Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

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Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by David » Sat May 02, 2009 10:55 pm

Belief in the Ugly Myth is based on the assertion that
there was a single German policy toward all Jews in
Europe. This assertion is the key to Belief.

When individual examples are looked at, a different
story emerges.

The 'Warsaw Ghetto Boy'

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v14n2p6.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It is probably the single most widely recognized and memorable Holocaust image of all: a frightened and apparently doomed young boy, .... Several decades after it was taken, a New York physician, Tsvi C. Nussbaum, revealed that he was the lad in the famous photograph.
AND
A Ghetto Fighter Recalls Her Capture
Institute for Historical Review
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v14n2p7.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Young women fighters rounded up during the 1943 German action against the Warsaw ghetto are shown in this widely-reproduced photograph. Like the famous "ghetto boy" photo, this was included in the 1943 "Stroop report."

Both photographs have been presented as evidence of a German
policy of "extermination", yet the reality of the individuals is a harsh
but contradictory story

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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by Pyrrho » Sat May 02, 2009 11:24 pm

That the boy in the photo was sent to a death camp seems like a reasonable assumption, considering what else is in the Stroop Report.

http://www.holocaust-history.org/works/ ... img014.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Forcibly pulled out of dug-outs."

http://www.holocaust-history.org/works/ ... trp034.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Today's mission ended for almost all of the shock troops with the breaking out of giant fires which caused the Jews to leave their hiding places and refuges. In total, 1690 Jews were captured alive. According to stories from the Jews, there have definitely also been parachutists dropped here and bandits who have been supplied weapons from an unknown location. 274 Jews were shot, and as on other days, uncounted Jews were buried alive in the blown-up bunkers and, as near as can be determined, burned. With today's bounty of Jews, a very large portion of the bandits and lowest elements of the Ghetto has, in my opinion, been captured. Immediate liquidation was not carried out due to the onset of darkness. I will attempt to obtain a train for T II for tomorrow, otherwise the liquidations will be carried out tomorrow. Also today repeated armed resistance took place and in one bunker 3 pistols and explosive charges were captured. Further today, significant supplies of paper money, currency, gold coins and items of jewelry were secured. The Jews still control possessions of significant value. If last night the former ghetto was covered with the glare of fire, then today a giant sea of fire can be seen. Since the thorough combings, carried out in accordance with plans and the rules, revealed ever more Jews in large numbers, the Action will be continued on April 26, 1943. Start: 10:00 A.M.
http://www.holocaust-history.org/works/ ... trp075.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Of the overall total of 56,065 captured Jews, about 7,000 have been destroyed in the course of the large-scale action in the former Jewish living quarter. 6,929 Jews were destroyed by transport to T. II, so that overall, 13,929 Jews were destroyed. It is estimated that, in addition to the number of 56,065, 5 - 6,000 Jews were destroyed by explosions and fire.
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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by Martin Brock » Sun May 03, 2009 12:23 am

Pyrrho wrote:That the boy in the photo was sent to a death camp seems like a reasonable assumption, considering what else is in the Stroop Report.
But apparently he didn't die. The words you quote yourself assert that more Jews survived the uprising than died in it. Why not acknowledge the facts without embellishing them with preconceived notions?
Last edited by Martin Brock on Sun May 03, 2009 12:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by Pyrrho » Sun May 03, 2009 12:29 am

Martin Brock wrote:
Pyrrho wrote:That the boy in the photo was sent to a death camp seems like a reasonable assumption, considering what else is in the Stroop Report.
But apparently he didn't die. The words you quote yourself assert that more Jews survived the uprising than died in it. Why not acknowledge the fact without embellishing it with preconceived notions?
What preconceived notions? Stroop reported liquidations and trains to what we now know was a death camp, thus it follows that it seems like a reasonable assumption that a given Jew might have been sent to a death camp. If Weber is correct and that didn't happen, that's a good thing, but Stroop does report a lot of killing. Are we to discount the horror because we're told a couple of Jews survived?
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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by Martin Brock » Sun May 03, 2009 12:41 am

Pyrrho wrote: What preconceived notions?
The one you called a "reasonable assumption".
Stroop reported liquidations and trains to what we now know was a death camp, thus it follows that it seems like a reasonable assumption that a given Jew might have been sent to a death camp.
If Nussbaum is the boy pictured, as he claims, he was sent to Bergen-Belsen rather than Treblinka. Do have evidence that he's mistaken? The problem with preconceived notions, even ones that seem reasonable, is that they can be mistaken.
If Weber is correct and that didn't happen, that's a good thing, but Stroop does report a lot of killing. Are we to discount the horror because we're told a couple of Jews survived?
Who discounted any horrors? Do you imagine yourself the only person with a heart here? We're told by the words you quote that most Jews survived the uprising in Warsaw. If Nussbaum's story is true (and he has other pictures of himself at the same age), he was arrested two months after the uprising.
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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by Pyrrho » Sun May 03, 2009 1:00 am

Martin Brock wrote:
Pyrrho wrote: What preconceived notions?
The one you called a "reasonable assumption".
Yes. I am attempting to defend the people who arrived at that conclusion. I do not necessarily hold that opinion myself, but given the content of the Stroop report, it is a conclusion that follows from the evidence it provides. The Nussbaum claim is another line of evidence.
Stroop reported liquidations and trains to what we now know was a death camp, thus it follows that it seems like a reasonable assumption that a given Jew might have been sent to a death camp.
If Nussbaum is the boy pictured, as he claims, he was sent to Bergen-Belsen rather than Treblinka. Do have evidence that he's mistaken? The problem with preconceived notions, even ones that seem reasonable, is that they can be mistaken.
True enough. However, Stroop does report thousands of deaths and transports to camps. Absent the claim that Nussbaum is the boy in the photo, is it not reasonable to conclude (or assume) that a given Jew just pulled from a bunker during the action might have been killed?
If Weber is correct and that didn't happen, that's a good thing, but Stroop does report a lot of killing. Are we to discount the horror because we're told a couple of Jews survived?
Who discounted any horrors? Do you imagine yourself the only person with a heart here?
Please don't make this a personal issue.

