Some species deserve to go extinct

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Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by landrew » Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:11 pm

Evolution is a blind watchmaker, unable to "design" anything with forethought, only by "feel" from one generation to the next. That's why some species are doomed to extinction by natural selection, which chooses a short-term advantage over long-term survival of the species. A common example is parthenogenesis, whereby a female appears in the population which has the ability to fertilize her own eggs, and produces clones of herself instead of hybrid offspring. This "advantage" sometimes causes the males of the population to go extinct, leaving a population of clones, which can reproduce rapidly, but lack the biodiversity to withstand an attack by a virulent pathogen. This what happened to potatoes in Ireland in the 1840s and to to the Gros Michel banana in the 1950s. This dooms the species to eventual extinction.

Another example is a type of bird called the Everglades snail kite, locally endangered because evolution has chosen to have it specialize on one type of food, the apple snail. The bird has a specialized beak for that purpose. Because evolution is "unintelligently designed," the species has put "all its eggs in one basket," so to speak, which would not be the choice of an "intelligent" designer. As apple snail populations decline, natural selection may favor individuals who can feed on more diverse food sources, thereby saving the species from extinction.

All species that have ever existed have eventually gone extinct. There's nobody driving the evolution "bus." It creeps along like bumper-cars, based on what works and what doesn't. We can't save them all, assuming that everything is our fault. Polar bears are not going extinct, but their populations have waned in recent years due climate change. Their populations will grow again when their habitat is restored to that which enables them to thrive.
Last edited by landrew on Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by gorgeous » Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:24 pm

the dinosaurs were asking for it...tiny arms that can't reach anything..get real...
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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by landrew » Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:18 pm

Sometimes evolution rolls the dice and gets snake eyes.
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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:53 pm

Humans, the planet doesn't need them.
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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:57 pm

Extinction is the design.
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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:59 pm

But is it an intelligent design?
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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:02 am

HAH!! In a meaningless universe, what is intelligence?
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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:07 am

I don't know about the rest of us, but I'm not stupid.
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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:17 am

thats an inward analysis. How does your intelligence impact the design of the Universe?
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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by Wordbird » Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:10 am

The road to extinction is paved with overspecialisation.
- Wordbird
landrew wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:18 pm
Sometimes evolution rolls the dice and gets snake eyes.
He who steals the blood of a parrot has a good chance of being mimicked.
- idk probably not Confucius

Overspecialisation is the greatest curse of the modern world.

The most generalist animal (hey, real animal; I'm not including invertebrates here) is the rat. Millions are spent trying to kill them, and they simply adapt.

The most specialist animal is arguably the giant panda. Millions are spent trying to preserve them and they won't even %$#& on their own.

In a world where everyone must have a "job" to survive, and what you need will always cost everything you can afford, whereas whatever you're selling will only ever be worth barely enough to keep you alive, Humans could learn from this.

Seriously, there's one problem with modern humanity.

One.

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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:21 am

Wordbird wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:10 am
In a world where everyone must have a "job" to survive, and what you need will always cost everything you can afford, whereas whatever you're selling will only ever be worth barely enough to keep you alive, Humans could learn from this.
Even allowing for the expansionist vagaries of personal poetry, this just isn't true. Humans have LOADS of spare time......because we produce/sell enough for everything we want/(need being a smaller amount) and then use our idle time to get in trouble.
Wordbird wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:10 am
Seriously, there's one problem with modern humanity.

One.
Whats your No One? Here's mine: Adapting to almost any outrage, making it normal and acceptable.
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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by ElectricMonk » Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:30 am

Extinction is a waste of potentially useful DNA.
It would be awesome if we could sequence as much as possible genetic material of doomed species, maybe even freeze some samples.

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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by Wordbird » Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:30 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:21 am
Even allowing for the expansionist vagaries of personal poetry, this just isn't true. Humans have LOADS of spare time......because we produce/sell enough for everything we want/(need being a smaller amount) and then use our idle time to get in trouble.
We're getting there.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:21 am
Whats your No One? Here's mine: Adapting to almost any outrage, making it normal and acceptable.
That's a good one.

Still, I think all troubles ultimately stem from the curse of overspecialisation.

No one wants to lose their job, so they'll bow to outrage.

When America was founded, people valued the right to speak freely very highly.

Now people will adopt whatever positions they have to, just to keep the social standing necessary to get and keep jobs.

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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by ElectricMonk » Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:48 am

Overspecialization is a sign of how complex an ecosystem is.

