No One Really Believes Their Religion

General discussion on the subject of religion, losing religion, and having no religion to lose...
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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by TJrandom » Fri Mar 22, 2019 8:22 am

Poodle wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:57 am
Lance Kennedy wrote:
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... undergo anorexia training in a pressure chamber ...
Anoxia?
You are 'sposed to use red.

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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by Lausten » Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:45 pm

Wordbird wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:07 am
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:37 am
Talk to one.
I have. I think they're deeply entrenched in self-deception.

But there's that little, teeny-tiny logical mind still in there.

If there wasn't, these people could not function.

If they didn't have enough logic to know it's all lies, they would walk off cliffs and expect to fly.

On some level, they know.
It's actually worse in most cases. You can find a lot of good in the core of most religions. You can even make the case that the good stuff is the intention of the founders. You can do this using historical methods. But you can't prove what someone thought thousands of years ago, so that's not that important.

What is important, is that despite that, people chose the opposite of those good intentions. They cherry pick the stuff about abusing women or beating children or owning slaves and say that is the message. They worship their own anti-Christ and call it righteous.
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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by landrew » Fri Mar 22, 2019 4:22 pm

Life is hard, and requires some deep thought, but that's not to the liking of some people, so they sign that job over to a religion.
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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Mar 22, 2019 4:55 pm

More fundamentally.......religion is foisted on kiddies before they are thinking at all. So, yeah: after you are indoctrinated, it takes deep thought to free yourself from what we learned as kiddies. Takes deep thought to learn anything new after about age 30.

.....................Just look..............(deep or shallow within yourself. aka: where does your thinking take place?) bwhahahahahahah! Yes: the thinking animal.
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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by Lance Kennedy » Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:13 pm

Lausten

Religions are not always the result of good intentions. I can tell you of three modern religions that began as swindles. That is, Mormonism, Spiritism, Scientology. I have serious doubts about several of the older, more traditional religions, and strongly suspect a similar origin.

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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by Tom Palven » Sun Mar 24, 2019 7:53 am

Mark Twain actually wrote a small book on Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist) and its founder, Mary Baker Eddy, who was his contemporary:
https://www.amazon.com/Christian-Scienc ... way&sr=8-1

He referred to Eddy as "the queen of charlatans."
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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by Lausten » Sun Mar 24, 2019 1:31 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:13 pm
Lausten

Religions are not always the result of good intentions. I can tell you of three modern religions that began as swindles. That is, Mormonism, Spiritism, Scientology. I have serious doubts about several of the older, more traditional religions, and strongly suspect a similar origin.
Mormon is a rehash of Christianity. The other two are obvious frauds and barely qualify as religions.
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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by Cadmusteeth » Sun Mar 24, 2019 2:30 pm

They're scary bastards to say the least.

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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sun Mar 24, 2019 7:51 pm

Lausten

Mormonism started as a swindle also.

Joseph Smith, who founded it, served time in prison for swindling gullible people with a buried treasure scheme. After release, he started his new religion, and used much of the same paraphernalia that went into his previous swindles. One of the commandments of his new religion was a 10% tithe. Guess how much of that money went straight into his own pocket ?

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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by Wordbird » Mon Mar 25, 2019 2:58 am

I was going through the funny image thread and found this.

Yes, this is just about exactly what I believe, minus the metaphysics.

Religious people are not literally fake; they're just faking.

Image

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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by Cadmusteeth » Mon Mar 25, 2019 3:12 am

Just because most religious people don't take their beliefs to their logical conclusions doesn't make them any less religious. That's more of a flaw with religion than it's adherents. It actively discurages thinking. It's more nuanced than you think.

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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:10 am

Religion doesn't "do" anything. Everything done, is done by people. Slice and dice as you find appropriate.
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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by Wordbird » Mon Mar 25, 2019 3:08 pm

Cadmusteeth wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 3:12 am
Just because most religious people don't take their beliefs to their logical conclusions doesn't make them any less religious. That's more of a flaw with religion than it's adherents. It actively discourages thinking. It's more nuanced than you think.
Interesting that I proved it with Gorgeous.

She knows, on some level, very very well, that dead is dead... that she shouldn't kill people, because death is not a reset button.

It's not that people don't take their beliefs to their logical conclusions.

It's that they're very obviously acting on logic and not their stated beliefs.

People who actually believed their religions would not be able to function in society.

Some of them suicide bomb. Those, okay, I'll admit it: They believe their religions.

Everyone besides suicide bombers has this internal, completely logical pause button, and it continues to work to preclude actions that wouldn't be wrong in their stated belief system, but are wrong assuming basic morality and that the universe runs on logic.

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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by landrew » Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:51 pm

I've broadened my definition of "religion" beyond the traditional institutionalized meaning of religion. I now include any faith-based belief, where logic and reason are sidelined in favor of blind faith and the emotional comfort it provides. All forms of zealotry and cultish behaviors are too similar to be separated by varied definitions in my opinion.
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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Mar 25, 2019 7:47 pm

Quite right........who needs precision and the ability to be understood by anyone else who speaks the language.

