Libertarians are Monsters

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Libertarians are Monsters

Post by Wordbird » Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:12 pm

Over the millennia, many ideologies have sprung up, and among them some that people generally consider evil.

Nazism comes to mind, but it's important to understand that people don't just murder Jews wholesale. They believed, because they were told (and this has strong modern parallels) that the reason they were starving was because of Jews.

Some people equate anti-immigration with Nazism, but those poor souls are deceived and confused, not Nazis. They believe, because they are told, that immigrants are disproportionately on welfare and draining the economy. They want to believe that they are better workers, so they do.

Some people even say conservatism is evil. Well, as it's packaged today, maybe. I doubt those who latch onto the ideology understand that, though.

Yet others claim communism and the starvation it often ends up causing is evil. Well, not how China does it. When you understand the simple fact that your resources are limited and feeding everyone means you must have population control, you're good there. Those who don't understand that are perhaps dangerously idealistic, but not evil. (Meh... if there's self-deception and/or willful ignorance about the resource issue, maybe this crosses into evil a bit.)

See a common thread? Well I do.

Wishful thinking.

Wishful thinking is more dangerous than religious thinking, precisely because religion doesn't change its dogma to accommodate feeling better about yourself. Atone, repent, be absolved, whatever... Rape is still a sin. Religion itself won't mould itself to your wish fulfillment, even if it is itself a major wish fulfillment about not having to die.

Most instances of evil are born out of simple wishful thinking:

"We're not starving because we fought a war and lost fairly! We would have won! The Jews are to blame, because it can't be us!"

"How does that Mexican non-citizen afford three kids, when I can't even afford one? She must be on welfare, because I work as hard as she does, damn it!"

It's hard to admit you suck. It's hard to admit that when you lose, the game was fair. It's even harder to stop fighting; to realise that you're trying to disenfranchise the legitimate winners, not fighting for what's right or fair. People avoiding that admission have caused almost all of the world's problems.

But there is one ideology that's pure, naked evil and isn't born out of lying to oneself.

Libertarianism.

I don't ask you to believe me that it is evil. I ask you to judge for yourself.

Libertarians are generally horrible people who have no principles. If they want taxes, their philosophy justifies that (for the programmes they want, of course). But if you want taxes, you're an evil statist tyrant trying to pick their pockets, because their money is theirs absolutely! They have rights!

On a libertarian forum, people are allowed to harass and demean others, because it's not aggression.

http://www.libertariansforum.com/cgi-bi ... 236859/1#1

http://www.libertariansforum.com/cgi-bi ... 216661/3#3

People pick on the weak, follow them and derail their topics, and otherwise stifle any sort of rational conversation.

But wait, if nasty, horrible trolls can say that, that means I can say whatever I want, right? I'd have total freedom. That's not so bad a tradeoff.

Nope.

If you think for a moment that this means you have free speech, you'd be wrong. Many members were banned from that site simply because they said the wrong thing.

This is because libertarians believe in absolute property rights. The owner of the forum can ban for any reason. It's his forum.

This means any so-called rules are irrelevant. The owner can choose to ignore them, as he wishes, and he can ban as he wishes, whether rules were broken or not. He has property rights!

This gets really scary when you realise that libertarians want most things privatised.

This means they want the world to be run like their forum.

I have never encountered an ideology so disgusting in my life.

Most of the evil in this world can be traced back to wishful thinking.

Libertarians just want to hurt others with impunity.

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Re: Libertarians are Monsters

Post by ElectricMonk » Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:57 pm

Plenty of people with libertarian leanings I know couldn't conceivably be described as evil.

Many of them are a special kind of naive, and tend to discount the importance of the birth-lottery, plain luck
and the fact that a company needs more workers than CEOs.

In my opinion, the only "real" Libertarians are Preppers.

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Re: Libertarians are Monsters

Post by landrew » Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:22 pm

Most ideologies I've seen contain a few good ideas mixed with garbage. Your choices are to start your own ideology, or drink the kool-aid and make yourself OK with one of the existing movements. Most sheeple do that.
Last edited by landrew on Fri Mar 29, 2019 10:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Libertarians are Monsters

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Mar 29, 2019 6:37 pm

Wordbird wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:12 pm
See a common thread? Well I do.

Wishful thinking.
Me too. Using labels and not thinking much at all.

I am "anti-immigration" because it depresses wages for those already here.

