Anti-Intellectualism and the "Dumbing Down" of America

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Re: Anti-Intellectualism and the "Dumbing Down" of America

Post by Poodle » Thu May 28, 2015 4:11 pm

It ain't free. Primary and secondary education all over the EU is a centralised cost, the money ultimately gathered by taxation. After that (and I can speak only for the UK at this point) we have a system of student loans. Basically, if you never earn a lot of money, you pay nothing back - but if you do start to seriously earn, then there is a sliding scale of payback. It appears to be working, although every single student objects to it - but then, every single student in the UK has traditionally objected to (fill in this space).

Easily affordable, yes. Free? No.

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Re: Anti-Intellectualism and the "Dumbing Down" of America

Post by Flash » Fri May 29, 2015 5:51 am

Flash wrote:
Why is it that the Europeans can afford free education up to and including the university while some of the richest counties on the planet (USA, Canada) think they can't? ... What's your reason America?
Xouper:
Be patient. We're working on it. America is becoming more and more socialist and it is only a matter of time before everyone is a ward of the state from cradle to grave.
Well, I think it's not so bad if one has a deadly disease and one doesn't have to lose everything and sell his family into slavery to get sufficient medical help.

And allow me to redact your statement so it reflects the reality a little better ; "Be patient. We are working on it. America is becoming more and more fascistic and it's only a matter of time before everyone is a controlled by a corporation from cradle to grave." ;)
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Re: Anti-Intellectualism and the "Dumbing Down" of America

Post by JO 753 » Fri May 29, 2015 6:40 am

I think the educational system iz a huje skam. A skam thats been around for senturyz. The hart uv it iz a virtual monopoly on brainz. It iz dependent on getting everybody to believ in their credential system. They hav that locked down, so getting peepl to buy credentialz iz eazy. It iz now just a matter uv manajing the market. How hard to squeez to maximize profit.

With online learning, like Kahn Academy getting more common, I am wondering if the old system coud collapse.
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Re: Anti-Intellectualism and the "Dumbing Down" of America

Post by xouper » Fri May 29, 2015 4:33 pm

Flash wrote:
xouper wrote:
Flash wrote:Why is it that the Europeans can afford free education up to and including the university while some of the richest counties on the planet (USA, Canada) think they can't? ... What's your reason America?
Be patient. We're working on it. America is becoming more and more socialist and it is only a matter of time before everyone is a ward of the state from cradle to grave.
Well, I think it's not so bad if one has a deadly disease and one doesn't have to lose everything and sell his family into slavery to get sufficient medical help.
Depending on which report you read, the number two (or three) cause of bankruptcy in Canada is medical (11 to 15 percent of bankruptcies).

As a Canadian citizen I am not totally ignorant of the limitations of Canadian health care. If you are under 65 in Canada, you can easily be bankrupted by a catastrophic medical problem, which is why many Canadians have supplemental health insurance paid by their employer.

I know many Canadians who look down their nose at American health care, perhaps without realizing that there are other countries that do the same to Canada. I also find it amusing when Canadians go to the US to get health care they cannot get in Canada.
Flash wrote:And allow me to redact your statement so it reflects the reality a little better ; "Be patient. We are working on it. America is becoming more and more fascistic and it's only a matter of time before everyone is a controlled by a corporation from cradle to grave." ;)
Cynicism is always appropriate on an anonymous interwebz forum.

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Re: Anti-Intellectualism and the "Dumbing Down" of America

Post by Flash » Sat May 30, 2015 6:19 am

Xouper wrote:
As a Canadian citizen I am not totally ignorant of the limitations of Canadian health care. If you are under 65 in Canada, you can easily be bankrupted by a catastrophic medical problem, which is why many Canadians have supplemental health insurance paid by their employer
.
Let's be clear about this. It's not the medical problems per se that are the insurmountable problem for sick Canadians under 65 because the medical care; doctors, treatments, operations are provided under our medicare and one doesn't have to pay anything for them. It's the lack of the universal drug coverage for those under 65 that is a real problem.

