Government support is essential to life and liberty

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by OutOfBreath » Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:30 pm

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:In spite of the bare fact provided by you which I quoted in bold, the Chinese currency still holds the portrait of Mao instead of your dear Deng. The ungrateful Chinese :roll:
Yeah. The greatness of a man is measured in whether he's depicted on the money. :roll: Lots of rolemodels in the autocracies of the world then. I could mention the advantages for the ruling party to hang onto the Mao-worship for propaganda purposes, but let it slide for now.

It's not even a contentious interpretation that Mao made huge messes with grandiose plans and ever-present "class warfare" towards one perceived inner enemy after another. His great plans pretty much all failed. The chinese economy started to recover, and starvation was reduced, when Deng came in with a pragmatic approach, rather then megalomaniac ideology. As he famously said: "It doesn't matter whether the cat is black or white as long as it catches mice". Politics is seldom fair. The rulers we learn about in history are often the conquest-driven bastards who built a ton of monuments to their own glory, rarely the great administrators. So Hitler, Mao and Stalin are names that'll stand from the 1900s, not because they were right or that they did good by their people. But for their wars and purges that shaped history.

But relax, having a socialist/communist sympathy in politics do not mean you have to praise megalomaniac autocrats who have abused the very term they professed to uphold. And neither must you praise other leaders either. Don't get so caught up in ideological theology to lose sight of why you profess to such ideals in the first place. The public welfare, doing good by the downtrodden of the world, supporting more redistribution of resources, enabling freedom for the great masses. These are the ideals. And have little or nothing to do with party purges, army purges, cultural revolutions or autocratic dictatorships.

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Dan
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Nov 03, 2011 9:46 pm

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote: I should be ever thankful to the great Churchill as well, who killed 5 million innocent Bengalis in 1943 by creating an artificial famine. After all, he seems to have broken the record of Hitler in this aspect.
Hang on Nabarun, I know you are educated and you know that there were three or four contributing factors to the Bengal famine.
1) Japanese invading forces cut off rice imports from Burma,
2) A cyclone hit the Bengal coast at harvest time,
3) England sent the food transport boats back to England as England was running out of food.
4) Jute & Indigo was replacing rice crops for commercial gain for rich Raj landowners before the famine.

Only point 4# justifies social interaction to remove class selfishness. If Vladimir Ulyanov was alive today, he would agree with me. You are reading Dr Madhusree Mukerjee's book, are you not?

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by bigtim » Thu Nov 03, 2011 10:48 pm

Nessie wrote:
bigtim wrote: So, let's get started, roll up our sleeves, and get to work.

First off -- definitions.

What does it mean to "destroy the peace of the world"? How is that measured and defined?
I would define destroy the peace of the world as taking part in war, other military interventions and support for existing wars, coups etc.

I would measure it by the number of wars etc a country has been involved in.

The USA definitely beats India on that one.
I can't accept that one. That means that Great Britain was "destroying the peace of the world" by participating in the battle of Britain. As were the French Partisans.

I think destroy is an action word. Therefore to destroy one must be the aggressor. The world is an aggregate measurement. So to destroy the peace of the world your military aggression must involve 51% of the planet.

I disagree with pacifism -- to me it's being a victim. By merely participating in a struggle does not make you bad, or evil, or wrong. It makes you a participant. The reason for that struggle may be noble and honorable or it may be vile and decrepit. I don't ascribe to the Christian notion of a "just" war. In fact I deny it. War and violence by they're very definition are brutal and destructive.

So, with these two refined definitions:
Destroyer = aggressor
"peace of the world" = 51%+ of the world involved

We have to start this at WW1 lest we eat up all the space on the interwebs with discussion of the atrocities mankind has perpetuated on his fellows since the beginning of written history.

WW1 -- aggressor the Central Powers
WW2 -- aggressor the Axis Powers

According to this definition there has not been a country that has been a "destroyer of the world's peace" since WW2.
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote: I should be ever thankful to the great Churchill as well, who killed 5 million innocent Bengalis in 1943 by creating an artificial famine. After all, he seems to have broken the record of Hitler in this aspect.
Hang on Nabarun, I know you are educated and you know that there were three or four contributing factors to the Bengal famine.
1) Japanese invading forces cut off rice imports from Burma,
2) A cyclone hit the Bengal coast at harvest time,
3) England sent the food transport boats back to England as England was running out of food.
4) Jute & Indigo was replacing rice crops for commercial gain for rich Raj landowners before the famine.

Only point 4# justifies social interaction to remove class selfishness. If Vladimir Ulyanov was alive today, he would agree with me. You are reading Dr Madhusree Mukerjee's book, are you not?
And, according to the definition, Japan was the aggressor in that one. To blame it on Churchill is ignorant.
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Flash » Fri Nov 04, 2011 12:44 am

OutOfBreath wrote:
It's not even a contentious interpretation that Mao made huge messes with grandiose plans and ever-present "class warfare" towards one perceived inner enemy after another. His great plans pretty much all failed. The chinese economy started to recover, and starvation was reduced, when Deng came in with a pragmatic approach, rather then megalomaniac ideology.
That's BS, there was no starvation in China during the later Mao years even during the cultural revolution which Mao has unleashed. There was starvation in China earlier but that's because they were attacked first by Japanese and then by Americans with their proxy puppet Chang Kai Shek. In addition, during the WWII the Americans were supporting various other warlords who brutalized and robbed China of it's resources. No wonder there was poverty and hunger in China.

