Racism

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Lance Kennedy
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Re: Racism

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sat Feb 16, 2019 12:47 am

Landrew

You are correct in suggesting that there will be many surprises in future, things not predicted. But there will also be many things we have predicted. I predict asteroid mining, to start within 60 years. There will be a need for Earth like habitat conditions for the miners, which means a rotating wheel or cylinder. With vast amounts of metal uneconomic to send to Earth, it seems to me that the miners will expand their habitats into something really large.

I do not see a Mars colony as being of much value. It would be every bit as difficult in construction as one in space, and immobile. A mobile habitat, like a Rama, would be much more valuable.

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Re: Racism

Post by landrew » Sat Feb 16, 2019 1:05 am

maunas wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 12:20 am
Transmutating elements will pollute our environment with radioactivity.
There's that certainty you're famous for.
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Re: Racism

Post by maunas » Sat Feb 16, 2019 8:15 am

landrew wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 1:05 am
maunas wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 12:20 am
Transmutating elements will pollute our environment with radioactivity.
There's that certainty you're famous for.
Landrew,
You know that,
although, gold can be prepared from lead by alchemy, the gold obtained is radioactive and costs very high than natural gold.

In general, artificial transmutation can be expressed by following nuclear reaction:

Target Nuclide + Bombardment Particle → New Nuclide + Ejected Particle 

But, by fission transmutation we can convert  long lived radioactive elements in nuclear waste to shorter-lived particles that produce radiation for a much shorter period and are less radiotoxic. 

Nuclear fusion also, does produce radioactive waste. However, in contrast to fission produced wastes, they are short lived and decay to background levels in a very short time. But using nuclear fusion for producing elements, which Lance mentions in his post, will consume tremendous amounts of energy without producing any for our use.
Every point of the universe is its centre, so universe is an infinity inside a dimensionless point. The dimensions we intute are within this point. That is why quantum mechanics is not weird. Entanglement becomes possible.
Actually, all existence is zero dimensional.
Everything is in me and I am there in everything. Only I existed in the past, only I exist now, and, only I will be existing in the future. Everything was done, is being done, and will be done by me.
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Re: Racism

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sat Feb 16, 2019 6:41 pm

I do not recall discussing this. Transmutation of elements is not a practical process. Tiny amounts only during radiodecay.

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Re: Racism

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:28 pm

I was going to start a new issue on Racism, but this thread is active........so here goes:

The very first issue that made me turn on Religion was in sunday school and the anti-black attitudes that were expressed. I forget the circumstances now but the result was I thought less of religion and thought all men were created equal. So, as I've mentioned, I've enjoyed having my white privileged informed and expanded. Its fun to feel the stretch. Just recently, I got stretched on the BLACK FACE brouhaha that is still going on. This morning on Democracy Now I got a whole new stretch: the "I'm not a racist" condemnation. I think and say that or close enough to it. Turns out that makes me a racist just like blackface does. along with blacks can't discriminate or be racists themselves because they are the targeted/abused racial group, it turns out whites can't claim to be "not racist" according to Ibram X. Kendi. I took this as just the always present over reaction, over commitment, to any general and actual wrong that we can identify. But in a few minutes he explained his position: "There is no I'm not a racist position, there is only racist and anti-racist positions." Hmmmmmm....now THERE is a definitional argument worth looking at. So, I thought about it for awhile and found what I thought was a key error making his claim a failure. Good to provoke conversation, but on analysis incorrect. I'll put it in a spoiler just to give you time to think about it yourself.
► Show Spoiler
anyway.........its a whole mix of issue with my take away AS WITH ALL DEFINITIONAL ARGUMENTS: not to agree or disagree with his definition mostly one way or the other but rather to include it in my list of evaluation factors whenever it applies. Is any given statement racist.....or anti-racist? Might provide an insight missing otherwise. I'm sure the Prof would use it differently than myself. The race divide in america. always fun to see someone start out with a valid grievance and then take it too far and wind up a nut case. I'm NOT applying that to the prof.......but he's on that journey from what I saw in 15 minutes. I'm sure some of his "A" students will go that far.....and then still have some important choices to make..........