However, this also different in individual provinces. In Ontario, for example, there is a provincial catastrophic drug expenses insurance into which every resident of Ontario is automatically enrolled and which pays for the drugs if the cost exceeds certain fixed number. For example a kidney transplant patient if he/she qualifies gets not only a kidney transplant operation for free under the provincial medicare insurance but also its expensive anti-rejection drugs for life.
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Re: Anti-Intellectualism and the "Dumbing Down" of America

Post by xouper » Sat May 30, 2015 8:02 am

Flash wrote:
xouper wrote:As a Canadian citizen I am not totally ignorant of the limitations of Canadian health care. If you are under 65 in Canada, you can easily be bankrupted by a catastrophic medical problem, which is why many Canadians have supplemental health insurance paid by their employer
Let's be clear about this. It's not the medical problems per se that are the insurmountable problem for sick Canadians under 65 because the medical care; doctors, treatments, operations are provided under our medicare and one doesn't have to pay anything for them. ...
Perhaps that explanation will be of great comfort to the thousands of Canadians each year who went bankrupt after suffering a significant medical problem.

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Re: Anti-Intellectualism and the "Dumbing Down" of America

Post by Flash » Sun May 31, 2015 3:52 am

Xouper wrote:
Perhaps that explanation will be of great comfort to the thousands of Canadians each year who went bankrupt after suffering a significant medical problem.
Like the people who because of the head trauma forgot which Cayman Island bank they stashed their tax free money in and the corresponding password. :mrgreen:
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Re: Anti-Intellectualism and the "Dumbing Down" of America

Post by TJrandom » Sun May 31, 2015 9:32 pm

xouper wrote:
Flash wrote:Why is it that the Europeans can afford free education up to and including the university while some of the richest counties on the planet (USA, Canada) think they can't? ... What's your reason America?
Be patient. We're working on it. America is becoming more and more socialist and it is only a matter of time before everyone is a ward of the state from cradle to grave.
Is America really becoming more socialist, or actually going in the other direction? Lets see – over time, reductions in tax spending on education, infrastructure, and welfare… plus reduction in taxes paid by the wealthy and by corporations. Talk of reducing or needs testing Social Security. All vs what - government oversight of medical insurance?

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Re: Anti-Intellectualism and the "Dumbing Down" of America

Post by xouper » Sun May 31, 2015 11:17 pm

TJrandom wrote:Is America really becoming more socialist, ...
Yes. Contrary to your piddling analysis, the data clearly show the government (at all levels) is engaged in more "wealth redistribution" than before.

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Re: Anti-Intellectualism and the "Dumbing Down" of America

Post by scrmbldggs » Sun May 31, 2015 11:31 pm

In which direction?
.
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Re: Anti-Intellectualism and the "Dumbing Down" of America

Post by xouper » Sun May 31, 2015 11:51 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:In which direction?
In all sorts of directions. The government takes money from some people and gives it to other people. Welfare and farm subsidies are examples of "redistribution".

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Re: Anti-Intellectualism and the "Dumbing Down" of America

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Jun 01, 2015 12:10 am

xouper wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:In which direction?
In all sorts of directions. The government takes money from some people and gives it to other people. Welfare and farm subsidies are examples of "redistribution".
Only some... Who are those people?
.
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Re: Anti-Intellectualism and the "Dumbing Down" of America

Post by xouper » Mon Jun 01, 2015 1:13 am

scrmbldggs wrote:
xouper wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:In which direction?
In all sorts of directions. The government takes money from some people and gives it to other people. Welfare and farm subsidies are examples of "redistribution".
Only some... Who are those people?
If you have a point you want to make, then please just make it.

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Re: Anti-Intellectualism and the "Dumbing Down" of America

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Jun 01, 2015 3:14 am

xouper wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
xouper wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:In which direction?
In all sorts of directions. The government takes money from some people and gives it to other people. Welfare and farm subsidies are examples of "redistribution".
Only some... Who are those people?
If you have a point you want to make, then please just make it.
Apologies, xoup.

Yes, I have a point, which, of course, is more than just one and all of which essentially amounts to a futile and depressing griping about how I perceive the current system.

So I'll "let you loose" with a simple nvrmd. :-P
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Re: Anti-Intellectualism and the "Dumbing Down" of America

Post by nmblum88 » Mon Jun 01, 2015 4:18 am

Pancho and Lefty, sorta:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-4uKgXRnpI

Christ, the wonder of it!! How you keep all those yellow balls in the air at one time: now you are answering your own posts and thanking yourself as the author and the reader…
What a forte!!
Such a talent!

