JREF forum not allowing any new signups?

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Re: JREF forum not allowing any new signups?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri Jul 11, 2014 2:12 am

zeuzzz wrote:The internet and cyberspace in the next few decades is totally going to revolutionize the way we not only vote but how our very democracies and political structures/institutions function.
39% of the world's population have access to the internet. Are you proposing we disenfranchise 61% of the world's voters?

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Re: JREF forum not allowing any new signups?

Post by Scott Mayers » Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:41 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
zeuzzz wrote:The internet and cyberspace in the next few decades is totally going to revolutionize the way we not only vote but how our very democracies and political structures/institutions function.
39% of the world's population have access to the internet. Are you proposing we disenfranchise 61% of the world's voters?
It could eventually be done if we passed laws that required everyone to have at least a computer and Internet access. I understood that the States actually took the unusual step with regards to cell phones requiring everyone requiring a right to cell phones, at least for 911 emergency capacities.
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Re: JREF forum not allowing any new signups?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri Jul 11, 2014 5:28 am

Scott Mayers wrote: It could eventually be done if we passed laws that required everyone to have at least a computer and Internet access.
So those 3,000,000 a year people who can't afford food should be arrested for not having internet access. Uh Huh. How democratic of you.
Scott Mayers wrote:I understood that the States actually took the unusual step with regards to cell phones requiring everyone requiring a right to cell phones, at least for 911 emergency capacities.
90% of American adults have a cell phone, Are you suggesting 30 million American adults are criminals for not having a mobile phone?

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Re: JREF forum not allowing any new signups?

Post by Scott Mayers » Fri Jul 11, 2014 6:12 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Scott Mayers wrote: It could eventually be done if we passed laws that required everyone to have at least a computer and Internet access.
So those 3,000,000 a year people who can't afford food should be arrested for not having internet access. Uh Huh. How democratic of you.
Scott Mayers wrote:I understood that the States actually took the unusual step with regards to cell phones requiring everyone requiring a right to cell phones, at least for 911 emergency capacities.
90% of American adults have a cell phone, Are you suggesting 30 million American adults are criminals for not having a mobile phone?
I'm confused at how you assumed this here. If you are assuming "required" meant that individuals would be 'forced' to have computers or Internet access as a burden to them personally, I would agree that what you are saying would be absurd. I meant that if certain things like given technology become a necessity, then the "requirement" would only mean that people MUST have a right to access these things with relative ease through things like a minimum allowance by laws and taxation that provide these technologies to the people.

See http://www.fcc.gov/lifeline where in the U.S. they provide this for good reason. I know that even here in my city now, they have removed all local phone booths, for instance. Also, here in Canada, we are deconstructing our public postal services due to the costs of keeping them up and the fact that for those who make them feasible to keep such services going all rely on email now. These things act to naturally discriminate already against people who can't afford them. My regular land-line phone services a few years back simply died one day and I had a great struggle trying to contact the phone company since there were no phone booths anymore. I finally was able to get to their in-town office only to be turned away since they don't handle public customers anymore and had to still find a pay phone for which took me a long wait even when I did finally find one. Then they told me that my phone problems had to be due to my apartment building, not the phone company; my building manager assured me back that it had nothing to do with them. When I finally demanded they get someone to check it out immediately, they told me that I can have a service personnel come out in a week's time! I ended up switching to a different company and when I did receive full Internet/phone/cable access again by this new company, I emailed the president of the former company in complaint. Then he had the nerve to only respond that their staff should have offered me the right to have an emergency service worker come out ....at my expense ($500 service charge!)

So, in respect to "requirement" above, I'm referring to the fact that government MUST provide minimal services for those technologies without undue costs on such necessary services.
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Re: JREF forum not allowing any new signups?

Post by zeuzzz » Fri Jul 11, 2014 12:11 pm

Even things like youtube ratings for each candidates speeches are a majorly more accurate reflection on their actual popularity than we get from the mainstream media coverage, who tend to only focus on about four people each year at the expense of the other candidtaes, who generally have better policies, but less corporate support.

Democracy by youtube by 2034 I reckon. Or something like that. Sounds weird but just seems how it's gona happen. Either way opinions and policies that used to be marginalized will finally get an adequate hearing, especially from the younger generation, who may hardly remeber what a TV is within 20 years.
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Re: JREF forum not allowing any new signups?

