Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

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icesterftl
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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by icesterftl » Tue May 05, 2009 12:25 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
icesterftl wrote: 70 million vanished in result of Jewish invention called Communisms, invention by the three stooges called marks, engels and lenin".
lenin invented and perfected concentration camps.


How quaint. A complete idiot has joined us.

Karl Marx did not invent the concentration camp. Karl Mark toured english factories and wrote books in pubs and home in Germany in the 19th century. Lenin wasn't even in Russia when the revolution started and had to be smuggled into Russia by Germany. Lenin died within 8 years and did not set up concentration camps either. The first concentration camps are British and were established in the Boer war. The russian gulag system of the 50s was based on the 101 law introduced by the Czar50 years before communism.

[url]
Why are You (Jews) complaining that your own invention back fired in your face? icesterftl

I think this idiotic comment means "Jews should not complain because communist jews "invented" concentration camps". This is the most idiotic, stupid and baseless comment I have read for a long time. The communists were not jews. Communists did not invent concentration camps. The Nazi camps were a system of both labour and termination which was somewhat unique in history.

Are you a holocaust revisionist icesterftl?


I am an eye witness and I've spent 20 years in Jewish concentration camp called Poland.
Yes, after 1917 Lenin gave orders to create a first concentration camp at "Wyspy Sołowieckie"
and the first victims ware leaders of catholic religion.

http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/bcaplan/museum/his1g.htm


icesterftl

icesterftl
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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by icesterftl » Tue May 05, 2009 12:39 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
icesterftl wrote: 70 million vanished in result of Jewish invention called Communisms, invention by the three stooges called marks, engels and lenin".
lenin invented and perfected concentration camps.


How quaint. A complete idiot has joined us.

Karl Marx did not invent the concentration camp. Karl Mark toured english factories and wrote books in pubs and home in Germany in the 19th century. Lenin wasn't even in Russia when the revolution started and had to be smuggled into Russia by Germany. Lenin died within 8 years and did not set up concentration camps either. The first concentration camps are British and were established in the Boer war. The russian gulag system of the 50s was based on the 101 law introduced by the Czar50 years before communism.


Why are You (Jews) complaining that your own invention back fired in your face? icesterftl


I think this idiotic comment means "Jews should not complain because communist jews "invented" concentration camps". This is the most idiotic, stupid and baseless comment I have read for a long time. The communists were not jews. Communists did not invent concentration camps. The Nazi camps were a system of both labour and termination which was somewhat unique in history.

Are you a holocaust revisionist icesterftl?



Just one more link:

http://www.time.com/time/time100/leaders/profile/lenin.html

icesterftl

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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue May 05, 2009 12:59 am

icesterftl wrote: I am an eye witness and I've spent 20 years in Jewish concentration camp called Poland.


The communist Government fell in Poland in 1989, twenty years ago. I assume you lived in Poland between 1969 & 1989 and are talking about the catholic union movements like "Solidarity". Can you list the jewish trade unions in this period?

icesterftl wrote: Yes, after 1917 Lenin gave orders to create a first concentration camp at "Wyspy Sołowieckie" and the first victims ware leaders of catholic religion.


This is the Solovetsky Island camp that was established in 1921 in which were held polish, russian and eastern "White guards" who fought the red army in the Russian civil war. We call these prisoner of war camps.

However the russians did have pure political camps that were established in the same places that the early communists were exiled to, like Lenin and Stalin, by the Czar. You may not remember that after the Czar hanged Lenin's brother, Lenin was sent to exile.


http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/bcaplan/museum/his1g.htm
From then on the Cheka's executions never ceased. The exact number murdered is usually estimated at between 100,000 and 500,000, but the chaotic wartime conditions make the accounting especially difficult. But execution was not the Cheka's only tool; it also pioneered the development of the modern slave labor (or "concentration") camp. Inmates were generally frankly treated as government-owned slaves, and used for the most demanding sorts of work - such as digging arctic canals - while receiving pitifully small rations. The work camps are pre communist.
icesterftl[/quote]

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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by icesterftl » Tue May 05, 2009 2:04 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
icesterftl wrote: I am an eye witness and I've spent 20 years in Jewish concentration camp called Poland.


The communist Government fell in Poland in 1989, twenty years ago. I assume you lived in Poland between 1969 & 1989 and are talking about the catholic union movements like "Solidarity". Can you list the jewish trade unions in this period?

icesterftl wrote: Yes, after 1917 Lenin gave orders to create a first concentration camp at "Wyspy Sołowieckie" and the first victims ware leaders of catholic religion.


This is the Solovetsky Island camp that was established in 1921 in which were held polish, russian and eastern "White guards" who fought the red army in the Russian civil war. We call these prisoner of war camps.

However the russians did have pure political camps that were established in the same places that the early communists were exiled to, like Lenin and Stalin, by the Czar. You may not remember that after the Czar hanged Lenin's brother, Lenin was sent to exile.


http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/bcaplan/museum/his1g.htm
From then on the Cheka's executions never ceased. The exact number murdered is usually estimated at between 100,000 and 500,000, but the chaotic wartime conditions make the accounting especially difficult. But execution was not the Cheka's only tool; it also pioneered the development of the modern slave labor (or "concentration") camp. Inmates were generally frankly treated as government-owned slaves, and used for the most demanding sorts of work - such as digging arctic canals - while receiving pitifully small rations. The work camps are pre communist.
icesterftl
[/quote]

Lenin also gave orders to create concentration camps for
foreign citizens and to wage campaigns to discredit foreign diplomats. (In December
1990, Soviet party officials discussed the publication of some 3,000 of these documents;
the decision not to publish them being due to their embarrassing nature.26

In a telegram Lenin sent in August 1918 he
called for the establishment of a ‘concentration camp’ stating: ‘It is necessary to launch
merciless mass terror against kulaks, priests and White Guards; those about whom there
are doubts should be placed in a concentration camp outside a city…’

"Solidarity" I have nothing to do with.
1958-1978 and since 1945 as before the WWII Jews in Poland ware perpetuating the comunist virus and I still have the menthal and phisical scars.
PZPR was and is the Jewish trade union if you will.
Tere are more than 50% Jews in Polish Parlament.
Despite the Human Rights agrteement in 1993 the Jews in Poland still use the comunist law and constitution.
The former president Kwasnieski the son of the Jewish Hangman that sent to death Polish people had embezzled millions and stashed it away in Swiss banks.
Polish television stations continuously broadcast Jewish propaganda and Jewish exploits that empty the public pockets and brainwash the youth.
There is so much of Jewish fair play in Poland that documenting it would fill another set of Britanica.
But if You relay want to see some hard evidence it is best to visit Poland oneself.

icesterftl




icesterftl

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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue May 05, 2009 3:05 am

icesterftl wrote: Lenin also gave orders to create concentration camps for
foreign citizens and to wage campaigns to discredit foreign diplomats. (In December
1990, Soviet party officials discussed the publication of some 3,000 of these documents; the decision not to publish them being due to their embarrassing nature.26

In a telegram Lenin sent in August 1918 he called for the establishment of a ‘concentration camp’ stating: ‘It is necessary to launch merciless mass terror against kulaks, priests and White Guards; those about whom there are doubts should be placed in a concentration camp outside a city…’


You have answered your own question. "White guards" are foreign fighters and white Russians fighting against russia in the civil war. Poland declared war on Russia during this period. This why Stalin was not upset when he divided poland up between Germany and Russia in the early period of WWII. I'm not sure how many catholic priests were locked up simply because Russia is orthodox, not catholic and Stalin was an ex student-priest. ( This is possibly why Stalin had the KGB control the Orthodox as a controlling device, rather than disband them according to 19th century marxist theory). The "foreign diplomats" were indeed captured in White held areas during the civil war.

icesterftl wrote: "Solidarity" I have nothing to do with. 1958-1978 and since 1945 as before the WWII Jews in Poland ware perpetuating the communist virus and I still have the mental and physical scars. PZPR was and is the Jewish trade union if you will.