FTL: "And I have yet to figure out what it means to be a “not racist.” And so, I think, first and foremost, for Americans to stop being in denial about their racist ideas, about the policies that are causing racial disparities, and recognize that there’s only racist and anti-racist ideas, notions of racial hierarchy and notions of racial equality." ///// In my view: an overstatement AND while I think the suggested reading list is admirable, I doubt there is support for this quote in those books. I could be wrong.

https://www.democracynow.org/2019/2/15/ ... k_douglass
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Re: Racism

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sun Feb 17, 2019 1:01 am

In a sense, everyone is racist. Evolution has built into us a distrust of strangers, and the more different the stranger looks, the higher the distrust. I remember being in a village in Fiji and a young child seeing my white face and bursting into tears. Quite natural.

There are experiments that show different reactions to images of black versus white people which is used to "prove " racism. Those conclusions are, of course, bull shite. Such reactions are not racism, but merely the totally normal distrust of strangers, expressed via the unconscious mind.

Racism is not some subconscious reaction. It is when our conscious thinking weaves malicious lies about people who have different coloured skin. Having a feeling of nervousness when with such a person is not racism. But it is important that we consciously behave in a way that does not discriminate. It is the way we behave, and the way we discipline our conscious thoughts that shows if we are racist or not. Unconscious brain activity is mostly beyond our control, and such activity should not be labelled racist.

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Re: Racism

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Feb 17, 2019 1:06 am

Well said, but more than a quibble: the unconscious brain IS RACIST by your very explanation. What saves you is rightly saying: "Its what we do with such feelings that counts." That applies to Blacks as well. There is a huge difference between "racism" and "racist". Lots of similarities too.

Hard for people to juggle.

Well done..........and can't we all make finer and finer distinctions?
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Re: Racism

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sun Feb 17, 2019 2:35 am

Thank you Bobbo.
I feel the same way about morality. If a young man sees an attractive woman (I was that young man once) and feels the urge to grab her and do sexual things with her, that is just normal. It is not what our underlying passions say that counts. It is what we say and do in the real world which determines whether we are moral or not.

The worst commandment in the idiot bible is where it says that if we sin in our heart, it is just as bad as an overt sin. What bull shite !

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Re: Racism

Post by psychiatry is a scam » Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:21 am

leda fisher -Dickinson college student - should white boys be allowed to talk .

while we debate stuff - they will keep fighting for more .

females have an instinctual need to bio diversify .

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Re: Racism

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Feb 17, 2019 4:20 am

psychiatry is a scam wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:21 am
leda fisher -Dickinson college student - should white boys be allowed to talk .

while we debate stuff - they will keep fighting for more .

females have an instinctual need to bio diversify .
Can you add the missing words?........or a link so we can get a half formed idea??
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Re: Racism

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Mar 29, 2019 6:52 pm

Watching the American Masters tv bio on Sammy Davis Jr. He got a major break into showbusiness by being mentored/guided/promoted by Eddie Kantor on his tv variety show. Kantor broke the practice and integrated his show and actually hugged SDJr on stage and thereafter treated him almost as his son. SDJr shown crediting Kantor for being responsible for his own success.

Eddie Kantor did a whole lot of Black Face in his own routines. Was Kantor a racists using Black Face to mock and subjugate the Black Man? Maybe...but not according to SDJr.

So........like everything else: some do, some don't. In my own view: white boys can say the N word right out loud and there is no anti-black racist intent at all. Others, mean it right out loud to be just the opposite. BUT...culturally..those in America of African descent take the position that the N-Word, and now Black Face, and just today on Democracy Now the Harvard Picture of a Black Man & Woman held in Slavery, are the property of Blacks as opposed to Whites and can not/should not be appropriated. I agree, for the reasons already stated above.
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Re: Racism

Post by landrew » Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:01 pm

We're not born racist, but we do have tribal instincts that are triggered by the ideation of "us" and "them." We don't hear much about race wars in the ancient past, because it just wasn't a thing. Children of different races happily play together until someone introduces the concept of one skin color being superior over another. That's when racism appears. Whenever people find convenient rationale for ranking themselves above another identifiable group; whether it be genetic, religious, political or economic, that's where racism originates.
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Re: Racism

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sat Apr 06, 2019 2:59 am

I think you may be a bit naive, landrew, about no race wars in the past. The only reason for that, in as far as it is correct (not very), is that different peoples were geographically separated. But there have always been lots of wars between people from slightly different geographical areas, like the ancient Greeks and Persians, and it is debatable how much that was caused by distrusting and hating people who look a bit different.