The OP suggests that these people who claim to be the individuals in the photographs means that the Nazis did not have a policy of extermination, yet the Stroop report specifically mentions "liquidation", shootings, and transports to "T.II", i.e. Treblinka.

We're told by the words you quote that most Jews survived the uprising in Warsaw. If Nussbaum's story is true (and he has other pictures of himself at the same age), he was arrested two months after the uprising.
Fine, I can accept that, but that doesn't mean it wasn't a reasonable assumption that he had died, given the content of the Stroop report.

The question remains: Are we to discount the horrors because we are told that some Jews survived?
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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by Martin Brock » Sun May 03, 2009 1:10 am

Pyrrho wrote: True enough. However, Stroop does report thousands of deaths and transports to camps. Absent the claim that Nussbaum is the boy in the photo, is it not reasonable to conclude (or assume) that a given Jew just pulled from a bunker during the action might have been killed?
That he might have been killed seems a reasonable assumption, but if he wasn't killed, it's a preconceived notion that turned out to be false.
Please don't make this a personal issue.
I didn't. You're the one asking the hypothetical question as though the answer might not be obvious. You have no reason to think that I discount any horrors, so I asked if you were making it a personal issue.
The question remains: Are we to discount the horrors because we are told that some Jews survived?
The question remains: Who discounts any horrors? That the boy was arrested this way is itself a horror. I don't need to imagine a still more horrible scenario to see the horror in it.

Since many estimates of the number of Jewish victims at various concentration camps have been revised downward since the end of the war, does it seem reasonable to assume that estimates of the total number of victims established soon after the war are overestimates?

I answered your question without hedging.
Last edited by Martin Brock on Sun May 03, 2009 1:20 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by David » Sun May 03, 2009 1:15 am

Pyrrho wrote:True enough.
The point is that the icon of the little boy as a symbol of
"extermination" was incorrect.

Just like the women in the picture also survived.

There is a conflict between the "icons" and
what people claim the icons show: Thus the title of
the thread. Icons vs. Reality.

It is now turning out that, while the Warsaw Ghetto
was a conflict with large casualties, a large percentage
of the residents survived, often sent to Majdanek or
through Treblinka II to camps in the East.

Lots of Belief is based on the presentations of
Icons that are accepted unSkeptically.

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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by Martin Brock » Sun May 03, 2009 1:27 am

Skepticism isn't how people naturally think. People instead pick a thesis to defend, and they're "skeptical" only of its antitheses.

People also tend to defend the theses that many other people defend and thus are "skeptical" only of unpopular theses or of theses rejected by some tribe.

In my way of thinking, this "tribal skepticism" isn't really skepticism at all. It's the antithesis of skepticism. A true skeptic questions everything, is particularly skeptical of conventional wisdom and questions his own assumptions first and foremost.
People associating freely respect norms of their choice, and relationships governed this way are necessarily interdependent.

More central authorities conquer by dividing, imposing norms channeling the value of synergy toward themselves.

"Every man for himself" is the prescription of a state, not a free community. A state protects the poor from the rich only in fairy tales.

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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by Pyrrho » Sun May 03, 2009 1:37 am

Martin Brock wrote:
Pyrrho wrote: True enough. However, Stroop does report thousands of deaths and transports to camps. Absent the claim that Nussbaum is the boy in the photo, is it not reasonable to conclude (or assume) that a given Jew just pulled from a bunker during the action might have been killed?
That he might have been killed seems a reasonable assumption, but if he wasn't killed, it's a preconceived notion that turned out to be false.
Okay, fine.
Please don't make this a personal issue.
I didn't. You're the one asking the hypothetical question as though the answer might not be obvious. You have no reason to think that I discount any horrors, so I asked if you were making it a personal issue.
I will not continue to participate if this becomes a "You, this," and "You, that" discussion.
The question remains: Are we to discount the horrors because we are told that some Jews survived?
The question remains: Who discounts any horrors? That the boy was arrested this way is itself a horror. I don't need to imagine a still more horrible scenario to see the horror in it.
Many holocaust deniers discount the horrors; in fact, many deny they ever happened.
Since many estimates of the number of Jewish victims at various concentration camps have been revised downward since the end of the war, does it seem reasonable to assume that estimates of the total number of victims established soon after the war are overestimates?
It seems reasonable to reach such a conclusion after careful examination of the evidence, but that does require careful examination of the evidence and acceptance of the evidence. Despite numerous recounts, the figure remains ~5.5 million Jews and several million other people.
I answered your question without hedging.
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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by resume » Sun May 03, 2009 2:12 am

My uncle was in Eisenhower's entourage at the end of the war. He disavowed his Catholicism when he returned to the States, and though I realize the stories he related concerning the death-camps are anecdotal, they were vivid and horrifying. And if only a fraction of them were true, they lay waste to the deniers.