Mao was a visionary and a great leader of the nation that needed one right at that pernicious time in it's history. His cultural revolution failed but his main master project the revival of China succeeded spectacularly. To denigrate him by comparing him to Stalin and Hitler is not only silly, it reveals the acute lack of the knowledge of history which, I might add is typical in America today.
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nabarun Ghoshal » Fri Nov 04, 2011 2:16 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote: I should be ever thankful to the great Churchill as well, who killed 5 million innocent Bengalis in 1943 by creating an artificial famine. After all, he seems to have broken the record of Hitler in this aspect.
Hang on Nabarun, I know you are educated and you know that there were three or four contributing factors to the Bengal famine.
1) Japanese invading forces cut off rice imports from Burma,
2) A cyclone hit the Bengal coast at harvest time,
3) England sent the food transport boats back to England as England was running out of food.
4) Jute & Indigo was replacing rice crops for commercial gain for rich Raj landowners before the famine.

Only point 4# justifies social interaction to remove class selfishness. If Vladimir Ulyanov was alive today, he would agree with me. You are reading Dr Madhusree Mukerjee's book, are you not?
No. I have not heard of her. I listened to my mother who was not very educated, but her home happened to be at the side of a road that led to the dumping ground of Calcutta. She told me that military trucks loaded with rice were led to the dumping ground while people starved. She had little knowledge of politics and she had no reason for lying to me. The tales from such people are the most reliable source of information as Sherlock Holmes had correctly said.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri Nov 04, 2011 5:22 am

Flash wrote:That's BS, there was no starvation in China during the later Mao years even during the cultural revolution which Mao has unleashed. There was starvation in China earlier but that's because they were attacked first by Japanese and then by Americans with their proxy puppet Chang Kai Shek. In addition, during the WWII the Americans were supporting various other warlords who brutalized and robbed China of it's resources.
That's not exactly true.

Great Chinese Famine (between 1958 and 1961)
According to government statistics, there were 15 million excess deaths in this period. Unofficial estimates vary, but scholars have estimated the number of famine victims to be between 20 and 43 million.....During the Great Leap Forward, farming was organized into communes and the cultivation of private plots forbidden. Iron and steel production was identified as a key requirement for economic advancement. Millions of peasants were ordered away from agricultural work to join the iron and steel production workforce.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The KMT were out of China by 1949. Mao had been in power for 9 years. You can't blame America or the KMT for the Great Leap Forward.

Even the Soviets were against the Great Leap Forward

In 1959, Premier Khrushchev met with US President Dwight Eisenhower (1953–61) to decrease Soviet–American tensions and with the Western world in the Cold War. Moreover, the USSR was astonished by the Great Leap Forward, had renounced aiding Chinese nuclear weapons development and refused to side with them in the Sino-Indian War (1962), This is somewhat reflected in the splitting of Indian communist parties into "marxist leninist" and "maoist" at the time.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri Nov 04, 2011 5:32 am

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote: I listened to my mother who was not very educated, but her home happened to be at the side of a road that led to the dumping ground of Calcutta. She told me that military trucks loaded with rice were led to the dumping ground while people starved.
Your mother was absolutely correct! "Critically, cashed-up, wartime, industrial, Calcutta could pay for rice and sucked food out of a starving, food-producing countryside"
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/science/ockham ... s19040.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Praise the heavens for our good mothers!

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by OutOfBreath » Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:41 am

Flash wrote:OutOfBreath wrote:
It's not even a contentious interpretation that Mao made huge messes with grandiose plans and ever-present "class warfare" towards one perceived inner enemy after another. His great plans pretty much all failed. The chinese economy started to recover, and starvation was reduced, when Deng came in with a pragmatic approach, rather then megalomaniac ideology.
That's BS, there was no starvation in China during the later Mao years even during the cultural revolution which Mao has unleashed. There was starvation in China earlier but that's because they were attacked first by Japanese and then by Americans with their proxy puppet Chang Kai Shek. In addition, during the WWII the Americans were supporting various other warlords who brutalized and robbed China of it's resources. No wonder there was poverty and hunger in China.

Mao was a visionary and a great leader of the nation that needed one right at that pernicious time in it's history. His cultural revolution failed but his main master project the revival of China succeeded spectacularly. To denigrate him by comparing him to Stalin and Hitler is not only silly, it reveals the acute lack of the knowledge of history which, I might add is typical in America today.
OK, first off, I'm not american.

Seondly, here's an excerpt from the wikipedia entry on "the great leap forward" 1958-1961:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Great Leap ended in catastrophe, resulting in tens of millions of excess deaths.[2] Estimates of the death toll range from 16.5 to 46 million,[3][4][5] with estimates by demographic specialists ranging from 18 to 32.5 million.[6] Historian Frank Dikötter asserts that "coercion, terror, and systematic violence were the very foundation of the Great Leap Forward" and it "motivated one of the most deadly mass killings of human history."[7]

The years of the Great Leap Forward in fact saw economic regression, with 1958 through 1961 being the only years between 1953 and 1983 in which China's economy saw negative growth. Political economist Dwight Perkins argues, "enormous amounts of investment produced only modest increases in production or none at all. … In short, the Great Leap was a very expensive disaster."[8]

In subsequent conferences in 1960 and 1962, the negative effects of the Great Leap Forward were studied by the CPC, and Mao was criticized in the party conferences. Moderate Party members like Liu Shaoqi and Deng Xiaoping rose to power, and Mao was marginalized within the party, leading him to initiate the Cultural Revolution in 1966.
As for the cultural revolution:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_revolution" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Cultural Revolution damaged the country on a great scale economically and socially. Millions of people were persecuted in the violent factional struggles that ensued across the country, and suffered a wide range of abuses including torture, rape, imprisonment, sustained harassment, and seizure of property. A large segment of the population was forcibly displaced, most notably the transfer of urban youth to rural regions during the Down to the Countryside Movement. Historical relics and artifacts were destroyed. Cultural and religious sites were ransacked.

