Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

What you think about how you think.
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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:33 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:52 am
You can certainly Speculate about what you can't See.
Thats what I said.
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:52 am
We can't See Consciousness in the Neurons.
You can't see consciousness anywhere. Like gravity: only its effects by which its existence is inferred except that consciousness has that self validation for each individual.......except for those who don't. They are pointed out as obnoxious weeds.
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:52 am
Must speculate about how the Neurons produce the Conscious Experiences. Speculation is all there is when it comes to Consciousness.
...yes, and then with all speculations, we then test them using the Scientific Method.

Don't we?
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Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:41 am

SteveKlinko wrote: Your arrogant assumption that you think you know what was really going on before the Big Bang is laughable.
Before the Big Bang there was a singularity. Didn't you know?

We have hard evidence through cosmic background radiation, the homogeneity of the universe, the shape of the universe and the mathematics.


You simply don't know what the Big Bang or singularity was at all. Your religious claim is that a magical consciousness existed outside the singularity, cuased the Big Bang, and guided evolution across the universe (God). You ignore all evidence that doesn't fit your religion. :lol: :lol:

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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:43 am

There ya go again Matt: calling your own best guess an established fact. I guess...............as performance art........it won't run on Broadway.
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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:44 am

SteveKlinko wrote: You can certainly Speculate about what you can't See.
Not if we have other existing evidence. You are simply ignoring any evidence that doesn't fit your religious claim.

The whole basis of science ifs the "scientific method". A hypothesis must be falsifiable. Your religious claims are immediately falsified by existing known evidence.. Bad luck :lol: :lol:


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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:46 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist" wrote: There ya go again Matt: calling your own best guess an established fact. I guess...............as performance art........it won't run on Broadway.
Bobbo. You also don''t know what the singularity or Big Bang is either. You are a stupid as Steve Klinko. :lol: :lol:

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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:54 am

singularity: ok. This will be fun. My understanding BEFORE the google event: S refers to two different things. One, your topic, is the time or the status when all space, time, energy existed in what is called the S which could be thought of as "a point" without coordinates or "extension." Very theoretical that nothing and how it came to be something. the other singularity is the coming event when artificial intelligence either supercedes human intelligence or become self aware and self directed. It has more flavors than the cosmology S.

Now, I'll go google it and report back if it warrants the effort. Thing is: I don't care who says what by definition there was no "time" before the singularity. We can say it just like we can "say" outside the singularity but the very point and purpose of the S is to deny that.....or explain it....or whatever no one understands it to begin with holy catechism you wish to clothe it in. Radiation?.....are you confusing that with Hawking Radiation re Black Holes??? That would be your best save: that you tripped on your ego again.
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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by landrew » Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:01 am

Popper was quite clear:
...some disciplines that have claimed scientific validity—e.g., astrology, metaphysics, Marxism, and psychoanalysis —are not empirical sciences, because their subject matter cannot be falsified.
Certainly consciousness can be included in that group.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:01 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: My understanding BEFORE the google event:
"Google?"

You really don't have a clue do you?
:lol: :lol:

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Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:05 am

landrew wrote: Certainly consciousness can be included in that group.
No. Steve Klinko makes a very specific claim about a consciouness (God) existing 13.8 billion years ago "outside of the singularity". That means it isn't a singularity and the hard evidence that falsifies Klinko's claim is that there there can only have a singularity.

(You do understand there was no time or space "outside of the singularity?)

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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:27 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:01 am
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: My understanding BEFORE the google event:
"Google?"

You really don't have a clue do you?
:lol: :lol:
Yes google. As if you were the singularity: outside authority.
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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by landrew » Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:30 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:05 am

(You do understand there was no time or space "outside of the singularity?)
It's more like I don't care.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:33 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: My understanding BEFORE the google event:
Matthew Ellard wrote: "Google?" You really don't have a clue do you? :lol: :lol:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Yes google. As if you were the singularity: outside authority.
Well, go be a good boy and look up the "Google event" that created the universe. I will wait here. . :lol:

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:34 am

landrew" wrote: It's more like I don't care.
Thanks for leaving this thread.