Post by Scott Mayers » Fri Jul 11, 2014 12:29 pm

zeuzz, you seem to be responding to another thread here. Did you intend to post here?
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Re: JREF forum not allowing any new signups?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Jul 12, 2014 2:38 am

Scott Mayers wrote: I know that even here in my city now, they have removed all local phone booths, for instance. Also, here in Canada, we are deconstructing our public postal services due to the costs of keeping them up and the fact that for those who make them feasible to keep such services going all rely on email now. These things act to naturally discriminate already against people who can't afford them.
That's right. Therefore the people with low incomes must be able to vote so they can have a say in the removal of services that may be needed by the poor. Voting in Australia is compulsory. Compulsory voting ensures the poor are equally represented.

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Re: JREF forum not allowing any new signups?

Post by Scott Mayers » Sat Jul 12, 2014 10:26 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Scott Mayers wrote: I know that even here in my city now, they have removed all local phone booths, for instance. Also, here in Canada, we are deconstructing our public postal services due to the costs of keeping them up and the fact that for those who make them feasible to keep such services going all rely on email now. These things act to naturally discriminate already against people who can't afford them.
That's right. Therefore the people with low incomes must be able to vote so they can have a say in the removal of services that may be needed by the poor. Voting in Australia is compulsory. Compulsory voting ensures the poor are equally represented.
That's interesting. I've heard arguments for and against this before but thought that there was always something more troubling that bothered most people about the compulsory factor. (I can't remember offhand what that was.) What I'm more troubled with, especially with our British commonwealth countries is how our present governments are able to stay in power until a Non-Confidence vote in which they keep raising the bar to what can be determined, "Non-Confidence". We all elect through representatives but in the U.S. they chose terms to define this to prevent certain abuses of this.

I question whether our ability to affect government change the way we do it in Common Wealth countries is sufficiently capable of democratic accountability even with or without compulsory voting. Here in Canada, even our ability to form new political parties is hampered now because the present ones have collectively worked together to prevent them with greater burdens set in law. And our representatives must follow party line policies with more strictness than the Americans.
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Re: JREF forum not allowing any new signups?

Post by Gord » Sat Jul 12, 2014 10:49 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:...the people with low incomes must be able to vote so they can have a say in the removal of services that may be needed by the poor.
Our Conservatives are trying to prevent that with their Unfair Elections Act.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/terezia-fa ... 43037.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: JREF forum not allowing any new signups?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Jul 13, 2014 2:30 am

Gord wrote: Our Conservatives are trying to prevent that with their Unfair Elections Act.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/terezia-fa ... 43037.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Get out the vote" gets silenced. Elections Canada can't engage in activities encouraging people to vote, instead giving that power to political parties."

Absolutely ridiculous. Down here, the A.E.C. ( Australian Electoral Commission) independently promotes voting and warns of fines for those who don't vote. They take the poll boxes to pensioner homes, hospitals for those invalids who still wish to lodge a paper vote. They advertise and organise absentee votes in Australian consulates so Aussie tourists can still lodge paper votes.

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Re: JREF forum not allowing any new signups?

Post by Gord » Mon Jul 14, 2014 7:00 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Gord wrote: Our Conservatives are trying to prevent that with their Unfair Elections Act.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/terezia-fa ... 43037.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Get out the vote" gets silenced. Elections Canada can't engage in activities encouraging people to vote, instead giving that power to political parties."

Absolutely ridiculous. Down here, the A.E.C. ( Australian Electoral Commission) independently promotes voting and warns of fines for those who don't vote. They take the poll boxes to pensioner homes, hospitals for those invalids who still wish to lodge a paper vote. They advertise and organise absentee votes in Australian consulates so Aussie tourists can still lodge paper votes.
Elections Canada also cannot look into accusations of voter fraud anymore. The Conservatives were caught last election engaged in voter fraud, using robocalls to tell members of other parties that their voting locations had been changed when they hadn't, causing an unknown number of non-Conservatives to miss their chance to vote. Instead of dealing with actual corruption (their own), they have accused others of voting fraud (without evidence -- in fact, evidence to the contrary) and moved to prevent such imaginary voting fraud from ever happening again, even though it never has yet. And since Elections Canada can no longer investigate to discover the lack of voter fraud, the Conservatives are now free to lie about it relentlessly while claiming they have prevented it.
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Re: JREF forum not allowing any new signups?

Post by zeuzzz » Sat Jul 26, 2014 7:37 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
zeuzzz wrote:The internet and cyberspace in the next few decades is totally going to revolutionize the way we not only vote but how our very democracies and political structures/institutions function.
39% of the world's population have access to the internet. Are you proposing we disenfranchise 61% of the world's voters?
The politicians already disenfranchise about that % of poor working class voters by always making voting day between x-hours on a weekday when they will likely be working a ten hour a day job. What this results in a massive skew in the votes from the population, you get far more pensioners voting than young or middle aged people, and also far more rich people who don't have to work silly hours, to merely survive, voting. People can share access to the internet, just because you do not have the internet does not mean you can not use someone else's.
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Re: JREF forum not allowing any new signups?

