Is there one credible Jewish eyewitness?

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Saggy
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Re: Is there one credible Jewish eyewitness?

Post by Saggy » Sun Aug 17, 2008 12:58 pm

Martin Brock wrote: if you're routinely delousing people in a delousing chamber to prevent infection, particularly people in the poorest health, if many of these people are dying during or soon after a trip to the chamber, if these people are then being cremated, then everything this woman says she observed would have been occurring.


Is this a joke? Do you know anything at all about the holohoax? They did not delouse persons in the fumigation chambers, they deloused clothes. The fumigation rooms still exist at Auschwitz. No one has ever claimed persons were gassed in them. They are too small. They contain special equipment for producing and distributing the gas, and for exhausting the room. They are NOT shown to visitors. Instead visitors are shown a hoax 'gas chamber', that is a room in a crematorium that is big enough to pretend is a 'gas chamber' for persons. If you want to persist with this idiocy we'll just chalk you up as a shill. Big surprise.

I'll be generous and assume you'd actually like to learn something about the fumigation rooms and the Nazis efforts to combat typhus, see them in this video tour of Auschwitz ...

http://www.codoh.com/gcgv/gcgvcole.html

And of course we're still waiting on our credible Jewish eyewitness.

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Re: Is there one credible Jewish eyewitness?

Post by Martin Brock » Sun Aug 17, 2008 6:09 pm

Saggy wrote:No one has ever claimed persons were gassed in them.


No one claims that people were gassed in rooms that were too small to gas people. Many who where there and subsequent investigators, and the camp's commandant in testimony given repeatedly and never repudiated even in the days immediately preceding his execution, claim that people were gassed in other rooms using the same delousing chemicals. Larger chambers existed, so small chambers for delousing clothing are irrelevant. Camp officials obviously used the resources available to them for everything they did.

But because any one of these people could be lying or mistaken for any number of reasons, you assume that all of them are lying or mistaken, because you're a zealous believer in a particular version of events.

I've seen the David Cole video and discussed it in this forum. He makes a persuasive that Chamber I is a museum prop. The proprietors of the museum concede that the chimneys on the roof were added after the liberation, though they claim that the chimneys are reproductions of chimneys that were removed prior to the liberation. This story seemed contrived to me when I heard it, but Meyerson's testimony doesn't seem contrived, and she was there. Piper wasn't there, Cole wasn't there, and you weren't there.
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Re: Is there one credible Jewish eyewitness?

Post by Saggy » Mon Aug 18, 2008 12:09 am

Martin Brock wrote:I've seen the David Cole video and discussed it in this forum.


Why am I not surprised. So, you knew what you were posting ("if you're routinely delousing people in a delousing chamber to prevent infection") was idiotic garbage, and still you posted it. Again, I am not surprised.

Diversion over. Still waiting on our one credible Jewish eyewitness to the holohoax.

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Re: Is there one credible Jewish eyewitness?

Post by Martin Brock » Mon Aug 18, 2008 1:26 am

Saggy wrote:Why am I not surprised. So, you knew what you were posting ("if you're routinely delousing people in a delousing chamber to prevent infection") was idiotic garbage, and still you posted it. Again, I am not surprised.


Nothing surprises you, because you interpret every statement in terms of some preconceived notion of what must be true.

A large room used to delouse people (or to kill them) by exposing them to Zyklon B would reasonably be called a "delousing chamber", if the intent was not to kill the people inside or if their possible deaths were a secondary consideration. No law of nature limits use of this pair of words to small chambers used to delouse clothing. Only your zeal for your conclusion limits the usage this way.

Of course, the camp's commandant simply called these rooms "gas chambers" when he detailed the mass killing of Jews, but he must have been lying, even days before his execution, because he was tortured months earlier. Only this conclusion fits your assumption, so only this conclusion is conceivable to you.

It's possible as Hoess said that Jews were simply exterminated systematically, and not euthanized or treated for typhus with the few contrived means available, and it's also possible that no Jews ever died this way. I don't pretend to know what happened with anything like your certitude.