Mao officially declared the Cultural Revolution to have ended in 1969, but its active phase lasted until the death of Lin Biao in 1971. The political instability between 1971 and the arrest of the Gang of Four in 1976 are now also widely regarded as part of the Revolution. After Mao's death in 1976, forces within the Party that opposed the Cultural Revolution, led by Deng Xiaoping, gained prominence. Most of the Maoist reforms associated with the Cultural Revolution were abandoned by 1978. The Cultural Revolution has been treated officially as a negative phenomenon ever since; in 1981, the Party assigned chief responsibility to Mao, but also laid significant blame on Lin Biao and the Gang of Four for causing its worst excesses.
I also strongly suggest reading this autobiographical book:
http://www.amazon.com/Wild-Swans-Three- ... 317&sr=1-1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Being a lefty, doesn't mean you have to defend dictators. Recognize them for what they are, and proceed towards the worthy goals instead. Mao was not a nice man, and his ideas killed millions. Even his party, that still lives on that aura of authority criticizes him tepidly these days

Peace
Dan
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nabarun Ghoshal » Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:54 am

Revisionists often call themselves "Lefty". However, it often amuses me to think how correct Stalin and Mao were in their stand that they have made all reactionaries of the world their fierce enemies. The blow given by them is the hardest ever the Capitalists and their lackeys had ever have. The formidable Hitler also was cowed down. The capitalist-imperialist camp cannot find a reply to the political literature put forward by these two leaders, which exposed them like never before. That's why they so often tarnish their image by portraying them as monsters while those who dropped atom bombs and napalm bombs and used Agent Orange are either welcomed as angels or simply ignored as innocent children playing with some fireworks.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by OutOfBreath » Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:13 am

It's all a team sport, isn't it? And one should support all people that one can tie to one's own side no matter what.

Sure, the US, UK etc also have done bad things throughout history. Especially in WW2 where literally all hell broke loose from all parties involved. And we've had colonial periods europeans shouldn't be proud of (and we aren't generally).

But, it's one thing to arguably go a step too far in a direct armed conflict. It's another altogether to inflict terror regimes on one's own population in "peace time" as Stalin, Mao and Hitler did. You don't have to support mao or stalin just because you have lefty politics. They were murderous bastards whose example set is merely how one never should go about societal changes.

Mao was first and foremost the ruler who first relied on "I am the party", and when the party turned against him, reached out to the youths to have them terrorize their parents and return power to himself. He only looked for loyalty to his own person, and true chinese communists were displaced, harassed, arrested etc if they held communist idelas higher than the regard for the leader.

Stalin was a paranoid fellow who started his reign by murdering all his officers, and continued to keep his country in line by brutal oppression of any opposition. He won the war with Hitler, and continued to kill enemies afterwards, and deporting to Siberia any voice of opposition.

I can't for the life of me see why these man should be revered. Whatever they supposedly wrote, they certainly didn't live by it.

And this is not an endorsement of other leaders, it's just making the point that these 2 leaders certainly weren't leaders I'd want to have in my own country. Authoritarian dictatorships (whether arguably of the proletariat or not) are not a good way to go, and usually don't offer much of a living other than ensuring equal destitution for the people outside the ruling circles.

Peace
Dan
What is perceived as real becomes real in its consequences.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nabarun Ghoshal » Fri Nov 04, 2011 10:59 am

OutOfBreath wrote:It's all a team sport, isn't it? And one should support all people that one can tie to one's own side no matter what.

Sure, the US, UK etc also have done bad things throughout history. Especially in WW2 where literally all hell broke loose from all parties involved. And we've had colonial periods europeans shouldn't be proud of (and we aren't generally).

But, it's one thing to arguably go a step too far in a direct armed conflict. It's another altogether to inflict terror regimes on one's own population in "peace time" as Stalin, Mao and Hitler did. You don't have to support mao or stalin just because you have lefty politics. They were murderous bastards whose example set is merely how one never should go about societal changes.

Mao was first and foremost the ruler who first relied on "I am the party", and when the party turned against him, reached out to the youths to have them terrorize their parents and return power to himself. He only looked for loyalty to his own person, and true chinese communists were displaced, harassed, arrested etc if they held communist idelas higher than the regard for the leader.

Stalin was a paranoid fellow who started his reign by murdering all his officers, and continued to keep his country in line by brutal oppression of any opposition. He won the war with Hitler, and continued to kill enemies afterwards, and deporting to Siberia any voice of opposition.

I can't for the life of me see why these man should be revered. Whatever they supposedly wrote, they certainly didn't live by it.

And this is not an endorsement of other leaders, it's just making the point that these 2 leaders certainly weren't leaders I'd want to have in my own country. Authoritarian dictatorships (whether arguably of the proletariat or not) are not a good way to go, and usually don't offer much of a living other than ensuring equal destitution for the people outside the ruling circles.

Peace
Dan
I'm afraid you are not doing justice with the message of peace you preach. You are becoming extremely excited.The more you become excited, the more you lose reasons. First of all, judge the source of news you had about these great leaders. They are all from capitalist press or from the defectors who fled their countries to make money for themselves or to save themselves from the wrath of people they had wronged earlier. The best way to judge one person is to read his own writings because however clever a man can be, he cannot hide his politics. It is revealed in his writings in some form or other.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by OutOfBreath » Fri Nov 04, 2011 12:07 pm

I beg to differ. To know what a person is like, you have to see what his actions are. Anyone can write or say stuff that sounds reasonable in itself. It's why we have so many religions and ideologies at all. Only way to determine what's hogwash and what works, is the empirical record. You shouldn't take the politician's word for that he'll do something, you check what he does to achieve it. Mao's empirical record as a ruler isn't good.

