Government support is essential to life and liberty

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Nabarun Ghoshal
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nabarun Ghoshal » Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:29 pm

Austin Harper wrote:
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:it is insane to kill half a million Iraqis in the name of liberating them from Saddam's dictatorship

Where did you get that figure? Most of the numbers I have seen were ~100,000. Don't get me wrong, I still think that is abhorrent, I'm just wondering where you got 500,000.

Also, how do any of the things you just listed relate to the current discussion?

Do you? Then why did you question about the figure?

However, see the link and get the figures supplied by WHO and ORB Who are relatively free from the influence of the British and US governments..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War

Regarding your last question, I must say that Capitalism in its attempts to get out of its self contradictions that leads it to near extinction, resorts to wars. I simply furnished some examples.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nessie » Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:48 pm

Capitalist, Marxist, communist, socialism, monarchist, very few countries have never been to war. A quick search finds Switzerland as the only established major nation that has not been to war and it is capitalist.
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nabarun Ghoshal » Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:49 pm

bigtim wrote:
WTF??? This is now just insane.


nabarun Ghoshal wrote:Agreed. This is insane. It is insane to drop napalm bombs on innocent children, it is insane to burn cities with atom bombs, it is insane to destroy a country's crop by spraying Agent Orange, it is insane to kill half a million Iraqis in the name of liberating them from Saddam's dictatorship etc. etc. etc. Is there any guarantee that these perpetrators of death will not give war a try to get rid of their some trillion dollar debt?


bigtim wrote:No, your comments are insane.
Where are napalm bombs being dropped on innocent children by the US?
Where are cities being burned with atom bombs dropped by the US?
Wher is the US spraying agent orange?
What data do you have that the US killed 1/2 a million Iraqis?

Right now you're sounding like the guy on the street corner wearing a billboard that the end is near...


Where are napalm bombs being dropped on innocent children by the US?
Ans.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEPL7R8mXmE

Where are cities being burned with atom bombs dropped by the US?
Ans.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki

Wher is the US spraying agent orange?
Ans.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_Orange

What data do you have that the US killed 1/2 a million Iraqis?
Read the data of the WHO and ORB, the agencies that are relatively free from the influences of US and UK governments.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by bigtim » Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:51 pm

Vietnam and world war 2 is your justification for anything occurring today how? That's ridiculous.

As to your site the numbers are all over the place. To me that says no one knows.
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Austin Harper » Wed Oct 26, 2011 6:45 pm

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:
Austin Harper wrote:
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:it is insane to kill half a million Iraqis in the name of liberating them from Saddam's dictatorship

Where did you get that figure? Most of the numbers I have seen were ~100,000. Don't get me wrong, I still think that is abhorrent, I'm just wondering where you got 500,000.

Do you? Then why did you question about the figure?

However, see the link and get the figures supplied by WHO and ORB Who are relatively free from the influence of the British and US governments..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War

ARE YOU {!#%@} KIDDING ME? I ask you to supply data to support your claim and you then imply that I THINK 100,000 OR 500,000 DEATHS IS OK? And I seem to recall you telling me just a week ago
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:I do not depend on Wikipedia for my knowledge.

In any case, the WHO study you cited from the Wikipedia page says
Wikipedia wrote:The study surveyed 9,345 households across Iraq and estimated 151,000 deaths due to violence

The ORB study gives 1,033,000 deaths, but that is an order of magnitude larger than every other study on the page you cited. That seems unreasonable.
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nabarun Ghoshal » Thu Oct 27, 2011 12:31 am

Austin Harper wrote:ARE YOU {!#%@} KIDDING ME? I ask you to supply data to support your claim and you then imply that I THINK 100,000 OR 500,000 DEATHS IS OK? .


Either you are a lonely person who spend idle time using such sites to hurl abusive languages or you are a supporters of the perpetrators of death. Does it matter much whether the body count is 100000 or 1000000? It is pogrom all the same. Still you are quarreling on this point. I don't know what you meant by {!#%@} but that is certainly not a sober tongue. I don't find a taste in debating with you after you use such language.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nabarun Ghoshal » Thu Oct 27, 2011 12:49 am

bigtim wrote:Vietnam and world war 2 is your justification for anything occurring today how? That's ridiculous.

As to your site the numbers are all over the place. To me that says no one knows.

Mr. Bigtim, the ruling class in your country has been committing heinous war crimes for the last sixty years at different intervals. Be it Hiroshima or Indonesia or Vietnam or El Salvador or Chile or Afghanistan or Iraq or Cuba or Congo, there is not a single place where you and your infamous CIA have not created disturbance in human life in favour of your pet monsters in those countries. It's you who created Osama Bin Laden and it's you who nurtured Taliban in the ground of Pakistan to pull down President Najibullah of Afghanistan. One day, you all will have to stand in the court of the world people and face the trial. When one is at the peak of military power, one forgets that others also have brains and muscles. Wait for the day to come. Genghis Khans or Hitlers have not been forgiven by history. Nor will be Trumans or Bushes.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Austin Harper » Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:01 am

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:
Austin Harper wrote:ARE YOU {!#%@} KIDDING ME? I ask you to supply data to support your claim and you then imply that I THINK 100,000 OR 500,000 DEATHS IS OK? .