I know far more certainly that Jews were rounded up by the millions and imprisoned in these camps in cramped, unsanitary quarters with inadequate nutrition and worked severely, and I know these conditions could hardly be a better breeding ground for disease and death, and I know the Nazis hated Jews with a passion simply for being Jews, because they made no secret of it. They positively reveled in it in fact.
People associating freely respect norms of their choice, and relationships governed this way are necessarily interdependent.

More central authorities conquer by dividing, imposing norms channeling the value of synergy toward themselves.

"Every man for himself" is the prescription of a state, not a free community. A state protects the poor from the rich only in fairy tales.

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Re: Is there one credible Jewish eyewitness?

Post by Saggy » Mon Aug 18, 2008 2:07 am

Martin Brock wrote:
Nothing surprises you,



Nothing you've said surprises me because I've seen this sort of degenerate idiocy time and time again.

I've seen this particular bit of degenerate idiocy here: PBS had a show on the Irving trial and have a website on the show here ..

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/holocaust/

It contains the following statement ...

"To back up his claim that the Nazis used Auschwitz's gas chambers only to fumigate corpses, reputed Holocaust denier David Irving relied on research that experts maintain was flawed."

There is no lie too absurd for the Zionists.
Last edited by Saggy on Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is there one credible Jewish eyewitness?

Post by David » Mon Aug 18, 2008 3:34 am

Martin Brock wrote:but Meyerson's testimony doesn't seem contrived, and she was there. Piper wasn't there, Cole wasn't there, and you weren't there.


Fortunately for Skeptical minds, the documents, photographs and much of the structures remain and can be examined and the testimony of individuals weighed against the other evidence. I've been there and been in all the alleged
gas chambers except the two "Bunkers". Block 11, Krema I and II are
in complete to almost complete state while Krema III, IV and V are
heavily damaged, with only the floor and some walls existent.

It would have been physically impossible or extremely unlikely that the
morgue rooms or Block 11 could have been used as gas chambers on any sort
of regular basis. Either there was no way to introduce zyklon into the room,
and/or there was no way to extract the gas. The design of the buildings and the rooms, the other uses of the Krema buildings, the evolution of the design, the placement in the camp all are powerful circumstantial evidence that no gassing
took place in any of the above 6 buildings.

Whether they are Jewish, German, Polish the credibility of a witness needs to be weighed against other evidence to be reasonably discussed.
Here the Believers do have numerous witnesses but the Revisionists
have the physical, photographic, and documentary evidence solidly on
their side.

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Re: Is there one credible Jewish eyewitness?

Post by Saggy » Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:12 am

David wrote:Here the Believers do have numerous witnesses


If there is one credible Jewish eyewitness provide his/her name and if possible a link to their 'testimony' and a synopsis.

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Re: Is there one credible Jewish eyewitness?

Post by Anchor of Life » Mon Aug 18, 2008 3:29 pm

Saggy wrote:If there is one credible Jewish eyewitness provide his/her name and if possible a link to their 'testimony' and a synopsis.


Renée Firestone
http://www.lclark.edu/~jsu/firestonebiography.html

Elie Wiesel
http://www.eliewieselfoundation.org/eliewiesel.aspx
"This hope is a strong and trustworthy anchor for our souls." (Hebrews 6:19)

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Re: Is there one credible Jewish eyewitness?

Post by David » Mon Aug 18, 2008 3:46 pm

Saggy wrote:David wrote:
Here the Believers do have numerous witnesses


If there is one credible Jewish eyewitness provide his/her name and if possible
a link to their 'testimony' and a synopsis.


Whether a witness is credible is different from the question of whether the
testimony is "evidence." The fact is that most people and many courts
have accepted the "confessions" and "eye witnessing" as evidence, found it
credible and then gone on to hang defendants based on it.

For example, Elie Wiesel offers his testimony of baby bonfires etc.
as evidence. Most people accept it. I find may find the stories absurd
and sick on first impression but how does does one disprove a tale that is
believed by other people?
As Martin Brock might say, "He was there. You were not."
I don't think that just scoffing will win many arguments.