And your remark about "capitalist media" negates the entire possibility of objective information. (Which I guess I should expect due to your comments in general) So, the only reliable information is what we hear through official chinese propaganda channels, Mao's own writings and your opinions? That's an extremely black/white position, and also relies heavily on good old conspiracy theory thinking that can never be refuted or verified. (The conspiracy is vague enough to include anything which counters the decided-upon viewpoint) You seem to have decided long ago that the western capitalists are the ones conspiring to destroy anything good, and hence anyone opposed to them is automatically right, and obviously just getting a dirt-treatment by the ruling capitalists. It's fine to be sceptical of what US et.al. does in the world. However, accepting what autocratic leaders and their regimes say at face value is extremely naive.

Don't be so afraid of driving off the right side off the road, that you end up far into the field on the left side, is all I'm saying. Oh, and no grand conspiracy is secretly ruling the world and controlling all media, but I know that those professing such beliefs can't be convinced otherwise, so I'm just getting it off my chest for the record.

Peace
Dan
What is perceived as real becomes real in its consequences.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nabarun Ghoshal » Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:29 pm

OutOfBreath wrote:I beg to differ. To know what a person is like, you have to see what his actions are. Anyone can write or say stuff that sounds reasonable in itself. It's why we have so many religions and ideologies at all. Only way to determine what's hogwash and what works, is the empirical record. You shouldn't take the politician's word for that he'll do something, you check what he does to achieve it. Mao's empirical record as a ruler isn't good.

And your remark about "capitalist media" negates the entire possibility of objective information. (Which I guess I should expect due to your comments in general) So, the only reliable information is what we hear through official chinese propaganda channels, Mao's own writings and your opinions? That's an extremely black/white position, and also relies heavily on good old conspiracy theory thinking that can never be refuted or verified. (The conspiracy is vague enough to include anything which counters the decided-upon viewpoint) You seem to have decided long ago that the western capitalists are the ones conspiring to destroy anything good, and hence anyone opposed to them is automatically right, and obviously just getting a dirt-treatment by the ruling capitalists. It's fine to be sceptical of what US et.al. does in the world. However, accepting what autocratic leaders and their regimes say at face value is extremely naive.

Don't be so afraid of driving off the right side off the road, that you end up far into the field on the left side, is all I'm saying. Oh, and no grand conspiracy is secretly ruling the world and controlling all media, but I know that those professing such beliefs can't be convinced otherwise, so I'm just getting it off my chest for the record.

Peace
Dan
If you are to believe in honest journalism, read "The Red Star Over China" by Edgar Snow. It's due to people like him, I have faith in the honesty, sincerity and integrity of American people and it's due to the enormous number conspiracies and treacheries against the world people done by the official American forces like the CIA and Pentagon, I express my mistrust on the rulers of that country.

Of course, what you have said about my notion about Capitalism is true, for we are the bearers of the burnt for more than two and a half centuries and who knows its actual face better than us?

Mao Tsetung does not need certificates from persons like you. He has got it from Dr. Norman Bethune, Edgar Snow, Dr. Dwarkanath Kotnis etc. who lived the Chinese Revolution. It's probably my last post in his regard as I don't like to hear about him from external sources. He, along with Ho Chi Min, will ever remain the pride of Asia for having taught Capitalism a lesson.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by OutOfBreath » Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:58 pm

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:If you are to believe in honest journalism, read "The Red Star Over China" by Edgar Snow. It's due to people like him, I have faith in the honesty, sincerity and integrity of American people and it's due to the enormous number conspiracies and treacheries against the world people done by the official American forces like the CIA and Pentagon, I express my mistrust on the rulers of that country.
As far as I can tell, that book treats only the Chinese communists before they came to power through the civil war. What matters is what happened after they gained power in the 50s onwards.
Of course, what you have said about my notion about Capitalism is true, for we are the bearers of the burnt for more than two and a half centuries and who knows its actual face better than us?
India bore the brunt of colonialism for two and a half centuries. That's not the same as capitalism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonialism" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Mao Tsetung does not need certificates from persons like you. He has got it from Dr. Norman Bethune, Edgar Snow, Dr. Dwarkanath Kotnis etc. who lived the Chinese Revolution. It's probably my last post in his regard as I don't like to hear about him from external sources. He, along with Ho Chi Min, will ever remain the pride of Asia for having taught Capitalism a lesson.
No, he had an entire cult to his own personality which he used to trigger the atrocious cultural revolution. He had absolute power over a quarter of the population of the earth, and used it.

I note that none of those you mention sound much chinese. The case of Snow is interesting, since he went from investigative journalist to fullblown antifascist activist during WW2 and thus a supporter for all forces opposed. He was in China in the 30s, yes, and the book he wrote then may be good enough. However, when he later returned, he seemed to take Mao's word for there not being any trouble in China and no problems like famine. Seems his objecitivty got lost somewhere along the way.

If you want your idols, go along reading their self-congratulatory works, or the works of foreign apologists that were only shown the good sides. But it's bad skepticism, and poor research. The truth is sadly often that "great leaders" no matter what ideology, aren't much to idolize. And if there seems to be no opposition towards them and they enjoy universal acclaim in their own country, it's most often because they strike down with furious anger all opposing voices.

Colonialsim was ghastly, but that doesn't whitewash any leader who can be said to have opposed it.