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Re: Racism

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Apr 06, 2019 3:55 am

In the ancient past, there were no auto accidents either..........aka: what Lance said: "different peoples were geographically separated."

Besides the fact: even if it were true: so what? That would only confirm that people aren't racists until taught to be..............on which everyone already agrees. aaaaaannnnnnndddddddd if they were racists, it was bcause they were taught to be.........right?

tautology.
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Re: Racism

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sat Apr 06, 2019 4:33 am

Bobbo

Racism is a subset of the general condition of xenophobia. You do not need to be taught.

I had an interesting experience many years ago when living in Fiji. I went to a local village and a young child who had never seen a white guy before took one look at me and began screaming. Xenophobia is inbuilt and racism is a very natural outcome of that.

I would reverse your statement and say that resisting racism is what needs to be taught.

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Re: Racism

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Apr 06, 2019 4:39 am

I disagree. You have to be taught what is different from you. The new born is very much a blank slate. Very few "built in" behaviors/attitudes. One of the chief and strongest is to believe and obey what your parents show you. You don't have to be taught in any formalistic way.

Piaget: The Four Stages of Childhood Cognitive Development
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Re: Racism

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:20 am

Bobbo

You obviously have not seen young children exposed to strangers. Sure, a new born baby will not react, because it has not learned about separate individuals. But a little later, they become very suspicious of strangers. And strangers who look different attract the greatest suspicion. Racism is easy. It is teaching children NOT to be afraid of those who are visually different that is not so easy.

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Re: Racism

Post by landrew » Sat Apr 06, 2019 3:05 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 3:55 am
In the ancient past, there were no auto accidents either..........aka: what Lance said: "different peoples were geographically separated."

Besides the fact: even if it were true: so what? That would only confirm that people aren't racists until taught to be..............on which everyone already agrees. aaaaaannnnnnndddddddd if they were racists, it was bcause they were taught to be.........right?

tautology.
It's easy to conflate ethnocentrism with racism; however they are not the same. Most nations or tribes proclaimed themselves to be superior over all others. The ancient Greeks termed most non-Greeks as "barbarians." For centuries, the Scots proudly said they are better than everyone else, and even today, the USA claims to be the best nation on the planet. None of this is racism. Racism is when one race self-defines itself as superior to another race, which is conceptual and not instinctual. Not to say that there haven't been racist people throughout history, but it was never as prevalent as it became in the 20th century.
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Re: Racism

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:41 pm

There are many things, landrew, which appear more prevalent after the invention of widespread news media. All kinds of violence and war as well as racism. But when academics do detailed studies and nail down the actual numbers, they find a lot of social evils have actually declined. Eg deaths from war. Number of murders.

Because of the approach the media take (if it bleeds, it leads), the impression is given that social evils are on the increase, even when they are falling substantially. I have not seen the data, but I would suspect that racism has not increased over previous times. For example, I bet that discrimination against people of African origin during the slavery period in the USA was much worse than the 20th century. Do not let the negativity of the news media convince you. That is the kind of fallacy that Bobbo and Lausten are sucked in by.

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Re: Racism

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:59 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:20 am
Bobbo

You obviously have not seen young children exposed to strangers. Sure, a new born baby will not react, because it has not learned about separate individuals. But a little later, they become very suspicious of strangers. And strangers who look different attract the greatest suspicion. Racism is easy. It is teaching children NOT to be afraid of those who are visually different that is not so easy.
Read a book on the subject. There are many.
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Re: Racism

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:40 pm

Bobbo

Why do you not ?
Young children are not racist per se, but xenophobia (fear of the stranger) is common. This translates into fear of those who look different, and thus racism. To get around this, children need to be taught that we are all, regardless of skin color, people who deserve respect. Of course this applies to a lot of adults as well, but in many cases it is already too late.

