A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

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Matthew Ellard
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Tom Palven and Bobbo are idiots

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:21 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist a day ago wrote: I'd be surprised if a Non USA citizen acting outside the USA can be charged under the Espionage Act
bobbo_the_Pragmatist today wrote: On Friday, Mr. Prigozhin was one of 13 Russians indicted by a federal grand jury for interfering in the American election.
You mean these Russian citizens in Russia? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:24 am

What are you hebephrenic about Matt? Mr. Prigozhin was not charged under the Espionage Act. It was a different "ticket" if you will.

Try to be relevant.
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Tom Palven and Bobbo are idiots

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:25 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:The contract does not obviate other civil and criminal law statutes. Silly to post such nonsense.
I never said it did. I simply stated that the terms and conditions of the contract entered into on purchase of the ticket defined the theatre owners rights. , which is what you asked.

You are so stupid you changed goal posts to the person committing the act's rights.
:lol: :lol:

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Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:26 am

.........simple NOT TRUE. downright silly. I'm out.
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Tom Palven and Bobbo are idiots

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:37 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Matt: why can't you yell Fire in a theater when there is no fire?...……..from the theater owners perspective???
Matthew Ellard wrote: Step 1. What are the terms and conditions of the contract entered into when you purchased the ticket? ( Hint : It's contract law )
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: The contract does not obviate other civil and criminal law statutes. Silly to post such nonsense.
You moron. the crime is not commited by the theatre owner but the person shouting fire.

You specifically asked about the theatre own's perspective. That was your pathetic attempt to change goal posts. :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:44 am

..........because the theater owner has property rights. Some but not anywhere near all such property rights are transferred temporarily to theater goeers via the ticket. Amusing you think the contract rights are mutually exclusive.

I know.......its hard to keep up when you think your on top.
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Tom Palven and Bobbo are Idiots

Post by Tom Palven » Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:40 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:16 am
Tom Palven wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 6:42 am
The First Amendment in the Bill of Rights reads:
Congress shall make no laws respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging freedom of freedom of speech or of the press..."
The US Espionage Act (1917) specifically sets aside the first amendment if certain conditions exist. This is the act Assange is being charged with.

I have no idea why you and Bobbo think Assange can't be charged under the USA Espionage Act 1917, when he has specifically been indicted under that Act.
Once again, Matt, do you think that Eugene Debs' first amendment rights were protected and that justice was served when he he was convicted and sent to prison under the 1917 Espionage Act for speaking out against the WW I military draft?

I think that this is a relevant question relating to your attitude regarding free speech.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:42 pm

I just reread the first two pages of this thread. Out of Breath made a good post. Matts position is pretty well telegraphed. Nonetheless.............the most beneficial service of this forum is for our ideas and positions to grow/change in the contest and consideration of arguments? So, I second Tom's request just above. I was going to draft a similar request regarding Assange. but the two are the same question.

Let's see if there has been any growth and change.

I think Tom has already stated that Debs was "innocent" which is in line with the Schenck case being overturned.................if anyone cares what the Supreme Court rules (Matt????).................So...the more open question really is about Assange.

My own view expressly is I value TRUTH over Lies. This negates any dispute about details like who when where and so forth..............as long as, and consistent with First Amendment protection.....the Truth, ie what is said or posted, is actually the Truth, or even close enough and not a dodge to include propaganda or misdirection.....I know how some like to quibble and confuse Capital Truth with whatever some advocate/spin meister might say.
From everything I have seen, Assange only published the truth, or close enough to it. Some might manufacture a claim that some kind of National Security Interest was involved/revealed/sacrificed. Absent such revelations revealing "troop movements" or the equivalent, I don't think those arguments stand up even if true. The TRUTH is that important......more than the excuses to protect lies.
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Tom Palven and Bobbo are idiots

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:50 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: ..........because the theater owner has property rights.
What has property rights got to do with someone calling fire in a theater? Are you so stupid, you think there is a difference between a promoter leasing a space for a one off show and a person who owns the actual building.....if someone yells "fire"?

I have already informed you that Justice Holmes states exactly what his orbiter is in Schenck v. United States, 249 U.S. 47 (1919), is. At no point does he mention "property rights". You are making stuff up as you go and somehow got confused with the legal concept of "real property".

Do you have a case you can show me that connect "property rights" with customers shouting "Fire" ? That's a big "No" ,isn't it?