....................three steps into crazy.
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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by Wordbird » Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:48 am

landrew wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:51 pm
I've broadened my definition of "religion" beyond the traditional institutionalized meaning of religion. I now include any faith-based belief, where logic and reason are sidelined in favor of blind faith and the emotional comfort it provides. All forms of zealotry and cultish behaviors are too similar to be separated by varied definitions in my opinion.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 7:47 pm
Quite right........who needs precision and the ability to be understood by anyone else who speaks the language.

....................three steps into crazy.
I like Landrew's definition because there's already an apt description of traditional institutionalised religion: Organised religion.

So for people bowing and scraping in churches to their nonsense, organised religion.

And for people whose nonsense is just along for the ride, religious belief. (Or plain religion works too.)

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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:27 am

Precision comes by making distinctions. Throwing many and varied different concepts into a single pot is removing precision from the language and your thinking.

Your choice.

religion: 1. A strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny 2. An institution to express belief in a divine power

faith: 1. beliefs not based on evidence.

Faith a larger context than religion. Trying to make a blivet is useless and annoying.
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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by Lance Kennedy » Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:27 am

Bobbo

There is no precision in language. Word meanings differ from place to place and from time to time. The word 'Gay' had a totally different meaning in my youth. Americans use the word 'fanny' to refer to someone's rear end. The British use it to mean something much more intimate.

There are, admittedly, certain academic wankers who try to nail word meanings down. But like trying to make long term predictions, it is a futile and mistaken effort.

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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:46 am

No.
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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by Lance Kennedy » Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:59 am

Yes.

Language is not some static, dead thing. It is dynamic, changing, evolving, adapting. Words change their meanings. You struggle with William Shakespeare and will be totally bamboozled by Chaucer. Yet both wrote in what, for their time, was standard English. If you could be magically transported into the future 1,000 years, you would have to relearn the language as if it were a foreign tongue, even though it was the standard English of it's time.

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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:10 am

Say anything not obvious. You mention "standard" English. That is how we communicate compared to miscommunciating when we use the wrong word. Standard English changes over time.

Use the right word...........not the wrong word. Figure out in which century you want to be understood.

Eg: making arguments you don't like is not hysteria. Just for example.
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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by Lance Kennedy » Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:29 pm

Landrew saw a similarity between religion and other belief systems, in that idiots always accept stuff on faith, rather than based on good data. I agree, because I see the same connection. For example I argued some time back that the feminist view is wrong, where they believe that rape is caused by the desire for power and control, rather than the sex drive. That belief is religious in that it is based on blind faith, not data. The data shows that drugs which kill the male sex drive also stop rape.

I think landrew is on to something. Religion can involve many different ideas, but the key that links them all is blind faith belief without data.

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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:23 pm

Stop the idiocy.

EVERYTHING is like EVERYTHING else in one manner or more. Now: do the other half of the anlysis: how are they DIFFERENT? Because ANYTHING not the same thing has one or more differences.

Short cut: read the Dictionary..................and you will avoid one of the more stupid appeals to ignorance: Science is Religion too.
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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by Lance Kennedy » Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:44 pm

Actually, if you list the various belief systems currently classified as religions, you will find that the ONLY uniting characteristic is blind faith. Not all religions involve a deity, or an afterlife, or any of those other bits of idiocy we associate with the major religions. Without blind faith, it would be difficult to tie them all into one package, labelled "religion".

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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:02 pm

THE POINT IS: blind faith is the general catch all "large" encompassing category. Religion is just a sub grouping.........as is Science?.... so: it is bad practice to made the Sub Group the Heading for the larger group it is already a part of.

Dictionary.
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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by Lance Kennedy » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:42 pm

How else do you define religion ?

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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:02 pm

I use the dictionary: its a good/necessary third party OBJECTIVE "tether to reality." See above. aka: I do believe your attention span/memory is just this short.
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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by Lance Kennedy » Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:45 am

Doing it by the book, Bobbo ?

The real shakers and movers in society are prepared to step outside the book, because the book is static and often dead, while reality is alive, dynamic and changing.

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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by Lausten » Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:53 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:59 am
Yes.

Language is not some static, dead thing. It is dynamic, changing, evolving, adapting. Words change their meanings. You struggle with William Shakespeare and will be totally bamboozled by Chaucer. Yet both wrote in what, for their time, was standard English. If you could be magically transported into the future 1,000 years, you would have to relearn the language as if it were a foreign tongue, even though it was the standard English of it's time.
But we're not in some other time or some other country. You are the king of the non-argument.
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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by Lance Kennedy » Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:56 am

You missed the point, Lauston.