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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by Pyrrho » Sun May 03, 2009 2:15 am

David wrote:
Pyrrho wrote:True enough.
The point is that the icon of the little boy as a symbol of
"extermination" was incorrect.

Just like the women in the picture also survived.

There is a conflict between the "icons" and
what people claim the icons show: Thus the title of
the thread. Icons vs. Reality.

It is now turning out that, while the Warsaw Ghetto
was a conflict with large casualties, a large percentage
of the residents survived, often sent to Majdanek or
through Treblinka II to camps in the East.

Lots of Belief is based on the presentations of
Icons that are accepted unSkeptically.
There is doubt that Nussbaum was the boy in the photo. Even Nussbaum wasn't certain.

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... n/boy.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
“I am not claiming anything – there’s no reward, he said. I didn’t ask for this honour. I think it’s me, but I can’t honestly swear to it. A million and a half Jewish children were told to raise their hands.”

Lastly, with the help of someone trained in photo- comparison, Dr K.R. Burns a forensic anthropologist at the University of Georgia, compared the famous photo, with a passport photo of Tsvi Nussbaum taken in 1945 said the following:

Having examined the two photographs, Dr Burns said, that although the mouth, nose and cheek are consistent, there is one important disparity- the ear lobes on the 1943 boy appear to be attached, whereas the earlobes of the 1945 boy are not attached.

This generic trait cannot change with age and the difference indicates the pictures are not the same boy.
Then there is this:
The picture shows I, as member of the Gestapo office in the Warsaw Ghetto, together with a group of SS members, am driving a large number of Jewish citizens out from a house. The group of Jewish citizens is comprised predominantly of children, women and old people, driven out of a house through a gateway, with their arms raised.

The Jewish citizens were then led to the so-called Umschlagplatz, from which they were transported to the extermination camp Treblinka.
But that statement was made some 24 years later, after his arrest, so I suppose its veracity might be questionable.
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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by Martin Brock » Sun May 03, 2009 11:31 am

Pyrrho wrote: There is doubt that Nussbaum was the boy in the photo. Even Nussbaum wasn't certain.
Of course, there is doubt.
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More central authorities conquer by dividing, imposing norms channeling the value of synergy toward themselves.

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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by Martin Brock » Sun May 03, 2009 11:43 am

Pyrrho wrote: I will not continue to participate if this becomes a "You, this," and "You, that" discussion.
Your personal perspective is relevant to your statements. "Horror" is an inherently subjective criteria, so you inject "you, this" and "you, that" into the discussion whether or not you're explicit about it.
Despite numerous recounts, the figure remains ~5.5 million Jews and several million other people.
You write this "~5.5 million" figure despite "recounts" suggesting 4 million and other figures. There is no "official figure" at all, only conventional wisdom. I expect more bias toward the conventional view of victors in any war, because that's the nature of history. What is your source for the figure?

My personal perspective, motivating my skepticism toward the conventional figure, is my essentially libertarian view that "victors write history". I don't deny Nazi atrocities and have no sympathy for Nazis or anti-Semites or racists more generally, and I acknowledge every well established horror of the Holocaust, but after years of browsing the debate at this forum and elsewhere, I haven't seen more persuasive evidence for the 6 million figure than for the 4 million figure, and you don't present the evidence here.

I do see a lot of personal attacks, but I see them from both sides of the debate. I don't see them from David particularly. The ego defense associated with these attacks motivates most of the debate, and launching an attack from the conventional wisdom side of the line is always easier.
Last edited by Martin Brock on Sun May 03, 2009 1:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by vanderpoel » Sun May 03, 2009 12:21 pm

David wrote:
Pyrrho wrote:True enough.
The point is that the icon of the little boy as a symbol of
"extermination" was incorrect.
Your point is nonsense.
The icon of the little boy as a symbol of "extermination" is the most famous icon
of the war. Maybe you have no clue what the word "icon" means.
Let me help you out: token, sign, representation, figure, image, metaphor, allegory.

It is a famous representation of one of the horrors of war and it is not to be
confused with evidence or reality of a crime. Whether or not the boy or any of the women survived is utterly irrelevant to the effectiveness of the image at the time.

Discrediting it some 60 years after the war does not alter the fact that it was a
symbol of extermination. Deal with it.
Lots of Belief is based on the presentations of Icons that are accepted unSkeptically.
Yeah duh, thatʻs why we use them and thatʻs why they work.
They are often reality based and often just effective as symbols.

A good example as a symbol for the Vietnam war is the Vietnam War Memorial.
Just because itʻs made of marble and no soldiers are actually killed or buried
at that location does not make it any less less of an icon or less powerful as a
symbol of the horrors of that war. :roll:
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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by Martin Brock » Sun May 03, 2009 1:05 pm