When I was a kiddie, Libertarian was mostly about supporting Free Speech, Drug Legalization, and Legalizing all other "victimless crimes" like prostitution. Still a good nexus of better thinking. Like everything else, they got off track when overtaken by the henchmen of the AlreadyTooRich and the philosophy turned their individual rights ethos to tax policy. The individual can be "supreme" only on an island of one.

Simple reality.....allowing all the labels to be a stretch goal to be compromised with all the other labels. No one label can work.
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Re: Libertarians are Monsters

Post by landrew » Fri Mar 29, 2019 10:44 pm

Wishful thinking yes, and also seeing the upside while ignoring the downside.
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Re: Libertarians are Monsters

Post by Gord » Sat Mar 30, 2019 1:14 am

ElectricMonk wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:57 pm
Plenty of people with libertarian leanings I know couldn't conceivably be described as evil.

Many of them are a special kind of naive--
Interesting; I'm reminded of a discussion I had with someone a long time ago about the nature of evil. There are some who consider evil to be a form of naiveté.

Of course, it implies the existence of such a thing as "the nature of evil". I'm not even sure where to begin with that.
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Re: Libertarians are Monsters

Post by Wordbird » Sat Mar 30, 2019 2:52 am

ElectricMonk wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:57 pm
Plenty of people with libertarian leanings I know couldn't conceivably be described as evil.

Many of them are a special kind of naive, and tend to discount the importance of the birth-lottery, plain luck
and the fact that a company needs more workers than CEOs.
No, seriously, they're evil. They are not naive. They don't actually believe competition will produce prosperity for all.

They know it will produce prosperity for a few and slavery for everyone else, and they want precisely that.

They hold inequality as a virtue. Not just the inequality of wealth, but the fact that money can buy the law. That's how it should work, they'll say. And they'll change their stance on every issue to favour the rich person.

If you don't believe me, go talk to them.
ElectricMonk wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:57 pm
In my opinion, the only "real" Libertarians are Preppers.
I also hold self-sufficiency in high esteem.

Ask libertarians what they think about it.

They despise it, because they can't have those people as slaves.

Go. talk. to. them.

http://www.libertariansforum.com/cgi-bi ... om/YaBB.pl

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Re: Libertarians are Monsters

Post by ElectricMonk » Sat Mar 30, 2019 3:18 am

Bird you are talking about armchair libertarians who read Ayn Rand and think they have some unique insight.

These aren't true libertarians, they are just lazy thinkers.

Intellectual Libertarians understand that for Libertarianism to work, you need a basic, unconditional aupport system for everyone so that people can enter into agreements actually free; because without this Libertarianism is indistinguishable from Hobbes' State of Nature, hence the need to be a Prepper to prosper.

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Re: Libertarians are Monsters

Post by landrew » Sat Mar 30, 2019 3:54 am

ElectricMonk wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 3:18 am
Bird you are talking about armchair libertarians who read Ayn Rand and think they have some unique insight.

These aren't true libertarians, they are just lazy thinkers.

Intellectual Libertarians understand that for Libertarianism to work, you need a basic, unconditional aupport system for everyone so that people can enter into agreements actually free; because without this Libertarianism is indistinguishable from Hobbes' State of Nature, hence the need to be a Prepper to prosper.
Yeah, it's like communism. It would work fine if everybody behaved a certain way...
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Re: Libertarians are Monsters

Post by Tom Palven » Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:46 pm

landrew wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 3:54 am
ElectricMonk wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 3:18 am
Bird you are talking about armchair libertarians who read Ayn Rand and think they have some unique insight.

These aren't true libertarians, they are just lazy thinkers.

Intellectual Libertarians understand that for Libertarianism to work, you need a basic, unconditional aupport system for everyone so that people can enter into agreements actually free; because without this Libertarianism is indistinguishable from Hobbes' State of Nature, hence the need to be a Prepper to prosper.
Yeah, it's like communism. It would work fine if everybody behaved a certain way...
Socialism, too, or is socialism different?
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
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Re: Libertarians are Monsters

Post by Wordbird » Sat Mar 30, 2019 2:13 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 3:18 am
Bird you are talking about armchair libertarians who read Ayn Rand and think they have some unique insight.

These aren't true libertarians, they are just lazy thinkers.

Intellectual Libertarians understand that for Libertarianism to work, you need a basic, unconditional support system for everyone so that people can enter into agreements actually free; because without this Libertarianism is indistinguishable from Hobbes' State of Nature, hence the need to be a Prepper to prosper.
That depends on what you mean by work.