Either you are a lonely person who spend idle time using such sites to hurl abusive languages or you are a supporters of the perpetrators of death. Does it matter much whether the body count is 100000 or 1000000? It is pogrom all the same. Still you are quarreling on this point. I don't know what you meant by {!#%@} but that is certainly not a sober tongue. I don't find a taste in debating with you after you use such language.


Nabarun, I'm sure you are aware that "{!#%@}" is often used as an intensifier. I was trying to agree with you that either 100,000 or 500,000 deaths were both terrible. I was just asking you where you got your number. You then cited a source that didn't said 100,000 deaths. In no way was I advocating ANY deaths. Your insinuation that I was was ludicrous. Now you're calling me lonely for calling you out on your made up numbers? And I'm drunk because of it? I don't find taste in debating you either but if you keep spewing nonsense I'm going to point it out.
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nabarun Ghoshal » Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:14 am

Austin Harper wrote:
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:
Austin Harper wrote:ARE YOU {!#%@} KIDDING ME? I ask you to supply data to support your claim and you then imply that I THINK 100,000 OR 500,000 DEATHS IS OK? .


Either you are a lonely person who spend idle time using such sites to hurl abusive languages or you are a supporters of the perpetrators of death. Does it matter much whether the body count is 100000 or 1000000? It is pogrom all the same. Still you are quarreling on this point. I don't know what you meant by {!#%@} but that is certainly not a sober tongue. I don't find a taste in debating with you after you use such language.


Nabarun, I'm sure you are aware that "{!#%@}" is often used as an intensifier. I was trying to agree with you that either 100,000 or 500,000 deaths were both terrible. I was just asking you where you got your number. You then cited a source that didn't said 100,000 deaths. In no way was I advocating ANY deaths. Your insinuation that I was was ludicrous. Now you're calling me lonely for calling you out on your made up numbers? And I'm drunk because of it? I don't find taste in debating you either but if you keep spewing nonsense I'm going to point it out.


If that sign is just an intensifier, then I am sorry I misunderstood it. I didn't mean what you said in the sentence I emboldened.

I Simply want to say that the capitalists cause sufferings and death all over the world for the sake of maintaining their business, which is also not done successfully. In any place, you will not find Socialist states throwing cruise missiles or hurling atom or napalm bombs to other countries. There is not a single incident. It is the capitalists who have destroyed the welfare states the socialists had built because they caused shrinking of their "Market".

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Poodle » Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:46 am


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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Austin Harper » Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:59 am

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:
Austin Harper wrote:
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:Either you are a lonely person who spend idle time using such sites to hurl abusive languages or you are a supporters of the perpetrators of death. ... I don't know what you meant by {!#%@} but that is certainly not a sober tongue.

Now you're calling me lonely for calling you out on your made up numbers? And I'm drunk because of it?

If that sign is just an intensifier, then I am sorry I misunderstood it. I didn't mean what you said in the sentence I emboldened.

Please tell me, what did you mean? Because it certainly sounded like you were calling me "a lonely person" and "not...sober."
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nabarun Ghoshal » Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:01 am

Austin Harper wrote:Please tell me, what did you mean? Because it certainly sounded like you were calling me "a lonely person" and "not...sober."


That all because I didn't understand the meaning of that particular sign and I have said sorry for that.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by bigtim » Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:59 am

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:Mr. Bigtim, the ruling class in your country


You obviously have no understanding of our country. There is no such thing as a ruling class. It would be nice if you could actually provide sources to support your statemnets.


Nabarun Ghoshal wrote: has been committing heinous war crimes for the last sixty years at different intervals.


Evidence for this please. Heinous? War Crimes? You apparently don't understand what a war crime is. Can you tell me when US troops used mass rape to terrorize an ethnic group of women? Or when they went into refugee camps and slaughtered people? Or when they blew up school buses? Sorry, you can't.

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote: Be it Hiroshima


Not a war crime. Sorry, you are wrong.

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote: or Indonesia or Vietnam or El Salvador or Chile or Afghanistan or Iraq or Cuba or Congo, there is not a single place where you and your infamous CIA have not created disturbance in human life in favour of your pet monsters in those countries.


Hmm... we could discuss each of your claims on their individual merits if you would actually like to provide any source material and be detailed. But you aren't, haven't, and apparently can't. You have this mythos you seem to believe and you don't need any data to support it.

