Is this really the best there is?

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 19, 2015 3:33 pm

Monstrous wrote:There is a convergence of evidence that in Treblinka steam was used:
http://vho.org/tr/2002/1/tr09irving.html
No, there isn't. Fatuous stupidity on your part. There were among escapees from TII confusion - and speculation (including gas and steam) - in August and September about the method of killing being used in the "bathhouse," but among people in the camp after that, including the many who escaped during the revolt in 1943, most reports were that the killing was done by exhaust from an engine. The reports of the Polish Underground during this period and later also report engine exhaust/gas chamber. In Joshua Zimmerman's recent, detailed study of Polish Underground's relationship to Jews, which surveys the underground's reports on the extermination of the Jews in Poland, there's not a single reference to steam cited. Other guesses (chlorine, vacuum) don't support a notion of convergence of testimonies in favor of steam.

The piece of crap you linked to is refuted in this old RODOH thread, so I won't repeat the arguments (much more can be said but first you need to make an argument worth replying to) - even been-there cried uncle. Besides being in a state of ignorance about the evidence, you are clueless as to the meaning of the concept "convergence of evidence".
Monstrous wrote:(Monstrous will contribute that steam gas may be a more plausible method than carbon monoxide gas from a captured Russian submarine).
As to your ruminations on plausibility, we are all ears. In fact, we've been waiting for you to contribute anything other than some poorly digested links and copypasta. So go for it. Other than that, do some reading, and thinking, before you try advancing this false claim about steam again.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Tue Oct 20, 2015 12:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by NathanC » Mon Oct 19, 2015 4:37 pm

Moronstrous has nothing to offer to the criticisms of his BS on Auschwitz, and so changes the subject to the old "steam" BS. Truly, he's turning into the new David.

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Monstrous » Mon Oct 19, 2015 4:39 pm

Monstrous have uncovered new evidence for how the "convergence of evidence" appeared:

"By the way, the publication Broad mentions is presumably that collection
of reports on the “ Auschwitz-Birkenau death camp” the origin of which is still
in the dark today and which was circulated at that time in many influential
places —for example, the Vatican and the International Red Cross in Geneva—
before it was made public in Washington in November 1944 as a report of the
War Refugee Board. As a member of the political department at the Auschwitz
concentration camp, Broad certainly must have read it himself, so it becomes
clear what his source of “information” was, insofar as the prison cam p
statement and the Nuremberg affidavit really came from his own pen."
http://vho.org/aaargh/fran/livres6/WSeng.pdf

Thus, even the NS were aware of the report, so they know what to tell when the Allied prosecutors/interrogators appeared and demanded to hear statements of having witnessed mass gassings or else...

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 19, 2015 4:48 pm

NathanC wrote:Moronstrous has nothing to offer to the criticisms of his BS on Auschwitz, and so changes the subject to the old "steam" BS. Truly, he's turning into the new David.
and then he bounces back to Auschwitz . . . LOL . . . this thread of Monstrous's is like a manic ping-pong match played by competitors on crystal meth.
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by NathanC » Mon Oct 19, 2015 4:59 pm

Moronstrous wrote:
"By the way, the publication Broad mentions is presumably that collection
of reports on the “ Auschwitz-Birkenau death camp” the origin of which is still
in the dark today and which was circulated at that time in many influential
places —for example, the Vatican and the International Red Cross in Geneva—
before it was made public in Washington in November 1944 as a report of the
War Refugee Board. As a member of the political department at the Auschwitz
concentration camp, Broad certainly "must" have read it himself, so it becomes
clear what his source of “information” was, insofar as the prison cam p
statement and the Nuremberg affidavit really came from his own pen."
http://vho.org/aaargh/fran/livres6/WSeng.pdf

Thus, even the NS were aware of the report, so they know what to tell when the Allied prosecutors/interrogators appeared and demanded to hear statements of having witnessed mass gassings or else...
Nothing but non sequiturs and paranoid speculations.

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Jeff_36 » Mon Oct 19, 2015 5:27 pm

Monstrous has yet to adress the depositions that I have brought up.

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Jeff_36 » Mon Oct 19, 2015 5:30 pm

What say monstrous on the Kremer diary?

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Monstrous » Mon Oct 19, 2015 5:38 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:What say monstrous on the Kremer diary?
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v02/v02p103_Faurisson.html

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Hans » Mon Oct 19, 2015 6:56 pm

Monstrous wrote:PS-501
http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/dth/fndwagon.html

The Becker Document (501-PS), 16 May 1942 .................. 40
http://holocausthandbooks.com/index.php?page_id=24
Monstrous,

you have really no luck these days. Incidently, I spent the past few weeks just to check the arguments brought forward by Alvarez, Marais and Weckert. And among us: it doesn't look good for them.

Alvarez top three technical arguments to dismiss the letter Becker to Rauff of 16 May 1942 are false:

1. Saurer were always Diesel (and Diesel doesn't kill)

The trucks produced in the Saurer factory in Paris were mostly gasoline powered (see Saurer. Vom Ostschweizer Kleinbetrieb zum internationalen Technologiekonzern, 2003, no page numbers).

2. Saurer had "vacuum-assisted hydraulic brakes", and the "combined hydraulic-pneumatic brakes" mentioned in the letter are fictional.

A combined pneumatic-hydraulic brake existed since the 30s in Europe and was also utilized in trucks in Germany (see ATE Bremsenhandbuch, 1938, p. 111). Saurer were probably the first to introduce this new technique in their trucks (see Ein Jahrhundert Automobiltechnik: Nutzfahrzeuge, section on brakes).

3. "'Manchete'...is not part of the German everyday language nor of technical lingo"

In contrary, "Manschette" was a proper technical term to describe sealings in the hydraulic part of the brake (see ATE Bremsenhandbuch, 1938, p. 82).
Last edited by Hans on Tue Oct 20, 2015 4:34 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 19, 2015 6:56 pm

Monstrous wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:What say monstrous on the Kremer diary?
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v02/v02p103_Faurisson.html
What a mindless robot, that is what Faurisson says . . . the brainless link-machine was asked what "What say monstrous" - not what say Fauri.

He's a bit like an early AI-programmed bot that can only deal with known parameters and is completely incapable of an actual discussion. Combined with a lab rat that spits out responses to regular stimuli. You say Kremer, the rat spits out the Kremer link; you say PS-501, the rat spits out the Alvarez and Weckert links . . . LOL. But he's lost beyond that initial stimulus-response . . . if you give him a detail or argument not covered by his links . . . he just moves on to another mindless bit of trolling. Hopeless in dealing with anything he's not programmed to spit out a pre-prepped reply for.