People remember stories that are filled with sex, horror,
and gold. Any propagandist knows this and that is exactly what the
Ugly Myth tales are filled with. A good propagandist avoids details that
can be checked (dates and times of important people for example) and
gives the false impression of detail on facts that cannot be checked,
how gold was ripped from teeth, how beautiful naked maidens were
made to parade around, how there were suitcases full of diamonds, how
bodies sizzle and pop on the bon fires.
The horror tales are meant to create images and icons for the masses.

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Re: Is there one credible Jewish eyewitness?

Post by Martin Brock » Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:22 pm

David wrote:People remember stories that are filled with sex, horror, and gold. Any propagandist knows this and that is exactly what the Ugly Myth tales are filled with.


It's what the popular accounts are filled with. That popular media emphasize these stories is no evidence of a conspiracy to paint the historical picture this way. If it were, then all of history is such a conspiracy. The Itzkowitz story could be exaggerated and filtered through many other accounts he's heard since, but that the human mind operates this way is no evidence that Itzkowitz fabricated the story from whole cloth, that he never built any heavy, tightly sealed door, that he never saw people herded into a room or children handed to the adults already inside or men wearing masks dropping something into the room and so on.

But I'm not so concerned with the precise details of how so many people died in these camps. Many did die. If six million were systematically exterminated in gas chambers, then unless the total Jewish death toll is much higher, I can only wonder how so many others escaped death from other causes. You say you've seen five crematoria in a single camp yourself.

Regardless of how anyone died or how many died, millions were dispossessed and enslaved in these camps for the crime of being Jewish, because the Nazis embraced a virulently antisemitic ideology. This historical fact is extremely well established. The Nazi platform is explicit about it, their leader proclaims his hatred loudly in his autobiography and in countless speeches. Kristallnacht can't be so easily dismissed, and the Nuremberg laws are a matter of public record.

I'd take Saggy more seriously if he addressed these facts. He wants the world to accept his personal sense of "credibility" and dismiss every eyewitness account as he does, but avoiding the fact that millions of European Jews were systematically persecuted and subjected to inhuman cruelty by the Nazi war machine, regardless of how they died, could hardly be less credible.
Last edited by Martin Brock on Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:35 pm, edited 3 times in total.
People associating freely respect norms of their choice, and relationships governed this way are necessarily interdependent.

More central authorities conquer by dividing, imposing norms channeling the value of synergy toward themselves.

"Every man for himself" is the prescription of a state, not a free community. A state protects the poor from the rich only in fairy tales.

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Re: Is there one credible Jewish eyewitness?

Post by Saggy » Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:32 pm

David wrote:For example, Elie Wiesel offers his testimony of baby bonfires etc.


No, not a bonfire. Wiesel testifies that adult Jews were thrown into one burning PIT and that Jewish children were thrown into another burning PIT. This is absurd on its face (no fool tries to burn anything in a pit).

David wrote:I don't think that just scoffing will win many arguments.


Read my discussion of Itzkowitz's testimony. Is it nothing but scoffing? Give me a break. Scoffing at absurdities, like throwing babies into burning pits, passing babies overhead to pack them in, tearing babies "in half", etc., is appropriate when there is not a shred of evidence, and is all that is required. But, I hope that I've shown in the discussion of Itzkowitz above that there is considerably more that can be done to determine if a proposed 'eyewitness' is credible.

David wrote:A good propagandist avoids details that
can be checked (dates and times of important people for example) and
gives the false impression of detail on facts that cannot be checked,


Just so, and the good propagandist avoids absurdities, like burning bodies in pits. So what I'm claiming is that the Jewish eyewitnesses were not even good propagandists and their 'testimony' collapses immediately on critical assessment. Unfortunately for the holohoaxers, there is apparently a tendency to over do phantasmagoria, hence the 'factual details' like the door with three bolts, the red cross on the trucks, etc., and the absurdities.