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote: It's you who created Osama Bin Laden and it's you who nurtured Taliban in the ground of Pakistan


Wrong, you obviously have zero understanding of them or the area and their history.


Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:One day, you all will have to stand in the court of the world people and face the trial. When one is at the peak of military power, one forgets that others also have brains and muscles. Wait for the day to come. Genghis Khans or Hitlers have not been forgiven by history. Nor will be Trumans or Bushes.


You have this fantasy, that is not real, and this little dream that the US is some evil monsters. If you are here you have to give support for any claims you make. If you have any interest in truth (and honestly I don't think you do -- just the fiction you believe) then you'd be willing to define your meaning and part out evidence support each aspect of it.

Again, I went through this nonsense with communists (most of which hadn't even bothered to read Das Kapital) when I was an undergrad. They could not support anything and yelling slogans and comments like you're spouting here was all they could do.
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nessie » Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:09 am

What the Americans on this forum are experiencing is just how many people(s) around the world hate and mistrust the USA.

The USA has been involved in numerous foreign interventions, excursions and wars since WWII. It has been by far the most war like nation in the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_o ... operations

The USA has repeatedly refused to sign up to the International Criminal Court, so exempting itself from having to justify many of its actions

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Sta ... inal_Court

and then the ultimate in hypocracy, Guantanamo Bay, a prison and system of 'justice' which the US would never tolerate of its own citizens by another country.

Then, the second war in Iraq, supposedly to stop WMDs based on dodgy research including a plagerised student's disertation. Not surprisingly no WMDs were found, but there is lots of oil. Yet North Korea, which definitely has WMDs, but no oil is not the subject of an invasion.

Finally, with your 'special relationship' and the UK, do not think all is rosey and nice here either. There is a lot of bitterness in the UK against the USA. You refused to assist the UK when the Falkland's were invaded, but we have still assisted with the Iraq wars and Afghanistan, which were not popular moves at all and you have Tony Blair and his spin machine hood winking the UK public to thank for that. The two world wars were also nice earners for the USA

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4757181.stm

with the UK still settling bills to the present day. I don't see us charging you for assistance with the Iraq wars or Afghanistan. If we behaved as you have, we should have entered the Iraq wars late, once much of the fighting had already been done and then sent you a huge bill for our help.

Sorry guys, but here I am closer to Nabarun and Americans need a reality check to open their eyes to how they have behaved to the rest of the world. As other countries overtake you in terms of power, you could find that you have to reap what you have sown.
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Tom Palven » Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:13 am

Nessie wrote:What the Americans on this forum are experiencing is just how many people(s) around the world hate and mistrust the USA.

The USA has been involved in numerous foreign interventions, excursions and wars since WWII. It has been by far the most war like nation in the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_o ... operations

The USA has repeatedly refused to sign up to the International Criminal Court, so exempting itself from having to justify many of its actions

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Sta ... inal_Court

and then the ultimate in hypocracy, Guantanamo Bay, a prison and system of 'justice' which the US would never tolerate of its own citizens by another country.

Then, the second war in Iraq, supposedly to stop WMDs based on dodgy research including a plagerised student's disertation. Not surprisingly no WMDs were found, but there is lots of oil. Yet North Korea, which definitely has WMDs, but no oil is not the subject of an invasion.

Finally, with your 'special relationship' and the UK, do not think all is rosey and nice here either. There is a lot of bitterness in the UK against the USA. You refused to assist the UK when the Falkland's were invaded, but we have still assisted with the Iraq wars and Afghanistan, which were not popular moves at all and you have Tony Blair and his spin machine hood winking the UK public to thank for that. The two world wars were also nice earners for the USA

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4757181.stm

with the UK still settling bills to the present day. I don't see us charging you for assistance with the Iraq wars or Afghanistan. If we behaved as you have, we should have entered the Iraq wars late, once much of the fighting had already been done and then sent you a huge bill for our help.

Sorry guys, but here I am closer to Nabarun and Americans need a reality check to open their eyes to how they have behaved to the rest of the world. As other countries overtake you in terms of power, you could find that you have to reap what you have sown.


Well, the US didn't assert the Monroe Doctrine, and just tell the Brits to go back across the ocean, nor did it assert the Kennedy Doctrine that the US would "go anywhere, fight any foe", and that other countries shouldn't, nor did it assert the Bush Doctrine, below:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgMWhrCzbdk
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Poodle » Thu Oct 27, 2011 12:53 pm

I have to disagree with Nessie on this one. There was no great reason for the US to enter WW2 early (short-sighted, yes, but that's with the benefit of hindsight). Tony Blair was instrumental in the WMD affair and is widely regarded as the person who pushed Bush into Iraq rather than the other way around. Afghanistan is an operation to combat the Taliban, probably the main driving force behind Al Qaida - a thorn in the sides of both the UK and the US for obvious reasons - and, although expensive in many terms, appears to have reduced AQ to a propaganda agency more than an active terrorist organisation. The US ( although they didn't really see what all the bother was about) actually did give the UK assistance in the Falklands conflict - the UK's intelligence gathering wasn't up to the job at the time.