Libertarians understand everything you said. Perfectly.

They want people to be enslaved to those with property.

Talk. to. them.
Tom Palven wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:46 pm
Socialism, too, or is socialism different?
All systems work well on a small scale and collapse on a large scale. Redistribution + population control is more sustainable than a free market.

It does not matter if you give people welfare. If you do it on condition that they don't make more dolees, that's not only sustainable, you're going to have less parasitism over time. So while your free market, AnCap dolees are getting smarter and smarter about how to manipulate charity out of people and otherwise force people to give ("You'd let my child starve?! I'll tell your boss and all your customers!") the dolees in the actual socialism are going the way of the dodo.

The trouble with most redistributionists is that they want it all: Total freedom and total support. You can't have it all.

If you think you can have it all, you'll get nothing.

If you understand you can't have it all, you can generally get what you want.

Libertarians are another animal altogether. They understand that a few people can have total freedom and total support. They want to be those people. They want absolute rights for them, and no rights for others.

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Re: Libertarians are Monsters

Post by landrew » Sat Mar 30, 2019 2:35 pm

Tom Palven wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:46 pm
landrew wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 3:54 am
ElectricMonk wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 3:18 am
Bird you are talking about armchair libertarians who read Ayn Rand and think they have some unique insight.

These aren't true libertarians, they are just lazy thinkers.

Intellectual Libertarians understand that for Libertarianism to work, you need a basic, unconditional aupport system for everyone so that people can enter into agreements actually free; because without this Libertarianism is indistinguishable from Hobbes' State of Nature, hence the need to be a Prepper to prosper.
Yeah, it's like communism. It would work fine if everybody behaved a certain way...
Socialism, too, or is socialism different?
Every time a government controls or redistributes wealth, it's practicing socialism. So nearly all governments are socialist to a certain degree. When a government assumes total control over the economy, we call it "communism."
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Re: Libertarians are Monsters

Post by Tom Palven » Sat Mar 30, 2019 4:58 pm

landrew wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 2:35 pm
Tom Palven wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:46 pm
landrew wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 3:54 am
ElectricMonk wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 3:18 am
Bird you are talking about armchair libertarians who read Ayn Rand and think they have some unique insight.

These aren't true libertarians, they are just lazy thinkers.

Intellectual Libertarians understand that for Libertarianism to work, you need a basic, unconditional aupport system for everyone so that people can enter into agreements actually free; because without this Libertarianism is indistinguishable from Hobbes' State of Nature, hence the need to be a Prepper to prosper.
Yeah, it's like communism. It would work fine if everybody behaved a certain way...
Socialism, too, or is socialism different?
Every time a government controls or redistributes wealth, it's practicing socialism. So nearly all governments are socialist to a certain degree.
I dunno, Landrew. You could also say that all governments are capitalistic to some degree, too, and so on.

It just seems that Bernie Sanders' gang and John Bolton's fascist gang both get more of a pass than Ron Paul's libertarian gang.
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Re: Libertarians are Monsters

Post by ElectricMonk » Sat Mar 30, 2019 5:08 pm

Bird, the lazy Libertarians I know would prefer to have an army of robots working for them, because they prefer not to engaged with people, especially not tough, hard-working ones who could easily take away their lunch money.
There are some who truly do think in terms of "comparative advantage" in their daily life, really thinking that their gardener has reached the pinnacle of his skills and ambitions - but those are obvious douchebags.

What I mean is that for Libertarianism to work, you actually need an state that is more powerful than all the richest people combined, so that it can make sure that the weakest of society can still negotiate coercion-free with the likes of Jeff Bezos.

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Re: Libertarians are Monsters

Post by landrew » Sat Mar 30, 2019 5:17 pm

Tom Palven wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 4:58 pm
landrew wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 2:35 pm
Every time a government controls or redistributes wealth, it's practicing socialism. So nearly all governments are socialist to a certain degree.
I dunno, Landrew. You could also say that all governments are capitalistic to some degree, too, and so on.

It just seems that Bernie Sanders' gang and John Bolton's fascist gang both get more of a pass than Ron Paul's libertarian gang.
You seem to be hung up just a bit in the black-and-white world of political tribalism. The real world is all shades of gray.

Of course capitalism exists in all systems, just as socialism does. In the most extreme implementation of socialism (the USSR; what we call communism) the population survived only because of the black-market capitalism that thrived in the shadows of a repressive system. They got quite good at it, and some of the most successful capitalists in the world today are former Soviets. China was a repressive communist system that barely fed her people until they decided to give capitalism a try, and we all know the result.