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Some but not anywhere near all such property rights are transferred temporarily to theater goeers via the ticket. Amusing you think the contract rights are mutually exclusive. I know.......its hard to keep up when you think your on top.
This last paragraph doesn't even make sense. :lol: :lol:

"Real Property at Law"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_property

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Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:29 am

Derp.
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Tom Palven is an idiot 3

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:46 am

Tom Palven wrote:Matt, do you think that Eugene Debs' first amendment rights were protected and that justice was served when he he was convicted and sent to prison under the 1917 Espionage Act for speaking out against the WW I military draft?
The argument of the Federal Government was that Debs was attempting to arouse mutiny and treason by preventing the drafting of soldiers into the United States Army. This type of speech was outlawed in the United States with the Espionage Act of June 15, 1917. The defense argued that Debs was entitled to the rights of free speech provided for in the first amendment of the Bill of Rights. This was one of three cases decided in 1919 in which the Court had upheld convictions that restricted free speech.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debs_v._United_States

Unanimous Decision / US Supreme Court / Conviction upheld
Chief Justice Edward D. White
Justice Joseph McKenna ·
Justice Oliver W. Holmes Jr.
Justice William R. Day ·
Justice Willis Van Devanter
Justice Mahlon Pitney ·
Justice James C. McReynolds
Justice Louis Brandeis ·
Justice John H. Clarke

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Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:08 am

Matt: why don't you answer direct questions?

Try again..................
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Tom Palven is an idiot 3

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:15 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:08 am
Matt: why don't you answer direct questions?

Try again..................
No. I have directly answered the question directly using the ratio decidendi of the unanimous decision of the Supreme Court of the United States, There was a foreign beneficiary, Germany. There was a call by Eugene Debs and publication calling for the refusal of citizens to comply with USA conscription (the military). Eugene Deb was knew the law before he made the publication. All the legislative thresholds were there, the ratio from Schenck v. United States, 249 U.S. 47 (1919) was specifically invoked and he was convicted and also lost on appeal.

It is you and Tom Palven's problem if you don't have any grounds for appeal.

You may be aware that Germany did exactly the same in Russia, by paying for Lenin's publications in Russia, then putting Lenin on a train, from Switzerland, through Germany, to Russia to get Russia to leave the war. Russia left the war.

Let me know when you two construct your appeal submissions.
:lol:

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Tom Palven is an idiot 3

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:25 am

One of the more entertaining claims you and Tom Palven made was that Julian Assange cannot be indicted as a foreign citizen, whereas the legislation states that he can.

However at no point did you ask me if Wikileaks, a foreign company registered in Iceland, is protected by the first amendment for the USA press.
:lol:

Is Pravda covered by the USA's first amendment? :lol:

What about Osama Bin Laden's publications stating that all Americans must be killed?

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Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:37 pm

Matt: We keep asking you what YOU THINK. You have answered you are in lock step with the Supremes in their application of the Espionage Act re Debs. Ok. I can accept that lack of imagination. ((Actually, I don't know enough about Debs.....but the squibs I have read make me think he stepped over pure speech into urging action.....so, yeah....Jail for Debs.))

The question is till open re Assange: what do you think should happen to Assange???? Your own values. Jail or Monument?????????????? This obviates the interesting questions you ask just above. Happy to engage them when you do the same to the long standing question.

Jail or Monument.????? You have a blank slate: no laws apply. Just your common good sense and decency. GO=================>
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Tom Palven is an idiot 3

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:22 pm

bobbo wrote: Matt: We keep asking you what YOU THINK.
Assange is an idiot, who thought the political left spectrum was behind him in Australia. He wanted to become an Australian senator. However, he wanted notoriety again and took money and information from Russia. The Russian outwitted Assange and Assange conspired with Russia to place a right wing idiot ( Trump) in the Whitehouse. Assange and his tiny remaining group sit around all day feeling betrayed by the left, while the Russians are running Wikileaks. The Left political spectrum in Australia, see Assange as the idiot who put a fascist in, in the USA. They hate him.
bobbo wrote: You have answered you are in lock step with the Supremes in their application of the Espionage Act re Debs.
As you are unable to offer reason to appeal the case and it is your Supreme Court........so are you.
bobbo wrote: The question is till open re Assange: what do you think should happen to Assange????
Christ you are stupid. I have said this over and over again. Assange should be offered due process and go to a trail and let his defense lawyers do what they can.