There are Brits who hate Yanks and there are Yanks who hate Brits. On the whole, though, I think the relationship is mutually beneficial and easy.

The fact that most Yanks are nutters is irrelevant :lol:

Nabarun, mostly a very polite and understanding man, tends to go into rant mode when it comes to politics. I don't think his attitudes are those of the majority.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by OutOfBreath » Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:22 pm

Well, the UK is one thing with the special relationship and all, but a certain level of distrust of the US is widespread among Europeans. And as long as the US were fiddling around with "strike first" policies and spearheaded the travesty that was the justification for invading Iraq, some caution towards the US isn't unreasonable for non-US citizens. No one minded Saddam's demise, but Iraq was rather bullied through by the US (on very bad intelligence if I'm being nice), with scattered support from allies or wanna-be allies. I still remember the WTF feeling I was left with after Powell's infamous presentation at the UN.

I agree Nabarun lays it on thick, but that doesn't mean the exact opposite is necessarily the truth. The US have a dodgy history of intervention, particularly in Latin America.

It should be mentioned that several interventions are with broad UN support, like the ones in Kosovo and Libya. We don't mind those much. (some of us do, but they mind militaries in general) What we do mind is where it seems the US uses it's power and influence to bully smaller countries into submission to further own interests. Smaller countries thus are more wary of the big dog.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Austin Harper » Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:51 pm

Poodle wrote:There are Brits who hate Yanks and there are Yanks who hate Brits. On the whole, though, I think the relationship is mutually beneficial and easy.

The fact that most Yanks are nutters is irrelevant :lol:

Nabarun, mostly a very polite and understanding man, tends to go into rant mode when it comes to politics. I don't think his attitudes are those of the majority.

Are there really Americans who hate the British? I wouldn't be surprised since, as you say, we are mostly all nutters. ;) I'm just not aware of anyone who feels that way. Mostly Americans just don't like tea and don't understand why Eddie Izzard wears a dress.

Nabarun is mostly polite, but sometimes he can be quite rude when he thinks someone is disagreeing with him. Ref: his comments to me earlier in this thread.
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Austin Harper » Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:20 pm

Nessie wrote:What the Americans on this forum are experiencing is just how many people(s) around the world hate and mistrust the USA.
...
Americans need a reality check to open their eyes to how they have behaved to the rest of the world. As other countries overtake you in terms of power, you could find that you have to reap what you have sown.

This is us.
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Tom Palven » Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:35 pm

Poodle wrote:I have to disagree with Nessie on this one. There was no great reason for the US to enter WW2 early (short-sighted, yes, but that's with the benefit of hindsight). Tony Blair was instrumental in the WMD affair and is widely regarded as the person who pushed Bush into Iraq rather than the other way around. Afghanistan is an operation to combat the Taliban, probably the main driving force behind Al Qaida - a thorn in the sides of both the UK and the US for obvious reasons - and, although expensive in many terms, appears to have reduced AQ to a propaganda agency more than an active terrorist organisation. The US ( although they didn't really see what all the bother was about) actually did give the UK assistance in the Falklands conflict - the UK's intelligence gathering wasn't up to the job at the time.

There are Brits who hate Yanks and there are Yanks who hate Brits. On the whole, though, I think the relationship is mutually beneficial and easy.

The fact that most Yanks are nutters is irrelevant :lol:

Nabarun, mostly a very polite and understanding man, tends to go into rant mode when it comes to politics. I don't think his attitudes are those of the majority.


The Taliban was also a thorn in the side of the Russians when they were occupying Afghanistan. Here are some of the roots of anti-Western sentiment:

https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for- ... cle10.html
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by bigtim » Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:40 pm

Tom-Palven wrote:
Poodle wrote:I have to disagree with Nessie on this one. There was no great reason for the US to enter WW2 early (short-sighted, yes, but that's with the benefit of hindsight). Tony Blair was instrumental in the WMD affair and is widely regarded as the person who pushed Bush into Iraq rather than the other way around. Afghanistan is an operation to combat the Taliban, probably the main driving force behind Al Qaida - a thorn in the sides of both the UK and the US for obvious reasons - and, although expensive in many terms, appears to have reduced AQ to a propaganda agency more than an active terrorist organisation. The US ( although they didn't really see what all the bother was about) actually did give the UK assistance in the Falklands conflict - the UK's intelligence gathering wasn't up to the job at the time.

