General Books/Reading Discussion

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:48 pm

The cool thing about the Himmler book is the sources. I actually like Longerich’s writing style on this one.
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:00 pm

>> Messages of Murder

I don't know how to explain this: the book's not especially exciting, it's pretty bland in a lot of ways - but it is indispensable. It has a great deal of factual information and much detail about the EGs, as seen via their reporting.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:09 pm

It’s on my list.

I said I wasn’t going to load myself down with a lot of books...yeah, that was just me lying to myself.

:D
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:40 pm

Here are some statistics in considering the issues raised in this thread. They come from Dumitru, The State, Antisemitism, and Collaboration in the Holocaust, pp 99-101, Before looking at the numbers, it’s important to understand how Dumitru contextualizes the developments that led to this picture.

Dumitru describes three main drivers for the changing national relations under early Soviet rule, especially the status of Jews and their relations to the state and other groups in society:

1) in the 1920s and 1930s the USSR “proved full equality of rights for its Jewish citizens.
2) the Soviet authorities not only suppressed and punished antisemitic actions and speech but actively tried to “deconstruct negative stereotypes” of Jews and to build among Soviet citizens a positive view of Jews, based on their integration into society and participation in “socialist construction”
3) the Soviet state practiced “affirmative action” and opened up opportunities for Jews in areas of the economy from which they’d been excluded during tsarist times (David Shneer’s book, Through Soviet Jewish Eyes, discusses this same development with regard to news and media professionals; Dumitru looks at the broader picture and discusses, along with professional occupations, working class and peasant roles into which Jews were recruited

Dumitru says that antisemitism didn’t go away - in fact, the empowerment of Jews itself caused some resentment and conflict - but that the authorities battled it constantly and had significant success in changing relationships during the 1920s and 1930s. She also makes clear that Jews were affected by famine, the purges, various shortages, and other difficulties caused by party and state, but concludes that, when it came to interethnic relations and antisemitism, the state’s measures brought progress in integrating Jews into the mainstream of Soviet life. Thus, “it is no surprise that the Jewish population, while divided on many issues, described themselves during that period as ‘inclined to accept the existing regime’ . . .” (p 138)

Image

Image

. . .

Image
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Jun 05, 2019 5:42 pm

Passed 50% on the Himmler book....
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:59 pm

50% of Longerich = 2.5x Dumitru LOL
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:13 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:59 pm
50% of Longerich = 2.5x Dumitru LOL
Going to pick up Longerich’s biography of Hitler? It’s just as long.
I’m seriously considering it.
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:14 pm

Note that I changed my signature......
:D
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:33 pm

I did notice :) . . . what I didn't notice was that Longerich's Hitler book had finally been translated: just pre-ordered it on Amazon for October delivery, when I'm back from Sweden in the fall, sweet . . . thanks for the heads up!
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:42 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:33 pm
I did notice :) . . . what I didn't notice was that Longerich's Hitler book had finally been translated: just pre-ordered it on Amazon for October delivery, when I'm back from Sweden in the fall, sweet . . . thanks for the heads up!
Anytime I can help out a fellow Hasbro employee.....
:lol:

Came across it by chance while tracking down other stuff he’s written.
I may bite the bullet and try his Holocaust book again.

As for his Hitler biography I will definitely purchase but it may wait.
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:45 pm

I may need it while I hang around waiting for Volker Ullrich to finish his Hitler biography.
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:50 pm

My recollection is that if you've read Himmler, you've (mostly) read Holocaust, as he recycles a lot of material from that book into Himmler.

As for Dolfy, I can't wait for vol II of Volker Ullrich's bio to go English (it was published in German last year, vol I was published in English about 3-4 years after the German publication IIRC).
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:50 pm

LOL cross posted!!!
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:04 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:50 pm
My recollection is that if you've read Himmler, you've (mostly) read Holocaust, as he recycles a lot of material from that book into Himmler.
It still might be worth the purchase. An electronic copy is cheap.
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:23 am

Going fast at this price, just 1 left!

Image
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Fri Jun 07, 2019 4:10 am

LOL, it’s mine!!!!!
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Fri Jun 07, 2019 6:51 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 5:42 pm
Passed 50% on the Himmler book....