LOL… and of course the thanking here IS taking on an entirely new dimension: some of it now appears to be, if not illegal, decidedly unethical

I'll leave the labeling of the dimension up to you… suffice it to say however,that is isn't included in Einsteinian Physics….

And ""the government takes money from some people and gives to other people" isn't really any recognizable version of any known economic policy either.
Pre-Keynesian or Post-Keynesian….

I suspect you think you are referring to Marxism, but more likely you are a bit confused between what are your personal gripes - not getting what YOU think is coming to YOU by some sort of self-conceived entitlement - and anything even vaguely connected with how actual human beings work at living together within some kind of workable system.
Without having to continually resort to blowing each other's brains out.
Or, as in your case, just day dreaming about doing so.
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Re: Anti-Intellectualism and the "Dumbing Down" of America

Post by TJrandom » Mon Jun 01, 2015 4:42 am

xouper wrote:
TJrandom wrote:Is America really becoming more socialist, ...
Yes. Contrary to your piddling analysis, the data clearly show the government (at all levels) is engaged in more "wealth redistribution" than before.
From the poor to the rich?

I don`t have data either way - but your initial statement was `more socialist`, which implies a change over time. My `piddling` examples were from poor to rich, but presumably you might have a few of from rich to poor? If not, no worries.

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Re: Anti-Intellectualism and the "Dumbing Down" of America

Post by JO 753 » Mon Jun 01, 2015 6:42 am

scrmbldggs wrote:
xouper wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:In which direction?
In all sorts of directions. The government takes money from some people and gives it to other people. Welfare and farm subsidies are examples of "redistribution".
Only some... Who are those people?
Ye! Werez mine?
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Re: Anti-Intellectualism and the "Dumbing Down" of America

Post by Tom Palven » Mon Jun 01, 2015 6:46 am

TJrandom wrote:IMO.... Education needs to be funded. Private cult schools need to be eliminated, including home schooling. A nation-wide mandatory curriculum, attendance requirement, and a uniform testing standard need to be implemented. Certainly not everyone needs to go to college – and colleges and universities need to limit enrollment to those who have made it thru the mandatory gauntlet.
Gotta disagree. As a radical individualist I'd like to see the US government out of the education business, out of the marriage business, out of the war business, and, in fact, out of beautiful North America.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
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Re: Anti-Intellectualism and the "Dumbing Down" of America

Post by JO 753 » Mon Jun 01, 2015 6:54 am

Didnt The Ayatolla Khomeni say just about the same thing?
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Re: Anti-Intellectualism and the "Dumbing Down" of America

Post by TJrandom » Mon Jun 01, 2015 6:56 am

Tom-Palven wrote:
TJrandom wrote:IMO.... Education needs to be funded. Private cult schools need to be eliminated, including home schooling. A nation-wide mandatory curriculum, attendance requirement, and a uniform testing standard need to be implemented. Certainly not everyone needs to go to college – and colleges and universities need to limit enrollment to those who have made it thru the mandatory gauntlet.
Gotta disagree. As a radical individualist I'd like to see the US government out of the education business, out of the marriage business, out of the war business, and, in fact, out of beautiful North America.
Soo dissolve the US Government, and just leave inhabitants of the NA landmass (sorry Canadians) fend for themselves without collective programs that shape who they are? Let the poor – those who can`t afford to send their kids to primary school, keep them at home; uneducated, un-inoculated, malnourished, illiterate?

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Re: Anti-Intellectualism and the "Dumbing Down" of America

Post by Tom Palven » Mon Jun 01, 2015 6:56 am

JO 753 wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
xouper wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:In which direction?
In all sorts of directions. The government takes money from some people and gives it to other people. Welfare and farm subsidies are examples of "redistribution".
Only some... Who are those people?
Ye! Werez mine?
Was away for two weeks. Things have changed here. What happened to the Thanx button?