There are Brits who hate Yanks and there are Yanks who hate Brits. On the whole, though, I think the relationship is mutually beneficial and easy.

The fact that most Yanks are nutters is irrelevant :lol:

Nabarun, mostly a very polite and understanding man, tends to go into rant mode when it comes to politics. I don't think his attitudes are those of the majority.


The Taliban was also a thorn in the side of the Russians when they were occupying Afghanistan. Here are some of the roots of anti-Western sentiment:

https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for- ... cle10.html



I think that does more to fuel Iran's distrust of us than anything. The real reason for Islamists isn't the US -- it's the desire for the return of the Caliphate. Yeah, the US isn't liked, and I haven't approved of a lot of the US has done. But I don't buy into this "the US created this monster".

There are a lot of problems in the middlie east with how they perceive the US. For one, conspiracy theories abound and they are believed as if they are fact. The nutjobs we have here that help perpetuate this don't help. And, two, Islam itself has non muslim countries as lesser.

I think most folks here are Brit-o-philes and love anyone english

as for Nabarun -- I think the politeness is a ruse. If you challenge him he insults you.
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nessie » Thu Oct 27, 2011 6:43 pm

Tom-Palven wrote:
.......

Well, the US didn't assert the Monroe Doctrine, and just tell the Brits to go back across the ocean, nor did it assert the Kennedy Doctrine that the US would "go anywhere, fight any foe", and that other countries shouldn't, nor did it assert the Bush Doctrine, below:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgMWhrCzbdk


I do not see how the Monroe Doctrine appies to UK terrirtory off the cost of South America. I do not see how the Kennedy Doctrine applies and well Sarah Palin, I think she is made up and a conspiracy theory on legs as no one could vote for someone that stupid.
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Tom Palven » Thu Oct 27, 2011 6:51 pm

Nessie wrote:
Tom-Palven wrote:
.......

Well, the US didn't assert the Monroe Doctrine, and just tell the Brits to go back across the ocean, nor did it assert the Kennedy Doctrine that the US would "go anywhere, fight any foe", and that other countries shouldn't, nor did it assert the Bush Doctrine, below:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgMWhrCzbdk


I do not see how the Monroe Doctrine appies to UK terrirtory off the cost of South America. I do not see how the Kennedy Doctrine applies and well Sarah Palin, I think she is made up and a conspiracy theory on legs as no one could vote for someone that stupid.


The "Monroe Doctrine" essentially said that only the US could meddle in the affairs of countries in the Western Hemisphere, enabling dictators in Haiti, Nicaragua, and Cuba, for a tiny example, and the Falklands are in the Western Hemisphere.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monroe_Doctrine
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nessie » Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:45 pm

Poodle wrote:I have to disagree with Nessie on this one. There was no great reason for the US to enter WW2 early (short-sighted, yes, but that's with the benefit of hindsight). Tony Blair was instrumental in the WMD affair and is widely regarded as the person who pushed Bush into Iraq rather than the other way around. Afghanistan is an operation to combat the Taliban, probably the main driving force behind Al Qaida - a thorn in the sides of both the UK and the US for obvious reasons - and, although expensive in many terms, appears to have reduced AQ to a propaganda agency more than an active terrorist organisation. The US ( although they didn't really see what all the bother was about) actually did give the UK assistance in the Falklands conflict - the UK's intelligence gathering wasn't up to the job at the time.

There are Brits who hate Yanks and there are Yanks who hate Brits. On the whole, though, I think the relationship is mutually beneficial and easy.

The fact that most Yanks are nutters is irrelevant :lol:

Nabarun, mostly a very polite and understanding man, tends to go into rant mode when it comes to politics. I don't think his attitudes are those of the majority.


Bush vs Blair and who influenced who is highly debatable. I wish the UK was less inclinded to get involved in any war unless under the auspices of the UN. US asistance in the Falklands was absolutely minimal and I think UK help to the US should as a result of that be the same.

I agree that the US and UK do get on, on the whole, but I do think that many in the US do not realise that it is not a popular country and is even seriously hated. Which helps to explains Nabarun's attitude. (That explains, I do not condone it in any way).
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by bigtim » Thu Oct 27, 2011 9:42 pm

Nessie wrote:I agree that the US and UK do get on, on the whole, but I do think that many in the US do not realise that it is not a popular country and is even seriously hated. Which helps to explains Nabarun's attitude. (That explains, I do not condone it in any way).


I think most in the US know how the US is viewed abroad. I know folks who travel will tell folks they're Canadian. They get treated differently. Nabarun's attitude I completely understand. His entire rhetoric is like reliving my college days a few decades ago. I actually dated a woman who was a communist and the discussions with her and her group of friends was very interesting. I actually think she got a kick out of it which is why it lasted as long as it did...
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:10 pm

bigtim wrote:Hmm... we could discuss each of your claims on their individual merits
It's the only way to do it.