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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:54 am

WB: whats your No?
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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by landrew » Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:42 pm

A place where I once worked had a bit of a mouse problem, so they installed some live traps. These were basically a box with a one-way door triggered by a trip mechanism. This was thought to be more humane than other traps. The gentleman in charge of the traps was horrified to see that the trap usually contained one live mouse and several half-eaten dead ones, so he decided to put some mouse poison in the traps. These were blocks of a blue, waxy substance containing warfarin. Much to his surprise, the box contained a live mouse, and the inside of the box was littered with little blue pellets that had obviously gone through the mouse with no effect. Evolution simply adapts a species to whatever the environment has to throw at it.
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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:25 pm

The mice that don't die have a better chance of passing on their genes than the ones who do.
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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by landrew » Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:54 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:25 pm
The mice that don't die have a better chance of passing on their genes than the ones who do.
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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:32 pm

landrew wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:54 pm
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:25 pm
The mice that don't die have a better chance of passing on their genes than the ones who do.
Captain_Obvious_Badge.jpg
Yeah, that's what I was pointing out regarding your post. Swooshed you again, I see.
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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by landrew » Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:35 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:32 pm
landrew wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:54 pm
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:25 pm
The mice that don't die have a better chance of passing on their genes than the ones who do.
Captain_Obvious_Badge.jpg
Yeah, that's what I was pointing out regarding your post. Swooshed you again, I see.
I was just giving you the recognition you deserve.
Such ingratitude.
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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:36 pm

You really don't have a clue how to duck and cover.
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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:01 pm

................I'm with landrew on this one. His point really was that the mice had adapted..........or the box was bogus rat poison?

Contra: thats just how little Gawd thinks of landrew.

..............Hmmmm........now, I don't know what to think.
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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by Lance Kennedy » Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:35 pm

Rats and mice are very specialized. Their specialisation is rapid breeding. They do not need any other adaptation.

Like all over specialized species, they are doomed. This will happen when some geek invents a cheap rat killing robot. Probably shaped like a snake. People hate rats so much that a trillion such robots will be sold (making the geek very rich).

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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:48 pm

Thats not specialization. Its an adaptation but not specialization. I could not confirm this within 5 minutes with google.
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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by landrew » Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:53 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:01 pm
................I'm with landrew on this one. His point really was that the mice had adapted..........or the box was bogus rat poison?

Contra: thats just how little Gawd thinks of landrew.

..............Hmmmm........now, I don't know what to think.
The feeling is mutual,
however, there's nothing bogus about a box of rat poison. Obviously the rodents became immune to warfarin blocks.
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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by OlegTheBatty » Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:36 pm

landrew wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:53 pm
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:01 pm
................I'm with landrew on this one. His point really was that the mice had adapted..........or the box was bogus rat poison?

Contra: thats just how little Gawd thinks of landrew.

..............Hmmmm........now, I don't know what to think.
The feeling is mutual,
however, there's nothing bogus about a box of rat poison. Obviously the rodents became immune to warfarin blocks.
How many generations of rats did it take?
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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by landrew » Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:40 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:36 pm
landrew wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:53 pm
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:01 pm
................I'm with landrew on this one. His point really was that the mice had adapted..........or the box was bogus rat poison?

Contra: thats just how little Gawd thinks of landrew.

..............Hmmmm........now, I don't know what to think.
The feeling is mutual,
however, there's nothing bogus about a box of rat poison. Obviously the rodents became immune to warfarin blocks.
How many generations of rats did it take?
How many years since warfarin first started to be used? Therein lies your answer.
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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:02 pm

Unless there was mutation that hasn't been recognized. "One small gulp for a rat, one giant squeak for ratkind."
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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by OlegTheBatty » Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:37 pm

landrew wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:40 pm
OlegTheBatty wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:36 pm
landrew wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:53 pm
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:01 pm
................I'm with landrew on this one. His point really was that the mice had adapted..........or the box was bogus rat poison?

Contra: thats just how little Gawd thinks of landrew.

..............Hmmmm........now, I don't know what to think.
The feeling is mutual,
however, there's nothing bogus about a box of rat poison. Obviously the rodents became immune to warfarin blocks.
How many generations of rats did it take?
How many years since warfarin first started to be used? Therein lies your answer.
You are not describing an experiment where warfarin was fed to rats for hundreds of generations. you are describing an experiment where 1 rat appeared to survive eating pellets laced with warfarin. How much evolving can one rat do?
. . . with the satisfied air of a man who thinks he has an idea of his own because he has commented on the idea of another . . . - Alexandre Dumas 'The Count of Monte Cristo"

There is no statement so absurd that it has not been uttered by some philosopher. - Cicero

.......................Doesn't matter how often I'm proved wrong.................... ~ bobbo the pragmatist

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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by landrew » Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:13 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:37 pm
landrew wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:40 pm
OlegTheBatty wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:36 pm
landrew wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:53 pm
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:01 pm
................I'm with landrew on this one. His point really was that the mice had adapted..........or the box was bogus rat poison?

Contra: thats just how little Gawd thinks of landrew.