Now, if you can suggest a Jewish eyewitness who is a good propagandist and whose 'testimony' cannot be easily refuted, let's have the name.
Last edited by Saggy on Mon Aug 18, 2008 6:16 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Is there one credible Jewish eyewitness?

Post by Saggy » Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:38 pm

Anchor of Life wrote:Renée Firestone
Elie Wiesel


I'm not familiar with Firestone's testimony and it is not included in your link. So, more info is needed.z

Wiesel is a witness that there was NO holohoax. He was a prisoner at Auschwitz for one year and wrote a book about it, "Night". He never mentions gas chambers. Recall that the Jews were supposedly told the gas chambers were shower rooms to get them to willingly enter the rooms. You can use the Amazon.com Search Inside the Book feature to verify that Weisel writes about taking showers, for the express purpose of disinfection, on SIX separate occasions. There is no mention WHATEVER of gas chambers. The gas chambers are a complete fantasy, and Weisel's book is testimony to that FACT.

Wiesel is a credible witness that there were no gas chambers at Auschwitz.

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Re: Is there one credible Jewish eyewitness?

Post by Martin Brock » Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:42 pm

Saggy wrote:Now, if you can suggest a Jewish eyewitness who is a good propagandist and whose 'testimony' cannot be easily refuted, let's have the name.


Here you're reasonably clear that even if an eyewitness passes every conceivable test of "credibility", you'll still dismiss him as a "good propagandist", so the exercise is pointless.
People associating freely respect norms of their choice, and relationships governed this way are necessarily interdependent.

More central authorities conquer by dividing, imposing norms channeling the value of synergy toward themselves.

"Every man for himself" is the prescription of a state, not a free community. A state protects the poor from the rich only in fairy tales.

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Re: Is there one credible Jewish eyewitness?

Post by Monster » Mon Aug 25, 2008 1:50 am

Saggy wrote:Is there one credible Jewish eyewitness to the holocaust, that is, the mass killing of Jews in Nazi gas chambers? And if there is, what is his/her name? Where is his/her account available? Can you provide a synopsis?

Acknowledgment: this topic is a variation of one suggested by Focus.

Yes, there is! The book "Night" was written by a Holocaust survivor.
Listening twice as much as you speak is a sign of wisdom.

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Re: Is there one credible Jewish eyewitness?

Post by brauneyz » Mon Aug 25, 2008 3:19 am

Uh, oh, Phlegmak, you must not have read the whole thread before jumping in. Prepare for the onslaught. :lol:

Saggy believes Elie Wiesel is FOS! But it's always fun to see some innocent stumble in and try to make sense of this mess. Even if you were an 80 yr. old Jewish survivor who personally witnessed the mass the destruction of your family, Saggy will discount you as not credible.

Poof, be gone!
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Re: Is there one credible Jewish eyewitness?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Aug 25, 2008 5:15 am

brauneyz wrote:Uh, oh, Phlegmak, you must not have read the whole thread before jumping in. Prepare for the onslaught.


If you read the thread on "websites" you will see that Saggy dismissed the word Orthodox as "too jewish". Therefore all you need to find is some non-jewish, jewish eye witnesses and Saggy will be happy. Come to think of it only a person who has experienced death would understand what they were seeing, so we need to find some non-jewish, jewish, dead people who are able to give living witness statements. This should make Saggy happy. Then again anyone who was at a camp is going to be prejudice against the camps if the holocaust never happened. Therefore we need a non-jewish, jewish, dead, living witness who was never there and saw everything. This should make Saggy very happy and he will probably win this round for sure.

Brauneyz is right. The arguments on this thread are complex and its best just to read for a while to get a feel for whats going on.

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Re: Is there one credible Jewish eyewitness?

Post by Saggy » Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:56 am

Phlegmak wrote:Yes, there is! The book "Night" was written by a Holocaust survivor.


Please scan back through the thread to see my comments on Weisel. If that doesn't disabuse you of the idea that he is a credible eyewitness to the holohoax, post again.