Anyhow, let's see if he is able to find linkies that have a pre-programmed answer to Hans's reply . . . I am not holding my breath for his finding anything answering my post(s) on "steam."

This thread is working out about as well for Monstrous as his Posen and Einsatzgruppen monstrosities.
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Hans » Mon Oct 19, 2015 7:22 pm

Another poor argument from Alvarez not providing any evidence that Becker's letter is not authentic:

4. "Rivets hardly ever" loose and "loose rivets cannot be repaired"

Rivets can get loose when subjected to excessive, repeated strain. It's entirely possible that poor material, poor manufacturing, corrosive fluids, poor roads in the occupied territories and 4.5 ton loads of people - or combinations of these - may have caused problems with rivets of the coachwork. While one would normally replace loosen rivets, if this was not possible in repair garages in the occupied territories, it is entirely possible that they tried to close gaps in the coachwork with whatever available, and if it was by soldering. It does not matter if it makes sense to Alvarez today, it had to made sense in the situation back then. This is the only condition and it requires way more to challenge this than just saying so. And in contrast to Alvarez, the author of the letter was clearly a technical expert, e.g. else he wouldn't know about such details like the hydraulic-pneumatic brake, which were indeed employed in Saurer trucks.

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Hans » Mon Oct 19, 2015 8:29 pm

Monstrous wrote: Of course the Vrba-Wetzler report provided the blueprint for many after the 1944. It was widely publicized and of course the communists also learned of it and likely found it useful in order to standardize the story. Allied prosecutors and interrogators "interviewing" witnesses likely expected to hear this version of events and that was consequently what they got (after the necessary "prodding" to help memory).
"Of course" is not argument. You might come through with this at the CODOH Forum and with David and Mary, but not with any critical mind person. We want to see actual evidence, not speculation merely deduced from your unfounded assumption that there had been no mass extermination.

We may infer from your evasive response that you have no evidence that "many later accounts after 1944 started to copy the Vrba–Wetzler report". This is my impression too.

In fact, there is not only no evidence for your copy hypothesis but it's also quite unlikely given that independent Sonderkommando and SS accounts differ way more from the Vrba-Wetzler-report than from each other. As I already said and repeat again answer because you did not answer the point (probably because you did not find anything on it on vho):

I have yet to see any Revisionist explanation why the testimonies of the Sonderkommando prisoners and SS men from Auschwitz stand out in terms of level of detail, reliability and consistency compared to the rest. This is exactly what one would expect if the story of mass extermination were true and it is pretty much the opposite of what one would expect if it were just false rumors circulating in and outside the camp.

Care to explain this?

I'll give you an example. The Wetzler-Vrba report claimed that "two attendants clad in white distribute a towel and a piece of soap to each" in the crematoria. You find such a description in many accounts from hearsay witnesses (see Knowledge of Mass Extermination Among Hungarian Jews Returning from Auschwitz. But with very few and little relevant exceptions, you don't find this among the numerous Sonderkommando and SS eyewitnesses. Just why did they had such a different knowledge, if there were no mass extermination anyway? This different knowledge of SK and SS on the one side, and ordinary prisoners on the other side doesn't make much sense if mass extermination were not true as you Holocaust deniers claim.

But what does make sense: the hearsay witnesses reported about false rumors because these were circulating in the camp and couldn't be checked for outsiders, and the Sonderkommando and SS men did not report about this, because they knew it better from their own experience.
Last edited by Hans on Mon Oct 19, 2015 8:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Hans » Mon Oct 19, 2015 8:38 pm

Monstrous wrote:Monstrous have uncovered new evidence for how the "convergence of evidence" appeared:

"By the way, the publication Broad mentions is presumably that collection
of reports on the “ Auschwitz-Birkenau death camp” the origin of which is still
in the dark today and which was circulated at that time in many influential
places —for example, the Vatican and the International Red Cross in Geneva—
before it was made public in Washington in November 1944 as a report of the
War Refugee Board. As a member of the political department at the Auschwitz
concentration camp, Broad certainly must have read it himself, so it becomes
clear what his source of “information” was, insofar as the prison cam p
statement and the Nuremberg affidavit really came from his own pen."
http://vho.org/aaargh/fran/livres6/WSeng.pdf

Thus, even the NS were aware of the report, so they know what to tell when the Allied prosecutors/interrogators appeared and demanded to hear statements of having witnessed mass gassings or else...
Monstrous fingers must be already bloody from googling, but he is confused. This report "camp of death" from the Polish resistance first published late 1942 mentioned by Pery Broad has nothing do with the Vrba-Wetzler report from 1944. This report doesn't even mention the homicidal gassings in Auschwitz-Birkenau. So you want to tell us that a report not mentioning the homicidal gassing of Jews is supposed to have scripted the homicidal gassing of Jews? Does that make sense to you?
Last edited by Hans on Tue Oct 20, 2015 5:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Xcalibur » Tue Oct 20, 2015 1:38 am

I'm waiting on why "steam gas" is more "plausible". I also don't know what Monstrous' concept of "steam gas" is or what he thinks it is?

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 20, 2015 2:48 am

Xcalibur wrote:
Monstrous wrote:There is a convergence of evidence that in Treblinka steam was used:
http://vho.org/tr/2002/1/tr09irving.html
Monstrous's convergence of evidence for steam as the murder method at Treblinka:

1. Polish Underground reports on deportees from Warsaw and elsewhere, partial listing from 1942

30 July 1942 Biuletyn Informacyjny (J Zimmerman, The Polish Underground and the Jews, 1939-1945, p 157): lack of specifics on fate of deportees with the “most pessimistic speculations”

6 August 1942 Biuletyn Informacyjny (Zimmerman, p 157):
so far, nearly 70,000 Jews deported from Warsaw; “While precise details and certainty is still being determined, first-hand accounts give no doubt that the transports of Jews are being directed via routes towards two main death camps in Bełzec and Sobibór.” [about this time Bund mission, which discovered that the deportations went to Treblinka and heard that the killing was by gas or electricity, was completed and 1st Bund report was published in underground newspaper in Warsaw]

10 August 1942 Home Army’s Jewish Affairs Bureau (Zimmerman, p 152): Henryk Woliński (bureau chief) 150,000 Jews deported from Warsaw (7,000 per day), Treblinka II had been added to Sobibór and Bełzec death camps; also liquidation of Radom

17 August 1942 Informacja Bieżaca (Mattogno & Graf, Treblinka: Transit Camp or Extermination Camp?, p 48):
“After the departure of the steam engines, the Jews are forced to undress, supposedly for the bath; then they are led into the gas chamber and executed. . . . the gas chamber is mobile and moves back and forth over the [burial] pits . . .”