Post by kennyc » Sat Jul 26, 2014 9:44 pm

What {!#%@} is this?
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Re: JREF forum not allowing any new signups?

Post by zeuzzz » Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:07 pm

kennyc wrote:What {!#%@} is this?
You just discovered mirrors?
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Re: JREF forum not allowing any new signups?

Post by zeuzzz » Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:10 pm

Kenny FFS just take me off ignore and stop being so awkward in all my threads all the time.
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Re: JREF forum not allowing any new signups?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Jul 27, 2014 12:29 am

zeuzzz wrote:The politicians already disenfranchise about that % of poor working class voters by always making voting day between x-hours on a weekday when they will likely be working a ten hour a day job.


That's America. Australians vote on Saturdays. Most of Europe votes on Sundays. The UK is converting from voting on Thursday to Sundays to bring them in line with the European parliament poll day. I think that the USA should move the day or grant a half day public holiday for those who bring in evidence that they have voted.

Please also remember that voting is a compulsory social duty in Australia, Everyone over 18 votes or gets fined.


"After each election, the AEC will send a letter to all apparent non-voters requesting that they either provide a valid and sufficient reason for failing to vote or pay a $20 penalty. If, within the time period specified on the notice, you fail to reply, cannot provide a valid and sufficient reason or decline to pay the $20 penalty, then the matter may be referred to a court. If the matter is dealt with in court and you are found guilty, you may be fined up to $170 plus court costs and a criminal conviction may be recorded against you."

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Re: JREF forum not allowing any new signups?

Post by Pyrrho » Sun Jul 27, 2014 1:33 pm

We can vote by mail in some localities. Lately there have been efforts to restrict or curtail that practice.

We get the same or similar crop of candidates election after election. Votes mostly count for local tax levies. Government itself doesn't change no matter who ends up in office--they still have to deal with the same businesses and the same constituents and the same societal problems. The bureaucracy is too huge for any political party to change, short of a genuine revolution, and even then, the same old behaviors result.
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Re: JREF forum not allowing any new signups?

Post by kennyc » Sun Jul 27, 2014 1:57 pm

and unfortunately many don't bother to vote, particularly in local races and issues except in the presidential election years. :(

I kinda like the idea of being required to vote, but it would probably fly like a led zepplin.....even worse than Obamacare....
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Re: JREF forum not allowing any new signups?

Post by scrmbldggs » Sun Jul 27, 2014 5:21 pm

kennyc wrote:and unfortunately many don't bother to vote, particularly in local races and issues except in the presidential election years. :(

I kinda like the idea of being required to vote, but it would probably fly like a led zepplin.....even worse than Obamacare....
I kinda don't like the idea much. Being forced to doesn't sit well with me, but I'm also wondering how much easier it would be to influence those who don't care enough to be informed about issues and simply want it done and over with.
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Re: JREF forum not allowing any new signups?

Post by kennyc » Sun Jul 27, 2014 6:37 pm

Yep, cause currently those that don't care, don't vote, but on the other hand those that can be 'incited' to vote by inflammatory advertisements will vote etc. etc.....

I think the real answer is to somehow make/get everyone to feel empowered and to want to participate.
Of course given out current political system I don't see much hope for that.

Anyway is JREF allowing any signups yet? ;) :roll: :roll:
scrmbldggs wrote:
kennyc wrote:and unfortunately many don't bother to vote, particularly in local races and issues except in the presidential election years. :(

I kinda like the idea of being required to vote, but it would probably fly like a led zepplin.....even worse than Obamacare....
I kinda don't like the idea much. Being forced to doesn't sit well with me, but I'm also wondering how much easier it would be to influence those who don't care enough to be informed about issues and simply want it done and over with.
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Re: JREF forum not allowing any new signups?

Post by scrmbldggs » Sun Jul 27, 2014 6:59 pm

kennyc wrote:...fly like a led zepplin...
Maybe they need the promise of some Cashmore... :-P
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Re: JREF forum not allowing any new signups?

Post by zeuzzz » Sun Jul 27, 2014 9:04 pm

Personally I wouldn't vote at all. It just encourages them.
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Re: JREF forum not allowing any new signups?