Peace
Dan
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Nov 05, 2011 11:35 pm

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote: Revisionists often call themselves "Lefty".
Apart from the right wing revisionists such as holocaust deniers and neoconservatives
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:However, it often amuses me to think how correct Stalin and Mao were in their stand that they have made all reactionaries of the world their fierce enemies.
Lenin reintroduced a mild form of commonsense capitalist economics with his New Economic Policy in 1922. Lenin's concern was for the betterment of all people, across borders and not fixed ideology. Lenin warned against Stalin. Stalin killed Trotsky who promoted international socialism in his "socialism in one country first" policy. It was Stalin who placated reactionaries of the world. Stalin ended an international debate that would have would have softened. International social equity and the breaking of international borders through pragmatic economic trade has come from moderate capitalism which was hindered by Stalin. In an alternative world Lenin would be comfortable debating at a G20 conference arguing on the points rather than ideology.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism_in_One_Country" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Economic_Policy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote: The blow given by them is the hardest ever the Capitalists and their lackeys had ever have.
The trade union movement did more and we still have trade union movements. The individual, in the form of former 19th century exploited workers broke the back of oppression through their demand for goods & quality of living. Capitalist economic efficiency gave them their goals through consent by all classes and now class structure itself has almost fallen away as a legacy of history.
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote: The capitalist-imperialist camp cannot find a reply to the political literature put forward by these two leaders, which exposed them like never before. That's why they so often tarnish their image by portraying them as monsters
Stalin was a monster, his only saving grace was his unique need to save Russian against fascism. He should have been voted out after the war....Lenin was voted in...Stalin ended voting.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nabarun Ghoshal » Sun Nov 06, 2011 12:06 am

OutOfBreath wrote:
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:If you are to believe in honest journalism, read "The Red Star Over China" by Edgar Snow. It's due to people like him, I have faith in the honesty, sincerity and integrity of American people and it's due to the enormous number conspiracies and treacheries against the world people done by the official American forces like the CIA and Pentagon, I express my mistrust on the rulers of that country.
As far as I can tell, that book treats only the Chinese communists before they came to power through the civil war. What matters is what happened after they gained power in the 50s onwards.
Read the book first.

Of course, what you have said about my notion about Capitalism is true, for we are the bearers of the burnt for more than two and a half centuries and who knows its actual face better than us?

India bore the brunt of colonialism for two and a half centuries. That's not the same as capitalism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonialism" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Now I know your knowledge about capitalism and Imperialism as a "Lefty".

Read Lenin's "Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism" and not the Wikipedia.
Mao Tsetung does not need certificates from persons like you. He has got it from Dr. Norman Bethune, Edgar Snow, Dr. Dwarkanath Kotnis etc. who lived the Chinese Revolution. It's probably my last post in his regard as I don't like to hear about him from external sources. He, along with Ho Chi Min, will ever remain the pride of Asia for having taught Capitalism a lesson.

No, he had an entire cult to his own personality which he used to trigger the atrocious cultural revolution. He had absolute power over a quarter of the population of the earth, and used it.

I note that none of those you mention sound much chinese. The case of Snow is interesting, since he went from investigative journalist to fullblown antifascist activist during WW2 and thus a supporter for all forces opposed. He was in China in the 30s, yes, and the book he wrote then may be good enough. However, when he later returned, he seemed to take Mao's word for there not being any trouble in China and no problems like famine. Seems his objecitivty got lost somewhere along the way.
Read about Snow at least in Wikipedia. At the end of the article, you will find how the defectors and the Capitalist media purposefully tarnish the image of Mao to confuse people like you.

You haven't heard of Dr. Norman Bethune? Sorry, I entered a discussion with you on this matter. Let's now chat on some other subject. How much did you like the movie "Thor"?

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nabarun Ghoshal » Sun Nov 06, 2011 12:28 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:Stalin was a monster, his only saving grace was his unique need to save Russian against fascism. He should have been voted out after the war....Lenin was voted in...Stalin ended voting. [/color]
You may thank the renegade Khrushchev and his followers who killed Stalin and later planned a worldwide armed aggression in which they ultimately failed. It can be guessed what sort of people Comrade Stalin had to deal with at home. This thing one should bear in mind before stamping him as a "Monster" in tune with the capitalist media.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Nov 06, 2011 12:39 am

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote: You may thank the renegade Khrushchev and his followers who killed Stalin
He was 75, already had a stroke and died of old age.
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote: It can be guessed what sort of people Comrade Stalin had to deal with at home.
He knocked a lot of them off, including officers, which why Germany was able to get to the gates of Moscow and Leningrad.
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:This thing one should bear in mind before stamping him as a "Monster" in tune with the capitalist media.
440hertz is the same correct pitch for "A" regardless if the Sex Pistols or Bach had used it before.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Austin Harper » Sun Nov 06, 2011 3:25 am

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:Read about Snow at least in Wikipedia. At the end of the article, you will find how the defectors and the Capitalist media purposefully tarnish the image of Mao to confuse people like you.
Again you disparage Wikipedia, then suggest people read it. Again you cite a website to support your claim when it does the opposite.
Wikipedia wrote:Snow's reporting from China in the 1930s was both praised as prescient and blamed for the rise of Mao's communism. His biographers present him as an important link between China and the United States, but in Jung Chang and Jon Halliday's controversial recent biography of Mao, Mao: The Unknown Story, Chang and Halliday refers to the "myths" supplied by Snow as Mao's "spokesman," implying that he lost his objectivity to such an extent that he presented a romanticized and partial view. Simon Leys does not think highly of Edgar Snow's Chinese. But, a more sympathetic writer concluded that what he did in the 1930s was "to describe the Chinese Communists before anyone else, and thus score a world-class scoop." Of his reporting in 1960, however, he says that Snow "contented himself with assurances from Zhou Enlai and Mao Zedong that while there was a food problem, it was being dealt with successfully," which was not true, and "had Snow still been the reporter he had been in the 1930s he would have discovered it." In Mao: A Reinterpretation, a work sympathetic to Mao, Prof. Lee Feigon criticizes Snow's account for its perceived inaccuracies, but at the same time praises Red Star for being "[the] seminal portrait of Mao" and relies on Snow's work as a critical reference throughout the book.
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Nov 06, 2011 3:56 am