18 August 1942, analysis of Department of Information (division of Home Army’s Bureau of Information and Propaganda) (Zimmerman, p 152):
report on Warsaw deportations; “The physical liquidation of the Jewish people that has been taking place for the last few months . . .”

20 August 1942 Biuletyn Informacyjny (Zimmerman, p 158): approximately 200,000 Jews deported to Treblinka; Jews being put to death in Treblinka, in “gas chambers”

no date (probably late August 1942), Department of Information and Press, Delegatura, report covering 16 July - 25 August 1942) (Zimmerman, p 154):
“more and more intelligence about the cruel murder of the Jews by the Germans in every area of Poland,” citing specifically Bełzec, Sobibór, Treblinka, camps in which Jews were being murdered “in gas chambers specifically built for this purpose”; Radom cited

31 August 1942, letter by Leon Feiner to Zygielbojm, Polish government in London (Zimmerman, p 155):
“the complete extermination” of the Jews underway, “un-heard of mass murders” in occupied USSR now extended into General Gouvernement in ongoing actions - 1,250,000 Jews murdered in Bełzec, Sobibór, Treblinka

8 September 1942 Informacja Bieżaca (M&G Treblinka, p 48):
“The Ukrainians pull the Jews out of the cars and lead them to the ‘bath’ in the bathhouse. This is a building surrounded by barbed wire. They enter in groups of 300 to 500 persons. Each group is immediately locked up hermetically and gassed. Of course, this gas is not immediately effective, for the Jews have to walk to the pits afterwards.”

17 September 1942 declaration on Warsaw ghetto liquidation issued by the Polish Underground’s Directorate of Civil Resistance, Delegator, printed in Biuletyn Informacyjny (Zimmerman, pp 158-159):
“Jews who, for no reason other than the fact that they belong to the Jewish nation, are mercilessly slaughtered by poison gas, by being burned alive, thrown out of windows . . .” (no specific reference to Treblinka listed in Zimmerman’s summary)

1 October 1942 Biuletyn Informacyjny (Zimmerman, p 161):
“Death camps in Bełzec, Treblinka and Sobibór are working day and night. In Radom only about 7% of the Jewish community remains. About 1000 people were shot on the spot and the remaining 22,000 deported to Treblinka. In Kielce, the entire ghetto was liquidated in a single night (Aug. 19th) with 1200 shot on the spot and 16,000 deported. . . .”

5 October 1942 Informacja Bieżaca (M&G Treblinka, p 47):
“Treblinka. The death camp is once more in operation. . . .The gas chambers function as follows: Outside of the barracks is a 20 HP internal combustion engine, which is in operation around the clock. The end of its exhaust pipe is mounted in a wall of the barracks; the exhaust gases, with the admixture of toxic fluids, which have been specially mixed into the fuel of the engine, kill the people locked up in the barracks . . .”

8 October 1942 Biuletyn Informacyjny (Zimmerman, p 161):
“the vast majority [of the 300,000 Jews deported from Warsaw] were murdered primarily in the gas chambers of the Treblinka concentration camp”

10 October 1942 situational report of the Delegatura (Zimmerman, p 166):
conclusion that “resettlement to the east” was a euphemism for mass murder; deportees from Polish ghettos being sent to Bełzec and Treblinka and there “being subjected to horrific mass murder in gas chambers”

1-15 October 1942, Niepodleglosć (Zimmerman, p 160): on mass murder of Warsaw’s Jews, about 300,000 murdered, according to Zimmerman, mostly by gas

no date, report forwarded to Polish government in exile in London (M&G Treblinka, p 48, M&G give no further information):
“[The Jews] are brought into a sealed chamber, a barrack, approximately 100 people at a time. Outside of the barrack stands an internal combustion engine of 20 HP, which runs around the clock. The mouth of the engine’s exhaust leads through the barrack’s wall, and the people locked up in the barrack are killed by exhaust gases channeled through it that contain toxic fluid additives, which have been especially mixed with the engine fuel.”

6 November 1942 Home Army’s Jewish Affairs Bureau (Zimmerman, p 153): Jewish communities outside Warsaw being liquidated and Jews sent to Bełzec, Sobibór, Treblinka (including Siedlce, Biala Podlaska, Łukow)

2. Tabulation of escapee reports on method of murder at Treblinka
sample = 43 (of 82 Treblinka escapees for whom I could determine a reported method of killing; this is a preliminary summary, still under construction)

36 reported gas
1 reported steam only (Gutman)
2 reported gas and/or steam (Krzepicki, Rabinowicz)
1 reported gas or electricity (Bund report, presumably U Wallach)
3 reported some combination of gas with air pumped out, chlorine, ether, or Zyklon B (A Kon, Rajchman, S Goldberg)

(M&G also cite a report describing the killing method as steam that was sent to London in March 1943 without attributing it to an escapee, an underground source or other informant.)

- - - - -

The key point is that escapees from Treblinka, and others, did not know how those taken to the "bathhouses" were being murdered inside. The SS did not give informational tours or provide handy brochures. So people working in the camp made conjectures, compared observations, rumors, and thinking, and eventually formed a consensus that engine exhaust was the means of murder. As Abraham Krzepicki, a rare escapee who actually saw the chambers (albeit when they were not in operation), forthrightly told Oyneg Shabes interviewers in fall 1942, after his escape from Treblinka, "None of the workers knew exactly how death was caused." (Kermish, To Live with Honor and Die with Honor, p 713)
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Tue Oct 20, 2015 3:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Xcalibur » Tue Oct 20, 2015 3:42 am

Danke, SM.

I'm still wanting an explanation of what It meant by "steam-gas", and as to why that version is "more plausible".

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by scrmbldggs » Tue Oct 20, 2015 3:58 am

Considering the attitude, "steam bath" is probably what's meant. Ya know, the spa treatment à la Hunt.
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Jeff_36 » Tue Oct 20, 2015 4:57 am

Monstrous wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:What say monstrous on the Kremer diary?
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v02/v02p103_Faurisson.html
That has been dismissed at length. Anything else?