Post by zeuzzz » Sun Jul 27, 2014 9:08 pm

And people would have to start asking why the hell hardly anyone voted, so at least some interesting questions might start to be asked about our current two party dictatorship type situation. I have absolutely no hope the Lamestream media would help address the actual issues, which is what the internet could help with. Somehow. Not sure how yet. All I know is I get far less biased reporting from youtube news channels nowadays than from any mainstream media platform.
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Compulsory voting

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Jul 28, 2014 1:19 am

scrmbldggs wrote: I kinda don't like the idea much. Being forced to doesn't sit well with me, but I'm also wondering how much easier it would be to influence those who don't care enough to be informed about issues and simply want it done and over with.
In the movie "Starship troopers", only those who join the military ( and risk getting their legs blown off ) are allowed to vote. It is a weird political movie disguised as a monster movie, because it opens on school room political debates about "earning" the right to vote. ( The movie is a very strange and comments on neo nazi behaviour to the extent of having the actor who play Doogie Howser becoming a hero, while wearing a full Gestapo uniform.)
starship-troopers.jpg
My "out of date" political view is that "everyone" is in a society that collectively must understand everyone's needs and therefore forcing everyone to vote, identifies everyone's needs. I agree that street ladies, alcoholics, prisoners and psych patients probably don't care but that's why we have the "donkey vote" to let the electoral commission identify what percentage of the population doesn't care. I think it's important for governments to get as many people to care about politics as possible. However, the history of the world suggests governments actually do otherwise.
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Re: Compulsory voting

Post by OlegTheBatty » Mon Jul 28, 2014 3:43 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote: I think it's important for governments to get as many people to care about politics as possible. However, the history of the world suggests governments actually do otherwise. [/color]
Apathy favors the incumbent.
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Re: Compulsory voting

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:12 am

OlegTheBatty wrote:Apathy favors the incumbent.
You are not the first person to observe that rule. "Agitprop" is the western word for Lenin's international revolutionary "Department of Agitation and Propaganda".

As I grow older, I realise that you can't "agitate" an educated population in any particular direction, as they will go in their own random personal choice directions anyway. My gut feeling is that "agitation" only works in basic political environments where the people's choice is restricted between "dictator or no dictator".

I also think that "agitation" does not always result in a radical change. It could be argued that Hitler's NSDAP "agitated" the population to entice non-voting conservative women to vote. They voted in Hitler, a man perceived as conservative.

Propaganda is a very "hit & miss" tool and not that useful anymore.

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Re: Compulsory voting

Post by zeuzzz » Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:25 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:Propaganda is a very "hit & miss" tool and not that useful anymore. [/color]
The internet triangulates around any propaganda pretty quickly nowadays.
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Re: Compulsory voting

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Jul 29, 2014 1:22 am

zeuzzz wrote:The internet triangulates around any propaganda pretty quickly nowadays.
You mean small news services copy other news services without checking the source. This is a problem for distributing propaganda because the government can only control the sources, ie AAP, Reuters, TASS and so on. Feeding "chickenfeed" propaganda into the general internet is like adding a single drop of champagne into a swimming pool sized cesspit. "Going viral" is a random event and unmanageable.

My partner now works in Public Relations. Her office gets excited about the internet. I suggested that they use physical "pole posters" for a client with a localised business need. None of them knew what "pole posters" are. I'm suggesting that older media methods are just as valid, yet young people know nothing about them. One day some spotty faced "tech whiz" will appear on the cover of Business Weekly as the person who invented "physical paper media visual aids to support an internet campaign that can be taped to a telegraph pole" ( Pole posters)

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Re: JREF forum not allowing any new signups?

Post by kennyc » Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:15 pm

How's JREF these days? Have they cut the zzz guy loose, is he running amok?

and what about the sea serpents?
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Re: JREF forum not allowing any new signups?

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:25 pm

kennyc wrote:How's JREF these days? Have they cut the zzz guy loose, is he running amok?

and what about the sea serpents?
We can archive this thread, JREF is no more.
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Re: JREF forum not allowing any new signups?

Post by kennyc » Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:33 pm

But it's been reincarnated, like the phoenix rebirthed!

I didn't have to reapply, I was automatically transferred.
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Re: JREF forum not allowing any new signups?

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:06 pm

kennyc wrote:But it's been reincarnated, like the phoenix rebirthed!

I didn't have to reapply, I was automatically transferred.
But it's already going its own way.

And banned people from JREF are still banned. Thankfully.
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Re: JREF forum not allowing any new signups?

Post by kennyc » Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:16 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
kennyc wrote:But it's been reincarnated, like the phoenix rebirthed!

I didn't have to reapply, I was automatically transferred.
But it's already going its own way.

And banned people from JREF are still banned. Thankfully.
Yes! Hopefully going forward!
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