I think you will find it was the communists perpetuating the communist government. If it was an international jewish conspiracy there would not have been jewish organisations fighting communism in western media and Rothchilds would not have funded the "White Guard". Rothchilds lost enormous amounts of capital when Lenin refused to pay back the railways bonds.

icesterftl wrote: There are more than 50% Jews in Polish Parliament.


The evidence does not support a communist-jewish conspiracy in Poland. Communist Poland broke diplomatic relationships with Israel during the 1967 war. A state-sponsored "anti-Zionist" campaign resulted in the removal of Jews from the Polish United Worker's Party and from teaching positions in schools and universities from 1967 to 1971. 14,000 Jews left Poland and moved to Israel.

In 2006, Poland's Jewish population is estimated to be approximately 20,000. (The Germans eradicated most of the older jewish population) The entire population is 38million. Are you sure 50% of all members of Poland's parliament are jewish? Have you got a reference?

icesterftl wrote: The former president Kwasnieski the son of the Jewish Hangman that sent to death Polish people had embezzled millions and stashed it away in Swiss banks.


The "twins" were from a right wing party and not a communist party.

icesterftl wrote: Polish television stations continuously broadcast Jewish propaganda and Jewish exploits that empty the public pockets and brainwash the youth. There is so much of Jewish fair play in Poland that documenting it would fill another set of Britanica. But if You really want to see some hard evidence it is best to visit Poland oneself.


Poland is a very difficult country to study. Over a thousand years the entire country and its borders seem to have wandered across central europe. I do not know what "pro-jewish" adverts you are talking about but I feel that Poland has dignity for its dead and its jews suffered more than any other country in WWII at the hands of the Germans.

The number of Jews in Poland on September 1 1939 amounted to about 3,474,000 people. The postwar number was 180,000–240,000 Jews in Poland. 120,000 Polish jews left during the war. What happened to the rest? Well...they were killed for being jewish. Do you think this is a bad thing or a good thing?








icesterftl[/quote]

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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue May 05, 2009 3:25 am

icesterftl wrote: Despite the Human Rights agreement in 1993 the Jews in Poland still use the comunist law and constitution.


The Constitution of the Republic of Poland of 2 April 1997 is Poland's current constitution. It replaced the temporary amendments put into place in 1992 designed to reverse the effects of communism.

Now, I think you made up your "fact". That is unfair. This "holocaust denial" forum is extremely complex, argumentative and the last thing we need is someone making up facts. I suggest, that if you want include a fact in any posting that you need to be prepared to "back it up" with a internet reference.

icesterftl
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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by icesterftl » Tue May 05, 2009 10:47 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
icesterftl wrote: Despite the Human Rights agreement in 1993 the Jews in Poland still use the comunist law and constitution.


The Constitution of the Republic of Poland of 2 April 1997 is Poland's current constitution. It replaced the temporary amendments put into place in 1992 designed to reverse the effects of communism.

Now, I think you made up your "fact". That is unfair. This "holocaust denial" forum is extremely complex, argumentative and the last thing we need is someone making up facts. I suggest, that if you want include a fact in any posting that you need to be prepared to "back it up" with a internet reference.


Naturally,

what should be the fist chapter in the new Britanica set called "Jewish sense of fair play"
and appendix with internet references to facts?

So, let's start with small fish:

Art-B Jewish run con outfit swindled millions of dollars and stashed it away in Switzerland.

prepared to "back it up" with a internet reference...

http://fakty.interia.pl/kraj/prawo_i_bezprawie/news/byli-szefowie-art-b-poklocili-sie-o-kase,1016556

I do not want to bias this so may be you pick a subject next time, would you?

icesterftl

icesterftl
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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by icesterftl » Tue May 05, 2009 10:54 am

icesterftl wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:
icesterftl wrote: Despite the Human Rights agreement in 1993 the Jews in Poland still use the comunist law and constitution.


The Constitution of the Republic of Poland of 2 April 1997 is Poland's current constitution. It replaced the temporary amendments put into place in 1992 designed to reverse the effects of communism.

Now, I think you made up your "fact". That is unfair. This "holocaust denial" forum is extremely complex, argumentative and the last thing we need is someone making up facts. I suggest, that if you want include a fact in any posting that you need to be prepared to "back it up" with a internet reference.


Naturally,

what should be the fist chapter in the new Britanica set called "Jewish sense of fair play"
and appendix with internet references to facts?

So, let's start with small fish:

Art-B Jewish run con outfit swindled millions of dollars and stashed it away in Switzerland.

prepared to "back it up" with a internet reference...

http://fakty.interia.pl/kraj/prawo_i_bezprawie/news/byli-szefowie-art-b-poklocili-sie-o-kase,1016556

I do not want to bias this so may be you pick a subject next time, would you?

icesterftl


Sorry, that was in Polish.

Here again in English:
http://www.polishforums.com/boguslaw_bagsik_polish_scam_arist-4_26843_0.html

icesterftl

icesterftl
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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by icesterftl » Tue May 05, 2009 11:15 am

icesterftl wrote:
icesterftl wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:
icesterftl wrote: Despite the Human Rights agreement in 1993 the Jews in Poland still use the comunist law and constitution.


The Constitution of the Republic of Poland of 2 April 1997 is Poland's current constitution. It replaced the temporary amendments put into place in 1992 designed to reverse the effects of communism.

Now, I think you made up your "fact". That is unfair. This "holocaust denial" forum is extremely complex, argumentative and the last thing we need is someone making up facts. I suggest, that if you want include a fact in any posting that you need to be prepared to "back it up" with a internet reference.


Naturally,

what should be the fist chapter in the new Britanica set called "Jewish sense of fair play"
and appendix with internet references to facts?

So, let's start with small fish:

Art-B Jewish run con outfit swindled millions of dollars and stashed it away in Switzerland.

prepared to "back it up" with a internet reference...

http://fakty.interia.pl/kraj/prawo_i_bezprawie/news/byli-szefowie-art-b-poklocili-sie-o-kase,1016556

I do not want to bias this so may be you pick a subject next time, would you?

icesterftl


Sorry, that was in Polish.

Here again in English:
http://www.polishforums.com/boguslaw_bagsik_polish_scam_arist-4_26843_0.html

icesterftl


Oh, you want the former president Padrewski's (real name Izaak Stoltzman) facts:

http://www.polonica.net/kwasniewski_stoltzman.htm

icesterftl

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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by icesterftl » Tue May 05, 2009 11:35 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
icesterftl wrote: Despite the Human Rights agreement in 1993 the Jews in Poland still use the comunist law and constitution.