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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Feb 18, 2019 3:09 am

The google event: where I check my own memory and druthers and confirm what I think with an outside objective source that others can link to instead of resting on my own egotism, lies, mischaracterizations, partial quotes, misdirection and refusal to admit error:

singularity:
Technological singularity - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity

The technological singularity (also, simply, the singularity) is the hypothesis that the invention of artificial superintelligence (ASI) will abruptly trigger runaway technological growth, resulting in unfathomable changes to human civilization.
‎Superintelligence · ‎Singularitarianism · ‎IJ Good
ok....thats what I said.

Initial singularity:
a singularity of seemingly infinite density thought to have contained all of the mass and space-time of the Universe[1] before quantum fluctuations caused it to rapidly expand in the Big Bang and subsequent inflation, creating the present-day Universe.[2] The initial singularity is part of the Planck epoch, the earliest period of time in the history of the universe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Initial_singularity
Gee, also what I said.

Say Matt: what is it that I don't understand about the singularity????..........No reason to pick up on my private allusion...but someone less self involved could easily do so. If I had said Dictionary Event .... would that have made it more obvious to you? Poor Matt: trapped at the center of his own black hole. Better ideas cross the event horizon and get shredded. Ha, ha...............
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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by Dimebag » Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:04 am

landrew wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:01 am
Popper was quite clear:
...some disciplines that have claimed scientific validity—e.g., astrology, metaphysics, Marxism, and psychoanalysis —are not empirical sciences, because their subject matter cannot be falsified.
Certainly consciousness can be included in that group.
Therefore what, it doesn’t exist? Or just that because it can’t be studied using our current methods there is no situation where it could be studied and understood by physical means?

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Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:11 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Say Matt: what is it that I don't understand about the singularity????

Absolutely everything. You simply don't have a clue. You didn't even read what you copied and pasted.

If the initial singularity had all space time curved around it to a zero point ( meaning there was nothing outside the singularity ) then how does a consciousness exist outside it? :lol: :lol:

What makes Steve Klinko an absolute idiot, is that Steve Klinko claims all consciousness is evolved, yet places his magical consciousness (God) at the start of the universe before anything existed to actually evolve.

Like you, Steve Klinko posts gibberish that "sounds right", as you two haven't got a clue what the words actually mean. :lol:

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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by landrew » Mon Feb 18, 2019 2:55 pm

Dimebag wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:04 am
landrew wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:01 am
Popper was quite clear:
...some disciplines that have claimed scientific validity—e.g., astrology, metaphysics, Marxism, and psychoanalysis —are not empirical sciences, because their subject matter cannot be falsified.
Certainly consciousness can be included in that group.
Therefore what, it doesn’t exist? Or just that because it can’t be studied using our current methods there is no situation where it could be studied and understood by physical means?
It fairly clear what it means. It's not falsifiable by empirical science. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by SteveKlinko » Fri Feb 22, 2019 1:41 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:33 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:52 am
You can certainly Speculate about what you can't See.
Thats what I said.
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:52 am
We can't See Consciousness in the Neurons.
You can't see consciousness anywhere. Like gravity: only its effects by which its existence is inferred except that consciousness has that self validation for each individual.......except for those who don't. They are pointed out as obnoxious weeds.
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:52 am
Must speculate about how the Neurons produce the Conscious Experiences. Speculation is all there is when it comes to Consciousness.
...yes, and then with all speculations, we then test them using the Scientific Method.

Don't we?
Exactly. Designing the proper test is the hard part though.

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by SteveKlinko » Fri Feb 22, 2019 1:47 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:41 am
SteveKlinko wrote: Your arrogant assumption that you think you know what was really going on before the Big Bang is laughable.
Before the Big Bang there was a singularity. Didn't you know?

We have hard evidence through cosmic background radiation, the homogeneity of the universe, the shape of the universe and the mathematics.


