 15,000 victims."

Has Monstrous bailed out of the resettlement thesis in favor of a forced-labor-for-defense proposition? If so, he needs to account for the large numbers of deportees, where they went, whom they worked for, and so on, as previously requested.
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Jeff_36 » Tue Oct 27, 2015 3:01 am

nickterry wrote:

Your news clippings are unconfirmed in all cases - a single newspaper report is generally regarded as insufficient to confirm anything by historians of this era, since journalists were extremely prone to speculating and then treating their guesswork as confirmed fact, or printing pure rumours. They are also to be classified as hearsay - worse, hearsay that originated thousands of miles away from the location they supposedly report on. By contrast, there are over 100 direct eyewitness accounts from Treblinka and many dozens of indirect reports from the immediate vicinity of the camp. The single-sourced report will always, always lose in such a comparison.
Additionally, Dr Terry, the news reports themselves do not tell of resettlement or the massive labor force that Monstrous dreams of. All three describe limited labor gangs that comprised of healthy Jews selected for such a task. Two had nothing to do with AR and one postdated AR by several months and, as I pointed out, was in a geographically absurd location to claim that they had transited by way of Treblinka.

If all three were true, they would still amount to nothing but red herrings.

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Monstrous » Tue Oct 27, 2015 5:55 pm

1. So one objection to the military labor theory is that many Jews were not very fit. The reply is that one has to be very unfit if one cannot contribute at all to, for example, digging trenches or just carrying away the earth. Also, as often being completely unskilled manual labor, such work would not require any special education or skill.

2. Another objection is the lack of extensive documentation. Well, it is all part of the CONSPIRACY!!! SONDERAKTION 1005!!!

(Wait, sorry, "1005" is the alleged German conspiracy, the Allies likely used another name for their own evidence destroying conspiracy, but you see the point...)

3. The Germans, Soviets, and Jews involved and who survived would have kept quiet afterwards since they all had more to gain in various ways from the official gas chamber story (and would of course have been punished or killed if denying the official story).

Monstrous have also consulted the sources and found more evidence:

"According to the June 1942 issue of Contemporary Jewish Record,
“thousands of former Lublin and Krakow Jews” had been sent in April
1942 to dig trenches “on the Taganrog-Kharkov sector of the Soviet
front.”

"In this context must be mentioned a highly important German radio
message intercepted by British decoders on 15 January 1942: 1540
“To Higher SS and Police Leader NORTH. Secret.
The Fuehrer has ordered that Jewish compulsory labour gangs are to
be sent with all speed into the area of Russian operations for the carrying
out of important constructional undertakings. They go on 18.1.42 in special
transport into the building area allotted to the SILESIAN operations group,
in the region of DUENABURG/MOSCOW. Medical examination and injec-
tion is necessary. The Jews wear black-working dress with green arm-
bands. Employment – Reichsautobahn. Organisation TODT undertakes
guard duties. Please see to it that the pool of compulsory laborers is not
reduced.
Higher SS and Pol. Leader SOUTH-EAST”"

"Walter Laqueur informs us in his book The Terrible Secret that,
when Professor Felix Frankfurter in mid-September 1942 met with
President Roosevelt to voice his apprehension about the fate of the
Jews, the president told him not to worry, because “the deported Jews
were simply being employed on the Soviet frontier to build fortifica-
tions.” 1564 Of course, our opponents would have it that the head of state
of one of Germany’s major enemies knew no better than to pass on
“mere rumors”! Needless to say, the deployment of Jews as forced la-
borers on construction sites near the front would have put the same at
immense risk of being killed by enemy and partisan fire (as well as
mines and air raids), in addition to the hardship resulting from being
forced to work under extreme conditions."

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 27, 2015 6:27 pm

Monstrous wrote:1. So one objection to the military labor theory is that many Jews were not very fit. The reply is that one has to be very unfit if one cannot contribute at all to, for example, digging trenches or just carrying away the earth. Also, as often being completely unskilled manual labor, such work would not require any special education or skill.

2. Another objection is the lack of extensive documentation. Well, it is all part of the CONSPIRACY!!! SONDERAKTION 1005!!!

(Wait, sorry, "1005" is the alleged German conspiracy, the Allies likely used another name for their own evidence destroying conspiracy, but you see the point...)

3. The Germans, Soviets, and Jews involved and who survived would have kept quiet afterwards since they all had more to gain in various ways from the official gas chamber story (and would of course have been punished or killed if denying the official story).