Wanted to thank you and also Xouper for his post of Sat May 30,2015 8:02 am (No more numbering!).
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Re: Anti-Intellectualism and the "Dumbing Down" of America

Post by JO 753 » Mon Jun 01, 2015 8:42 am

Ye, it sucks. Like going from a Lexus to a Chevette.
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Re: Anti-Intellectualism and the "Dumbing Down" of America

Post by Tom Palven » Mon Jun 01, 2015 10:29 am

JO 753 wrote:Ye, it sucks. Like going from a Lexus to a Chevette.
How the hek can I put a thanx on hear?
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
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Re: Anti-Intellectualism and the "Dumbing Down" of America

Post by TJrandom » Mon Jun 01, 2015 10:31 am

Tom-Palven wrote:
JO 753 wrote:Ye, it sucks. Like going from a Lexus to a Chevette.
How the hek can I put a thanx on hear?
Easy - you just quote my post and say `Thanks`... :D (But that feature has gone away...)

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Re: Anti-Intellectualism and the "Dumbing Down" of America

Post by Gord » Mon Jun 01, 2015 11:07 am

Tom-Palven wrote:Was away for two weeks. Things have changed here. What happened to the Thanx button?
It's a whole new place!

There is no Thanks button anymore, but some people are getting around it by putting phony "Thanks from:" in their sigs.
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Re: Anti-Intellectualism and the "Dumbing Down" of America

Post by Tom Palven » Mon Jun 01, 2015 12:24 pm

TJrandom wrote:
Tom-Palven wrote:
JO 753 wrote:Ye, it sucks. Like going from a Lexus to a Chevette.
How the hek can I put a thanx on hear?
Easy - you just quote my post and say `Thanks`... :D (But that feature has gone away...)
Thanks! (Seems a little inefficient.)
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
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Re: Anti-Intellectualism and the "Dumbing Down" of America

Post by Tom Palven » Mon Jun 01, 2015 12:26 pm

Gord wrote:
Tom-Palven wrote:Was away for two weeks. Things have changed here. What happened to the Thanx button?
It's a whole new place!

There is no Thanks button anymore, but some people are getting around it by putting phony "Thanks from:" in their sigs.
Thanks, Gord.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
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Re: Anti-Intellectualism and the "Dumbing Down" of America

Post by Gord » Mon Jun 01, 2015 12:30 pm

I almost put that in my sig. :twitch:
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Re: Anti-Intellectualism and the "Dumbing Down" of America

Post by nmblum88 » Mon Jun 01, 2015 1:54 pm

Happily anti-intellectualism and the dumbing down of America have not infected this Forum… if we do say so ourselves…
Because it's ALWAYS the other guy who is suffering from the debilities that mark the common clay…
Oh that other guy!!
If he only had our smarts, or even our library cards!!
Or had our easy access to the other wise men who would, in an equable and just world, rule the roost.

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Re: Anti-Intellectualism and the "Dumbing Down" of America

Post by xouper » Mon Jun 01, 2015 6:17 pm

TJrandom wrote:
xouper wrote:
TJrandom wrote:Is America really becoming more socialist, ...
Yes. Contrary to your piddling analysis, the data clearly show the government (at all levels) is engaged in more "wealth redistribution" than before.
From the poor to the rich?

I don`t have data either way - but your initial statement was `more socialist`, which implies a change over time. My `piddling` examples were from poor to rich, but presumably you might have a few of from rich to poor? If not, no worries.
Are you seriously saying you cannot find any examples of wealth redistribution from rich to poor? Seriously?

Here is the law in California:
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displ ... 00-17030.1
WELFARE AND INSTITUTIONS CODE

17000. Every county and every city and county shall relieve and support all incompetent, poor, indigent persons, and those incapacitated by age, disease, or accident, lawfully resident therein, when such persons are not supported and relieved by their relatives or friends, by their own means, or by state hospitals or other state or private institutions.
Since the state of California gets about half of its revenue from the top one percent of earners ($500,000 and up), that welfare law is a clear example of wealth redistribution from rich to poor.

More welfare details here:
http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2012/jul ... of-the-us/

Here's a more specific example in California of redistribution from rich to poor:

Free money for poor college students:
http://www.calgrants.org/index.cfm?navId=12

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Re: Anti-Intellectualism and the "Dumbing Down" of America

Post by zeuzzz » Mon Jun 01, 2015 9:13 pm

Sorry to just Butt in without really reading content, but just from the title, I think Bertrand Russell summed it up pretty well, so well I put this together.

Image

It's standardized tests combined with institutionalized eduction that's become the main issue as I see it.