I don't blame all Germans for something some individuals did at a particular point in time. I don't blame the whole of India for some things individuals did at a particular point in time. I don't blame all Australians for something some individuals did at a particular point in time.

In all these countries there are lovely, charitable and good hearted people who did the right thing.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by bigtim » Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:13 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
bigtim wrote:Hmm... we could discuss each of your claims on their individual merits
It's the only way to do it.

I don't blame all Germans for something some individuals did at a particular point in time. I don't blame the whole of India for some things individuals did at a particular point in time. I don't blame all Australians for something some individuals did at a particular point in time.

In all these countries there are lovely, charitable and good hearted people who did the right thing.



He might as well be saying that the German Government is bad because the German Govermnet gassed Jews....
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by rickoshay85 » Sat Oct 29, 2011 7:05 pm

bigtim wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:
bigtim wrote:Hmm... we could discuss each of your claims on their individual merits
It's the only way to do it.

I don't blame all Germans for something some individuals did at a particular point in time. I don't blame the whole of India for some things individuals did at a particular point in time. I don't blame all Australians for something some individuals did at a particular point in time.

In all these countries there are lovely, charitable and good hearted people who did the right thing.



He might as well be saying that the German Government is bad because the German Govermnet gassed Jews....


Let's just say it was all in the past, along with all other forms of barbarism, and move on.
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nabarun Ghoshal » Sat Oct 29, 2011 8:45 pm

bigtim wrote:as for Nabarun -- I think the politeness is a ruse. If you challenge him he insults you.


I really don't dislike your smile under the mask. It's only you who can say which is real, the smile or the mask. If I have insulted you personally at any of my post, I beg an unconditional apology. Most of the Americans are also a lovable lot but your government is, in my view, a devil that has been continually disturbing the peace of the world people for several decades. It is not possible to furnish evidence of a crime every time, unless a camera of the Wikileaks is always present there.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Tom Palven » Sun Oct 30, 2011 10:08 am

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:
bigtim wrote:as for Nabarun -- I think the politeness is a ruse. If you challenge him he insults you.


I really don't dislike your smile under the mask. It's only you who can say which is real, the smile or the mask. If I have insulted you personally at any of my post, I beg an unconditional apology. Most of the Americans are also a lovable lot but your government is, in my view, a devil that has been continually disturbing the peace of the world people for several decades. It is not possible to furnish evidence of a crime every time, unless a camera of the Wikileaks is always present there.


I agree with you enitrely that the US is an Evil Empire with a huge souless military-industrial killing machine that wants to keep its profits flowing. However, as I've mentioned elsewhere, this part of the US is different than the international "robber barons," including American corporations, who want to invest their money in India (or in my state of Florida, for that matter). IMHO the "robber barons" create jobs and products and are actually the "good guys," as opposed to those in the the quasi-governmental military-industrial-political complex.
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nabarun Ghoshal » Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:39 am

Tom-Palven wrote:
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:
bigtim wrote:as for Nabarun -- I think the politeness is a ruse. If you challenge him he insults you.


I really don't dislike your smile under the mask. It's only you who can say which is real, the smile or the mask. If I have insulted you personally at any of my post, I beg an unconditional apology. Most of the Americans are also a lovable lot but your government is, in my view, a devil that has been continually disturbing the peace of the world people for several decades. It is not possible to furnish evidence of a crime every time, unless a camera of the Wikileaks is always present there.


I agree with you enitrely that the US is an Evil Empire with a huge souless military-industrial killing machine that wants to keep its profits flowing. However, as I've mentioned elsewhere, this part of the US is different than the international "robber barons," including American corporations, who want to invest their money in India (or in my state of Florida, for that matter). IMHO the "robber barons" create jobs and products and are actually the "good guys," as opposed to those in the the quasi-governmental military-industrial-political complex.


I have hardly anything against Steve Jobs or Bill Gates. But the problem is that most of the drainage of wealth from our country occurs in buying useless killing machines which we are supposed to use against Pakistan or China. The bogeyman of a war and religious fundamentalism are the two pseudo-threats that our politicians always hang on our head so that they can buy more of these machines, which earn them a good sum in the form of bribe. Had our wealth been properly utilised, we'd be self sufficient in food by this time and none of my countrymen would go to bed in empty stomach. But that would deprive our leaders from the bribe they get while importing food-grains and fertilisers. Hence, most of our people still don't have food, clothes, shelter, medicines and education even after 64 years of our so called independence. Far from any improvement of the condition as Lance Kennedy has optimistically predicted, the gap between the rich and the poor is widening day by day which is compelling more and more poor people to organise in the form of armed political bodies against this man-eating system.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by bigtim » Mon Oct 31, 2011 4:04 am

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:
Tom-Palven wrote:
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:
bigtim wrote:as for Nabarun -- I think the politeness is a ruse. If you challenge him he insults you.