Demagogues know how to throw the word "socialist" at any government plan the other side proposes, and the knee-jerk public often falls for it, and reacts negatively to it. I can only imagine life in the beer-soaked world of the non-thinking political polarist.
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Re: Libertarians are Monsters

Post by Gord » Sun Mar 31, 2019 12:34 am

No True Librarian would be a monster.
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Re: Libertarians are Monsters

Post by landrew » Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:05 pm

Meredith Vieira reminds me of a german shepherd.
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Re: Libertarians are Monsters

Post by MikeN » Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:19 pm

I'm not sure about libertarians, but Libertarians are all about the drugs.

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Re: Libertarians are Monsters

Post by landrew » Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:46 pm

MikeN wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:19 pm
I'm not sure about libertarians, but Libertarians are all about the drugs.
Maybe the drugs are all about Libertarianism. Like a virus, perhaps the drug implants an intent into the minds of the users to find a way to justify drug use. This creates a philosophy of drug use and perhaps ultimately a drug culture.

But probably not.
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Re: Libertarians are Monsters

Post by Tom Palven » Fri Apr 19, 2019 8:53 am

Article about Chinese innovation:

"Beijing is clearly bent on Making China Great Again- and why should it not? Meanwhile, America focuses on transgender bathrooms..."
https://www.lewrockwell.com/2019/04/fre ... -innovate/

I could have posted this link under Science/Technology due to interesting comments on gene insertion, but put it here because Fred Reed identifies as a libertarian.
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Re: Libertarians are Monsters

Post by Wordbird » Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:45 am

http://www.libertariansforum.com/cgi-bi ... 1555703659

Telling people to commit suicide is a regular occurrence among libertarians.

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Re: Libertarians are Monsters

Post by Tom Palven » Sat Apr 20, 2019 2:36 am

Wordbird wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:45 am
http://www.libertariansforum.com/cgi-bi ... 1555703659

Telling people to commit suicide is a regular occurrence among libertarians.
That's good to know.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
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Re: Libertarians are Monsters

Post by Wordbird » Sat Apr 20, 2019 4:42 am

Tom Palven wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 2:36 am
Wordbird wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:45 am
http://www.libertariansforum.com/cgi-bi ... 1555703659

Telling people to commit suicide is a regular occurrence among libertarians.
That's good to know.
And you identify as a libertarian? Why exactly?

Remember: Don't hit, don't steal. Everything else is a go.

Yes, including getting people to kill themselves.

Is it just a horribly unlucky coincidence to you that a philosophy that says bullying people into suicide isn't wrong actually attracts people who enjoy bullying people into suicide?

Amazing! Who would have imagined it? Somebody upstairs must have rolled some consecutive snake eyes or critical fails to come up with such an outstandingly unlikely coincidence.

Am I going to need one of Elliard's Tom Palven in Action bits? Because I expect you'll run away from this one. You're not going to explain why you identify as a spiteful bully and I've literally just asked you to defend the indefensible.

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Re: Libertarians are Monsters

Post by Wordbird » Sat Apr 20, 2019 5:14 am

Image

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Re: Libertarians are Monsters

Post by Gord » Sun Apr 21, 2019 1:35 am

Gord wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 12:34 am
No True Librarian would be a monster.
I always always always think this thread is about librarians, and I'm always always always disappointed. :frown:
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Re: Libertarians are Monsters

Post by landrew » Mon Apr 22, 2019 4:40 pm

Gord wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 1:35 am
Gord wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 12:34 am
No True Librarian would be a monster.
I always always always think this thread is about librarians, and I'm always always always disappointed. :frown:
Let me give it a shot...

In simple terms, Libertarianism is based on anarchy. For most of human existence, people have gathered together into communities that work together for the common good of all its members. And life is good until sociopaths enter the scene. If these characters don't get strung up or run out of town, they embed themselves within the community, greedily undermining it from within for their own selfish benefit. Eventually life becomes so onerous that people either leave, or allow a tyrannical type of leadership to assume power. This can rapidly degenerate into a corrupt or failed state.

The American experience has followed this pattern. Communities that built up with white picket fences and strong community organizations, have fallen one by one to the hordes of shady, self-serving sociopaths, turning charming old neighborhoods into crime-infested slums. The US founding fathers knew all about this, and they tried to design a system that would work against this process of dissolution of anarchy happening, as it had elsewhere, particularly in Europe.