..............Hmmmm........now, I don't know what to think.
The feeling is mutual,
however, there's nothing bogus about a box of rat poison. Obviously the rodents became immune to warfarin blocks.
How many generations of rats did it take?
How many years since warfarin first started to be used? Therein lies your answer.
You are not describing an experiment where warfarin was fed to rats for hundreds of generations. you are describing an experiment where 1 rat appeared to survive eating pellets laced with warfarin. How much evolving can one rat do?
It wasn't an experiment. It was an observation, where a mouse was obviously eating poison, and wasn't killed by it.
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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by OlegTheBatty » Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:28 pm

landrew wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:13 pm
OlegTheBatty wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:37 pm
landrew wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:40 pm
OlegTheBatty wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:36 pm
landrew wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:53 pm
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:01 pm
................I'm with landrew on this one. His point really was that the mice had adapted..........or the box was bogus rat poison?

Contra: thats just how little Gawd thinks of landrew.

..............Hmmmm........now, I don't know what to think.
The feeling is mutual,
however, there's nothing bogus about a box of rat poison. Obviously the rodents became immune to warfarin blocks.
How many generations of rats did it take?
How many years since warfarin first started to be used? Therein lies your answer.
You are not describing an experiment where warfarin was fed to rats for hundreds of generations. you are describing an experiment where 1 rat appeared to survive eating pellets laced with warfarin. How much evolving can one rat do?
It wasn't an experiment. It was an observation, where a mouse was obviously eating poison, and wasn't killed by it.
Yet.
. . . with the satisfied air of a man who thinks he has an idea of his own because he has commented on the idea of another . . . - Alexandre Dumas 'The Count of Monte Cristo"

There is no statement so absurd that it has not been uttered by some philosopher. - Cicero

.......................Doesn't matter how often I'm proved wrong.................... ~ bobbo the pragmatist

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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by landrew » Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:41 pm

The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Apr 18, 2019 9:50 am

Image
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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by OlegTheBatty » Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:22 pm

landrew wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:41 pm
OlegTheBatty wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:28 pm

Yet.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 214433.htm
Ah . . perhaps you DO understand the difference between a controlled scientific study involving multiple test subjects and an uncontrolled unscientific study involving one test subject.

Perhaps.
. . . with the satisfied air of a man who thinks he has an idea of his own because he has commented on the idea of another . . . - Alexandre Dumas 'The Count of Monte Cristo"

There is no statement so absurd that it has not been uttered by some philosopher. - Cicero

.......................Doesn't matter how often I'm proved wrong.................... ~ bobbo the pragmatist

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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by Walter » Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:47 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:53 pm
Humans, the planet doesn't need them.
The human species will go extinct with the planet never knowing we were here. And never knowing how the Industrial Revolution caused irreparable harm.

As I said a few years ago, the cockroach will still be laughing millions of years after humans have disappeared.

As I would teach my 4th grade science class, always be skeptical of the doomsayer.

I would also be fired. By angry parents.

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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Apr 19, 2019 2:53 pm

The planet doesn't know anything.

No difference between inchoate gases, molten fire ball, frozen ice cube, or 10 Billion hoomans. Its meaningless & existential.
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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by landrew » Fri Apr 19, 2019 3:40 pm

Walter wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:47 pm

The human species will go extinct with the planet never knowing we were here.
Good take, but the earth never stood static for millions of years. Cosmic events and evolving life have been causing catastrophic earth changes since the earth began. This time, the organism responsible can foresee it happening, but unfortunately we don't quite have the maturity to manage it properly.
The fossil record will contain plenty of evidence of our existence. The "human layer" will have all sorts of human artifacts embedded in the sediments like liquor bottles, handguns, syringes, smartphones and twinkies.
Walter wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:47 pm
And never knowing how the Industrial Revolution caused irreparable harm.
Harm to a pristine, static environment; which never existed for long. Earth changes are inevitable, with or without human involvement, however, our future depends on our ability to design sustainable cycles for everything we do. Examples: the carbon cycle needs to be restored, the nutrient cycle in our soils, the recycling of industrial materials better energy conservation and basically everything within the footprint of our existence.
Walter wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:47 pm
As I said a few years ago, the cockroach will still be laughing millions of years after humans have disappeared.
True. The simpler the organism, the more adaptable it is to catastrophic change. Unfortunately, we are not of that class.
Last edited by landrew on Fri Apr 19, 2019 5:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Gawdzilla Sama
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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:14 pm

Learn how to quote.
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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by landrew » Fri Apr 19, 2019 5:52 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:14 pm
Learn how to quote.
Thanks - fixed.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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Gawdzilla Sama
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Re: Some species deserve to go extinct

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Apr 19, 2019 5:58 pm

I still have to kill you. Gomenasai.
Chachacha wrote:"Oh, thweet mythtery of wife, at waft I've found you!"
WWII Resources. Primary sources.
The Myths of Pearl Harbor. Demythologizing the attack.
Hyperwar. Hypertext history of the Second World War.
The greatest place to work in the entire United States.