The point is that language is in a constant state of change, and offering new word meanings is not some kind of crime. It is just part of the linguistic dynamic.

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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:02 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:45 am
Doing it by the book, Bobbo ?

The real shakers and movers in society are prepared to step outside the book, because the book is static and often dead, while reality is alive, dynamic and changing.
You just said the language constant grows and the dictionary with some lag documents/reveals that growth. THE POINT: not thinking you have a new idea because you corrupt the language. I thought you would be more responsive as having argued against the notion that Science is just a belief system: aka Religion?

Too subtle?
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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by Lance Kennedy » Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:51 am

I did not argue against the idea that science is just a belief system because I do not think you believe that yourself.

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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:04 am

But thats not the issue Lance. The issue is the DEFINITION OF SCIENCE.........and religion.........and faith.........and blind faith. You think it is worthwhile to totally confuse certain faith based issues with Religion but not with Science.

The dictionary keeps me clear of such wastes of time. You have no guide....and thereby do waste your time....on the faith part.

Course: we are both right, and in agreement with the Dictionary, on the definition of Science.

"We think with words.................and flower with ideas. Don't Pollute."
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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by Lance Kennedy » Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:28 am

Faith is not a part of science, so there is no confusion.

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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by Tom Palven » Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:46 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:42 pm
How else do you define religion ?
It seems that religions must contain some component of the supernatural, a belief in something unknowable outside the bounds of the natural world that we can never understand.

If belief system does not contain a belief in the supernatural, such as the belief that people would do well to practice the Golden Rule in some form, that is simply a belief in the value of an ethical system, not a religion.

If you believe in gods, but think that they are crazy and fickle, you may not have any faith in them, but like the ancient Greeks and Romans, you would still be religious, no? It would depend on how we define "faith." Some say that religions are "faiths."

Definition 1 or 2?

faith
[fāTH]

NOUN
1. complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
"this restores one's faith in politicians"
synonyms:
trust · belief · confidence · conviction · credence · reliance · [more]

2. strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.
synonyms:
religion · church · sect · denomination · persuasion · [more]
a system of religious belief.
"the Christian faith"
synonyms:
faith · religion · religious belief(s) · religious persuasion · [more]

By definition 1. you can have faith in science, but not be religious.
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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by Lance Kennedy » Thu Mar 28, 2019 8:37 am

Yes,Tom.

But science is not based on faith. It is based on empiricism. Data that is collected by experiments that can be replicated, giving the same answer. Religion, however, is based on faith. Yes, it normally contains a supernatural element, but that is not strictly necessary.

Theravada buddhism, the dominant religion in both Sri Lanka and Myanmar, does not require anything supernatural. Instead it is based on a faith in the human capability for a kind of self improvement, in which it is possible for someone in this life, to achieve spiritual enlightenment. I do not really know what their hypothetical enlightenment is actually like. I get the impression that it is kind of like a permanent drug high without the drug. But what the heck.

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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:55 am

"You can have faith in science......." aka: a religion by landrews special made up definitions and your inability to spot the subject of a sentence.

Demonstrating the error of not using the dictionary.
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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by landrew » Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:52 pm

Language is tool for conveying thoughts, and dictionaries are a tool for seeing what others think a word means. A word means what you intend it to mean, in the context of the language a wordsmith chooses to convey ideas and feelings. Anyone who writes using a dictionary will produce the blandest and most uninteresting writings ever.
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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by Lausten » Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:28 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:56 am
You missed the point, Lauston.

The point is that language is in a constant state of change, and offering new word meanings is not some kind of crime. It is just part of the linguistic dynamic.
I could write a thesis on this, but you're a troll, so you don't get that. He didn't offer a new meaning. The meaning already exists, look it up

gu·ru
/ˈɡo͝oro͞o/
noun
(in Hinduism and Buddhism) a spiritual teacher, especially one who imparts initiation.
synonyms: spiritual teacher, teacher, tutor, sage, counselor, mentor, guiding light, spiritual leader, leader, master; More
* each of the ten first leaders of the Sikh religion.
* an influential teacher or popular expert.
"a management guru"

synonyms: expert, authority, leading light, professional, master, pundit; More

The problem is, the definition we were using was the first one, the primary one, clearly indicated by context. Landrew switched to "influential teacher", making his comment out of context, off topic and irrelevant to what I said.
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Re: No One Really Believes Their Religion

Post by Lausten » Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:33 pm

landrew wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:52 pm
Language is tool for conveying thoughts, and dictionaries are a tool for seeing what others think a word means. A word means what you intend it to mean, in the context of the language a wordsmith chooses to convey ideas and feelings. Anyone who writes using a dictionary will produce the blandest and most uninteresting writings ever.
I only refer to the dictionary when someone starts claiming that whatever meaning they use is the meaning that I should have understood. Words like "faith" and "guru" require some context to know which definition/meaning you are using and sometimes they require additional explanation. You didn't provide any of that.
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