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Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:42 pm

......and what should the result be?
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Tom Palven is an idiot 3

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:20 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:......and what should the result be?
I don't know. I haven't heard the defense arguments. That's the point of being a judge. You have to listen to both sides of the argument.

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Re: Tom Palven is an idiot 3

Post by Gord » Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:46 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:22 pm
Assange should be offered due process and go to a trail and let his defense lawyers do what they can.
trial

If he just goes to a trail he might not come back. :P
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Re: Tom Palven is an idiot 3

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Dec 16, 2018 4:18 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:20 am
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:......and what should the result be?
I don't know. I haven't heard the defense arguments. That's the point of being a judge. You have to listen to both sides of the argument.
Sorry Matty Boy: but you've been asked to THINK FOR YOURSELF. So far, you have been unable to do so. How come? The question to you is to be the wheel, not the cog.

Palven and myself have already answered: Monument. We value Truth over Lies. You appear to value staying in line with what you are told.

JAIL or MONUMENT: What do you THINK...Matt?

After that, but much in the same mode: why wouldn't Pentagon Papers cause an immediate dismissal of the case?
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Tom Palven and Bobbo are idiots

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Dec 17, 2018 12:24 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Sorry Matty Boy: but you've been asked to THINK FOR YOURSELF.
What is your problem? I read the rulings and agree with them. You refuse to read any of the rulings and thus wouldn't have a clue if you agreed with them or not. Can you se ehow stupid you are?

What makes you exceptionally stupid is that I did offer my personal opinion that the Germans in WWI did pay for Lenin's communist publications and transported Lenin, from Switzerland, through Germany to remove Russian from the war. I stated how this was similar to Germany's activities in the USA with Eugene Debs asking people to avoid conscription.

I assume you don't know who Lenin is, as you are a complete idiot who thought Wikileaks, in Iceland, was a USA publishing company protected by the first amendment of the USA's constitution. .
:lol: :lol: :lol:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: JAIL or MONUMENT: What do you THINK...Matt?
Again, as you are retarded, I have already informed you that I do not have all the facts to make a decision. I will simply wait for Julian Assange's defense team to lay out their defense.

I understand that you and Tom Palven don't care about facts. I can see that in every one of your posts. :lol: :lol:

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Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:11 am

Ha, ha. Matt....you are a legend in your own mind. Still a puzzle to me why you won't state a simple truth: your own opinion. More based on VALUES, which argumentatively you lack, than on so called facts.

The facts for my value based opinion are that Assange in RELEVANT part only acted to publish papers that he had no part in stealing in the first place beyond letting it be known that he was in the business of publishing secrets. It doesn't matter then who stole them or why.

After that, the Pentagon Papers case is dispositive in my view although it dealt with prior restraint.....but still the relevant issues are presented here and pros and cons of the issues here: https://firstamendmentwatch.org/wikilea ... the-press/.

Don't clients come to you for advice on how their cases would likely turn out? What do you do?? Take their money and say you can't tell them until after their cases is decided? Is that what you do Matt????? BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH. Maybe tell them about what Germany did in WW2?

If you spent one tenth of your time in honest consideration of values that affect what kind of society we are making for ourselves instead of 90% of your time spent mindlessly berating people and sending them on wild goose chases........you could have answered this question for yourself by page two of this thread and also have a position to advise all those who are curious................
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Tom Palven and Bobbo are idiots

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:37 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Ha, ha. Matt....you are a legend in your own mind.
Nope. I'm a lawyer. As you refuse to read the actual cases yourself, you don't have a clue if you agree with the Supreme Court or not. That means you don't know either the precedent or how the judges reached their decision.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:The facts for my value based opinion are that Assange in RELEVANT
Set out all the facts concerning Assange. I don't know what they are. I am waiting for his defense team to disclose those facts during "discovery". You do know what "discovery" is don't you? :lol: :lol:

What is Discovery at Law?
https://legalvision.com.au/what-is-discovery/
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:He (Assange) had no part in stealing in the first place beyond letting it be known that he was in the business of publishing secrets.
You mean he knowingly received stolen private property? Is that legal now? :lol: :lol: :lol:

You are just stupid and confused Bobbo.

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Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:37 pm

Kinda Ironic.

The Title of this Thread.
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Tom Palven is an idiot 3

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Dec 27, 2018 1:45 am

Julian Assange's cat has left the Ecuadorian embassy,. last week, suggesting Assange is also about to leave.

https://www.repubblica.it/esteri/2018/1 ... refresh_ce