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 20, 2015 9:44 am

scrmbldggs wrote:Considering the attitude, "steam bath" is probably what's meant. Ya know, the spa treatment à la Hunt.
I have confidence that Monstrous will clarify this when he is able to locate a link that tells him what his views are.
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Jeff_36 » Tue Oct 20, 2015 5:44 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Xcalibur wrote:
Monstrous wrote:There is a convergence of evidence that in Treblinka steam was used:
http://vho.org/tr/2002/1/tr09irving.html
Monstrous's convergence of evidence for steam as the murder method at Treblinka:

1. Polish Underground reports on deportees from Warsaw and elsewhere, partial listing from 1942

30 July 1942 Biuletyn Informacyjny (J Zimmerman, The Polish Underground and the Jews, 1939-1945, p 157): lack of specifics on fate of deportees with the “most pessimistic speculations”

6 August 1942 Biuletyn Informacyjny (Zimmerman, p 157):
so far, nearly 70,000 Jews deported from Warsaw; “While precise details and certainty is still being determined, first-hand accounts give no doubt that the transports of Jews are being directed via routes towards two main death camps in Bełzec and Sobibór.” [about this time Bund mission, which discovered that the deportations went to Treblinka and heard that the killing was by gas or electricity, was completed and 1st Bund report was published in underground newspaper in Warsaw]

10 August 1942 Home Army’s Jewish Affairs Bureau (Zimmerman, p 152): Henryk Woliński (bureau chief) 150,000 Jews deported from Warsaw (7,000 per day), Treblinka II had been added to Sobibór and Bełzec death camps; also liquidation of Radom

17 August 1942 Informacja Bieżaca (Mattogno & Graf, Treblinka: Transit Camp or Extermination Camp?, p 48):
“After the departure of the steam engines, the Jews are forced to undress, supposedly for the bath; then they are led into the gas chamber and executed. . . . the gas chamber is mobile and moves back and forth over the [burial] pits . . .”

18 August 1942, analysis of Department of Information (division of Home Army’s Bureau of Information and Propaganda) (Zimmerman, p 152):
report on Warsaw deportations; “The physical liquidation of the Jewish people that has been taking place for the last few months . . .”

20 August 1942 Biuletyn Informacyjny (Zimmerman, p 158): approximately 200,000 Jews deported to Treblinka; Jews being put to death in Treblinka, in “gas chambers”

no date (probably late August 1942), Department of Information and Press, Delegatura, report covering 16 July - 25 August 1942) (Zimmerman, p 154):
“more and more intelligence about the cruel murder of the Jews by the Germans in every area of Poland,” citing specifically Bełzec, Sobibór, Treblinka, camps in which Jews were being murdered “in gas chambers specifically built for this purpose”; Radom cited

31 August 1942, letter by Leon Feiner to Zygielbojm, Polish government in London (Zimmerman, p 155):
“the complete extermination” of the Jews underway, “un-heard of mass murders” in occupied USSR now extended into General Gouvernement in ongoing actions - 1,250,000 Jews murdered in Bełzec, Sobibór, Treblinka

8 September 1942 Informacja Bieżaca (M&G Treblinka, p 48):
“The Ukrainians pull the Jews out of the cars and lead them to the ‘bath’ in the bathhouse. This is a building surrounded by barbed wire. They enter in groups of 300 to 500 persons. Each group is immediately locked up hermetically and gassed. Of course, this gas is not immediately effective, for the Jews have to walk to the pits afterwards.”

17 September 1942 declaration on Warsaw ghetto liquidation issued by the Polish Underground’s Directorate of Civil Resistance, Delegator, printed in Biuletyn Informacyjny (Zimmerman, pp 158-159):
“Jews who, for no reason other than the fact that they belong to the Jewish nation, are mercilessly slaughtered by poison gas, by being burned alive, thrown out of windows . . .” (no specific reference to Treblinka listed in Zimmerman’s summary)

1 October 1942 Biuletyn Informacyjny (Zimmerman, p 161):
“Death camps in Bełzec, Treblinka and Sobibór are working day and night. In Radom only about 7% of the Jewish community remains. About 1000 people were shot on the spot and the remaining 22,000 deported to Treblinka. In Kielce, the entire ghetto was liquidated in a single night (Aug. 19th) with 1200 shot on the spot and 16,000 deported. . . .”

5 October 1942 Informacja Bieżaca (M&G Treblinka, p 47):
“Treblinka. The death camp is once more in operation. . . .The gas chambers function as follows: Outside of the barracks is a 20 HP internal combustion engine, which is in operation around the clock. The end of its exhaust pipe is mounted in a wall of the barracks; the exhaust gases, with the admixture of toxic fluids, which have been specially mixed into the fuel of the engine, kill the people locked up in the barracks . . .”

8 October 1942 Biuletyn Informacyjny (Zimmerman, p 161):
“the vast majority [of the 300,000 Jews deported from Warsaw] were murdered primarily in the gas chambers of the Treblinka concentration camp”

10 October 1942 situational report of the Delegatura (Zimmerman, p 166):
conclusion that “resettlement to the east” was a euphemism for mass murder; deportees from Polish ghettos being sent to Bełzec and Treblinka and there “being subjected to horrific mass murder in gas chambers”

1-15 October 1942, Niepodleglosć (Zimmerman, p 160): on mass murder of Warsaw’s Jews, about 300,000 murdered, according to Zimmerman, mostly by gas

no date, report forwarded to Polish government in exile in London (M&G Treblinka, p 48, M&G give no further information):
“[The Jews] are brought into a sealed chamber, a barrack, approximately 100 people at a time. Outside of the barrack stands an internal combustion engine of 20 HP, which runs around the clock. The mouth of the engine’s exhaust leads through the barrack’s wall, and the people locked up in the barrack are killed by exhaust gases channeled through it that contain toxic fluid additives, which have been especially mixed with the engine fuel.”

6 November 1942 Home Army’s Jewish Affairs Bureau (Zimmerman, p 153): Jewish communities outside Warsaw being liquidated and Jews sent to Bełzec, Sobibór, Treblinka (including Siedlce, Biala Podlaska, Łukow)

2. Tabulation of escapee reports on method of murder at Treblinka
sample = 43 (of 82 Treblinka escapees for whom I could determine a reported method of killing; this is a preliminary summary, still under construction)

36 reported gas
1 reported steam only (Gutman)
2 reported gas and/or steam (Krzepicki, Rabinowicz)
1 reported gas or electricity (Bund report, presumably U Wallach)
3 reported some combination of gas with air pumped out, chlorine, ether, or Zyklon B (A Kon, Rajchman, S Goldberg)

(M&G also cite a report describing the killing method as steam that was sent to London in March 1943 without attributing it to an escapee, an underground source or other informant.)