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Re: Anti-Intellectualism and the "Dumbing Down" of America

Post by TJrandom » Mon Jun 01, 2015 10:08 pm

xouper wrote:
TJrandom wrote:
xouper wrote:
TJrandom wrote:Is America really becoming more socialist, ...
Yes. Contrary to your piddling analysis, the data clearly show the government (at all levels) is engaged in more "wealth redistribution" than before.
From the poor to the rich?

I don`t have data either way - but your initial statement was `more socialist`, which implies a change over time. My `piddling` examples were from poor to rich, but presumably you might have a few of from rich to poor? If not, no worries.
Are you seriously saying you cannot find any examples of wealth redistribution from rich to poor? Seriously?

Here is the law in California:
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displ ... 00-17030.1
WELFARE AND INSTITUTIONS CODE

17000. Every county and every city and county shall relieve and support all incompetent, poor, indigent persons, and those incapacitated by age, disease, or accident, lawfully resident therein, when such persons are not supported and relieved by their relatives or friends, by their own means, or by state hospitals or other state or private institutions.
Since the state of California gets about half of its revenue from the top one percent of earners ($500,000 and up), that welfare law is a clear example of wealth redistribution from rich to poor.

More welfare details here:
http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2012/jul ... of-the-us/

Here's a more specific example in California of redistribution from rich to poor:

Free money for poor college students:
http://www.calgrants.org/index.cfm?navId=12
Of course there are wealth distribution programs - but your statement was `more`. I don`t have the data - but more? So say compare 1960 and 2014 - tax rates, investments in education, subsidies for oil importers and other multinationals (military, etc.), - more, or less?

As for earners in that $500k+ bracket, in the not so distant past their marginal tax rate was 50% or so, but is now what - but less for sure.

Again, I don`t have the answer - but on the surface it seems to me that `less socialist` is the direction.

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Re: Anti-Intellectualism and the "Dumbing Down" of America

Post by JO 753 » Mon Jun 01, 2015 10:19 pm

Good post, zeuzzz. The kind uv post wich woud be worthy uv a 'thanks' if such a thing existed.
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Re: Anti-Intellectualism and the "Dumbing Down" of America

Post by xouper » Tue Jun 02, 2015 6:21 am

TJrandom wrote:Of course there are wealth distribution programs - but your statement was `more`. I don`t have the data - but more?
OK, I get your point. I think the data exist somewhere, but I can't be bothered to find it. Which means my claim remains unsubstantiated. I can show you data going back a hundred years showing increased spending (as a percentage of GDP) for all the major rich-to-poor redistributions, but I do not have data for all redistributions going in all directions. Sorry.

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Re: Anti-Intellectualism and the "Dumbing Down" of America

Post by TJrandom » Tue Jun 02, 2015 11:29 am

Not a problem - I suspect we might still disagree on whether it is good, or bad for society, individuals, or even the government. :roll:

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Re: Anti-Intellectualism and the "Dumbing Down" of America

Post by TJrandom » Tue Jun 02, 2015 7:54 pm

Nevada just raised taxes to better fund education – supported by GOP senators and governor. A great start…

http://news.yahoo.com/nevada-gop-govern ... itics.html

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Re: Anti-Intellectualism and the "Dumbing Down" of America

Post by Gord » Wed Jun 03, 2015 6:17 am

scrmbldggs wrote:Found thanks to Gord's posts Image in the whatcha watchin' topic:

[ytube][/ytube]
Try this one, it's related to education finance:

[ytube][/ytube]
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE
Is Trump in jail yet?

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Re: Anti-Intellectualism and the "Dumbing Down" of America

Post by Frank Hoffman » Wed Jun 03, 2015 9:51 am

Example of the "Dumbing Down" (From a local newspaper);
"...Police say the train was stopped at the Euclid (YOO'-klihd) Avenue station when the suspect approached the woman..."
--------------------------------
So now we have to be reminded how to pronounce Euclid.

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Re: Anti-Intellectualism and the "Dumbing Down" of America

Post by JO 753 » Wed Jun 03, 2015 10:22 am

Or the reporter wuz calling the reader a 'klihd'.
Gubmint for us
http://www.7532020.com
not the rich.

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Re: Anti-Intellectualism and the "Dumbing Down" of America

Post by JO 753 » Wed Jun 03, 2015 10:23 am

Or a negativ klihd. The h makes no sens tho. Maybe its an acronym.
Gubmint for us
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