You simply don't know what the Big Bang or singularity was at all. Your religious claim is that a magical consciousness existed outside the singularity, cuased the Big Bang, and guided evolution across the universe (God). You ignore all evidence that doesn't fit your religion. :lol: :lol:
When I say Consciousness might have existed before the Big Bang I am not saying there was some sort of Conscious Individual Being there. You are just making your own extrapolations. But there probably was the Redness of Red and the Agony of Pain there though. The Cosmic Background Radiation and the other things you list do not prove the Singularity. It's one thing to be very very compact and another thing to be an actual Singularity. You don't understand the implications of a true Singularity. Think more Deeply about what an actual Singularity is. You should start with the Mathematical concept of Singularity. Read a Calculus book. Then apply that to a Physical Universe. You are a fool if you think you really understand that.

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by SteveKlinko » Fri Feb 22, 2019 1:50 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:05 am
landrew wrote: Certainly consciousness can be included in that group.
No. Steve Klinko makes a very specific claim about a consciouness (God) existing 13.8 billion years ago "outside of the singularity". That means it isn't a singularity and the hard evidence that falsifies Klinko's claim is that there there can only have a singularity.

(You do understand there was no time or space "outside of the singularity?)
I make no such Claim about any kind of God. You are a Liar and a Shallow thinker.

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by SteveKlinko » Fri Feb 22, 2019 1:58 pm

landrew wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:30 am
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:05 am

(You do understand there was no time or space "outside of the singularity?)
It's more like I don't care.
The proposed Conscious Space from The Inter Mind is specifically presented as not being any kind of Physical Space. Conscious Space is something new that has properties in and of itself. All we know is that for example, the Redness of Red and the Agony of Pain exist there. Maybe there is no such thing as Conscious Space but for now, given our limited understanding of Consciousness, I think it is a good idea to give Conscious Experiences like Redness and Pain a place to Exist.

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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by SteveKlinko » Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:04 pm

FYI: The Technological Singularity is not the same thing as the Singularity that hypothetically existed before the Big Bang.

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Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Feb 23, 2019 1:43 am

SteveKlinko wrote: When I say Consciousness might have existed before the Big Bang I am not saying there was some sort of Conscious Individual Being there.
There was nothing outside the initial singularity at alll either physical or magical. No information of any sort was outside of the singularity for the simple reason there was "no outside". The quantization of the singularity caused the Big Bang and created both the dimensions and time.
SteveKlinko wrote:But there probably was the Redness of Red
No. No waveforms existed before the Big Bang, you complete idiot. You can't have waveforms in a one dimensional singularity.

SteveKlinko wrote:The Cosmic Background Radiation and the other things you list do not prove the Singularity.
Yes they do. The reason the CBR is uniform across the entire universe is because the singularity was homogeneous and thus your "magic consciousness god" cannot have existed. :lol: :lol:

Q & A: Why is the Microwave Background so Uniform?
https://scienceblogs.com/startswithaban ... so-uniform

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Feb 23, 2019 1:47 am

SteveKlinko wrote: The proposed Conscious Space from The Inter Mind is specifically presented as not being any kind of Physical Space.
You complete idiot, Your "magic consciousness god" had to have interacted with normal physics as you claimed it guided all evolution in the universe. That means it had to interact in normal physics.

You are now contradicting your own religious claims.

Why are you so stupid?
:lol: :lol:

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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by mirror93 » Tue Feb 26, 2019 11:40 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:55 pm
I think consciousness IS an experience. Its category remains an emergent property of the brain which is being studied/measured from various different aspects. So, its is a non-material thing in itself but the "self awareness" property of it makes it an experience too. Its what LSD trips and beer for myself is all about.........or pain killers too? Or thrill rides, movies, first kiss. etc. If those aren't "experiences" we enjoy observing/reflecting on, what would they be?
Nope, consciousness is not the same as experience, it makes experience possible. Consciousness is a center where cognitive algorithms, heuristics, and higher-order processing take place. It is a location inside the Black Box that is responsible for the analysis of internal and external stimuli and output
F.

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by machinegun1 » Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:24 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 10:49 pm
SteveKlinko" wrote:If you did have some Chain of Logic or Experiment that would prove that Neural Activity is Conscious Activity you would have provided it a long time ago.
We did. You ran away. :lol: :lol:

10,000,000,000,000 colour seeing animals process terabytes of colour information every second. Under your fantasy belief system, all this raw data is sucked out of the animals physical brains by a mythical non-physical consciousness "thingy" in another dimension. This mythical non-physical consciouness "thingy", in another dimension, then converts this data into colour and then the revised colour data is sent back to 10,000,000,000,000 colour seeing animals in our dimension.