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote: Read Lenin's "Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism" and not the Wikipedia.
Nabrun, Lenin's 1916, paper was specifically about the 1914-1918 war in which he modified Marxist economic evolutionary theory. Lenin further modified Marxist theory with the 1922 New Economic Policy which reintroduced capitalist markets for agricultural workers. You seem to be cherry picking Lenin's work to find "rules" rather than theory discussion points.
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote: At the end of the article, you will find how the defectors and the Capitalist media purposefully tarnish the image of Mao to confuse people like you.
It was the Soviets who first pulled apart Maoist doctrine. That why the union of all Soviets and PRC split in 1958.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nabarun Ghoshal » Sun Nov 06, 2011 3:59 am

Thank you Austin, for pasting exactly the portion of the article I wanted to show. You know (or perhaps, guess) why.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nabarun Ghoshal » Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:03 am

It seems that I have been outnumbered. It's time for me being voted out now. It's useless to go on putting arguments and counterarguments when we cannot convince each other.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:37 am

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:It seems that I have been outnumbered. It's time for me being voted out now. It's useless to go on putting arguments and counterarguments when we cannot convince each other.
It's not about outnumbering nor voting people out. I welcome your opinion as it makes me think about mine. However we can't give false complete authority to those historical leaders to whom we share some common concepts. Modern society is flexible and can take good ideas from any leader.

Just for Fun!
In the Marxist workers utopian society of Star Trek, where money no longer exists, where sexism, racism and prejudiced behaviour are all forgotten, where workers apply for jobs based on merit and starvation no longer exists.....well how did we get there? Would Karl Marx have watched Star Trek and said......"well that's exactly what I'm striving for!".

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nabarun Ghoshal » Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:10 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Just for Fun!
In the Marxist workers utopian society of Star Trek, where money no longer exists, where sexism, racism and prejudiced behaviour are all forgotten, where workers apply for jobs based on merit and starvation no longer exists.....well how did we get there? Would Karl Marx have watched Star Trek and said......"well that's exactly what I'm striving for!". [/color]
http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/wo ... /index.htm

However, Marxism is not fun. It is a science that is denied by the tormentors of people and welcomed by the people seeking liberation from them.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Nov 06, 2011 9:18 am

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote: http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/wo ... /index.htm
However, Marxism is not fun. It is a science that is denied by the tormentors of people and welcomed by the people seeking liberation from them.
Lighten up and be happy, Nabarun......Lenin also wrote about Dada, the art movement. Not everything about the Russian revolution was about class structure and economics....art and culture flowered as well (until trashed by Stalin) Any human can do two things at once.....

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by OutOfBreath » Sun Nov 06, 2011 9:57 am

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Now I know your knowledge about capitalism and Imperialism as a "Lefty".

Read Lenin's "Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism" and not the Wikipedia.
Disparage all you like. Colonialism does not equal capitalism no matter what Lenin wrote 80 years ago. Colonialism is all but gone from the world, while capitalism is alive and well.
Read about Snow at least in Wikipedia. At the end of the article, you will find how the defectors and the Capitalist media purposefully tarnish the image of Mao to confuse people like you.

You haven't heard of Dr. Norman Bethune? Sorry, I entered a discussion with you on this matter. Let's now chat on some other subject. How much did you like the movie "Thor"?
I read the wikipedia entry on Snow. And no, I'm not a communist acolyte and haven't read all the masters' works. If that makes you comfortable blowing off anything I have to say of anything, then it's on you. I feel you rely far too much on appeals to authority and have no interest discussing the subject, unless I think exactly the same as you and have read exactly the same things.

I review what I read critically, and do not trust anything written by authoritarian leaders. Heck, I don't trust anything written by any leader. You refer to Marxism as science. I have to ask what falsifiable hypothesis it relies on?

Fun though, that you can't be civil debating with a rather socalistically inclined person about this. We probably have nothing to talk about if all you got is appeals to authoritarian leaders and their books that are 50-80 yeras old. I prefer to attempt to understand society and how it works. New insights have become available since 1950, and the insights you refer to weren't flawless even when they were written.

But keep on :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: at my "ignorance" and lack of veneration for Mao and Stalin.

Peace
Dan
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Austin Harper » Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:35 pm

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:Thank you Austin, for pasting exactly the portion of the article I wanted to show. You know (or perhaps, guess) why.
:confused: Uhhh, not really. I don't see why you wanted me to quote this.
Wikipedia wrote:Chang and Halliday refers to the "myths" supplied by Snow as Mao's "spokesman," implying that he lost his objectivity to such an extent that he presented a romanticized and partial view. Simon Leys does not think highly of Edgar Snow's Chinese. ... Snow "contented himself with assurances from Zhou Enlai and Mao Zedong that while there was a food problem, it was being dealt with successfully," which was not true, and "had Snow still been the reporter he had been in the 1930s he would have discovered it." In Mao: A Reinterpretation, a work sympathetic to Mao, Prof. Lee Feigon criticizes Snow's account for its perceived inaccuracies
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nabarun Ghoshal » Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:33 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote: http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/wo ... /index.htm
However, Marxism is not fun. It is a science that is denied by the tormentors of people and welcomed by the people seeking liberation from them.
Lighten up and be happy, Nabarun......Lenin also wrote about Dada, the art movement. Not everything about the Russian revolution was about class structure and economics....art and culture flowered as well (until trashed by Stalin) Any human can do two things at once.....
Believe me, I am a happy person in my personal and family life. What gives me trouble is that the world is suffering even more than one and a half century after Engels discovered the truth of development of the society. But then, as Engels have said, it does not depend on our good or bad wish. It will develop according to the rule of nature, we can just play our role in the society in revolution and evolution that come in our way.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nabarun Ghoshal » Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:40 pm

OutOfBreath wrote:
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:

Fun though, that you can't be civil debating with a rather socalistically inclined person about this. We probably have nothing to talk about if all you got is appeals to authoritarian leaders and their books that are 50-80 yeras old. I prefer to attempt to understand society and how it works. New insights have become available since 1950, and the insights you refer to weren't flawless even when they were written.