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Re: Is there one credible Jewish eyewitness?

Post by BillCerrato » Mon Aug 25, 2008 9:20 pm

Saggy is there anything else going on in your life other then the Jewish boogeyman that you think are out to get you?

I want everyone to realize that no matter what you say to these deniers, nothing will make them change their minds, because their mind is set that nothing can prove them wrong. They're just like creationists who believe in talking snakes, despite the evidence.

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Re: Is there one credible Jewish eyewitness?

Post by David » Mon Aug 25, 2008 10:03 pm

Martin Brock wrote:by Martin Brock on Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:22 pm

David wrote:
People remember stories that are filled with sex, horror, and gold. Any propagandist knows this and that is exactly what the Ugly Myth tales are filled with.


It's what the popular accounts are filled with. That popular media emphasize these stories is no evidence of a conspiracy to paint the historical picture this way. If it were, then all of history is such a conspiracy.


You raise several important points. Let me start with the first one-

And the first point there is that there is no "official history" of the Holocaust.
History is just a story people believe really happened. Holocaust
histories are a continuum from totally crazy to various "histories' told by various
professional historians. But it is incorrect to think that all professional
historians have a consistent story.
The most obvious gap is the difference between Intentionalism and
Functionalism. Another gap is over Gypsies. Some historians claim
that there was a program of extermination of Gypsies but most do not.
Gunther Lewy's book, Nazi Persecution of the Gypsies Oxford Press
(2000) is probably the best work in this field.

The genesis of the Myth was War time propaganda and the Nuremberg trials.
The original "history" was that the Nazis wanted to dominate the World and
wanted to exterminate all racial "undersirables", Slavs, Gypsies, Jews all
included. At that time some false evidence was created...(like bars of
human soap and false confessions) Some evidence was
a prosecutor's spin put on real documents and exaggerations of
real National Socialist policies. (The best propaganda is not made up
but builds on known facts and adds to them)

For the most part, educated people have dropped the idea that a
program of exterminating Gypsies and Slavs existed. the idea
that there was a program of exterminating Jews in vast
underground gas chambers still is common.

So, no conspiracy of historians but a lack of ability to winnow out the
effects of propaganda

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Re: Is there one credible Jewish eyewitness?

Post by jj » Mon Aug 25, 2008 10:07 pm

So, you guys wait until all the survivors are dead, and then ask why there are no "credible jewish eyewitness".

Talk about a transparent attempt to deceive!
Why does an infallable book have to be constantly revised?

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Re: Is there one credible Jewish eyewitness?

Post by landrew » Mon Aug 25, 2008 10:50 pm

jj wrote:So, you guys wait until all the survivors are dead, and then ask why there are no "credible jewish eyewitness".

Talk about a transparent attempt to deceive!

It's not about facts or evidence or eyewitness accounts...

Its about them trying to believe it never happened.

Don't worry, the world will never forget what happened; but they've already forgotten about the idiots who claim it never happened.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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Re: Is there one credible Jewish eyewitness?

Post by David » Tue Aug 26, 2008 3:57 am

Martin Brock wrote:the Nazis embraced a virulently antisemitic ideology. This historical fact is extremely well established. The Nazi platform is explicit about it, their leader proclaims his hatred loudly in his autobiography and in countless speeches. Kristallnacht can't be so easily dismissed, and the Nuremberg laws are a matter of public record.


Exactly, the National Socialists put their acts in the public record
from the Nuremberg Laws well through 1943.

The Believer theory is that there was a
secret, illegal, and unwritten conspiracy to kill all Jews, Gypsies,
and Slavs in vast underground gas chambers. The Believer "theory"
is that the few German in on the conspiracy used secret code words
to conceal their intent.
What the Germans did is, in fact, clearly on the record.

An example is the overwhelming evidence that the only policy of
the National Socialist emigration. We know this from the records.
Approximately 80% of German and Austrian Jews had already
emigrated by October 1941. And the train records for the
rest show exactly where they all went.