vanderpoel wrote: The icon of the little boy as a symbol of "extermination" is the most famous icon of the war.
I'm 47, and I don't remember ever seeing this picture before. Maybe I have seen it, but "most famous icon" seems a stretch. What authority declared this picture "most famous"?
It is a famous representation of one of the horrors of war and it is not to be confused with evidence or reality of a crime.
Well, it is evidence of a crime, at least of an abuse of human rights, but it's not all that horrible. I've seen far more horrible pictures of the Holocaust, not to mention Vietnam, Iraq and Palestine.
Whether or not the boy or any of the women survived is utterly irrelevant to the effectiveness of the image at the time.
David clearly doesn't dispute this fact.
Discrediting it some 60 years after the war does not alter the fact that it was a symbol of extermination. Deal with it.
But I don't see David trying to "discredit" the picture at all. He doesn't suggest that the picture is faked. He doesn't suggest that it's not a true depiction of a frightened, young boy raising his arms on some Nazi command with other Jews in Warsaw. What are you asking anyone to deal with?
Lots of Belief is based on the presentations of Icons that are accepted unSkeptically.
Yeah duh, thatʻs why we use them and thatʻs why they work.
This seems to be David's point.
A good example as a symbol for the Vietnam war is the Vietnam War Memorial.
It's certainly not a comparable example.
Just because itʻs made of marble and no soldiers are actually killed or buried at that location does not make it any less less of an icon or less powerful as a symbol of the horrors of that war. :roll:
It seems to me a very dubious symbol of the horrors of the war. The wall doesn't list a single Vietnamese child. You might as well tell me that a list of the names of fallen German soldiers is a good symbol of the horrors of W.W. II.
Last edited by Martin Brock on Sun May 03, 2009 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by Martin Brock » Sun May 03, 2009 1:16 pm

People associating freely respect norms of their choice, and relationships governed this way are necessarily interdependent.

More central authorities conquer by dividing, imposing norms channeling the value of synergy toward themselves.

"Every man for himself" is the prescription of a state, not a free community. A state protects the poor from the rich only in fairy tales.

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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by vanderpoel » Sun May 03, 2009 2:17 pm

vanderpoel wrote:The icon of the little boy as a symbol of "extermination" is the most famous icon of the war.
Martin Brock wrote:I'm 47, and I don't remember ever seeing this picture before. Maybe I have seen it, but "most famous icon" seems a stretch. What authority declared this picture "most famous"?
The very link that you obviously donʻt remember ever seeing before either: http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v14n2p7.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The ‘Warsaw Ghetto Boy’ By Mark Weber. It is probably the single most widely recognized and memorable Holocaust image of all: a frightened and apparently doomed young boy, his arms upraised, standing with other Warsaw ghetto Jews under the watch of an armed German soldier.

In a recent essay, Erwin Knoll, editor of the influential monthly The Progressive, aptly sums up the popular view of this photo:
This photograph, perhaps the most familiar Holocaust image, shows seven-year-old Tsvi Nussbaum as he raises his hands in Warsaw in 1943. After the war, Nussbaum moved to Israel, and then to the United States, where he worked as a physician in New York City.


“It is the photograph that has come to symbolize the Holocaust: a small Jewish boy, frightened eyes downcast, hands raised above his shoulders, surrounded by Nazi troops. This is the final roundup of Jews scheduled for execution during the Warsaw Ghetto uprising of 1943. More Jews, hands raised, can be seen in the background. We know as we stare at the photo that soon they will all be dead. The photo appears in archives and exhibitions, in magazine and newspaper articles about the Holocaust, in television documentaries and history books. By now I must have seen it hundreds of times …”

This photograph is one of several dozen included in the official SS report on the April-May 1943 German police Aktion against the Warsaw ghetto. / 2 In the decades since the end of the war, it has been reproduced millions of times in countless books, magazines and films, serving as a kind of “all purpose” Holocaust illustration. Enlargements of it have appeared at Holocaust exhibitions and displays in countries around the world.

Millions of people have been led to believe that the bewildered boy in this poignant photo was murdered shortly after this memorable image was preserved on film. “The photograph wrenches the heart,” The Washington Post has commented, “because it appears that the boy, like millions of Jews and others, is to die at the hands of the Nazis.”


What your age has to do with your argument is not clear to me, other then that you bringing it up seems like an argument of ignorance.
vanderpoel wrote:It is a famous representation of one of the horrors of war and it is not to be confused with evidence or reality of a crime.
Martin Brock wrote:Well, it is evidence of a crime, at least of an abuse of human rights, but it's not all that horrible. I've seen far more horrible pictures of the Holocaust, not to mention Vietnam, Iraq and Palestine.
No itʻs not evidence of a crime.
The fact that the boy has his hands raised is not a crime, certainly not in a war time
situation. It is not even evidence of an abuse of human rights.

Yes, itʻs not at all that horrible.
Congratulations that you have seen more horroble pictures. So have I and it has no
bearing on the argument youʻre making.
vanderpoel wrote:Whether or not the boy or any of the women survived is utterly irrelevant to the effectiveness of the image at the time.
Martin Brock wrote:David clearly doesn't dispute this fact.
Yes he does. David is discrediting the effectiveness and validity of this image:
"Belief in the Ugly Myth is based on the assertion that there was a single German policy toward all Jews in Europe. This assertion is the key to Belief. When individual examples are looked at, a different story emerges."
vanderpoel wrote:Discrediting it some 60 years after the war does not alter the fact that it was a symbol of extermination. Deal with it.
Martin Brock wrote:But I don't see David trying to "discredit" the picture at all. He doesn't suggest that the picture is faked. He doesn't suggest that it's not a true depiction of a frightened, young boy raising his arms on some Nazi command with other Jews in Warsaw. What are you asking anyone to deal with?
What donʻt you get about discrediting when David clearly states: "When individual examples are looked at, a different story emerges" referring to "the Ugly Myth"?
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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by Pyrrho » Sun May 03, 2009 3:51 pm