But keep on :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: at my "ignorance" and lack of veneration for Mao and Stalin.

Peace
Dan
Dr. Norman Bethune with his "The Scalpel, The Sword" will live long after you or me die out of our insignificant existence. These persons and their works and service to the society is not restricted to space and time. We still read Newtons Laws of Motion, Darwin's theory of evolution, Faraday's Laws of Electricity, Maxwell's Equations, etc. etc., don't we?

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nabarun Ghoshal » Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:43 pm

Austin Harper wrote:
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:Thank you Austin, for pasting exactly the portion of the article I wanted to show. You know (or perhaps, guess) why.
:confused: Uhhh, not really. I don't see why you wanted me to quote this.


I am helpless. :(

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by OlegTheBatty » Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:46 pm

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:
OutOfBreath wrote:
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:

Fun though, that you can't be civil debating with a rather socalistically inclined person about this. We probably have nothing to talk about if all you got is appeals to authoritarian leaders and their books that are 50-80 yeras old. I prefer to attempt to understand society and how it works. New insights have become available since 1950, and the insights you refer to weren't flawless even when they were written.

But keep on :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: at my "ignorance" and lack of veneration for Mao and Stalin.

Peace
Dan
Dr. Norman Bethune with his "The Scalpel, The Sword" will live long after you or me die out of our insignificant existence. These persons and their works and service to the society is not restricted to space and time. We still read Newtons Laws of Motion, Darwin's theory of evolution, Faraday's Laws of Electricity, Maxwell's Equations, etc. etc., don't we?
Newton, Darwin, Faraday, Maxwell, etc. do not trigger your cognitive dissonance. Critical examination of Mao and/or Stalin do, so that you reject all such critical examination out of hand rather than take an honest look at it.
. . . with the satisfied air of a man who thinks he has an idea of his own because he has commented on the idea of another . . . - Alexandre Dumas 'The Count of Monte Cristo"

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nabarun Ghoshal » Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:58 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:

Dr. Norman Bethune with his "The Scalpel, The Sword" will live long after you or me die out of our insignificant existence. These persons and their works and service to the society is not restricted to space and time. We still read Newtons Laws of Motion, Darwin's theory of evolution, Faraday's Laws of Electricity, Maxwell's Equations, etc. etc., don't we?
Newton, Darwin, Faraday, Maxwell, etc. do not trigger your cognitive dissonance. Critical examination of Mao and/or Stalin do, so that you reject all such critical examination out of hand rather than take an honest look at it.
To be critical, we have to know about their life and work first. Hence, I suggested some honest persons like Dr. Norman Bethune, Edgar Snow, Dr. Dwarkanath Kotnis., so that you can learn about Mao. But those who are criticising me of avoiding studies, just are not only ignorant about these persons, but also reluctant about going through their works. Hence, I decide to discuss "Thor", "The Superman" and the like. (I've heard that the latter has intended to give up his U S citizenship of late, have you any news on this?)

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by OlegTheBatty » Sun Nov 06, 2011 7:16 pm

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:
OlegTheBatty wrote:
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:

Dr. Norman Bethune with his "The Scalpel, The Sword" will live long after you or me die out of our insignificant existence. These persons and their works and service to the society is not restricted to space and time. We still read Newtons Laws of Motion, Darwin's theory of evolution, Faraday's Laws of Electricity, Maxwell's Equations, etc. etc., don't we?
Newton, Darwin, Faraday, Maxwell, etc. do not trigger your cognitive dissonance. Critical examination of Mao and/or Stalin do, so that you reject all such critical examination out of hand rather than take an honest look at it.
To be critical, we have to know about their life and work first. Hence, I suggested some honest persons like Dr. Norman Bethune, Edgar Snow, Dr. Dwarkanath Kotnis., so that you can learn about Mao. But those who are criticising me of avoiding studies, just are not only ignorant about these persons, but also reluctant about going through their works. Hence, I decide to discuss "Thor", "The Superman" and the like. (I've heard that the latter has intended to give up his U S citizenship of late, have you any news on this?)
So, you will read apologists and idolizers, but no one else.
BTW, you have exactly zero information on what I have read or not read.
. . . with the satisfied air of a man who thinks he has an idea of his own because he has commented on the idea of another . . . - Alexandre Dumas 'The Count of Monte Cristo"

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by OutOfBreath » Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:19 pm

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote: Dr. Norman Bethune with his "The Scalpel, The Sword" will live long after you or me die out of our insignificant existence. These persons and their works and service to the society is not restricted to space and time. We still read Newtons Laws of Motion, Darwin's theory of evolution, Faraday's Laws of Electricity, Maxwell's Equations, etc. etc., don't we?
So, appeal to potential authority for posterity?

Note that I recognized all the other names but this Bethune.
Who once again is a communist from the 30s. Very possibly an admirable man from a quick glance on wikipedia.

Do you read anything more recent than the 1930s? Do you research at all how various self-titled communist regimes have fared since then? Are you aware that society and the order of the world today is very different from what it was in the 1930s?