I really don't dislike your smile under the mask. It's only you who can say which is real, the smile or the mask. If I have insulted you personally at any of my post, I beg an unconditional apology. Most of the Americans are also a lovable lot but your government is, in my view, a devil that has been continually disturbing the peace of the world people for several decades. It is not possible to furnish evidence of a crime every time, unless a camera of the Wikileaks is always present there.


I agree with you enitrely that the US is an Evil Empire with a huge souless military-industrial killing machine that wants to keep its profits flowing. However, as I've mentioned elsewhere, this part of the US is different than the international "robber barons," including American corporations, who want to invest their money in India (or in my state of Florida, for that matter). IMHO the "robber barons" create jobs and products and are actually the "good guys," as opposed to those in the the quasi-governmental military-industrial-political complex.


I have hardly anything against Steve Jobs or Bill Gates. But the problem is that most of the drainage of wealth from our country occurs in buying useless killing machines which we are supposed to use against Pakistan or China. The bogeyman of a war and religious fundamentalism are the two pseudo-threats that our politicians always hang on our head so that they can buy more of these machines, which earn them a good sum in the form of bribe. Had our wealth been properly utilised, we'd be self sufficient in food by this time and none of my countrymen would go to bed in empty stomach. But that would deprive our leaders from the bribe they get while importing food-grains and fertilisers. Hence, most of our people still don't have food, clothes, shelter, medicines and education even after 64 years of our so called independence. Far from any improvement of the condition as Lance Kennedy has optimistically predicted, the gap between the rich and the poor is widening day by day which is compelling more and more poor people to organise in the form of armed political bodies against this man-eating system.



1.2 billion cell phones vs a few hundred million guns sold.....
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by bigtim » Mon Oct 31, 2011 4:10 am

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:
bigtim wrote:as for Nabarun -- I think the politeness is a ruse. If you challenge him he insults you.


I really don't dislike your smile under the mask. It's only you who can say which is real, the smile or the mask. If I have insulted you personally at any of my post, I beg an unconditional apology. Most of the Americans are also a lovable lot but your government is, in my view, a devil that has been continually disturbing the peace of the world people for several decades. It is not possible to furnish evidence of a crime every time, unless a camera of the Wikileaks is always present there.


The comments you've made when others have said things you disagree with have been questionable om this regard.

I am tired of folks calling the US evil. Let's dig deeply into India and call it evil. Hell, let's do it with ALL countries....

It's a overused and tiresome rant.

Ancient norse have a saying. Say useful things or be silent. You quote the exact same communist nonsense I encountred decades ago. Speak in specifics and stop with the propoganda ranting.
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Tom Palven » Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:40 am

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:
Tom-Palven wrote:
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:
bigtim wrote:as for Nabarun -- I think the politeness is a ruse. If you challenge him he insults you.


I really don't dislike your smile under the mask. It's only you who can say which is real, the smile or the mask. If I have insulted you personally at any of my post, I beg an unconditional apology. Most of the Americans are also a lovable lot but your government is, in my view, a devil that has been continually disturbing the peace of the world people for several decades. It is not possible to furnish evidence of a crime every time, unless a camera of the Wikileaks is always present there.



I agree with you enitrely that the US is an Evil Empire with a huge souless military-industrial killing machine that wants to keep its profits flowing. However, as I've mentioned elsewhere, this part of the US is different than the international "robber barons," including American corporations, who want to invest their money in India (or in my state of Florida, for that matter). IMHO the "robber barons" create jobs and products and are actually the "good guys," as opposed to those in the the quasi-governmental military-industrial-political complex.


I have hardly anything against Steve Jobs or Bill Gates. But the problem is that most of the drainage of wealth from our country occurs in buying useless killing machines which we are supposed to use against Pakistan or China. The bogeyman of a war and religious fundamentalism are the two pseudo-threats that our politicians always hang on our head so that they can buy more of these machines, which earn them a good sum in the form of bribe. Had our wealth been properly utilised, we'd be self sufficient in food by this time and none of my countrymen would go to bed in empty stomach. But that would deprive our leaders from the bribe they get while importing food-grains and fertilisers. Hence, most of our people still don't have food, clothes, shelter, medicines and education even after 64 years of our so called independence. Far from any improvement of the condition as Lance Kennedy has optimistically predicted, the gap between the rich and the poor is widening day by day which is compelling more and more poor people to organise in the form of armed political bodies against this man-eating system.


I wish I had some fast answers for you. My only hope is that India can make a solid peace with Pakistan. Who benefits from an Afghan-Pakistan War, or an Afghani-Pakistani -Indian War? Only the US military-industrial-political complex.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nessie » Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:04 am

bigtim wrote:
.......