Monstrous have also consulted the sources and found more evidence:

"According to the June 1942 issue of Contemporary Jewish Record,
“thousands of former Lublin and Krakow Jews” had been sent in April
1942 to dig trenches “on the Taganrog-Kharkov sector of the Soviet
front.”

"In this context must be mentioned a highly important German radio
message intercepted by British decoders on 15 January 1942: 1540
“To Higher SS and Police Leader NORTH. Secret.
The Fuehrer has ordered that Jewish compulsory labour gangs are to
be sent with all speed into the area of Russian operations for the carrying
out of important constructional undertakings. They go on 18.1.42 in special
transport into the building area allotted to the SILESIAN operations group,
in the region of DUENABURG/MOSCOW. Medical examination and injec-
tion is necessary. The Jews wear black-working dress with green arm-
bands. Employment – Reichsautobahn. Organisation TODT undertakes
guard duties. Please see to it that the pool of compulsory laborers is not
reduced.
Higher SS and Pol. Leader SOUTH-EAST”"

"Walter Laqueur informs us in his book The Terrible Secret that,
when Professor Felix Frankfurter in mid-September 1942 met with
President Roosevelt to voice his apprehension about the fate of the
Jews, the president told him not to worry, because “the deported Jews
were simply being employed on the Soviet frontier to build fortifica-
tions.” 1564 Of course, our opponents would have it that the head of state
of one of Germany’s major enemies knew no better than to pass on
“mere rumors”! Needless to say, the deployment of Jews as forced la-
borers on construction sites near the front would have put the same at
immense risk of being killed by enemy and partisan fire (as well as
mines and air raids), in addition to the hardship resulting from being
forced to work under extreme conditions."
I will defer to Nick Terry to respond on the points he made. In the meantime, relative to SK1005 (what you call " lack of extensive documentation" and an "evidence destroying conspiracy"), well, no, since the real case (SK1005) and your fantasy case aren't the same, I don't see the point. In the case of the murder of the Jews and SK1005, in fact, we have a lot of evidence; for your proposition, we have suppositions, probably's, would have's, and tangential citations:

In the first place, there is a great deal of evidence for the murders in which SK1005 was later involved - not a dearth of evidence as you try having it; such evidence has been dealt with at length in various threads so I won't recapitulate it here except to say that we have identified sites to which the Jews were taken and where they were murdered and how they were murdered; produced records or observations or other sources about deportations and routes taken by the victims including conditions on the trains and arrival and processing methods; provided descriptions of the organization of and conditions at the killing sites; given estimated numbers of Jews taken to various places and estimated numbers of murder victims, laborers, and escapees; provided names of units, organizations, and/or individuals involved in the murders and management of the process; etc.

In the second place, we've given evidence as well for SK1005 whereas, in keeping with your inability to provide information on your claimed labor operations, you can say about your fictional cover-up operation only "the Allies likely used another name for their own evidence destroying conspiracy."

Again, we were discussing where the Jews from Treblinka were supposedly taken - and because you can't answer that question, you've changed the subject and made yourself giddy that you've found a few random examples, from different time periods and places, of Jews put to work on military tasks - disconnected from Treblinka and Einsatz Reinhard and in such small numbers as to explain nothing about the fate of Jews across Poland, the occupied USSR, southern-central-western Europe. Since no one has contested Jews working for Organization Todt, in Silesian camps, on DG-IV, etc, your examples (including what Roosevelt is said to have surmised!) don't provide answers for the questions you've been asked about your claims with regard to the 100s of 1000s of Jews taken to Treblinka.
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Jeff_36 » Tue Oct 27, 2015 7:58 pm

Monstrous wrote: The Germans, Soviets, and Jews involved and who survived would have kept quiet afterwards since they all had more to gain in various ways from the official gas chamber story (and would of course have been punished or killed if denying the official story).
It would have come out. Jews would have been pissed off about being used as front-line labor and would have claimed reparations. Soviets would have been free to talk after 1991. German soldiers would have wanted to expose the "conspiracy". No such thing happened.


"According to the June 1942 issue of Contemporary Jewish Record,
“thousands of former Lublin and Krakow Jews” had been sent in April
1942 to dig trenches “on the Taganrog-Kharkov sector of the Soviet
front.”
Labor gangs. Another red herring. These would have been young men, fit. The deportees to the AR camps at this time were anything but. Do you propose that the Germans intended to use 55 year old men and 11 year old children for trench digging? No.