Martin Brock wrote:
Pyrrho wrote: I will not continue to participate if this becomes a "You, this," and "You, that" discussion.
Your personal perspective is relevant to your statements. "Horror" is an inherently subjective criteria, so you inject "you, this" and "you, that" into the discussion whether or not you're explicit about it.
I can't think of any way to address this comment, so I'll pass.
Despite numerous recounts, the figure remains ~5.5 million Jews and several million other people.
You write this "~5.5 million" figure despite "recounts" suggesting 4 million and other figures. There is no "official figure" at all, only conventional wisdom. I expect more bias toward the conventional view of victors in any war, because that's the nature of history. What is your source for the figure?
A few sources:

http://www.holocaustchronicle.org/holoc ... dices.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/h ... istics.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.holocaust-history.org/questi ... bers.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.ushmm.org/research/library/f ... opic=03#02" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
My personal perspective, motivating my skepticism toward the conventional figure, is my essentially libertarian view that "victors write history". I don't deny Nazi atrocities and have no sympathy for Nazis or anti-Semites or racists more generally, and I acknowledge every well established horror of the Holocaust, but after years of browsing the debate at this forum and elsewhere, I haven't seen more persuasive evidence for the 6 million figure than for the 4 million figure, and you don't present the evidence here.
Well, forum discussions aren't likely to contain the detailed work done by historians long prior to this. I'd recommend the local library or bookstore over the Internet any day.
I do see a lot of personal attacks, but I see them from both sides of the debate. I don't see them from David particularly. The ego defense associated with these attacks motivates most of the debate, and launching an attack from the conventional wisdom side of the line is always easier.
Humans is as humans does, I guess. I think debate and discussion are useful for introducing and arguing the relative merits of the available facts, different ideas, and different points of view--all, in my opinion, essential to critical thinking. I find the various divergences into personal issues to be essentially irrelevant.
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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by Martin Brock » Sun May 03, 2009 4:25 pm

Pyrrho wrote: A few sources:

http://www.holocaustchronicle.org/holoc ... dices.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The first source lists Auschwitz twice on the same page. The first list ("Death Camps (Poland)") gives Jewish deaths at "Auschwitz-Birkenau" as 1.1 to 1.6 million. The second ("Major Concentration and Labor Camps") gives Jewish deaths at "Auschwitz I" as 1.6 million.

If I add the figures in the first list, the sum is 3.7 million. The sum in the second list is 2.6 million. Strangely, the second list is more inclusive than the first.

Adding these two sums gives 6.3 million deaths, but I'm counting Auschwitz (at least) twice.

The source gives a summary figure under "Total Deaths from Nazi Genocidal Policies" for European Jews of 5.6 to 6.2 million, but it also gives 3 million Soviet prisoners of war and 3 million Polish Catholics. Three million Polish Catholics is a "genocide" (sic) of historic proportions that I rarely see discussed. Do you also consider this figure authoritative?

The first source doesn't support the figure. It only repeats the figure. I concede that the figure is often repeated.

I won't discuss the other sources specifically, but I will say that every time I look closely at these details, the numbers don't add up. That's not a denial of the Holocaust. I only question the 6 million figure. I don't know why the 6 million figure is so sacrosanct.
Well, forum discussions aren't likely to contain the detailed work done by historians long prior to this. I'd recommend the local library or bookstore over the Internet any day.
The net has some of the best research resources available and also some of the worst. Libraries and bookstores are no different. If the evidence is out there anywhere, I expect to find it on the net somewhere.
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More central authorities conquer by dividing, imposing norms channeling the value of synergy toward themselves.

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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by David » Sun May 03, 2009 5:18 pm

Martin Brock wrote:Yeah duh, thatʻs why we use them and thatʻs why they work.


This seems to be David's point.
Exactly.

Just like
resume wrote:though I realize the stories he related concerning the death-camps are anecdotal, they were vivid and horrifying. And if only a fraction of them were true, they lay waste to the deniers.
We have Resume seeing the horrible pictures of the camps at the end of the
War and mixing the images with an intentional German policy two or three
years earlier.
For most people, history is a confused story. Icons and mixed images
serve in the place of reality. A picture of twenty Polish inmates who died
of typhus in 1945 serves as evidence of a policy of killing French Jews with gas in
Birkenau in 1942.
Take the story of Anne Frank...a young girl sent to Auschwtiz with her family
who (contrary to the Story) was not killed, did not work and was finally
sent back to Germany where she tragically died of typhus. Anne Frank is
clear evidence that there was not a policy of murder at Auschwitz yet
Anne Frank has become an icon of "the Holocaust."
Icons vs. Reality

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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by Martin Brock » Sun May 03, 2009 6:03 pm

David wrote: Anne Frank is clear evidence that there was not a policy of murder at Auschwitz ...
She wasn't a victim of "murder" herself, because state policies killed her and statesmen define "murder".

"The Holocaust" is what we call the effect on Jews of the virulent anti-Semitism of the National Socialist German Workers Party party as it imposed ethnic cleansing, slave labor and other atrocities across Europe. Typhus epidemics at Auschwitz are part and parcel of the Holocaust, so Anne Frank was a victim of it. If she had died in a gas chamber, she might have suffered less, so I take little comfort in the fact that the Nazis shipped her back to Germany to die.
People associating freely respect norms of their choice, and relationships governed this way are necessarily interdependent.

More central authorities conquer by dividing, imposing norms channeling the value of synergy toward themselves.