Peace
Dan
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Austin Harper » Sun Nov 06, 2011 9:38 pm

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:
Austin Harper wrote:
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:Thank you Austin, for pasting exactly the portion of the article I wanted to show. You know (or perhaps, guess) why.
:confused: Uhhh, not really. I don't see why you wanted me to quote this.

I am helpless. :(
More like hopeless if you are unable to see that the quote you supposedly wanted me to share explicitly states how unreliable your cited author is.
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nabarun Ghoshal » Mon Nov 07, 2011 2:12 am

OutOfBreath wrote:
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote: Dr. Norman Bethune with his "The Scalpel, The Sword" will live long after you or me die out of our insignificant existence. These persons and their works and service to the society is not restricted to space and time. We still read Newtons Laws of Motion, Darwin's theory of evolution, Faraday's Laws of Electricity, Maxwell's Equations, etc. etc., don't we?
So, appeal to potential authority for posterity?


Note that I recognized all the other names but this Bethune.
Who once again is a communist from the 30s. Very possibly an admirable man from a quick glance on wikipedia.

Do you read anything more recent than the 1930s? Do you research at all how various self-titled communist regimes have fared since then? Are you aware that society and the order of the world today is very different from what it was in the 1930s?

Peace
Dan
No, I was born in the nineteenth century and hence, could not read anything after the death of Sherlock Holmes. I did not know I was dealing with a man wiser than Lenin. And let me now direct you to another "liar' named Anna Louis Strong:

http://www.marxists.org/reference/archi ... /index.htm

Read this and know how the good people from America lived through the socialist revolutions and were later blamed as liars by the capitalists and their lackeys. They were not armchair people like you and me. Read it, I urge to your honesty and goodness if you want to know what socialism means. Then dare to call yourself a "Lefty".

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nabarun Ghoshal » Mon Nov 07, 2011 2:15 am

OlegTheBatty wrote: BTW, you have exactly zero information on what I have read or not read.
Absolutely right. How could I ?

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by OutOfBreath » Mon Nov 07, 2011 9:17 am

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote: No, I was born in the nineteenth century and hence, could not read anything after the death of Sherlock Holmes. I did not know I was dealing with a man wiser than Lenin. And let me now direct you to another "liar' named Anna Louis Strong:

http://www.marxists.org/reference/archi ... /index.htm

Read this and know how the good people from America lived through the socialist revolutions and were later blamed as liars by the capitalists and their lackeys. They were not armchair people like you and me. Read it, I urge to your honesty and goodness if you want to know what socialism means. Then dare to call yourself a "Lefty".
I am very aware of the role of socialism throughout the 1900s, and have quite a good grasp on history of communism, the ideas promoted by various workers' groups at different times and places etc etc. I label myself somewhat of a socialist, although in the last few years I'm tending more towards liberal/social democrat (and thus a "class enemy" I suppose). I have read some of Marx' works, and the theories of several marxist inspired theoretics through my sociology studies. Note that one way Marx have been very wrong is that he failed to predict the creation of the large middle class of skilled workers. This class ensures that the employer can't switch out all his (presumed unskilled) workers if they demand payment. What is relevant of Marx is the materialist approach to history, and the highlighting of the conflict in society between haves and have nots. Apart from that general approach, he's been wrong about many things about how the labour market has evolved.

What I'm questioning is why all your references are to works written in the 30s, when the subject matter seem to be current events. The context then is different than it is now. A prominent development since that time is the increased democracy, generally improved conditions for workers and abolishment of outright slavery and colonialism. (Although it hasn't progressed as far everywhere of course) Socialist organizations have contributed towards this, but several socialist policies have been adopted and used by non-socialists worldwide.

Political tracts are relevant for their time, but rarely much use 100 years later, except for historical interest. At the time, the communist guerilla of China had a pretty just fight against imperial japanese, and a very stifling tradition-ridden social life. However, that conflict was 80 years ago, and they have been in charge of China for the last 50 years. China were struggling mightily under Mao. Some can be blamed on reconstruction after a civil war, some on blatant policy failures, and some on directly violent authoritarian ploys to shore up support for the all-powerful leader.

That their fight in the 30s was just, does not mean that their regime from the 50s onwards was. That there are grounds for sympathy with causes, and an understandable opposition to wealthy elites, does not make any dictator a better option.

I am fishing for reflections around these things, but so far I'm only getting "Hail the great leader", "capitalists are scum" (by which you seem to include all europeans and americans), and a rather singular focus on philosophical tracts from the 30s, when the theories espoused there have since been tried, and generally failed because any dictatorship regardless of ideology tend to be a very bad idea, and always end up focusing most on the dictator keeping his power.

Do you only read old communist literature, or do you occasionally read something from after, say, 1990?

Peace
Dan
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Austin Harper » Mon Nov 07, 2011 3:33 pm

OutOfBreath wrote:That their fight in the 30s was just, does not mean that their regime from the 50s onwards was. That there are grounds for sympathy with causes, and an understandable opposition to wealthy elites, does not make any dictator a better option. ... [A]ny dictatorship regardless of ideology tend to be a very bad idea, and always end up focusing most on the dictator keeping his power.
Well put. While communism and benevolent dictatorships are great in theory, they don't tend to work out so well in practice. The problem with benevolent dictatorships is, as John Dalberg-Acton said, "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." The problem with communism is that for a communist state to come into being, a transitional government is needed. They tend to be headed by benevolent dictators that fall to the previously mentioned problem.
Dum ratio nos ducet, valebimus et multa bene geremus.

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Nessie
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nessie » Mon Nov 07, 2011 3:50 pm

It is our inablity to take the good bits from capitalism, socialism and communism and reject the bad bits that gets me down.

I would make a very good benevolent dictator. :D
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