You will find that no historian denies that there were labor gangs. It is part of historiography on this issue. See the Goebbels diary "60 percent liquidated and 40 percent used for forced labor". You have yet to talk about the 60%.
"In this context must be mentioned a highly important German radio
message intercepted by British decoders on 15 January 1942: 1540
“To Higher SS and Police Leader NORTH. Secret.
The Fuehrer has ordered that Jewish compulsory labour gangs are to
be sent with all speed into the area of Russian operations for the carrying
out of important constructional undertakings. They go on 18.1.42 in special
transport into the building area allotted to the SILESIAN operations group,
in the region of DUENABURG/MOSCOW. Medical examination and injec-
tion is necessary. The Jews wear black-working dress with green arm-
bands. Employment – Reichsautobahn. Organisation TODT undertakes
guard duties. Please see to it that the pool of compulsory laborers is not
reduced.
Higher SS and Pol. Leader SOUTH-EAST”"
Another OT labor gang. This has been addressed by Nick Terry in his paper on British Intercepts of German communications. He wrote that
German Jews were indeed sent to Latvia as forced labor
. Please provide evidence of non-working Jews sent to the "east" (sans glasses and walking sticks".

"Walter Laqueur informs us in his book The Terrible Secret that,
when Professor Felix Frankfurter in mid-September 1942 met with
President Roosevelt to voice his apprehension about the fate of the
Jews, the president told him not to worry, because “the deported Jews
were simply being employed on the Soviet frontier to build fortifica-
tions.” 1564 Of course, our opponents would have it that the head of state
of one of Germany’s major enemies knew no better than to pass on
“mere rumors”!
Again, no mention of nonworking Jews. Roosevelt may well have been skeptical at the time, but changed his opinions in July of 1943 when he was visited in person by Jan Karski.

Your source omits the fact that Laqueur wrote in the next line down that
It ic certain that Roosevelt knew more than he let on to Frankfurter, one month before, he had [expressed concern for extermination of "certain populations"] in a white house press conference.
.......
[Roosevelt believed] that the most effective and sound course of action was the "most effective prosecution of the war", he did not pay attention to the news about the final solution and may have considered it inopportune
Laqueur also cites an OSS report that reached the US in June of 1942 describing the extermination of Jews in Poland and the Trostinets camp outside Minsk. This proves that this was an example of FDR being a dolt and not him realizing that the reports were "awied pwapaganda".

Given the information supplied to FDR, there exists the possibility that he was merely reassuring Justice Frankfurter (who was Jewish) despite his knowledge to the contrary. Or he was unsure given the reports coming in.

What matters is that those on the ground were sure. Laqueur supplies testimony from an OSS officer named Arthur Goldberg who stated that his request for the bombing of the Warsaw ghetto was denied due to insufficient aircraft rather than dismissal of "propaganda". Goldberg stated that he informed Shumel Zygielbojm of this and that Zygielbojm killed himself the day after. Clearly not "propaganda".

I am not surprised that MGK have twisted another source.

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Jeff_36 » Tue Oct 27, 2015 8:00 pm

I'm gonna simplify it for monstrous

Warsaw. Jews. Where. Did. They. Go. !??!??!!??!
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 27, 2015 8:24 pm

probably too subtle for him
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Tallboy » Tue Oct 27, 2015 10:30 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
Monstrous wrote: The Germans, Soviets, and Jews involved and who survived would have kept quiet afterwards since they all had more to gain in various ways from the official gas chamber story (and would of course have been punished or killed if denying the official story).
It would have come out. Jews would have been pissed off about being used as front-line labor and would have claimed reparations. Soviets would have been free to talk after 1991. German soldiers would have wanted to expose the "conspiracy". No such thing happened.


"According to the June 1942 issue of Contemporary Jewish Record,
“thousands of former Lublin and Krakow Jews” had been sent in April
1942 to dig trenches “on the Taganrog-Kharkov sector of the Soviet
front.”
Labor gangs. Another red herring. These would have been young men, fit. The deportees to the AR camps at this time were anything but. Do you propose that the Germans intended to use 55 year old men and 11 year old children for trench digging? No.