- - - - -

The key point is that escapees from Treblinka, and others, did not know how those taken to the "bathhouses" were being murdered inside. The SS did not give informational tours or provide handy brochures. So people working in the camp made conjectures, compared observations, rumors, and thinking, and eventually formed a consensus that engine exhaust was the means of murder. As Abraham Krzepicki, a rare escapee who actually saw the chambers (albeit when they were not in operation), forthrightly told Oyneg Shabes interviewers in fall 1942, after his escape from Treblinka, "None of the workers knew exactly how death was caused." (Kermish, To Live with Honor and Die with Honor, p 713)
This is so obvious. It pains me that you have to bash chimps over the head with it time and time again. Will they ever learn?

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Monstrous » Tue Oct 20, 2015 5:45 pm

Hans wrote:
Monstrous wrote:PS-501
http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/dth/fndwagon.html

The Becker Document (501-PS), 16 May 1942 .................. 40
http://holocausthandbooks.com/index.php?page_id=24
Monstrous,

you have really no luck these days. Incidently, I spent the past few weeks just to check the arguments brought forward by Alvarez, Marais and Weckert. And among us: it doesn't look good for them.

Alvarez top three technical arguments to dismiss the letter Becker to Rauff of 16 May 1942 are false:

1. Saurer were always Diesel (and Diesel doesn't kill)

The trucks produced in the Saurer factory in Paris were mostly gasoline powered (see Saurer. Vom Ostschweizer Kleinbetrieb zum internationalen Technologiekonzern, 2003, no page numbers).

2. Saurer had "vacuum-assisted hydraulic brakes", and the "combined hydraulic-pneumatic brakes" mentioned in the letter are fictional.

A combined pneumatic-hydraulic brake existed since the 30s in Europe and was also utilized in trucks in Germany (see ATE Bremsenhandbuch, 1938, p. 111). Saurer were probably the first to introduce this new technique in their trucks (see Ein Jahrhundert Automobiltechnik: Nutzfahrzeuge, section on brakes).

3. "'Manchete'...is not part of the German everyday language nor of technical lingo"

In contrary, "Manschette" was a proper technical term to describe sealings in the hydraulic part of the brake (see ATE Bremsenhandbuch, 1938, p. 82).
Monstrous must shamefully admit that Monstrous is not completely up to date on WWII Saurer vehicles. If Hans would publish a blog post somewhere and point it out to the revisionist authorities on gas van, then they would likely kindly explain what is wrong with the claims.

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Monstrous » Tue Oct 20, 2015 5:57 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote: The key point is that escapees from Treblinka, and others, did not know how those taken to the "bathhouses" were being murdered inside. The SS did not give informational tours or provide handy brochures. So people working in the camp made conjectures, compared observations, rumors, and thinking, and eventually formed a consensus that engine exhaust was the means of murder. As Abraham Krzepicki, a rare escapee who actually saw the chambers (albeit when they were not in operation), forthrightly told Oyneg Shabes interviewers in fall 1942, after his escape from Treblinka, "None of the workers knew exactly how death was caused." (Kermish, To Live with Honor and Die with Honor, p 713)
In fumbling manner SM has stumbled on another reason for how the "convergence of evidence" appeared. Many of the Holocaust stories originate from NS hygienic measure which were misinterpreted. Forced group showering and delousing using Zyklon B, steam, and/or chlorine were misinterpreted as killing methods as rumors milled around in the camps. Remember that many of camp prisoners were from poor Eastern European areas. These activities must have seemed very strange and frightening. Add to this that many were transported on to other camps after hygienic and delousing activities, never to be seen again, and it is not strange that many suspected mass murders.
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Monstrous » Tue Oct 20, 2015 6:28 pm

Hans wrote:
Monstrous wrote: Of course the Vrba-Wetzler report provided the blueprint for many after the 1944. It was widely publicized and of course the communists also learned of it and likely found it useful in order to standardize the story. Allied prosecutors and interrogators "interviewing" witnesses likely expected to hear this version of events and that was consequently what they got (after the necessary "prodding" to help memory).
"Of course" is not argument. You might come through with this at the CODOH Forum and with David and Mary, but not with any critical mind person. We want to see actual evidence, not speculation merely deduced from your unfounded assumption that there had been no mass extermination.

We may infer from your evasive response that you have no evidence that "many later accounts after 1944 started to copy the Vrba–Wetzler report". This is my impression too.

In fact, there is not only no evidence for your copy hypothesis but it's also quite unlikely given that independent Sonderkommando and SS accounts differ way more from the Vrba-Wetzler-report than from each other. As I already said and repeat again answer because you did not answer the point (probably because you did not find anything on it on vho):

I have yet to see any Revisionist explanation why the testimonies of the Sonderkommando prisoners and SS men from Auschwitz stand out in terms of level of detail, reliability and consistency compared to the rest. This is exactly what one would expect if the story of mass extermination were true and it is pretty much the opposite of what one would expect if it were just false rumors circulating in and outside the camp.

Care to explain this?

I'll give you an example. The Wetzler-Vrba report claimed that "two attendants clad in white distribute a towel and a piece of soap to each" in the crematoria. You find such a description in many accounts from hearsay witnesses (see Knowledge of Mass Extermination Among Hungarian Jews Returning from Auschwitz. But with very few and little relevant exceptions, you don't find this among the numerous Sonderkommando and SS eyewitnesses. Just why did they had such a different knowledge, if there were no mass extermination anyway? This different knowledge of SK and SS on the one side, and ordinary prisoners on the other side doesn't make much sense if mass extermination were not true as you Holocaust deniers claim.

But what does make sense: the hearsay witnesses reported about false rumors because these were circulating in the camp and couldn't be checked for outsiders, and the Sonderkommando and SS men did not report about this, because they knew it better from their own experience.
The creation of the standardized Auschwitz Account (SAA) was likely the work of the Auschwitz resistance (lots of communists used to fabricating propaganda). It had earlier spread a wide variety of tales to the world of what happened. However, some form of standardization became increasingly necessary for credibility. The most ridiculous stories were discarded and a somewhat more logical story was developed. The Sonderkomandos in the resistance were likely consulted in order to make a more credible story which in turn explaining their later (limited) "convergence". The SAA also incorporated earlier rumors of camp hygienic measures such as forced group showers being related to mass killings of some groups.