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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by Pyrrho » Sun May 03, 2009 6:59 pm

Martin Brock wrote:
Pyrrho wrote: A few sources:

http://www.holocaustchronicle.org/holoc ... dices.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The first source lists Auschwitz twice on the same page. The first list ("Death Camps (Poland)") gives Jewish deaths at "Auschwitz-Birkenau" as 1.1 to 1.6 million. The second ("Major Concentration and Labor Camps") gives Jewish deaths at "Auschwitz I" as 1.6 million.

If I add the figures in the first list, the sum is 3.7 million. The sum in the second list is 2.6 million. Strangely, the second list is more inclusive than the first.

Adding these two sums gives 6.3 million deaths, but I'm counting Auschwitz (at least) twice.

The source gives a summary figure under "Total Deaths from Nazi Genocidal Policies" for European Jews of 5.6 to 6.2 million, but it also gives 3 million Soviet prisoners of war and 3 million Polish Catholics. Three million Polish Catholics is a "genocide" (sic) of historic proportions that I rarely see discussed. Do you also consider this figure authoritative?

The first source doesn't support the figure. It only repeats the figure. I concede that the figure is often repeated.

I won't discuss the other sources specifically, but I will say that every time I look closely at these details, the numbers don't add up. That's not a denial of the Holocaust. I only question the 6 million figure. I don't know why the 6 million figure is so sacrosanct.
I don't know that the 6 million figure is sacrosanct. The sources cited don't seem to claim that. The USHMM link at least cites various sources, so I tend to regard that one as more authoritative than others. They do state that there is likely to be variance.
Well, forum discussions aren't likely to contain the detailed work done by historians long prior to this. I'd recommend the local library or bookstore over the Internet any day.
The net has some of the best research resources available and also some of the worst. Libraries and bookstores are no different. If the evidence is out there anywhere, I expect to find it on the net somewhere.
I suppose...I personally find it difficult to sort through the copy-and-paste repetitions. I'm much more comfortable with books that have proper citations of sources.
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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by Saggy » Sun May 03, 2009 8:47 pm

Martin Brock wrote:[
She wasn't a victim of "murder" herself, because state policies killed her and statesmen define "murder".
This is utter nonsense. Why write such drivel?
Martin Brock wrote:"The Holocaust" is what we call the effect on Jews of the virulent anti-Semitism of the National Socialist German Workers Party party as it imposed ethnic cleansing, slave labor and other atrocities across Europe.
Try English. What is the sense of debating by changing the meaning of words as you go along. Answer, it is the only way you can pretend to defend an indefensible position.

The holocaust states that the Nazis tried to exterminate the European Jews. That degenerate lie has been disproved in this very thread, so, you produce your own dictionary with your own definitions and proceed to ignore reality to defend the grotesque slander of the Nazis and white European society.

BTW, maybe we should explore the reasons for this 'virulent anti-semitism' as it existed in Nazi Germany, and countless other countries. The role of the Jews in WW II, the role of the Jewish bankers in the Versailles treaty, etc., the nature of Judaism itself.

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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by David » Sun May 03, 2009 10:05 pm

Martin Brock wrote:She wasn't a victim of "murder" herself, because state policies killed her and statesmen define "murder".
My point is not to define murder but to show that she was not
gassed...contrary to what the Ugly Myth would claim.

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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by Martin Brock » Mon May 04, 2009 4:45 am

Pyrrho wrote: I don't know that the 6 million figure is sacrosanct. The sources cited don't seem to claim that. The USHMM link at least cites various sources, so I tend to regard that one as more authoritative than others. They do state that there is likely to be variance.
It seems less and less sacrosanct all the time, and that's the point. If "up to 3 million" deaths in Poland is two million, the first USHMM count is four million. All of the zeros in these estimates suggest that the counts are not precise, so I must wonder how accurate they are.

When I read in the second table that a minimum of 50,000 Jews died Austria and that 50,000 is also the maximum number, I can only laugh. No self-respecting statistician would construct this table, so it clearly wasn't constructed by a self-respecting statistician. These numbers have "guesswork" written all over them, and I just can't expect conservative guessing in this context.
People associating freely respect norms of their choice, and relationships governed this way are necessarily interdependent.

More central authorities conquer by dividing, imposing norms channeling the value of synergy toward themselves.

"Every man for himself" is the prescription of a state, not a free community. A state protects the poor from the rich only in fairy tales.

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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon May 04, 2009 5:46 am

Pyrrho wrote:That the boy in the photo was sent to a death camp seems like a reasonable assumption, considering what else is in the Stroop Report.

http://www.holocaust-history.org/works/ ... img014.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Stroop was in anti-partisan work before Warsaw. This explains the French and foreign equipment he was using in Warsaw, as german anti-partisan trains exclusively used captured equipment and were on the same rail guage as Warsaw. I pity any freedom fighter caught by a nazi anti-partisan work group. Those poor children.....