You will find that no historian denies that there were labor gangs. It is part of historiography on this issue. See the Goebbels diary "60 percent liquidated and 40 percent used for forced labor". You have yet to talk about the 60%.
"In this context must be mentioned a highly important German radio
message intercepted by British decoders on 15 January 1942: 1540
“To Higher SS and Police Leader NORTH. Secret.
The Fuehrer has ordered that Jewish compulsory labour gangs are to
be sent with all speed into the area of Russian operations for the carrying
out of important constructional undertakings. They go on 18.1.42 in special
transport into the building area allotted to the SILESIAN operations group,
in the region of DUENABURG/MOSCOW. Medical examination and injec-
tion is necessary. The Jews wear black-working dress with green arm-
bands. Employment – Reichsautobahn. Organisation TODT undertakes
guard duties. Please see to it that the pool of compulsory laborers is not
reduced.
Higher SS and Pol. Leader SOUTH-EAST”"
Another OT labor gang. This has been addressed by Nick Terry in his paper on British Intercepts of German communications. He wrote that
German Jews were indeed sent to Latvia as forced labor
. Please provide evidence of non-working Jews sent to the "east" (sans glasses and walking sticks".

"Walter Laqueur informs us in his book The Terrible Secret that,
when Professor Felix Frankfurter in mid-September 1942 met with
President Roosevelt to voice his apprehension about the fate of the
Jews, the president told him not to worry, because “the deported Jews
were simply being employed on the Soviet frontier to build fortifica-
tions.” 1564 Of course, our opponents would have it that the head of state
of one of Germany’s major enemies knew no better than to pass on
“mere rumors”!
Again, no mention of nonworking Jews. Roosevelt may well have been skeptical at the time, but changed his opinions in July of 1943 when he was visited in person by Jan Karski.

Your source omits the fact that Laqueur wrote in the next line down that
It ic certain that Roosevelt knew more than he let on to Frankfurter, one month before, he had [expressed concern for extermination of "certain populations"] in a white house press conference.
.......
[Roosevelt believed] that the most effective and sound course of action was the "most effective prosecution of the war", he did not pay attention to the news about the final solution and may have considered it inopportune
Laqueur also cites an OSS report that reached the US in June of 1942 describing the extermination of Jews in Poland and the Trostinets camp outside Minsk. This proves that this was an example of FDR being a dolt and not him realizing that the reports were "awied pwapaganda".

Given the information supplied to FDR, there exists the possibility that he was merely reassuring Justice Frankfurter (who was Jewish) despite his knowledge to the contrary. Or he was unsure given the reports coming in.

What matters is that those on the ground were sure. Laqueur supplies testimony from an OSS officer named Arthur Goldberg who stated that his request for the bombing of the Warsaw ghetto was denied due to insufficient aircraft rather than dismissal of "propaganda". Goldberg stated that he informed Shumel Zygielbojm of this and that Zygielbojm killed himself the day after. Clearly not "propaganda".

I am not surprised that MGK have twisted another source.
Nicely done, Jeff_36. Discussing the transit camp theory is great for people like myself who aren't as well versed. ~1.4M Jews went to the AR camps. Deniers say they were transited. Provide evidence of where they were sent.

No special knowledge required to understand. No chemistry or morbidly tedious 'how many corpses in a muffle' calculations. I looked up the population of the largest city in Poland in 1939... Warsaw had a population of about 1.3M in 1939 (< 500k in 1946). So a population of Jews larger than the population of Warsaw cannot be traced beyond their deportation to the AR camps?? Especially after taking away their clothes, canes, glasses, etc.??

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demograph ... _of_Poland

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 27, 2015 11:43 pm

Tallboy wrote:. . . Discussing the transit camp theory is great for people like myself who aren't as well versed. ~1.4M Jews went to the AR camps. Deniers say they were transited. Provide evidence of where they were sent. . . .
Indeed.

And yapping about small deployments of Italian Jews or about early 1942 pre-AR labor projects or about 1944 news about labor sites west of where AR camps had been or about what FDR thought is irrelevant to the request for evidence about what became of Jews who lived in Warsaw, Radom, etc . . . Monstrous needs to make a case for what he's claimed about Treblinka/AR, instead of jumping around. My guess is that he will keep jumping around and ignore the direct questions he's been asked and continue to fail in providing the evidence you ask for as to where these Jews were sent.
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Tallboy » Wed Oct 28, 2015 12:16 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Tallboy wrote:. . . Discussing the transit camp theory is great for people like myself who aren't as well versed. ~1.4M Jews went to the AR camps. Deniers say they were transited. Provide evidence of where they were sent. . . .
Indeed.