The Constitution of the Republic of Poland of 2 April 1997 is Poland's current constitution. It replaced the temporary amendments put into place in 1992 designed to reverse the effects of communism.

Now, I think you made up your "fact". That is unfair. This "holocaust denial" forum is extremely complex, argumentative and the last thing we need is someone making up facts. I suggest, that if you want include a fact in any posting that you need to be prepared to "back it up" with a internet reference.


Here is a short list of Polish Jews - they changed their Jewish surnames to Polish

Lech Wałęsa - Lejba Kohne
Aleksander Kwaśniewski - Izaak Stoltzman
Jolanta Kwaśniewska -Konty - Kohn
Leszek Balcerowicz - Aaron Bucholtz
Marek Borowski - Szymon Berman
Jarosław i Lech Kaczyńscy - Kalkstein
Jacek Kuroń - Icek Kordblum
Jan Maria Rokita - Izaak Goldwicht
Tadeusz Mazowiecki - Icek Dikman
Adam Michnik - Aaron Szechter
Andrzej Olechowski - Mosze Brandwein
Włodzimierz Cimoszewicz - Dawid Goldstein
Hanna Gronkiewicz-Waltz - Haka Grundbaum
Hanna Suchocka - Haka Silberstein
Stefan Niesiołowski - Aaron Nusselbaum
Bronisław Geremek - Berele Lewartow
Ludwik Dorn - Dornbaum
Janusz Korwin-Mikke - Ozjasz Goldberg
Grzegorz Kołodko - Samuel Hanerman
Marian Krzaklewski - Dawid Zimmerman
Jan K. Bielecki - Izaak Blumenfeld
Bolesław Bierut - Rotenschwanz
Lech Falandysz - Aaron Fleischman
Władysław Frasyniuk - Rotenschwanz
Ryszard Bugaj - Izaak Blumfeld
Andrzej Milczanowski - Aaron Edelman
Józef Cyrankiewicz - Izaak Cymerman
Wisława Szymborska - Rottermund
Jerzy Stuhr (aktor) - Josek Feingold
Józef Oleksy - Szymon Buchwio (Łemek)
Jan Olszewski - Izaak Oksner
Janusz Onyszkiewicz - Jojne Grynberg
Piotr Ikonowicz - Dawid Goldsmith
Jerzy Jaskiernia - Aaron Aksman
Janusz Korczak - Henryk Goldszmit
Hanna Krall - Haka Rejchgold
Janusz Zaorski - Jakub Bauman
Leszek Moczulski - Robert Berman
Jan Parys - Haim Pufahl
Krzysztof Skubiszewski - Szymon Schimel
Irena Szewińska - I. Kirszenstein
Stefan Szwedowicz (brat Michnika) - Szechter
Paweł Śpiewak - Stinger
Jerzy Turowicz - Jakow Turnau
Jerzy Urban - Josek Urbach
Mieczysław Wachowski - Jakub Windman
Henryk Walczak - Zukerman
Andrzej Zoll - Rojeschwanz

It is all public data now.

icesterftl

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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by icesterftl » Tue May 05, 2009 11:50 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
icesterftl wrote: Despite the Human Rights agreement in 1993 the Jews in Poland still use the comunist law and constitution.


The Constitution of the Republic of Poland of 2 April 1997 is Poland's current constitution. It replaced the temporary amendments put into place in 1992 designed to reverse the effects of communism.

Now, I think you made up your "fact". That is unfair. This "holocaust denial" forum is extremely complex, argumentative and the last thing we need is someone making up facts. I suggest, that if you want include a fact in any posting that you need to be prepared to "back it up" with a internet reference.


Reply to TheKruk, UKGUY and those that don't study history and politics.

If you even open up "Encyclopedia Judaica" they themself claim that most of the communist regimes in both poland and russia were ran by 97% Jews, in documents by US govt (you can get copy's by emailing US govt) they can confirm that). The thing about european Jews is that they don't just run cafees or usual business for profits, they run things that have strategical values in long term politics, look at shareholders in ALL polish media (except TV-Trwam and Radio-maria), they are not Catholics, Chirstians nor Muslims they are Zionists, same goes to the "Federal Reserve". This has nothing to do with Poles beeing intolerate of foreigners, my question: How tolerae would the Israeli government be if Jerusalem-Post, Haaretz and the other Israeli media were ran by Iranians, shouldnt they be examplary in the "tolerance"... well i thought so, a country that allows foreigners to own it's media is suicide... media tells people what to believe and turns it's most democratic values into the worst tyranny and slavery. If you are an Israeli and dislike that Poland wants now it's country back from the Jewish-Communist Rule go back to your "homeland" Israel, nobody is holding you here, from there you can scream anti-Semite and twist Partiotism to be Nazism all you want, nobody will listen neither will we, nor will the Russian people that currently support Putin.

If you are still unaware of the Zionist Powers please watch the doc. videos:

video.google.com/url?docid=2894821400057137878&esrc=sr7&ev=v&q= israel+lobby&vidurl=http://video.google.com/videoplay%3Fdocid%3D289482 1400057137878%26q%3Disrael%2Blobby&usg=AL29H21mdKreV9PQ-3h_gHftelah5lH e5Q

youtube.com/watch?v=YtwD12ZV5wQ

youtube.com/watch?v=Nch43wy8Zb8

Also theres alot of well investigated documentation availabel at

iamthewintess.com and polonica.net

P.S. When i say Jew's i don't mean the race nor religion, i mean the tiny group of very wealthy people, most Jew's even in Israel are beein deceived and are victim of this Zionist sickness.

Take care folks, peace.

forwarded by:

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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by vanderpoel » Tue May 05, 2009 3:59 pm

Martin Brock wrote:
vanderpoel wrote:What donʻt you get about discrediting when David clearly states: "When individual examples are looked at, a different story emerges" referring to "the Ugly Myth"?

I don't use this "Ugly Myth" language myself, but I don't get what you assert here, because your assertion is false.

OK, let me take it a little slower then, you said:
Martin Brock wrote:"But I don't see David trying to "discredit" the picture at all. He doesn't suggest that the picture is faked. He doesn't suggest that it's not a true depiction of a frightened, young boy raising his arms on some Nazi command with other Jews in Warsaw."

Referring to an iconic image as evidence to support the assertion of the "Ugly Myth" is discrediting that image because discrediting means:

to bring into disrepute, disgrace, dishonor, damage the reputation of, blacken the name of, put/show in a bad light, reflect badly on, compromise, stigmatize, smear, tarnish, taint, slur, disprove or invalidate.

Since you mistakenly think that discrediting means "that the picture is faked" or
"that it's not a true depiction", I understand your confusion. I hope I have this cleared up for you. Youʻre welcome.
Martin Brock wrote:You aren't interested in David's point about the historical facts. You're only interested in presenting yourself as holier than David and ultimately holier than Hitler. Being holier than Hitler just doesn't impress me. Practically everyone is holier than Hitler, even Saggy.

Wow, a free psychological analysis of my writing. I have never been compared to Hitler.

In your angry attempt to "discredit" me, (for an explanation of what "discredit" means refer to the paragraph above) your assertion that I am holier than Hitler, presupposes that Hitler is holy. Do I detect a little reverence for Hitler in that statement or are you also not familiar with the meaning of the word "holy"?