I am tired of folks calling the US evil. Let's dig deeply into India and call it evil. Hell, let's do it with ALL countries....

It's a overused and tiresome rant.

Ancient norse have a saying. Say useful things or be silent. You quote the exact same communist nonsense I encountred decades ago. Speak in specifics and stop with the propoganda ranting.



You do not need to dig very deep to find evil in India and communism. Think of the caste system and Russia under Stalin.
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by OutOfBreath » Mon Oct 31, 2011 12:49 pm

Tom-Palven wrote:Who benefits from an Afghan-Pakistan War, or an Afghani-Pakistani -Indian War? Only the US military-industrial-political complex.

Now now. Many Afghans, Pakistanis and Indians also stand to benefit from war. Either to fill their own pockets or for political power. The US will happily sell them whatever they need, though.

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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Tom Palven » Mon Oct 31, 2011 4:42 pm

OutOfBreath wrote:
Tom-Palven wrote:Who benefits from an Afghan-Pakistan War, or an Afghani-Pakistani -Indian War? Only the US military-industrial-political complex.

Now now. Many Afghans, Pakistanis and Indians also stand to benefit from war. Either to fill their own pockets or for political power. The US will happily sell them whatever they need, though.

Peace
Dan


Fair enough. I won't argue with that.
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Nessie » Mon Oct 31, 2011 5:15 pm

Tom-Palven wrote:
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:
Tom-Palven wrote:
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:
bigtim wrote:as for Nabarun -- I think the politeness is a ruse. If you challenge him he insults you.


I really don't dislike your smile under the mask. It's only you who can say which is real, the smile or the mask. If I have insulted you personally at any of my post, I beg an unconditional apology. Most of the Americans are also a lovable lot but your government is, in my view, a devil that has been continually disturbing the peace of the world people for several decades. It is not possible to furnish evidence of a crime every time, unless a camera of the Wikileaks is always present there.



I agree with you enitrely that the US is an Evil Empire with a huge souless military-industrial killing machine that wants to keep its profits flowing. However, as I've mentioned elsewhere, this part of the US is different than the international "robber barons," including American corporations, who want to invest their money in India (or in my state of Florida, for that matter). IMHO the "robber barons" create jobs and products and are actually the "good guys," as opposed to those in the the quasi-governmental military-industrial-political complex.


I have hardly anything against Steve Jobs or Bill Gates. But the problem is that most of the drainage of wealth from our country occurs in buying useless killing machines which we are supposed to use against Pakistan or China. The bogeyman of a war and religious fundamentalism are the two pseudo-threats that our politicians always hang on our head so that they can buy more of these machines, which earn them a good sum in the form of bribe. Had our wealth been properly utilised, we'd be self sufficient in food by this time and none of my countrymen would go to bed in empty stomach. But that would deprive our leaders from the bribe they get while importing food-grains and fertilisers. Hence, most of our people still don't have food, clothes, shelter, medicines and education even after 64 years of our so called independence. Far from any improvement of the condition as Lance Kennedy has optimistically predicted, the gap between the rich and the poor is widening day by day which is compelling more and more poor people to organise in the form of armed political bodies against this man-eating system.


I wish I had some fast answers for you. My only hope is that India can make a solid peace with Pakistan. Who benefits from an Afghan-Pakistan War, or an Afghani-Pakistani -Indian War? Only the US military-industrial-political complex.


And Afghan, Pakistani and India arms traders. Indeed Pakistan and Indian have military-industrial-politcial complexes, in fact most states do.
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by Tom Palven » Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:33 pm

True, true, but according to Wiki, the US is the world's largest arms exporter and India is the largest importer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_industry
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Re: Government support is essential to life and liberty

Post by rickoshay85 » Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:39 pm

bigtim wrote:
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:
bigtim wrote:as for Nabarun -- I think the politeness is a ruse. If you challenge him he insults you.


I really don't dislike your smile under the mask. It's only you who can say which is real, the smile or the mask. If I have insulted you personally at any of my post, I beg an unconditional apology. Most of the Americans are also a lovable lot but your government is, in my view, a devil that has been continually disturbing the peace of the world people for several decades. It is not possible to furnish evidence of a crime every time, unless a camera of the Wikileaks is always present there.


The comments you've made when others have said things you disagree with have been questionable om this regard.

I am tired of folks calling the US evil. Let's dig deeply into India and call it evil. Hell, let's do it with ALL countries....

It's a overused and tiresome rant.

Ancient norse have a saying. Say useful things or be silent. You quote the exact same communist nonsense I encountred decades ago. Speak in specifics and stop with the propoganda ranting.
What we think, or what we know, or what we believe is, in the end, of little consequence. The only consequence is WHAT WE DO. John Ruskin (1819 - 1900)