And yapping about small deployments of Italian Jews or about early 1942 pre-AR labor projects or about 1944 news about labor sites west of where AR camps had been or about what FDR thought is irrelevant to the request for evidence about what became of Jews who lived in Warsaw, Radom, etc . . . Monstrous needs to make a case for what he's claimed about Treblinka/AR, instead of jumping around. My guess is that he will keep jumping around and ignore the direct questions he's been asked and continue to fail in providing the evidence you ask for as to where these Jews were sent.
exactly. well, it's become quite obvious that there is no evidence for his claims. The lack of integrity in admitting that is baffling. I suppose Cole and Irving recanted cause they just couldn't do it with a straight face anymore? Didn't Mattogno (sp?) finally say that the missing Jews were a problem for revs (and then continue on his merry way)? Strange.

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Monstrous » Wed Oct 28, 2015 7:16 pm

Tallboy wrote:Didn't Mattogno (sp?) finally say that the missing Jews were a problem for revs (and then continue on his merry way)? Strange.
"The missing jews" is a minor problem for revisionists but disproves the Believers. Lots of things can have happened to the about two millions Jews who were deported to occupied Soviet Union according to revisionists. On the other hand, the Believer claims regarding what happened to these Jews at the AR camps are impossible and disproven. Both versions assume that one side destroyed most of the documents stating what really happened so there is no help there.

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Oct 28, 2015 7:26 pm

Monstrous wrote:
Tallboy wrote:Didn't Mattogno (sp?) finally say that the missing Jews were a problem for revs (and then continue on his merry way)? Strange.
"The missing jews" is a minor problem for revisionists but disproves the Believers. Lots of things can have happened to the about two millions Jews who were deported to occupied Soviet Union according to revisionists.
This nicely illustrates a difference between those who study history and Holocaust deniers: historians explain what did happen to the Jews, how and why, using evidence. Deniers, like Monstrous, comfort themselves with the notion that "lots of things can have happened." I can't think of a better way for Monstrous to have told us that he doesn't have a {!#%@} clue what happened - just speculation.

Imagine a history of Jews during WWII that cannot explain where millions of them went - and waves a magic wand to get rid of the problem calling it "minor." What historian would accept a history of the Trail of Tears and Indian removal in the US arguing that we don't know what happened but it's a "minor problem"?

Notice that after making claims about what happened at Treblinka (steam convergence, showers, transport of Jews on from Treblinka to other camps), and being slapped silly with actual evidence for what did happen, Monstrous has kept trying to change the subject.
Monstrous wrote:On the other hand, the Believer claims regarding what happened to these Jews at the AR camps are impossible and disproven.
"Disproven" on the ground that Monstrous says so.
Monstrous wrote:Both versions assume that one side destroyed most of the documents stating what really happened so there is no help there.
No, there's a ton of help, because, in the first place, historians use the evidence we do have to explain what happened and, in the second place, denier claims have been exposed as hollow time and again.

Also, notice that this coward has dodged for over a week now 8 questions directly put to him by me and others.
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Monstrous » Wed Oct 28, 2015 7:28 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
Monstrous wrote: The Germans, Soviets, and Jews involved and who survived would have kept quiet afterwards since they all had more to gain in various ways from the official gas chamber story (and would of course have been punished or killed if denying the official story).
It would have come out. Jews would have been pissed off about being used as front-line labor and would have claimed reparations. Soviets would have been free to talk after 1991. German soldiers would have wanted to expose the "conspiracy". No such thing happened.
No. If Jews were pissed at Germans they had more gain in every way by adhering to the gas chamber story. The Soviets involved could still be persecuted for war crimes after 1991. The Germans involved would have kept quiet or they would themselves have been prosecuted for war crimes by using POWs at the front line.

Also, most Germans, Soviets, and Jews would not have been aware of the "big picture" but would only have been aware of relatively small groups of Jews in a particular area.

Monstrous suspects that Stalin may have been paranoid and would therefore have killed off the higher officers who knew of the "big picture", both German and Soviet ones, in addition to sending the surviving Jews to Siberian camps to die, as suggested by MGK.
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Oct 28, 2015 7:29 pm

"Monstrous suspects . . ."