Despite your ad hominem (name calling is against the rules), I choose to see a bigger picture of a man desperate for help in explaining the meaning of the word "holy" (again, youʻre welcome):

saintly, godly, saintlike, pious, pietistic, religious, devout, God-fearing, spiritual, angelic, sinless, pure, numinous, beatific. canonized, beatified, ordained, sacred, consecrated, hallowed, sanctified, sacrosanct, venerated, revered, divine or blessed.

I donʻt know if any of these definitions describe Hitler, but youʻre comparing apples and oranges because none of them describe me. :mrgreen:
"When you put a toucan on a monkey’s ass, don’t be fooled by the brightly colored plumage, beware of the enormous bill!"

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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by Martin Brock » Tue May 05, 2009 8:56 pm

vanderpoel wrote:Referring to an iconic image as evidence to support the assertion of the "Ugly Myth" is discrediting that image because discrediting means:

to bring into disrepute, disgrace, dishonor, damage the reputation of, blacken the name of, put/show in a bad light, reflect badly on, compromise, stigmatize, smear, tarnish, taint, slur, disprove or invalidate.


He doesn't discredit the picture. He discredits suggestions that the boy subsequently died.

Since you mistakenly think that discrediting means "that the picture is faked" or "that it's not a true depiction", I understand your confusion. I hope I have this cleared up for you. Youʻre welcome.


Well, you've repeated yourself, if that makes you feel better, but you're no closer to addressing David's point than you were before. David himself agrees that you miss his point, but you apparently believe that you know his mind better than he does.

Wow, a free psychological analysis of my writing. I have never been compared to Hitler.

In your angry attempt to "discredit" me, (for an explanation of what "discredit" means refer to the paragraph above) your assertion that I am holier than Hitler, presupposes that Hitler is holy.


Here's more free psychological advice. Disagreement is not equivalent to anger. No one is out to get you.

I suppose Hitler falls on the holiness spectrum somewhere above Satan, but being holier than Hitler still doesn't impress me.

Do I detect a little reverence for Hitler in that statement or are you also not familiar with the meaning of the word "holy"?


No. You detect another opportunity for a facile, self-aggrandizing quip.

Despite your ad hominem (name calling is against the rules), I choose to see a bigger picture of a man desperate for help in explaining the meaning of the word "holy" (again, youʻre welcome):


You imagine ad hominem attacks to cast yourself as a victim.
People associating freely respect norms of their choice, and relationships governed this way are necessarily interdependent.

More central authorities conquer by dividing, imposing norms channeling the value of synergy toward themselves.

"Every man for himself" is the prescription of a state, not a free community. A state protects the poor from the rich only in fairy tales.

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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue May 05, 2009 11:41 pm

icesterftl wrote: Here is a short list of Polish Jews - they changed their Jewish surnames to Polish.

Lech Wałęsa - Lejba Kohne


You have included a well known forgery in your reply.

Firstly, you knew that Lech was catholic. You knew this already as you saw Lech taking confession with the Pope during the solidarity movement as you said you lived under Polish communism for twenty years. "Lech Wałęsa is a devout Roman Catholic, and has said that his faith always helped him during Solidarity's difficult moments".

Secondly, you knew the list was a forgery as there was a high profile court case in Poland.
In April 2000 a Katowice court charged Kazimierz Switon (see below) with incitement of racial hatred for distributing a document, purportedly from secret Interior Ministry files, revealing the “real” Jewish names of many leading Polish politicians, including Lech Walesa (“Lejba Kohne”) and President Aleksander Kwasniewski (“Izaak Stolcman”).http://www.tau.ac.il/Anti-Semitism/asw99-2000/poland.htm


I'm not going to abuse you for doing this. I'm going to let the holocaust deniers abuse you for doing this. You are killing their movement off by using forgeries.

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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed May 06, 2009 12:18 am

icesterftl wrote: If you are still unaware of the Zionist Powers please watch the doc. videos: P.S. When i say Jew's i don't mean the race nor religion, i mean the tiny group of very wealthy people, most Jew's even in Israel are beein deceived and are victim of this Zionist sickness. icesterftl


So the "Jewish conspiracy" to control the world included having all their property conviscated by the Nazis, to have all Polish jews killed, to trick England into giving independence to India, Burma and the Trans Jordan, so Israel can have a desert patch with no natural recources......and you think this is a co ordinated plan.

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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed May 06, 2009 12:25 am

icesterftl wrote: I do not want to bias this so may be you pick a subject next time, would you? icesterftl


We can start with the NSDAP plan to raise money by pre-selling volkswagens to German citizens, which were never delivered after they sold 5,500 cars. The money was split by the NSDAP and used by Ferdinand Porche to re tool the kubelwagen factory. This is NAZIs stealing from their own people.

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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by vanderpoel » Wed May 06, 2009 1:01 am

David wrote: Anne Frank is clear evidence that there was not a policy of murder at Auschwitz yet Anne Frank has become an icon of "the Holocaust." Icons vs. Reality

David, or your great defender Martin Brock, please explain how it follows that:
" Anne Frank is clear evidence that there was not a policy of murder at Auschwitz"?
Last edited by vanderpoel on Wed May 06, 2009 2:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by Martin Brock » Wed May 06, 2009 2:57 am

vanderpoel wrote:
David wrote: Anne Frank is clear evidence that there was not a policy of murder at Auschwitz yet Anne Frank has become an icon of "the Holocaust." Icons vs. Reality

David, or your great defender Martin Brock, please explain how it follows that:
" Anne Frank is clear evidence that there was not a policy of murder at Auschwitz"?


If you weren't blinded by your own simple group-think, you might have noticed that I've already addressed this statement critically myself, despite being David's "great defender".
People associating freely respect norms of their choice, and relationships governed this way are necessarily interdependent.

More central authorities conquer by dividing, imposing norms channeling the value of synergy toward themselves.

"Every man for himself" is the prescription of a state, not a free community. A state protects the poor from the rich only in fairy tales.

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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed May 06, 2009 3:20 am

Martin Brock wrote: He doesn't discredit the picture. He discredits suggestions that the boy subsequently died.


Martin, you are lazy even for a holocaust denier. What do you think the liquidations were about? Where do you think the train was going?

From the Stroop report that has already been posted on this forum...

In total, 1690 Jews were captured alive. According to stories from the Jews, there have definitely also been parachutists dropped here and bandits who have been supplied weapons from an unknown location. 274 Jews were shot, and as on other days, uncounted Jews were buried alive in the blown-up bunkers and, as near as can be determined, burned. With today's bounty of Jews, a very large portion of the bandits and lowest elements of the Ghetto has, in my opinion, been captured. Immediate liquidation was not carried out due to the onset of darkness. I will attempt to obtain a train for T II for tomorrow, otherwise the liquidations will be carried out tomorrow.

http://www.holocaust-history.org/works/ ... trp034.jpg

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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by vanderpoel » Wed May 06, 2009 3:27 am

Martin Brock wrote:
vanderpoel wrote:
David wrote: Anne Frank is clear evidence that there was not a policy of murder at Auschwitz yet Anne Frank has become an icon of "the Holocaust." Icons vs. Reality

David, or your great defender Martin Brock, please explain how it follows that:
" Anne Frank is clear evidence that there was not a policy of murder at Auschwitz"?