Done!!!!!!!!!!!
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Fri Jun 07, 2019 6:52 pm

Now I’m not sure what to read next.
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jun 07, 2019 7:14 pm

moby dick? crime and punishment? the five volume history of auschwitz?
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Fri Jun 07, 2019 7:20 pm

You know, I was thinking I’d tackle Mattogno’s Einsatzgruppen book. I’m sure such a brilliant “historian” could teach me a lot.

:)
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Jun 09, 2019 5:32 am

So, settled on a re-read of “Eyewitness to Genocide.” It’s a good time to open some threads the way I’ve been meaning to.
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Balmoral95 » Sun Jun 09, 2019 5:55 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 7:20 pm
You know, I was thinking I’d tackle Mattogno’s Einsatzgruppen book. I’m sure such a brilliant “historian” could teach me a lot.

:)

It will certainly get you to reconsider whether or not Onkel Joey's book barbecue in Berlin was such a bad idea after all...

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Goody67 » Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:11 am

I’ve got my eyes on a few more books:

Vasily Grossman‘s “Stalingrad”

Peter Fritzsche‘s “Iron Wind: Europe Under Hitler” and “Life and Death in the Third Reich”

Bernard Wasserstein‘s “On The Eve: The Jews of Europe before the Second World War“

I’m busy reading a novel at the moment and want to start reading one of those books after it.

Jeff, I’ve decided that I’m going to post a few reviews about a few books at the end of this week. By the way, I definitely recommend you to read “Anatomy of the SS State”.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:21 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 5:32 am
So, settled on a re-read of “Eyewitness to Genocide.” It’s a good time to open some threads the way I’ve been meaning to.
I find I am appreciating this more the 2nd time around.
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:36 pm

It's an important book, but there will be no need for you to open any threads on it, as blake's got that covered. :)
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:29 pm

LOL
I actually have a few topics going. I’m a busy guy...
:D
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:35 pm

Anyone have any thoughts about this one?

Randolph L. Braham
The Politics of Genocide: The Holocaust in Hungary, Condensed Edition
Abridged 2 Revised Ed Edition
ISBN-13: 978-0814326916, ISBN-10: 0814326919
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:45 pm

Naw. I've read it and it doesn't really convey Braham's arguments or research well at all.

Read the revised 2 volumes, published two or so years ago. They're excellent.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:06 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:45 pm
Naw. I've read it and it doesn't really convey Braham's arguments or research well at all.

Read the revised 2 volumes, published two or so years ago. They're excellent.

This?
The Holocaust in Hungary

LOL,, 112.00 for a new copy....gggrrrrr
Used is cheap, though.
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:07 pm

Huh..
Publisher East European Monographs
Publication date April 15, 1997
Language English, Hungarian
Product Dimensions 6.2 x 2 x 9.5 inches
Shipping Weight 2.65 pounds
Book length 800
ISBN-10 088033374X
ISBN-13 978-0880333740
Best Sellers Rank 7901925

Product description:
Description
Product description
This comprehensive look at the Holocaust in Hungary synthesizes the results of a wide range of investigations and evaluates the historical lessons of the Holocaust in one country. Part I contains historical overviews and introductions, Part II discusses historical antecedents in nine studies on historical, political-ideological, cultural, socioeconomic, and psychological factors that led to the destruction of Hungarian Jewry. Part III, on the Holocaust era itself, is comprised of twelve studies on the machinery of destruction. Part IV includes fifteen essays on the consequences of the Holocaust and on Jewish life in Hungary after the war.
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:11 pm

No. This: https://www.amazon.com/Politics-Genocid ... oks&sr=1-1

Series: East European Monographs
Hardcover: 1600 pages
Publisher: East European Monographs; third revised and updated edition edition (July 26, 2016)
Language: English
ISBN-10: 0880337117
ISBN-13: 978-0880337113
Product Dimensions: 6 x 2.2 x 9.5 inches
Shipping Weight: 3.2 pounds (View shipping rates and policies)

$126 and worth every penny
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:18 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:11 pm
No. This: https://www.amazon.com/Politics-Genocid ... oks&sr=1-1