I am beginning to suspect that Monstrous is daft.
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Oct 28, 2015 7:44 pm

Monstrous wrote:Monstrous suspects that Stalin may have been paranoid and would therefore have killed off the higher officers who knew of the "big picture", both German and Soviet ones, in addition to sending the surviving Jews to Siberian camps to die, as suggested by MGK.
Do you plan now to conflate the Jews who fled the Germans into the Soviet Union and those who were trapped in or deported to German-occupied territory?
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Monstrous » Wed Oct 28, 2015 7:55 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:Monstrous suspects that Stalin may have been paranoid and would therefore have killed off the higher officers who knew of the "big picture", both German and Soviet ones, in addition to sending the surviving Jews to Siberian camps to die, as suggested by MGK.
Do you plan now to conflate the Jews who fled the Germans into the Soviet Union and those who were trapped in or deported to German-occupied territory?
No.

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Oct 28, 2015 10:23 pm

Well, it will be an interesting trick you will have to come up with.

Do you intend ever to reply to the questions you've been asked? Which were explained to you, to remind you, as follows:

1. You were asked for an explanation of what you meant by "steam-gas", and as to why a "steam-gas" version of murder at Treblinka is "more plausible" than killing by means of engine exhaust. You had said that you "will contribute" such an explanation but haven't done so.

2. You were asked about Treblinka to spell out how "forced group showering and delousing using Zyklon B, steam, and/or chlorine were misinterpreted as killing methods as rumors milled around in the camps" and to prove your claim about this - you've not contributed a single remark regarding Treblinka or Einsatz Reinhard camps.

3. Related to #2, you were asked to show how the early reports about extermination at Treblinka - with special reference to sources mentioned in the thread (e.g., Polish underground reports) - were due to camp prisoners from poor eastern European communities misinterpreting forced group “showers” and delousing procedures.

4. You were requested to explain how disposal of 1000s of corpses and extraction of dental gold from corpses at Treblinka, described by Kzrepicki, Wiernik, and others, really had to do with showering/delousing of camp prisoners.

5. Related to #4, you were asked whether delousing and showering usually lead to the bathers dying and surrendering their dental gold (it was noted in this regard that elsewhere in the impoverished east, Jewish inmates of the Nazis did not observe corpses and dental gold extraction resulting from the operation of delousing centers). You've given us no clarification about any of this.

6. You were asked whether hygienic baths and delousing usually involve the creation of corpses to be disposed of, removing corpses to ditches, and the extraction of gold teeth from the bathers.

7. You were asked to prove that many Jews were transported from Treblinka to other camps during fall 1942 (you'd written about the AR camps that "many [Jews taken to them] were transported on to other camps after hygienic and delousing activities, never to be seen again"), the period from which a sampling of Polish underground reports was posted in the thread as well as the period from which a few reports of "steam" were made. You still need to define "many" (I do hope you don't mean a few 1000) and tell us to which camps many Jews were transported from the AR camps.

8. You were asked what your {!#%@} point is.

And we now have additional questions about the Einsatz Reinhard camps which you've also ignored:

9. You have yet to address the status of Treblinka II as a final destination, as stated by documentary evidence, and, as related issues, you were asked "Warsaw. Jews. Where. Did. They. Go. !??!??!!??!" and how you account for a population of Jews larger than the population of Warsaw beyond their deportation to the AR camps. You've given us no evidence that a large % of the Jews deported to the AR camps were subsequently transported to other camps.

10. You were asked if you have bailed out of the resettlement thesis in favor of a forced-labor-for-defense proposition? If so, you need to account for the large numbers of deportees (not just some 1000s), where they went, whom they worked for, and so on, as previously requested. In line with this, you were asked to please provide evidence of non-working Jews sent to the "east."

And, no, your delusional hand-wave that deniers not knowing the fate of the very people we're discussing is a "minor problem" does not answer the questions - or reply to the vast amount of evidence that these people (well over a million of them) were murdered at Treblinka, Sobibór, and Bełzec.

Sigh . . . the longer you go on dodging, the more the unanswered questions and open issues pile up . . .
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Jeff_36 » Thu Oct 29, 2015 2:00 am

Jeff_36 takes note of your arguments. However Jeff_36 would like to draw your attention to documentary evidence of document destruction by the Nazi in Lublin and AR, specifically the report of Globocnik to Himmler.