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Monstrous » Tue Oct 20, 2015 6:33 pm

SIXTY YEARS OF PROPAGANDA: Origins, development and decline of the “gas chamber” propaganda lie
http://jan27.org/sixty-years-by-carlo-mattogno/

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 20, 2015 8:02 pm

Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote: The key point is that escapees from Treblinka, and others, did not know how those taken to the "bathhouses" were being murdered inside. The SS did not give informational tours or provide handy brochures. So people working in the camp made conjectures, compared observations, rumors, and thinking, and eventually formed a consensus that engine exhaust was the means of murder. As Abraham Krzepicki, a rare escapee who actually saw the chambers (albeit when they were not in operation), forthrightly told Oyneg Shabes interviewers in fall 1942, after his escape from Treblinka, "None of the workers knew exactly how death was caused." (Kermish, To Live with Honor and Die with Honor, p 713)
. . . another reason for how the "convergence of evidence" appeared. Many of the Holocaust stories originate from NS hygienic measure which were misinterpreted.
Prove your claim, with reference to sources I've mentioned.
Monstrous wrote:Forced group showering and delousing using Zyklon B, steam, and/or chlorine were misinterpreted as killing methods as rumors milled around in the camps.
Why? How? The sources I've quoted make an effort not to explain showers but rather deaths, which they describe as being buried at Treblinka after the murder. While you are at it, please explain how these observations of Krzepicki contain a misinterpretation of "group showering and delousing":
as one stood in front of the entrance to this “bathhouse” one could see hills of lime, and beneath them the giant, still-open mass graves where tens, perhaps hundreds, of thousands of “bathers” lay in eternal rest. Later on, I was told that here, too, they had begun to cremate the bodies in the ditches. . . . Standing next to the “bathhouse” was a large chest. As I later learned, this chest was used for a special kind of Werterfassung. When the machine was in operation and batches of corpses at a time were dragged out from the bathhouse, a Jewish “dentist” would stand there with forceps, examine the mouth of each corpse and extract any gold teeth or platinum caps which he might find there. More than one chestful of gold had been accumulated in this manner.
And these observations of Wiernik:
As soon as the gassing was over, Ivan and Nicholas inspected the results, moved over to the other side, opened the door leading to the platform, and proceeded to heave out the corpses. It was our task to carry the corpses to the ditches. We were dead tired from working all day at the construction site, but we had no recourse and had no choice but to obey. We could have refused, but that would have meant a whipping or death in the same manner or even worse; so we obeyed without grumbling.

We worked under the supervision of a Hauptmann [captain], a medium-sized, bespectacled man whose name I do not know. He whipped us and shouted at us. He beat me, too, without a stop. When I gave him a questioning look, he stopped beating me for a moment and said, "If you weren't the carpenter around here, you would be killed." I looked around and saw that almost all the other workers were sharing my fate. A pack of dogs, along with Germans and Ukrainians, had been let loose on us. Almost one-fourth of the workers was killed. The rest of us tossed their bodies into the ditches without further ado. Fortunately for me, when the Hauptmann left, the Unterscharführer relieved me from this work.

Between ten and twelve thousand people were gassed each day. We built a narrow-gauge track and drove the corpses to the ditches on the rolling platform
Do baths and delousing usually involve the creation of corpses to be disposed of, removing corpses to ditches, and the extraction of gold teeth from the bathers?
Monstrous wrote:Remember that many of camp prisoners were from poor Eastern European areas. These activities must have seemed very strange and frightening. Add to this that many were transported on to other camps after hygienic and delousing activities, never to be seen again, and it is not strange that many suspected mass murders.
The reports I quoted were from the Polish Underground, not camp prisoners. Your "theory" not only fails to explain the corpses, dental gold, etc but it also trips up when you take into account that in Kaunas ghetto, for example, delousing procedures were so strange to the impoverished, backward Jews of your imagination that some of them remarked on the installation of delousing facilities in the ghetto and took their own, informed measures to combat the spread of typhus.

We know that the delousing station in Kaunas was known to Jewish Council secretary Avraham Tory, who wrote in his diary on 20 May 1942 that
A lice disinfection center has been opened in the ghetto.
And on 3 December 1942:
An institute for delousing and destroying various insect pests was recently opened in the Ghetto; 4,000 were designated to be checked by the institute.
Strangely, there's not a note of concern about mass murder in these facilities nor fright, curiosity, confusion/mystification as to their purpose. Nada. It is as though Tory understood that the purpose of the delousing center was to destroy the source of infection and prevent epidemics.

Also, Jack Brauns, a Kaunas ghetto inmate and a doctor (shockingly, this primitive eastern people included physicians and knew of diseases and their causes), recalled the following concerning events in mid-October 1942:
To combat the spread of [typhus], the German authorities established in Kovno a delousing center for wounded German soldiers; it was situated at 4 Vytauto Street. Wounded soldiers were taken off the trains and transported to the center. Their heads were shaved. They were bathed, and their clothes were disinfected. All this work was carried out by Jewish workers brought daily from the Ghetto. . . . An epidemic of typhus, with a high mortality rate, broke out among the Lithuanian workers at the delousing center. . . . There was indeed an epidemic of typhus in the Ghetto [too]. It came from three sources: from the inmates who had to work at the delousing center; from the Ghetto workshops, where articles of clothing received were supposed to have already been disinfected, but where live lice were often found in the clothes; and from inmates transferred from other camps (Zezmer -- nine cases). . . . At the time of the visit of the Lithuanian doctors, twenty-nine people in the Ghetto were infected with typhus. . . . Dr. Brauns gave special instructions to each of the affected families. . . . Dr. Brauns [Jack Brauns' father] was able to increase the distribution of soap, wood, and food rations to the typhus patients. . . . .
Finally, in the clandestine police history of Kovno ghetto, we can read (p 299; from context, this was probably between May and July 1942) that
The Health Office established two institutions in the ghetto for the maintenance of health and hygiene: the bathhouse and the delousing facility, with a special room for disinfecting the clothing.
Indeed, just as though they were people, Jews in the 1940s, the era under discussion, were concerned about the spread of disease, understood the causes of the spread of typhus, for example, and deployed medical and public health knowledge to combat the spread of disease. It is more than doubtful that people confused delousing stations with gas chambers, especially when your so-called baths and delousing facilities produced in Kaunas hygienic results but at Treblinka corpses.

You're floundering badly. You failed on "convergence" of evidence for steam, so you've tried another tired denier cliché, just as easily swatted away as "steam convergence." Which you now seem to have decided to play dumb on.
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 20, 2015 8:13 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:This is so obvious. It pains me that you have to bash chimps over the head with it time and time again.
Yes and no. It is kind of enjoyable to watch Monstrous making such a fool of himself.