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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by Martin Brock » Mon May 04, 2009 12:05 pm

vanderpoel wrote: What your age has to do with your argument is not clear to me, other then that you bringing it up seems like an argument of ignorance.
The relevance is clear from the statement. You simply ignore it.
No itʻs not evidence of a crime.
The fact that the boy has his hands raised is not a crime, certainly not in a war time
situation. It is not even evidence of an abuse of human rights.
You and I have a different understanding of "human rights abuse".
Yes, itʻs not at all that horrible.
Congratulations that you have seen more horroble pictures. So have I and it has no
bearing on the argument youʻre making.
Possibly, it has no bearing on the argument you're making. It has a bearing on the argument I'm making. Apparently, you can't distinguish the two.
Yes he does. David is discrediting the effectiveness and validity of this image:
No. He's not disputing the effectiveness of the image, and he explicitly says so above. He's not disputing its validity either. He's disputing what he says is a popular conclusion drawn from the picture that turned out to be false, i.e. that the boy pictured was soon to die. David asserts that the picture effectively conveyed a falsehood to many people. He doesn't deny that the picture depicts what it seems to depict on its face, and he doesn't deny the wider role it played historically. He denies that the boy ultimately died, and he notes that many historical sources present the picture otherwise.
What donʻt you get about discrediting when David clearly states: "When individual examples are looked at, a different story emerges" referring to "the Ugly Myth"?
I don't use this "Ugly Myth" language myself, but I don't get what you assert here, because your assertion is false. You aren't interested in David's point about the historical facts. You're only interested in presenting yourself as holier than David and ultimately holier than Hitler. Being holier than Hitler just doesn't impress me. Practically everyone is holier than Hitler, even Saggy.
People associating freely respect norms of their choice, and relationships governed this way are necessarily interdependent.

More central authorities conquer by dividing, imposing norms channeling the value of synergy toward themselves.

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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by Saggy » Mon May 04, 2009 12:30 pm

Pyrrho wrote: I don't know that the 6 million figure is sacrosanct.

While I cannot vouch for the sanctity of the 6 million figure, I can assure you that it does have a long tradition, being the number of victims of the Holocaust that befell the Jews in World War One, see for example this article from 1919 describing a Holocaust of the Jews with six million victims published in the Jewish press of the day ....

http://www.codoh.com/incon/incrucifix.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by icesterftl » Mon May 04, 2009 4:38 pm

Saggy wrote:
Pyrrho wrote: I don't know that the 6 million figure is sacrosanct.

While I cannot vouch for the sanctity of the 6 million figure, I can assure you that it does have a long tradition, being the number of victims of the Holocaust that befell the Jews in World War One, see for example this article from 1919 describing a Holocaust of the Jews with six million victims published in the Jewish press of the day ....

http://www.codoh.com/incon/incrucifix.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
70 million vanished in result of Jewish invention called Communisms, invention by the three stooges called marks, engels and lenin".
lenin invented and perfected concentration camps.

Why are You (Jews) complaining that your own invention back fired in your face?

icesterftl

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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by Martin Brock » Mon May 04, 2009 5:38 pm

icesterftl wrote:Why are You (Jews) complaining that your own invention back fired in your face?
This is the sort of moronic group-think that undermines revisionists like David who try to avoid it. One Jew dreams up some terrible policy, and you blame The Jews generally. You don't similarly blame The Germans for Marxism, though Marx was also a German and not a religious Jew at all.

"What is the secular basis of Judaism? Practical need, selfishness. What is the secular cult of the Jew? Haggling. What is his secular god? Money. Well then, an emancipation from haggling and money, from practical, real Judaism would be the ... emancipation of our age." - On the Jewish Question

Guess who wrote that?

Karl Marx was one of You.
People associating freely respect norms of their choice, and relationships governed this way are necessarily interdependent.

More central authorities conquer by dividing, imposing norms channeling the value of synergy toward themselves.

"Every man for himself" is the prescription of a state, not a free community. A state protects the poor from the rich only in fairy tales.

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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by Saggy » Mon May 04, 2009 6:34 pm

Martin Brock wrote: One Jew dreams up some terrible policy, and you blame The Jews generally. You don't similarly blame The Germans for Marxism, though Marx was also a German and not a religious Jew at all.
There are plenty of connections between stateless Jews and communist Russia, Winston Churchill wrote an interesting essay on the subject. But it's a little off topic here.

It is relevant though, as the communist revolution in Russia was accompanied by an attempted Jewish led communist revolution in Germany, which just happened to be fighting WW I at the time. This is probably (I don't know much about this, would like to) is the initial source of Hitler's and the Nazis' anti-semitism.

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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by Martin Brock » Mon May 04, 2009 7:21 pm

Saggy wrote: It is relevant though, as the communist revolution in Russia was accompanied by an attempted Jewish led communist revolution in Germany, which just happened to be fighting WW I at the time. This is probably (I don't know much about this, would like to) is the initial source of Hitler's and the Nazis' anti-semitism.
This letter purports to be Hitler's first antisemitic writing. He writes in 1919, after the war. He doesn't say a word about Communism. On the contrary, he's all about Jewish "striving after money and power".

By 1925, Hitler is discussing the "Jewish doctrine of Marxism". Antisemitism, not anti-Marxism, seems to be the constant in his thinking.
People associating freely respect norms of their choice, and relationships governed this way are necessarily interdependent.

More central authorities conquer by dividing, imposing norms channeling the value of synergy toward themselves.

"Every man for himself" is the prescription of a state, not a free community. A state protects the poor from the rich only in fairy tales.

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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by Saggy » Mon May 04, 2009 8:00 pm

Martin Brock wrote: This letter purports to be Hitler's first antisemitic writing. He writes in 1919, after the war. He doesn't say a word about Communism. On the contrary, he's all about Jewish "striving after money and power".

By 1925, Hitler is discussing the "Jewish doctrine of Marxism". Antisemitism, not anti-Marxism, seems to be the constant in his thinking.
Thanks. Very interesting.

Clearly he identifies Jews with Marxism. No surprise there, that is difficult to avoid.

Do you know what he wrote in Mein Kampf?