Series: East European Monographs
Hardcover: 1600 pages
Publisher: East European Monographs; third revised and updated edition edition (July 26, 2016)
Language: English
ISBN-10: 0880337117
ISBN-13: 978-0880337113
Product Dimensions: 6 x 2.2 x 9.5 inches
Shipping Weight: 3.2 pounds (View shipping rates and policies)

$126 and worth every penny
Yeah...I’m not sure I can sneak that past the accountant....
:lol:
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:44 pm

The other one isn't worth it IMO. I'd say, explain the situation reasonably to the accountant - and throw a hissy fit - so you can purchase the real thing, or get something different on Hungary - or reread Hilberg on Hungary. But I wouldn't buy the abridged edition.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jun 13, 2019 2:30 pm

Dumitru, last remarks. I wrote that I'm not convinced. The book is quite interesting and makes a very strong case for the differences between areas ruled by the USSR during the interwar years and areas only incorporated into the USSR for the brief period after the outbreak of the war and Barbarossa. However, without my going through and detailing what others write about the former regions, I think Dumitru paints to rosy a picture about antisemitism and Jewish-gentile relations. Also, her argument that Soviet efforts to eradicate antisemitism and to build communal spirit across national groups doesn't grapple nearly enough with what we could call "Soviet methods," in short, with Stalinism and with authoritarian rule.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Goody67 » Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:57 pm

I bought a smallish bookcase to go next to the bookcase I have with books about the Eastern Front, especially Operation Barbarossa. I want to buy a few books about the Battle of Moscow or more specifically from the German aspect of the plan Operation Typhoon.

I already have read and own:

David Stahel's books, "Operation Barbarossa and Germany's Defeat in the East", "Operation Typhoon: Hitler's March on Moscow, October 1941" and "The Battle for Moscow". A new book of his titled "Retreat from Moscow: A New History of Germany's Winter Campaign, 1941-1942" is being released at the end of this year.

Philippe Naud 's "Operation Typhoon: The Assault on Moscow 1941".

Lev Lopukhovsky's "The Viaz’ma Catastrophe, 1941: The Red Army's Disastrous Stand against Operation Typhoon".

Michael Filippenkov's "Konev's Golgotha: Operation Typhoon Strikes the Soviet Western Front, October 1941".

Richard W. Harrison's "The Battle of Moscow 1941–1942: The Red Army’s Defensive Operations and Counter-offensive Along the Moscow Strategic Direction".

Rodric Braithwaite's "Moscow 1941: A City & Its People at War: A City and Its People at War".

Andrew Nagorsk's "The Greatest Battle: The Battle for Moscow, 1941-2".

Robert Forczyk's "Moscow 1941: Hitler's first defeat (Campaign)".

Albert Seaton's "The Battle for Moscow".

Any new book titles will be greatly appreciated.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat Jun 15, 2019 11:33 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2015 4:48 pm


* Christopher Dillon, Dachau & the SS: A Schooling in Violence - this is a study of the SS at Dachau, the Dachau model, and the ideology and group dynamics among the Deaths Head units, fits very nicely with Theweleit's still-groundbreaking but more general Male Fantasies, Theweleit's 2 volumes being among the best things I've read on our painful topic
I’m also looking at this at some point.
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Denying-History » Sun Jun 16, 2019 12:54 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 11:33 pm
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2015 4:48 pm


* Christopher Dillon, Dachau & the SS: A Schooling in Violence - this is a study of the SS at Dachau, the Dachau model, and the ideology and group dynamics among the Deaths Head units, fits very nicely with Theweleit's still-groundbreaking but more general Male Fantasies, Theweleit's 2 volumes being among the best things I've read on our painful topic
I’m also looking at this at some point.
Would probably recommend "Dachau, 1933-1945: The official history" (1975) by Paul Berben as supplementary reading.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jun 16, 2019 1:02 pm

Dillon's book is less focused on Dachau camp history than on the evolution of the Death's Head ranks (Dillon's book is really good) - along with Berben, to dig into the camp's history, the museum publishes a very nice, updated selection of documents: https://www.amazon.com/Dachau-Concentra ... ks&sr=1-14(comes with CD)

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Denying-History » Sun Jun 16, 2019 1:20 pm

Got locked out of my account for a while.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
Joseph E. Davies

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Denying-History » Sun Jun 16, 2019 1:46 pm

« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
Joseph E. Davies