If you weren't blinded by your own simple group-think, you might have noticed that I've already addressed this statement critically myself, despite being David's "great defender".

How is your statement that: "She wasn't a victim of "murder" herself, because state policies killed her and statesmen define "murder" any different than Davidʻs contention that she was not murdered? :roll:

I asked why this "is clear evidence that there was not a policy of murder at Auschwitz"?
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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by David » Wed May 06, 2009 4:52 am

vanderpoel wrote:I asked why this "is clear evidence that there was not a policy of murder at Auschwitz"?


It is an example of what actually happened to girls sent to
Auschwitz. She didn't work, was housed, fed and then sent back to
Germany, along with her sister and Mother.

This is not to say the case of Anne Frank is not a horrible tragedy but
the essence of the Holocaust Myth is that a girl like Anne Frank would
have been gassed at Auschwitz. She was not.

A case of an Icon vs. Reality

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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by vanderpoel » Wed May 06, 2009 6:06 am

David wrote:
vanderpoel wrote:I asked why this "is clear evidence that there was not a policy of murder at Auschwitz"?


It is an example of what actually happened to girls sent to
Auschwitz. She didn't work, was housed, fed and then sent back to
Germany, along with her sister and Mother.

This is not to say the case of Anne Frank is not a horrible tragedy but
the essence of the Holocaust Myth is that a girl like Anne Frank would
have been gassed at Auschwitz. She was not.

A case of an Icon vs. Reality

I can accept that it is an example on one girl not being gassed at Auschwitz.
I can accept that it taints the perception that all girls would have been gassed.
I can accept that it taints the iconic image of her representing the Holocaust.

But I can not accept that this "example" "is clear evidence that there was not a
policy of murder at Auschwitz".

I do agree that many images are used as iconic representations of an event,
whereas they are often not representing reality. Thatʻs why they are merely
icons, chosen for their effectiveness in portraying an idea and not to be confused
with evidence.

The planting of the flag on Iwo Jima is certainly an iconic image, but not to be
confused with evidence that it was the first flag planted there:

"On Feb. 23, just four days into the battle to take Iwo Jima from the Japanese, Marines climbed Mt. Suribachi, the island's highest point. Using a 100-pound length of pipe that was part of the Japanese army's rain drainage system, the American flag was hoisted into place. It was the first American flag to fly on Japanese territory.

But Secretary of the Navy James Forrestal , down on the beach, ordered the flag taken down for posterity. An underling then ordered a bigger flag be placed at the top of Mt. Suribachi.

The second flag, the one in the photo, was taken off a ship sunk by the Japanese at Pearl Harbor. The replacement flag was carried up the cliffs by Gagnon. He and the five other flag-raisers, and photographer Joe Rosenthal, had nothing to do with the first flag."
http://www.iwojima.com/press/sites/usatoday.htm

There is a myth that the photo was faked:

"The three survivors would wrestle with their role in the mythic flag-raising for the rest of their lives. They would, for the most part, remember the event as the least heroic of their moments on Iwo Jima, Bradley says. For despite the myth that the photo was staged -- it wasn't -- neither was the flag raised in a hailstorm of bullets and mortars as war correspondents reported. And it wasn't the first flag raised on the island."

"Thousands of books record the battle for Iwo Jima, the most chronicled battle of World War II and one of the bloodiest battles in history. Nearly 7,000 Americans lost their lives in the 36-day fight; more than 18,000 were wounded. As for the island's Japanese defenders, all 22,000 were killed by U.S. Marines or by their own hands."

But more than the bloody, churning waters, more than the stench of death, more than the screams of the dying and wounded, the public still remembers the iconic photograph that stirred hope and became the country's symbol of valor and victory.

Yet, nobody has ever attempted to use the icon vs. reality controversy as
"clear evidence" that the killings never happened.
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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by icesterftl » Wed May 06, 2009 5:36 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
icesterftl wrote: Here is a short list of Polish Jews - they changed their Jewish surnames to Polish.

Lech Wałęsa - Lejba Kohne


You have included a well known forgery in your reply.

Firstly, you knew that Lech was catholic. You knew this already as you saw Lech taking confession with the Pope during the solidarity movement as you said you lived under Polish communism for twenty years. "Lech Wałęsa is a devout Roman Catholic, and has said that his faith always helped him during Solidarity's difficult moments".

Secondly, you knew the list was a forgery as there was a high profile court case in Poland.
In April 2000 a Katowice court charged Kazimierz Switon (see below) with incitement of racial hatred for distributing a document, purportedly from secret Interior Ministry files, revealing the “real” Jewish names of many leading Polish politicians, including Lech Walesa (“Lejba Kohne”) and President Aleksander Kwasniewski (“Izaak Stolcman”).http://www.tau.ac.il/Anti-Semitism/asw99-2000/poland.htm


I'm not going to abuse you for doing this. I'm going to let the holocaust deniers abuse you for doing this. You are killing their movement off by using forgeries.


Firstly, there thousands of catholic Jews in Poland and I have two in my family.
Lech Wlensa nad Kwasieski ware both members of communist party and agents recruited by Russians.

Secondly, Katowice court is as good as any one in China or Vietnam.
In Poland courts are run by Jews.
The Jewish justice is as fair as the comunism itself.
Kwasniewski's constitution changed one thing: Milicja is now called Policja
and that's about it as far as the changes in freedom for Polish people.

Abuse me, how?

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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by icesterftl » Wed May 06, 2009 5:49 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
icesterftl wrote: If you are still unaware of the Zionist Powers please watch the doc. videos: P.S. When i say Jew's i don't mean the race nor religion, i mean the tiny group of very wealthy people, most Jew's even in Israel are beein deceived and are victim of this Zionist sickness. icesterftl


So the "Jewish conspiracy" to control the world included having all their property conviscated by the Nazis, to have all Polish jews killed, to trick England into giving independence to India, Burma and the Trans Jordan, so Israel can have a desert patch with no natural recources......and you think this is a co ordinated plan.


What "Jewish conspiracy"?
Are you writing a comic book?
I gave you example with evidence of Jews ripping of billion of dollars from Poland and Polish people and You reply with a hysterical joke.
If you do not see a problem with Jewish fair play than you either are a Jew or acting as one.
In which case your comics and twisting is understandable.

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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by icesterftl » Wed May 06, 2009 5:56 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
icesterftl wrote: I do not want to bias this so may be you pick a subject next time, would you? icesterftl


We can start with the NSDAP plan to raise money by pre-selling volkswagens to German citizens, which were never delivered after they sold 5,500 cars. The money was split by the NSDAP and used by Ferdinand Porche to re tool the kubelwagen factory. This is NAZIs stealing from their own people.



What is the relation between this and Jewish sense of fair play?

Also, NSDAP did not sent money to Israel or did they?

Give me one single example of Jewish contribution to wealth and prosperity of Polish people and Polish state.

Icesterftl

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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by Martin Brock » Wed May 06, 2009 6:24 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Martin Brock wrote: He doesn't discredit the picture. He discredits suggestions that the boy subsequently died.