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Re: Racism

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:53 pm

As part of my degree in clinical psychology, I've read many books on developmental psychology. as evidenced, my profs were really into Piaget.

I will highlight a general conflict in my own general conclusions: hoomans are very much blank slates when born, not even knowing the difference between themselves and not themselves. Learning they are the one's crying is one of our first learning events.....and a lot of involuntary conditioning takes off from there. NONETHELESS right from the start, I've thought that dna controls more than it is generally given credit for.

So....how inherent is the behavior toward strangers? Science doesn't have an answer.....more different schools of thought and application. I think it is mostly taught. If you are raised in isolation....you fear the stranger. If you are raised communally.......not so much. Exceptions all around.

At the end of the day: childhood is interesting, but we are all adults now. Know what I mean?
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Re: Racism

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sat Apr 06, 2019 11:06 pm

Yes, we are all adults. My point is simply that xenophobia (which is not truly the same as racism) is a normal part of a child's growth. So to prevent it becoming racism, we need to teach the children that all people are simply people and deserving of respect.

I do not have much belief in the blank slate hypothesis. There are enough similarities in human behaviour internationally, and across all cultures, to indicate that a sizable chunk is innate. Of course, a new born baby shows little of that (Except such innate behavior, like crying, screaming, smiling, gurgling, and other methods of manipulating adults). The full range of innate behaviour develops as the child grows. The picture is complicated by the fact that the human ability to learn is sufficient to mask a lot of what is innate.

It is also true that a lot of "experts" in this field practise cherry picking data to support their preferred conclusion. A Scientific American article I read a few years back suggested that, until we have some way of quantifying it better, we should regard human behavior across the board as 50% learned and 50% innate. Obviously that number will be proved wrong in the fullness of time, but it is probably a good rule of thumb to operate by until we have better data.

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Re: Racism

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:33 am

Lance: there you go: "a new born baby shows little of that"........and then in EVERY culture across all times ALL BABIES: are acculturated....they die if left to their own innate inherent behavior. AS I STATED AND YOU DON'T ENGAGE: if the kiddie is raised isolated as to his family unit in the main, then xenophobia comes in, if the twin of said baby is raised communally as in an orphanage, not as much. Its the "environment of social interactions" that is guiding the kiddies development and perceptions. Actual teaching or guiding doesn't start until many broad perceptual orientations are pretty well hard set....most of which can be changed with some parental effort if understood and targeted which it rarely is as in the "Do as I say, not what I do" school of realityl

Anybody saying its 50%/50% on any subject is simply telling you they don't know. You haven't figured that out yet? ha, ha....very 50/50 on your part.
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Re: Racism

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sun Apr 07, 2019 3:41 am

Bobbo

The best way of judging what is learned and what is innate is to look at cross cultural behaviour. That is because truly learned behaviours vary. Innate behaviours do not. For example, the human smile means the same thing everywhere, so our response to it is innate. Gestures, though, are very different from one place to another, so they are learned.

The young childs xenophobia is the same in all cultures, hence innate.

Your comment on 50 50 was just plain stoopid, since I already explained what that was about.

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Re: Racism

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Apr 07, 2019 4:18 am

Smiles don't mean the same thing everywhere.

Xenophobia is not the same everywhere as I have posted twice, you still won't engage, and think ignoring the disagreement is won by repeating your position. You don't........you simply refuse to engage.

50/50.....oh, good for you. Yes, it was humor. I simply ignore all 50/50 statements as a better use of my time.........for the reason stated.
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Re: Racism

Post by landrew » Sun Apr 07, 2019 5:42 pm

Humans are all the same species, and we have fewer genetic differences between us than dogs do. Dogs fight, sometimes killing each other, over turf and pack-order, but we humans have the added dimension of consciousness. It allows us to process ideas which can lead us into behaviors beyond our instincts which can be good or bad. Fortunately, we have the ability to analyse this trait about ourselves (some of us, anyway) and we can modify our beliefs and behaviors accordingly.

None of us are perfect, and no one expects us to behave perfectly, but we do have a right to call each other out when we go off-script.
Whether we choose to use this feedback constructively or not is another matter.
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