Libertarianism is basically a concept of government that ignores the selfish side of human nature. It shares this flawed thinking with another failed system, communism.
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Re: Libertarians are Monsters

Post by ElectricMonk » Mon Apr 22, 2019 5:32 pm

By gripe with Libertarians is that they don't understand complexity: you think we could have gone to the moon if the NASA scientists and engineers had worked with a Libertarian mindset?
Only by submitting themselves to constraints with each other can humans achieve levels of cooperation that can change the entire planet and even solar systems.
The level of cooperation Libertarians are able to form just doesn't allow for more than survival, and maybe not even that.

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Re: Libertarians are Monsters

Post by Wordbird » Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:13 am

Libertarians understand complexity full well. They know exactly what will happen.

They do not want to go to the moon.

They want to hurt others with impunity.

They are only libertarians because they want to use this super-specific definition of aggression to allow them to get away with everything else, and tie your hands if you want to stop them.

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Re: Libertarians are Monsters

Post by Tom Palven » Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:23 pm

Wordbird wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 4:42 am
Tom Palven wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 2:36 am
Wordbird wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:45 am
http://www.libertariansforum.com/cgi-bi ... 1555703659

Telling people to commit suicide is a regular occurrence among libertarians.
That's good to know.
And you identify as a libertarian? Why exactly?

Is it just a horribly unlucky coincidence to you that a philosophy that says bullying people into suicide isn't wrong actually attracts people who enjoy bullying people into suicide?
Actually, if I have to choose a label it is "classical liberal."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism

Still, I have to use restraint to keep from sending myself death threats.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
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Re: Libertarians are Monsters

Post by landrew » Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:51 pm

I don't doubt that life would be good in a libertarian paradise, but I doubt it could be protected from external predation, exploitation, and corruption from within. I can't help but think that libertarians expect to have it both ways, "all the freedoms; none of the costs."
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Re: Libertarians are Monsters

Post by ElectricMonk » Tue Apr 23, 2019 4:15 pm

A libertarian society would be at a severe disadvantage compared to a more collectively-minded one.

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Re: Libertarians are Monsters

Post by Wordbird » Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:52 am

Tom Palven wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:23 pm
Actually, if I have to choose a label it is "classical liberal."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism
Actually, if you want no government, you're a libertarian. Classical liberals don't adhere to the strict Non-Aggression Principle either. Again, that's libertarians.
Tom Palven wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:23 pm
Still, I have to use restraint to keep from sending myself death threats.
Why bother? Telling people to commit suicide isn't aggression.

You don't think this attracts monsters who want to tell people to commit suicide?

For every nasty thing someone wants to do to someone else, the NAP has a loophole. Want to kill someone? Harass them into suicide.

The NAP seems built for this. It seems built to let a bunch of seedy scam-artists do whatever they want to others.

Tom, what is the point of the NAP if people can kill each other with impunity anyway? That is, if the whole point isn't to allow scam%$#&ery.

I am asking you to answer for this.

I am asking you to answer for a philosophy that dictates that telling people to commit suicide is not wrong.

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Re: Libertarians are Monsters

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Apr 24, 2019 6:20 am

Wordbird wrote:

Why bother? Telling people to commit suicide isn't aggression. ///Of course it is.

You don't think this attracts monsters who want to tell people to commit suicide? // Agreed.

For every nasty thing someone wants to do to someone else, the NAP has a loophole. Want to kill someone? Harass them into suicide. /// Nope. No loophole because HARASSMENT is AGGRESSION: BY DEFINITION.

DICTIONARY SKILLS: Harass: Exhaust by attacking repeatedly

Hmmmm.......for a wordbird, making a simple DICTIONARY FAIL is rather glaring. Your own mounting argument against the NAP of libertardism should have been a loud knocking on your own door?.........Listen to yourself more closely.

I am asking you to answer for a philosophy that dictates that telling people to commit suicide is not wrong. /// I have one close to this: society should "of course" not disallow suicide and should make it as comfortable and a norm as possible. I think people should counsel people on suicide as an option/choice for people in objectively appropriate circumstances for this outcome: ie: the terminally ill. Its all shown quite well in Soylent Green. Just one of the many manias our society forces on its trapped participants.