Martin, you are lazy even for a holocaust denier. What do you think the liquidations were about? Where do you think the train was going?


I'm not a holocaust denier. I don't deny liquidations that occurred. I don't deny that trains took Jews from Warsaw to Treblinka after the uprising. The words you quote don't imply any of these conclusions. You're playing a simple-minded, political game.

The specific issue involves a specific boy in a specific picture and whether this specific boy subsequently died in a concentration camp.
People associating freely respect norms of their choice, and relationships governed this way are necessarily interdependent.

More central authorities conquer by dividing, imposing norms channeling the value of synergy toward themselves.

"Every man for himself" is the prescription of a state, not a free community. A state protects the poor from the rich only in fairy tales.

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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by Martin Brock » Wed May 06, 2009 6:41 pm

vanderpoel wrote:How is your statement that: "She wasn't a victim of "murder" herself, because state policies killed her and statesmen define "murder" any different than Davidʻs contention that she was not murdered? :roll:


It's different in precisely the way that I differentiate it in the words you omit. My complete statement is still up there. You're simply being deceptive here.

Anne Frank died in Germany of typhus. Nazi policies killed her, but she wasn't "murdered", because states distinguish "murder" from other killing, and Nazis were the state at the time. Today, you hear John Yu, Condaleezza Rice and others telling you that the United States doesn't "torture" for similar reasons.

I asked why this "is clear evidence that there was not a policy of murder at Auschwitz"?


And you called me David's "great defender", because you can't distinguish people based on their own statements rather than your own vague categories. I didn't make the statement you're disputing.
People associating freely respect norms of their choice, and relationships governed this way are necessarily interdependent.

More central authorities conquer by dividing, imposing norms channeling the value of synergy toward themselves.

"Every man for himself" is the prescription of a state, not a free community. A state protects the poor from the rich only in fairy tales.

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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by Saggy » Wed May 06, 2009 7:28 pm

Martin Brock wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:Martin, you are lazy even for a holocaust denier. What do you think the liquidations were about? Where do you think the train was going?

The words you quote don't imply any of these conclusions. You're playing a simple-minded, political game.


"The more I argued with them the more I learned their dialectic. At first they calculated on the stupidity of their adversary. Then, when they could find no other way out, they played stupid themselves."

It's kind of sickening, yes?

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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by icesterftl » Wed May 06, 2009 8:50 pm

Saggy wrote:
Martin Brock wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:Martin, you are lazy even for a holocaust denier. What do you think the liquidations were about? Where do you think the train was going?

The words you quote don't imply any of these conclusions. You're playing a simple-minded, political game.


"The more I argued with them the more I learned their dialectic. At first they calculated on the stupidity of their adversary. Then, when they could find no other way out, they played stupid themselves."

It's kind of sickening, yes?


Here is more meat to grind for them:

Swindler's Mist: A Critical Review of Steven
Spielberg's Film, "Schindler's List"

Copyright 1994 By Alan R. Critchley and Michael A. Hoffman II

The following is an abridgement of a more comprehensive article, "Swindler's Mist" first published in Michael A. Hoffman II's Revisionist Researcher newsletter. http://www.hoffman-info.com

Hollywood illusionist Steven Spielberg's mendacious anti-German libel, "Schindler's List," is based upon a novel, that is to say, a work of fiction, titled in its first edition, "Schindler's Ark," by the Australian writer Thomas Keneally (the book's name was later altered to coincide with the title of the movie).

Keneally's work is riddled with errors. For example, in chapter 33 he states that when the Russians arrived at Lublin/Majdanek, they uncovered the secret of the extermination centers by discovering: "furnaces containing human bones and over 500 drums of Zyklon B. News of this was published throughout the world, and Himmler...was willing to convey promises to the Allies that the gassings of Jews would stop."

As a matter of fact, all large German concentration camps had cremation facilities, all of which burned human bones. All German concentration camps used Zyklon B as a life-saving disinfestation agent for killing body lice, the carrier of typhus.

If the Russian discovery proves extermination, then all German concentration camps were "extermination camps," which, unknown to the general public, no historian of World War II, either Jewish or non-Jewish, claims.

Furthermore, Heinrich Himmler never admitted to the Allies that the Germans were gassing Jews. In fact, he condemned the allegation as Allied propaganda.

There are certain aspects of Keneally's book which Spielberg omitted from the movie. Keneally mentioned that Schindler worked for the powerful Hungarian Jew Rudolf Kastner.

Nowhere will this information be found in Schindler's List because in 1944 Kastner helped Eichmann deport hundreds of thousands of Jews to Auschwitz, in return for favorable treatment for Kastner's Zionist cronies. The fact of high level cooperation between Nazis and Zionists was too embarrassing to be included in Spielberg's pro-Zionist film.

Although there were orders to administrators from the National Socialist government that concentration camp inmates were not to be brutalized, the camps themselves varied from well-run, fundamentally decent places of confinement, to pure hell-holes, depending to a large degree on the quality of the Nazi leadership in each concentration camp.

Some commandants such as Amon Goeth and Karl Otto Koch were little more than criminals, while others like Hermann Pister were incorruptible and supervised the most humane facilities they could under the circumstances, given the scarcity of food and medicine in wartime Germany under conditions of saturation bombing by the Allied air forces.

There are many instances of attempts by the German military to secure humane conditions within the concentration camps. For example, in 1943 SS Judge Konrad Morgen of the Haupt Amt Gericht (SS-HAG) was assigned to investigate and prosecute brutality at Buchenwald.

Morgen was so successful in correcting conditions there that Himmler gave him an expanded staff and unlimited investigative authority in the camps. Morgen's next target of inquiry was Krakau-Plaszow and its commandant, Amon Goeth, the arch-fiend of Speilberg's film.

In Spielberg's "Schindler's List" Morgen's entire investigation of Goeth was reduced to a scene in which fleeting reference is made to Goeth having his books "audited." If you blinked, you missed it.

The crucial truth that Steven Spielberg withheld from his audience is that in September of 1944, Goeth was arrested by the Central Office of the SS Judiciary and imprisoned on charges of theft and the murder of concentration camp inmates.

Spielberg was certainly aware of this fact, since the arrest is mentioned in chapter 31 of the book by Keneally upon which the movie is allegedly based.

[Verification of the arrest and/or prosecution of Commandant Goeth by the SS can be found in Reuben Ainsztein's Jewish Resistance in Nazi Occupied Eastern Europe, p. 845; in the affidavit of Obersturmbannfuhrer Kurt Mittelstaedt, chief of the SS Central Judiciary at Munich and Morgen's immediate superio; and in the testimony of Morgen himself (cf. vol. 42, IMT "Blue series," p. 556].

Spielberg whitewashes the guilt of the OD (Ordnungdienst: Jewish ghetto police) who worked for the Nazis. Though occasionally shown taking bribes and helping the Nazis control Jewish crowds, their main role in the movie is that of bystanders and traffic monitors. In real life however, many OD were ruthless killers.

Toward the end of the movie, Schindler is shown being presented with an inscribed gold ring by the Jews he rescued. We are told that the inscription is from the Talmud, "He who saves a single life, saves the entire world." (This quotation also appears on posters advertising Schindler's List in video stores and schools, apparently having been selected as the film's motto by its promoters).