Btw, yes, I was implying in my post just above that Monstrous is an anti-Semitic asswipe.
Jeff_36 wrote:Will they ever learn?
Not Monstrous.
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 20, 2015 8:14 pm

Monstrous wrote:. . . lots of communists used to fabricating propaganda . . .
:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 20, 2015 8:16 pm

Monstrous wrote:Monstrous must shamefully admit that Monstrous is not completely up to date on WWII Saurer vehicles. If Hans would publish a blog post somewhere and point it out to the revisionist authorities on gas van, then they would likely kindly explain what is wrong with the claims.
Or, if these revisionist authorities had a shred of honesty, they'd admit their errors. Eh.
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Jeff_36 » Tue Oct 20, 2015 8:29 pm

Monstrous wrote: In fumbling manner SM has stumbled on another reason for how the "convergence of evidence" appeared. Blah Blah Many of the Holocaust stories originate from NS hygienic measure which were misinterpreted. Source? Forced group showering and delousing using Zyklon B, steam, and/or chlorine were misinterpreted as killing methods as rumors milled around in the camps.All witnesses, as well as the guards testified that they were being killed, villagers reported witnissing mass cremations and smelling horrible foul odors of decomposition, have you read the AK report on Belzec? Remember that many of camp prisoners were from poor Eastern European areas. These activities must have seemed very strange and frightening. All of the steam reports came from the grosse aktion, which targeted Warsaw, they were all urban Jews Add to this that many were transported on to other camps after hygienic and delousing activities, never to be seen again, and it is not strange that many suspected mass murders. No, wrong again, no trains ever left Treblinka to go anywhere but back to their points of origin, empty. There is documentary evidence to support this.
Really? is this all you have?

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 20, 2015 8:36 pm

Monstrous continues to misuse the concept of "convergence of evidence." His Grubach link claims convergence of evidence for steam as the murder method at Treblinka - by citing a series of reports, all based on an original report made shortly after the conclusion of the Great Deportation from Warsaw and based on the conjectures of a few early escapees (and that report's editor wrote elsewhere that the method of murder was gas, steam, electricity). Convergence of evidence, OTOH, refers to evidence "from multiple lines of inquiry that point to an unmistakable conclusion."

Further, when confronted with a sampling of early reports on Treblinka which do not give steam prominence, and decidedly fail any conceivable test for convergence of evidence, Monstrous changes the subject from his failed gambit to . . . the hygienic measures that were misunderstood, he says, by impoverished and presumably ignorant victims! And, in the same breath, Monstrous asserts, without proof, that many of the Jews transported to Treblinka and under discussion here were transported to other camps. No one has shown that many Jews - under any definition of "many" - were transported from Treblinka to other camps during fall 1942, the period for which I posted a sampling of Polish underground reports and the period in which a few reports of "steam" were made. Can Monstrous now do so?

Let's add Treblinka, then, to the list of "things that Monstrous holds strong opinions about without having knowledge of them."
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Jeff_36 » Tue Oct 20, 2015 11:11 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Monstrous continues to misuse the concept of "convergence of evidence." His Grubach link claims convergence of evidence for steam as the murder method at Treblinka - by citing a series of reports, all based on an original report made shortly after the conclusion of the Great Deportation from Warsaw and based on the conjectures of a few early escapees (and that report's editor wrote elsewhere that the method of murder was gas, steam, electricity). Convergence of evidence, OTOH, refers to evidence "from multiple lines of inquiry that point to an unmistakable conclusion."

Further, when confronted with a sampling of early reports on Treblinka which do not give steam prominence, and decidedly fail any conceivable test for convergence of evidence, Monstrous changes the subject from his failed gambit to . . . the hygienic measures that were misunderstood, he says, by impoverished and presumably ignorant victims! And, in the same breath, Monstrous asserts, without proof, that many of the Jews transported to Treblinka and under discussion here were transported to other camps. No one has shown that many Jews - under any definition of "many" - were transported from Treblinka to other camps during fall 1942, the period for which I posted a sampling of Polish underground reports and the period in which a few reports of "steam" were made. Can Monstrous now do so?

Let's add Treblinka, then, to the list of "things that Monstrous holds strong opinions about without having knowledge of them."
Had there been transports like he has suggested, it would have been noticed, and there would not have been reports of killing in the first place, or they would have been shut down after a while.

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Xcalibur » Wed Oct 21, 2015 12:34 am

Monstrous, Jesus wept, could you just please state in one coherent essay, just what YOUR {!#%@} POINT IS.

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Jeff_36 » Wed Oct 21, 2015 1:16 am

Xcalibur wrote:Monstrous, Jesus wept, could you just please state in one coherent essay, just what YOUR {!#%@} POINT IS.
"monstrous says that the point of monstrous is to make a monstrous hole in monstrous's own arguments by repeating the term monstrous as many times as possible and by repeating evidenced brain-dead monstrous speculation that will be then used as a monstrous dart-board by SM and the other posters here."

Nathan was right. He is the new David.

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Oct 21, 2015 12:02 pm

NathanC wrote:Moronstrous has nothing to offer to the criticisms of his BS on Auschwitz, and so changes the subject to the old "steam" BS. Truly, he's turning into the new David.
Just because we all see how David routinely pops up with new topics as soon as his claims implode on him, and since we've seen that Monstrous uses the same tactic, I will list out the questions which Monstrous has been asked regarding his claim that Grubach's article proves steam convergence at Treblinka and so on (I've numbered the questions to make it easy for Monstrous to share his wisdom on each one in turn):

1. Monstrous was asked for an explanation of what he meant by "steam-gas", and as to why that version of murder at Treblinka is "more plausible" than engine exhaust. Monstrous had said that he "will contribute" such an explanation but hasn't done so.

2. Monstrous was asked to spell out how "forced group showering and delousing using Zyklon B, steam, and/or chlorine were misinterpreted as killing methods as rumors milled around in the camps" and to prove his claim about this.

3. Related to #2, Monstrous was asked to show how the early reports about extermination at Treblinka - with special reference to sources mentioned in the thread (e.g., Polish underground reports) - were due to camp prisoners from poor eastern European communities misinterpreting forced group “showers” and delousing procedures.

4. Monstrous was requested to explain how disposal of 1000s of corpses and extraction of dental gold from corpses at Treblinka, described by Kzrepicki, Wiernik, and others, really had to do with showering/delousing of camp prisoners.

5. Related to #4, Monstrous was asked whether delousing and showering usually lead to the bathers dying and surrendering their dental gold (it was noted in this regard that elsewhere in the impoverished east, Jewish inmates of the Nazis did not observe corpses and dental gold extraction resulting from the operation of delousing centers).