.... I see the second link is sourced to Mein Kampf .... anything else ?????????
Last edited by Saggy on Mon May 04, 2009 9:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by David » Mon May 04, 2009 9:37 pm

Martin Brock wrote: He's not disputing the effectiveness of the image, and he explicitly says so above. He's not disputing its validity either. He's disputing what he says is a popular conclusion drawn from the picture that turned out to be false, i.e. that the boy pictured was soon to die. David asserts that the picture effectively conveyed a falsehood to many people.
Thank you Martin- You say it better that I did myself.
The role of icons and images in the creation of popular "history"
is an interesting topic.

For example, Pyrrho says that the 6 million figure is not sacrosant. He
is right in discussions among scholars (who generally have reduced it)
But the 6 million figure has a remarkable durability in the media and
with the public. I think that the 6,000,000 is another icon.
remarka

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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by icesterftl » Mon May 04, 2009 9:41 pm

Martin Brock wrote:
icesterftl wrote:Why are You (Jews) complaining that your own invention back fired in your face?
This is the sort of moronic group-think that undermines revisionists like David who try to avoid it. One Jew dreams up some terrible policy, and you blame The Jews generally. You don't similarly blame The Germans for Marxism, though Marx was also a German and not a religious Jew at all.

"What is the secular basis of Judaism? Practical need, selfishness. What is the secular cult of the Jew? Haggling. What is his secular god? Money. Well then, an emancipation from haggling and money, from practical, real Judaism would be the ... emancipation of our age." - On the Jewish Question

Guess who wrote that?

Karl Marx was one of You.
Yes, but the question is not the love for money and wealth.
It is how one would come to a possession of such.
Earn, inherit, win, extort, imbeasle, still, etc.
Ones the real evidence is compared the problem is clear.
And it has nothing to do with religion.
What is expected is fair play. What is evident is the opposite.

icesterftl

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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon May 04, 2009 11:25 pm

icesterftl wrote: 70 million vanished in result of Jewish invention called Communisms, invention by the three stooges called marks, engels and lenin".
lenin invented and perfected concentration camps.
How quaint. A complete idiot has joined us.

Karl Marx did not invent the concentration camp. Karl Mark toured english factories and wrote books in pubs and home in Germany in the 19th century. Lenin wasn't even in Russia when the revolution started and had to be smuggled into Russia by Germany. Lenin died within 8 years and did not set up concentration camps either. The first concentration camps are British and were established in the Boer war. The russian gulag system of the 50s was based on the 101 law introduced by the Czar50 years before communism.

Why are You (Jews) complaining that your own invention back fired in your face? icesterftl
I think this idiotic comment means "Jews should not complain because communist jews "invented" concentration camps". This is the most idiotic, stupid and baseless comment I have read for a long time. The communists were not jews. Communists did not invent concentration camps. The Nazi camps were a system of both labour and termination which was somewhat unique in history.

Are you a holocaust revisionist icesterftl?

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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by Pyrrho » Mon May 04, 2009 11:34 pm

No namecalling, please.
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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon May 04, 2009 11:50 pm

Saggy wrote: There are plenty of connections between stateless Jews and communist Russia, Winston Churchill wrote an interesting essay on the subject. But it's a little off topic here.
So what, the second largest NAZI party was in America at the outbreak of WWII. Should I avoid all American as they are "tainted" by national socialism by "Connection".

I
Saggy wrote: It is relevant though, as the communist revolution in Russia was accompanied by an attempted Jewish led communist revolution in Germany, which just happened to be fighting WW I at the time. This is probably (I don't know much about this, would like to) is the initial source of Hitler's and the Nazis' anti-semitism.
Rosa Luxembourg and Karl Leibknecht were a "jewish" led communist movement? I think you are refering to their "sparticist party" which was not jewish in the slightest. Why do you think it was a "jewish" movement? It was tied to the SDP that still exists today as a christian party. Members of the Friekorps killed Red Rosa and Karl, were charged and went to prison. Have you got anything that suggests this was a jewish organisation? ( The International Sparticists still exist and are a "stalinist" as they follow Red Rosa's view, also shared by Stalin, that communism is a state by state revolution and not a "Marxist" workers revolution that overflows borders.

As for The Sparticists trying to end WWI, so they bloody well should have! WWI was the most stupid war ever with no end goal. It just had "sides" trying to bleed white the youth of the other side. There were no "baddies" in WWI unlike WWII.

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Re: Warsaw Ghetto Icons vs. Reality

Post by Saggy » Tue May 05, 2009 12:08 am

Matthew Ellard wrote: I think you are refering to their "sparticist party" which was not jewish in the slightest. Why do you think it was a "jewish" movement? It was tied to the SDP that still exists today as a christian party. Members of the Friekorps killed Red Rosa and Karl, were charged and went to prison. Have you got anything that suggests this was a jewish organisation?
Funny you should ask ......

http://www.h-net.org/~german/gtext/kais ... tler1.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

For example.... Hitler on the Social Democrats ....

"I talked my tongue sore and my throat hoarse and thought that I must succeed in convincing them of the harmfulness of their Marxist insanity. In fact, I achieved just the opposite. It seemed as though the mounting insight into the nihilistic effect of Social Democratic theories and their realization only served to strengthen them in their determination."
Matthew Ellard wrote: There were no "baddies" in WWI unlike WWII.
WW I was an imperial war, just like the ones before it, and just like the ones since. The German Jews, excuse me, sparticists, were fighting against Germany ..... that's the rub ....