The saying has a nice, warm, humanistic tenor, but there's just one problem: that's not what the Talmud says. The actual Talmud verse states, "Whosoever preserves a single soul of Israel, Scripture ascribes to him as if he had preserved a complete world" (Tractate Sanhedrin 37a). The Talmud only praises the saving of Jewish lives. In Spielberg's non-stop deception, even the documented contents of Jewish books are falsified.

Much has been made of the supposed "conciliatory nature" of Schindler's List because it shows exactly two Germans (Mr. and Mrs. Schindler) acting decently. However it depicts every member of the German military as either a monster or a homicidal robot. The perpetuation of this false stereotype constitutes hate propaganda.

If a Muslim director were to make a film that depicted only two benign Jews and then portrayed the entire Israeli army as consisting of monsters and homicidal automatons, the American and European media would undoubtedly condemn it for hatefully stereotyping the whole of the Israeli army. Media perspicacity is not so acute when it comes to detecting the mechanics of Spielbergian hatred concealed in a human rights mask.

"Schindler's List" is more sophisticated than other "Holocaust" propaganda films, having been crafted by the most successful director in Hollywood, who is clever enough to give his villains some characteristics of self-doubt, complaint and fatigue. But the film is nonetheless historically fraudulent. In the course of mounting a defense against revisionist charges of a Jewish gas chamber hoax, Mr. Spielberg has perpetrated a hoax of his own.

THE FACT SPIELBERG SUPPRESSED IN SCHINDLER'S LIST: The Commandant of Krakau-Plaszow (Amon Goeth) Was Arrested by the SS for Brutality against Inmates. By Michael A. Hoffman II. Research by Alan R. Critchley. Copyright ©1994 and ©1997 by Hoffman and Critchley. All Rights Reserved.

The Academy Award winning liturgy of our state "Holocaust" religion--Spielberg's holy movie--would have fallen into disrepute and made a laughing-stock of its premise (that the entire German military consisted of homicidal robots), had the viewing public been aware of the fact that the SS Commandant of concentration camp Krakau-Plaszow (Amon Goeth), the chief villain of "Schindler's List," had been arrested by the SS Judicial Police for "acts of brutality and sadism" against inmates, among other crimes.

The war ended before Goeth could be executed by the SS, but other wicked concentration camp commandants (at Buchenwald and Lublin) were shot by the SS high command for, among other crimes, brutality against inmates.

This vital, exculpatory information has been censored by Spielberg in order to maintain his propaganda depiction of the German military in the worst possible light.

The fact that the SS, under orders from Heinrich Himmler, attempted to operate the concentration camps (KZ) in a humane manner, in part by prosecuting, jailing and even executing brutal Nazi concentration camp personnel, has been nearly completely suppressed in much of the discussion of the history of World War Two.

One of the key officers who was instrumental in Himmler's campaign to attempt to ensure the human rights of KZ inmates, was the heroic and incorruptible SS Judge Konrad Morgen. His testimony follows:

From Affidavit SS-65 by SS Judge Konrad Morgen, IMT Vol. 42, p. 556:

Individual criminal acts - in these cases having broad implications - included: the assumption of a license to kill by commandants and subordinates concealed through falsification of medical death certificates.

Arbitrary conduct, chicanery, unlawful corporal punishments, acts of brutality and sadism, liquidation of no-longer-convenient accomplices, theft and black-market profiteering.

ALL OF THESE OFFENSES WERE COMMITTED both alone by prisoners AS WELL AS BY PERSONNEL OF THE SS, most however in conspiracy between SS personnel with kapos (Jewish concentration camp guards).

The intervention of SS jurisdiction in the concentration camps commenced with the initiation of my investigations in July 1943 and lasted until the conclusion of the war. It could not have started sooner, because there were no suspicions in this regard.

Arrested were the commandants of Buchenwald, Lublin, Warschau, Herzogenbosch, KRAKAU-PLASZOW.

The commandants of Buchenwald and Lublin were shot.

More than a hundred cases were brought to a verdict. Maximum punishments were imposed on members of all ranks.

[Emphasis supplied]

This is the reality which Spielberg could not portray in his film. His movie's racist hatred for Germans in uniform could not brook any contradiction from the facts of the documentary record.

Millions of people are ignorant of these facts and Spielberg has increased the bigotry and hate in the world by producing a cinematic fantasy--Schindler's List--which demonizes the entire German military, some of whose leaders were, in truth, as horrified and angered by brutality against inmates as any other decent human being would be, and took direct action to stop it.

But in the racist campaign to dehumanize the Germans, facts inconvenient to negative stereotyping become stigmatized as "anti-semitic" and consigned to the memory hole.

Historians, journalists and the public are being stampeded into accepting as gospel truth the superstitions of a new state religion. If one dares to point out the lies, censorship and bigotry of the homicidal gas chamber cult, one is immediately accused of being a heretic -- i.e. an "anti-semite," a "neo-Nazi" or a "hate-monger."

The successful ascription of any one of those epithets is sufficient to cause the heretic in question to lose his reputation, his career and in Canada and Europe, his freedom and perhaps even his physical security (in France in 1989 revisionist Prof. Robert Faurisson was nearly beaten to death).

It is by these means--deceit, psychological warfare, witchhunts, show trials, the dungeon and ultimately, physical terror--and by these means alone--that the state religion of the Six Million Myth maintains its suzerainty over the hearts and minds of hundreds of millions of people in the West.

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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by Pyrrho » Wed May 06, 2009 11:43 pm

icesterftl, our forum rules prohibit the posting of copyrighted materials in full. Please reduce your post to a brief quotation of the copyrighted content and provide a link to the rest where it exists online. Thank you.
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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by Pyrrho » Wed May 06, 2009 11:51 pm

The defamatory posts against Jews in this and other topics are in violation of our forum rules regarding defamatory, dehumanizing attacks on ethnic groups. We are under no obligation to host such content on this forum. More such posts will result in administrative action. If you cannot discuss the issues without resorting to defamatory attacks, you will no longer be welcome to post here.
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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by David » Wed May 06, 2009 11:52 pm

vanderpoel wrote:I can accept that it is an example on one girl not being gassed at Auschwitz.
I can accept that it taints the perception that all girls would have been gassed.
I can accept that it taints the iconic image of her representing the Holocaust.

But I can not accept that this "example" "is clear evidence that there was not a
policy of murder at Auschwitz".


I agree with you. I overstated the case.
What I was actually thinking was Anne Frank is a clear example of
the Revisionist thesis, ie. that there was a policy of internment
but that most deaths occurred toward the end of the War due to
deterioration of conditions in the Camps.

Even the example of the entire Frank family is not a "clear example"
of very much even though none of the family died at Auschwitz
and all the women were transported back to Germany.

I have some scattered research which indicates that Anne
Frank is not an isolated case but that is a different discussion.

My point here is only that images and stories- icons- take on
a meaning and become a powerful mental shorthand in how people
look at history. The image of the raising of 2nd flag at Iwo Jima has created a perception of the heroic nature of WWII for Americans.
The icons are powerful but not necessarily accurate.

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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by Saggy » Thu May 07, 2009 12:29 am

Pyrrho wrote:The defamatory posts against Jews in this and other topics are in violation of our forum rules regarding defamatory, dehumanizing attacks on ethnic groups.