Mind the gap.
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Re: Libertarians are Monsters

Post by Tom Palven » Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:06 am

Wordbird wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:52 am
Tom Palven wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:23 pm
Actually, if I have to choose a label it is "classical liberal."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism
Actually, if you want no government, you're a libertarian. Classical liberals don't adhere to the strict Non-Aggression Principle either. Again, that's libertarians.
It’s interesting that you bring up the Libertarian Party Non-Aggression Principle, which is contained the LP pledge that “"I hereby certify that I do not believe in or advocate the initiation of force as a means of achieving political or social goals," the signing of which is necessary for LP membership.

The NAP is almost identical to the various Golden, Silver, and Platinum Rules, particularly the negative Golden Rule- "Do not do to others what you don't want done to yourself," which Karen Armstrong mentions:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=le ... d+talk&vie...

The Golden Rule is simply an ethical standard, not a commandment from God handed down on a stone tablet.

Historians attribute it to Confucius, who is alleged to have stated that all of human ethics could be described in one word, “reciprocity.” It is something to aspire to in order to make life easier for ourselves and people we are in contact with. It does not exclude self-defense and is not a suicide pact.

Since I am not a member of the LP I have thus not taken the Non-aggression pledge, but I try to live by the Golden Rules, and think that I do so much more consistently as I grow older.

Neocons, of course, oppose the Golden Rule. You may recall that Ron Paul mentioned it a Republican debate and was booed.
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=ro ... ORM=VDRVRV
Last edited by Tom Palven on Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Libertarians are Monsters

Post by ElectricMonk » Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:09 am

The Silver Rule is a very good shorthand for most moral questions between individuals.

It simply doesn't apply to organizations or states.

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Re: Libertarians are Monsters

Post by Tom Palven » Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:17 am

ElectricMonk wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:09 am
The Silver Rule is a very good shorthand for most moral questions between individuals.

It simply doesn't apply to organizations or states.
Yes, the negative version of the Golden Rule is often called The Silver Rule, usually expressed as "Do not do to others what you don't want done to you, and there is also The Platinum Rule and others, which basically express "live and let live."
https://classroom.synonym.com/what-is-t ... 80729.html

Why shouldn't The Silver Rule apply to organizations or states? I don't think I'd want to belong to or work for an organization that doesn't adhere to it.
Last edited by Tom Palven on Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Libertarians are Monsters

Post by ElectricMonk » Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:27 am

Tom Palven wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:17 am
ElectricMonk wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:09 am
The Silver Rule is a very good shorthand for most moral questions between individuals.

It simply doesn't apply to organizations or states.
Yes, the Silver Rule is the negative version of the Golden Rule.
https://classroom.synonym.com/what-is-t ... 80729.html

Why shouldn't it apply to organization or states? I don't think I'd want to belong to an organization that doesn't adhere to it.
Because either precious metal rule is based on empathy, the ability to put yourself in the other agent's shoes.
This doesn't work on the scale of large groups, since what is important to one might not be for another, due to size, economics, history, religion, culture, education levels, form of government etc. etc.
The good and harm that one group can do to another is potentially vastly disproportional.
Last edited by ElectricMonk on Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Libertarians are Monsters

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:30 am

.............because you are anthropomorphizing organizations.
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Re: Libertarians are Monsters

Post by Tom Palven » Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:14 am

ElectricMonk wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:27 am
Tom Palven wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:17 am
ElectricMonk wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:09 am
The Silver Rule is a very good shorthand for most moral questions between individuals.

It simply doesn't apply to organizations or states.
Yes, the Silver Rule is the negative version of the Golden Rule.
https://classroom.synonym.com/what-is-t ... 80729.html

Why shouldn't it apply to organization or states? I don't think I'd want to belong to an organization that doesn't adhere to it.
Because either precious metal rule is based on empathy, the ability to put yourself in the other agent's shoes.
This doesn't work on the scale of large groups, since what is important to one might not be for another, due to size, economics, history, religion, culture, education levels, form of government etc. etc.
The good and harm that one group can do to another is potentially vastly disproportional.
I still don't see why "Do not do to others what they do not want done to them" shouldn't apply to evaluating organizations, like the Ku Klux Klan, say, regardless of size, etc.

Organizations shouldn't discriminate against any people based on race, color, gender, etc. because they don't like to be discriminated against. And if they prey on people I don't want to work for they or patronize them.

Your paragraph just seems like gobbledegook to me. Maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree.
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Re: Libertarians are Monsters

Post by ElectricMonk » Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:40 am

So you think that the US should treat a single human the way they treat another country?
How would that work?