6. Monstrous was asked whether hygienic baths and delousing usually involve the creation of corpses to be disposed of, removing corpses to ditches, and the extraction of gold teeth from the bathers.

7. Monstrous was asked to prove that many Jews - and he needs to define "many" in doing so - were transported from Treblinka to other camps during fall 1942, the period from which a sampling of Polish underground reports was posted in the thread as well as the period from which a few reports of "steam" were made.

8. Monstrous was asked what his {!#%@} point is.

We can wait - and patiently. But we will want to finish this up before going on to whatever topic Monstrous tries using to divert attention from his multiple failures on the question he raised about Treblinka.
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Oct 21, 2015 12:15 pm

And unfinished business reminds me to ask whether David, or anyone, has finally answered these questions about Majdanek - David's claims and The Lesser Bunny's goofy YouTube:
1. In what way does a plan from March 1942 prove how the bathhouses were used from fall 1942 to fall 1943 – after the bunker and gas chambers were added and the purpose of the facility was updated?

2. Why didn’t the narrator mention the undressing rooms to the south of the showers listed for both barracks in the Polish-Soviet commission report – was this “oversight” because the southern location of the undressing rooms undermines his claim that the prisoners must have undressed to the north of the showers?

3. How does the position of the delousing baths within the shower room prove which way prisoners passed through the barrack?

4. In what way does a photo from summer 1942 provide evidence for how the bathhouse and bunker were used starting around October 1942? Why is the protruding “vestibule” discovered by the narrator not described in either the text or on the diagrams of the Polish-Soviet Commission report (August 1944, as reproduced in Graf & Mattogno)?

5. What are the supposed lies in my SSF posts?
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Monstrous » Thu Oct 22, 2015 12:10 pm

The origin of the shower story:
"In subsequent versions of the story, the reason for experimenting on inmates, using war gases, remained the primary motive 53. The propaganda requirements of the Resistance then invented a new theme, that of the extermination of Jews in gas chambers, which were called “Degasungskammer”. This term was a mistake for Begasungskammer, gas disinfestation chamber, referring to a disinfestation chamber using hydrocyanic acid gas using a DEGESCH-Kreislauf system(standard air recirculation chamber). The combination of gas chambers and shower baths which we have already seen in the letter of 29 August 1942, and which became a recurrent motif of subsequent propaganda, was inspired by two hygienic installations, one still in the design stage, the other in the course of implementation: the first was the Aufnahmegebäude (reception building), which included, under the same roof, 19 Begasungskammern (disinfestation gas chambers) and a shower installation for the inmates, which gave its name to the alleged homicidal gas chambers; the second consisted of two mirror-construction disinfestation installations referred to as Bauwerke (building sites) 5a and 5b, which likewise consisted of a hydrocyanic acid gas chamber and a washing and shower area, referred to in the related diagrams, as Gaskammer andWasch- und Brauseraum, respectively."
http://jan27.org/sixty-years-by-carlo-mattogno/

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Oct 22, 2015 3:46 pm

Monstrous wrote:The origin of the shower story:
"In subsequent versions of the story, the reason for experimenting on inmates, using war gases, remained the primary motive 53. The propaganda requirements of the Resistance then invented a new theme, that of the extermination of Jews in gas chambers, which were called “Degasungskammer”. This term was a mistake for Begasungskammer, gas disinfestation chamber, referring to a disinfestation chamber using hydrocyanic acid gas using a DEGESCH-Kreislauf system(standard air recirculation chamber). The combination of gas chambers and shower baths which we have already seen in the letter of 29 August 1942, and which became a recurrent motif of subsequent propaganda, was inspired by two hygienic installations, one still in the design stage, the other in the course of implementation: the first was the Aufnahmegebäude (reception building), which included, under the same roof, 19 Begasungskammern (disinfestation gas chambers) and a shower installation for the inmates, which gave its name to the alleged homicidal gas chambers; the second consisted of two mirror-construction disinfestation installations referred to as Bauwerke (building sites) 5a and 5b, which likewise consisted of a hydrocyanic acid gas chamber and a washing and shower area, referred to in the related diagrams, as Gaskammer andWasch- und Brauseraum, respectively."
http://jan27.org/sixty-years-by-carlo-mattogno/
Jesus wept yet again.

First, the only shower stories are the one you're trying to sell - and the one the Nazis tried using to deceive their victims.

Second, after you offered showers and delousing as proof of convergence of evidence for steam at Treblinka, you were asked a series of questions about Treblinka but replied with a quotation concerning Auschwitz. LOL. You cite a letter related to Auschwitz dated 29 August 1942 for the "invention" of the so-called gassing "fairy tale" but if you know the sources for Treblinka you will be aware of the Bund's mission, which took place in late July, weeks before your guru thinks the shower story was put into play; in any event above you could have read that reports of murder at Treblinka came as early as late July and that gassing was mentioned in Polish underground reports beginning 17 August - that first report surmising that the gas chamber (not shower barrack) was mobile, which kind of sucks for your "theory" about gassing and showering confusing contemporaries.

Third, you ignored a number of factual problems you've created for yourself - witness testimonies address corpses and grave-digging, along with extraction of dental gold from dead bodies, not bathing; many eastern Jews were well aware of the dangers posed by typhus and conversant in medical responses; there is a massive evidence gap for your earlier claim about resettlement.

Third, you are working alongside David to elevate dodging, obfuscation, and bad tangents to art forms. Congratulations on your achievements in this sphere so far.

Last, are you totally incapable of explaining anything in your own words? Anyway, thanks for the day's levity: Mattogno's confection is not only irrelevant to what you were asked but it is so stupid it's funny.
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Jeff_36 » Thu Oct 22, 2015 3:56 pm

Monstrous has yet to address the fact that no trains ever left Treblinka with any Jews on them. This is proven by numerous documentary sources.

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Oct 22, 2015 4:01 pm

He has yet to address any evidence at all concerning the camp. All he did was to repeat Grubach's discredited attempt to tart up an argument mocking convergence of evidence/consilience of inductions, repeat the equally discredited "backwards Ostjuden" meme regarding hygienic measures, toss out a vacuous and unsupported claim about resettlement, and then try explaining the Treblinka shower/hygiene meme with a quotation from Il Re di Convoluzione - about Auschwitz! Oh, and ignore the points made against his claims/arguments and the questions he was asked.
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri Oct 23, 2015 2:11 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote: Jesus wept yet again.
I'm enjoying this thread. It's surreal. :D