In fact you yourself regularly post defamatory attacks on an ethnic group, that is, Germans. In this thread you posted that it was 'fairly clear' that the Nazis committed horrendous crimes. I correctly asked you for evidence of this accusation. You did not even feel any need to respond.

Now, when someone makes a 'defamatory attack' on Jews, you wake up, that can't be, it's not allowed, administrative action is called for.

Do you see what has happened? The most vile attacks on Germans are common currency, they are perfectly acceptable in the best society. To ask for any evidence is in itself evidence of anti-semitism on the the part of the audience.

And yet, any attack on the Jews, even when supported with data and argument, is not allowed. It can't be given voice. Why? Maybe it is true. Maybe it is false. But if the accusation is accompanied by argument and reason, then I suggest you refute it before banning anyone. In this case, we are dealing with first hand experience. If you don't feel the need to even attempt to refute it, then I don't think you should immediately threaten to ban anyone.

Ban yourself first.

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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by vanderpoel » Thu May 07, 2009 12:59 am

Saggy wrote:
Pyrrho wrote:The defamatory posts against Jews in this and other topics are in violation of our forum rules regarding defamatory, dehumanizing attacks on ethnic groups.

In fact you yourself regularly post defamatory attacks on an ethnic group, that is, Germans. In this thread you posted that it was 'fairly clear' that the Nazis committed horrendous crimes. I correctly asked you for evidence of this accusation. You did not even feel any need to respond.

Saggy, not that pyrrho needs any help answering your post, but why should he respond to your statement:
"In this thread you posted that it was 'fairly clear' that the Nazis committed horrendous crimes. I correctly asked you for evidence of this accusation"?

First, it is indeed: "'fairly clear' that the Nazis committed horrendous crimes",
better yet, it is "damn clear" to anyone who is familiar with WWII history.
Second, there is nothing "correctly" about asking for such evidence.
Third, you might as well ask for evidence that the earth is round.

But we no longer live in the dark ages :roll:
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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by David » Thu May 07, 2009 1:56 am

vanderpoel wrote:The defamatory posts against Jews in this and other topics are in violation of our forum rules regarding defamatory, dehumanizing attacks on ethnic groups.


While I agree that Pyrrho has better things to do that host defamatory
posts against Jews

Saggy does have a good point that large parts of the Ugly Myth
do defame and dehumanize Germans and other groups of
Eastern Europeans. Not good either.

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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu May 07, 2009 2:05 am

Martin Brock wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Martin Brock wrote: He doesn't discredit the picture. He discredits suggestions that the boy subsequently died.


Martin, you are lazy even for a holocaust denier. What do you think the liquidations were about? Where do you think the train was going?


I'm not a holocaust denier.


Yes you are. You deny that there was a systematic government controlled execution of a political groups as commanded by the leader of the NSDAP Adolf Hitler. Live with your choice.

Martin Brock wrote: I don't deny liquidations that occurred. I don't deny that trains took Jews from Warsaw to Treblinka after the uprising. The words you quote don't imply any of these conclusions. You're playing a simple-minded, political game.


In gave you a quote from Stroop saying he could not perform liquidations as it was getting dark. The liquidations were the people caught in Warsaw. If Charles Manson wrote that he liquidated people a court would accept that as evidence. You dont.

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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu May 07, 2009 2:10 am

icesterftl wrote: Secondly, Katowice court is as good as any one in China or Vietnam.
In Poland courts are run by Jews.
The Jewish justice is as fair as the comunism itself.
Kwasniewski's constitution changed one thing: Milicja is now called Policja
and that's about it as far as the changes in freedom for Polish people.

Abuse me, how? icesterftl


You posted a forged document as "evidence" knowing it was a forged document. Before that you claimed Poland still had the communist constitution. It doesn't. You are "cheating" which is really destryoying your own holocaust denial movement because skeptics, if bothered, check things.

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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by Martin Brock » Thu May 07, 2009 2:17 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:Yes you are. You deny that there was a systematic government controlled execution of a political groups as commanded by the leader of the NSDAP Adolf Hitler. Live with your choice.


I've never denied it. You are a very deliberate liar.

In gave you a quote from Stroop saying he could not perform liquidations as it was getting dark. The liquidations were the people caught in Warsaw. If Charles Manson wrote that he liquidated people a court would accept that as evidence. You dont.


The only question on the table here is the survival of one boy in one famous picture. I take seriously the claim of a man who believes he is the boy pictured. This man survived.

You then assert that I reject evidence of the deaths of other people in Warsaw in the forties, and your assertion is willfully deceptive.
People associating freely respect norms of their choice, and relationships governed this way are necessarily interdependent.

More central authorities conquer by dividing, imposing norms channeling the value of synergy toward themselves.

"Every man for himself" is the prescription of a state, not a free community. A state protects the poor from the rich only in fairy tales.

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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by Pyrrho » Thu May 07, 2009 2:28 am

Saggy wrote:
Pyrrho wrote:The defamatory posts against Jews in this and other topics are in violation of our forum rules regarding defamatory, dehumanizing attacks on ethnic groups.



In fact you yourself regularly post defamatory attacks on an ethnic group, that is, Germans. In this thread you posted that it was 'fairly clear' that the Nazis committed horrendous crimes. I correctly asked you for evidence of this accusation. You did not even feel any need to respond.

Actually, I'm working on it. Assembling references to available evidence takes time, and I only have so much time to devote to this, and it isn't on my list of priorities, so everyone will have to wait until it's posted. No ETA, so I refer those who can't wait to the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum as a starting point.

http://www.ushmm.org/

Please read everything at that site before complaining about how long it's taking me to respond to demands for evidence.
Now, when someone makes a 'defamatory attack' on Jews, you wake up, that can't be, it's not allowed, administrative action is called for.

Do you see what has happened? The most vile attacks on Germans are common currency, they are perfectly acceptable in the best society. To ask for any evidence is in itself evidence of anti-semitism on the the part of the audience.

And yet, any attack on the Jews, even when supported with data and argument, is not allowed. It can't be given voice. Why? Maybe it is true. Maybe it is false. But if the accusation is accompanied by argument and reason, then I suggest you refute it before banning anyone. In this case, we are dealing with first hand experience. If you don't feel the need to even attempt to refute it, then I don't think you should immediately threaten to ban anyone.

Ban yourself first.

Nazis are a political party, not an ethnic group. Nobody here has been attacking Germans as an ethnic group. There have been posts here recently that defame Jews as a people, and I refer you once again to forum rules regarding defamatory, dehumanizing attacks against ethnic groups. I am under no obligation to refute such attacks or otherwise dignify them with discussion.
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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu May 07, 2009 2:30 am

Saggy wrote: "The more I argued with them the more I learned their dialectic. At first they calculated on the stupidity of their adversary. Then, when they could find no other way out, they played stupid themselves."

It's kind of sickening, yes?


For phuck sake Saggy, you are just some person posting on a forum. You have never taken your arguments to any further level to promote holocaust denial. Your fellow holocaust denier, icesterftl, has just posted a forged documents and made a false statement about the Polish constitution. Have you corrected him for your cause? This sub-forum is the limit of your realm for ever. You are not adverseries. This forum is a source of entertainment for the Skeptic Society members who, every now and then, make a comment.