Yet scientists have not observed any information being sucked out of any physical brain. Nor have scientist observed any time gap in physical brains while this information is being processed in another dimension. Nor have scientists observed terabytes of data being sent back into physical brains.

QED the neurons are producing the colour representations themselves.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Never once Steve has claimed that.
The fact that consciousness and neural activity are completely distinct and not even related is not even debatable, it's a fact.
What do you mean by "mythical"?? What is mythical about your consciousness? Do you consider your consciousness "mythical"?
Fact is, this forum is preaching new age in a materialistic monistic reductionist physicalist philosophy, each member here has already made up their minds and no matter what, they will defend their cause. Gord and Matthew seems to be both into physicalism, hard materialist and oneness through physicalism and materiliasm. And both of you have no clue how humans see color and how our brains process what we see.
Fact is, what do you mean by "non-physical" and "mythical"? It's not even physical or non physical, it's beyond any of what you know about dimensions, there are non-material things all around you, or not around... https://www.thoughtco.com/examples-of-t ... ter-608349 . You know that, if proven the standard theory of physics is incorrect, which it is, after all, it only creates problems in quantum physics, and etc, that can be solved by changing all theories, as Sean Carrol has spoken...such as light being what we once thought, as it doesn't fit into anything non-physical and can't be explained in the standard terms..by light, I'm giving only one example, there are more ;
http://www.iflscience.com/physics/lhc-f ... l-physics/
https://www.iflscience.com/physics/thre ... ard-model/
https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/201 ... ed/7670338

The guy from "your inner fish", if you assume evolution, you HAVE To understand our EYES evolved to see color, the brain just interprets, EVIDENT by the fact that Neil Shubin (the evolutionist believer) explains how apes can see the same colors humans see when the scientists introduced 'opsins' in the ape's eye , opsins in the eye are responsible for detection of external color, if this had to do with only HUMANS having the ability because our brains "evolved" in a certain way and that only our brains could see that "specific color", then the ape could NEVER see the color humans see, as their brains didn't have evolve to see that color, so no opsin being put in the ape's eye would make they see the color, but that doesn't happen. This totally refutes all your previous claims about color having something to do with our brains, or with us, or aliens , or anything of that sort.

Your theory of some sort of magical dimension trying to convert colors makes no sense at all, this is totally stupid, you're putting words into Steve's posts, he never claimed such thing. I don't know about what Steve is trying to say, but ALL colors existed, if you assume evolution and how we perceive color, colors existed even before humans were here, no magical-color dimension and aliens sending signals to reality was needed......... [even though colors are pretty much magical if you ask me, try LSD, some magical colors from "other dimension" kicks in, not to mention DMT, it's beyond anything you imagine... it's far more real than colors you see in these places you know and go......

You being an entity that has consciousness, there is no consciousness that is "mythical" or "non-mythical", entity-you is not non physical or physical, you cannot see your true self with your eyes, you are in fact a thingy-persona, but you are not a thingy shaped as a persona dependent of your body, this is far beyond dualism or pluralism, you see your body, never your true self while you're in the physical dimension. Try DMT to see your true essence when out of the physical dimensions........when DMT take you outside to a distinct dimension, non interactive, you'll see how you see with your mind eyes, not with your physical eyes, but your physical eyes allow you to see in the physical plane... {people blind from birth without eyes and with damaged visual cortex could see during DMT in a non interactive dimension, no explanation for how this happened and no magical walt disney was needed for it... but a dimension that doesn't interact a single bit of connection with ours}, that's not to say it's "non-local" or "outside the physical realm", that's even worse, you'll hate that, it's not even "outside our physical realm" it's even distinct from any "outside of it", it's beyond non-interaction, I don't know about NDE, never had one, but there are not explanations until you take DMT yourself.

And none of that has anything to do with dualism, pluralism or us being non-local or our consciousness not being the same as Neural Activity. But your posts clearly shows you the need to invoke such physicalist oneness to anything you say, which clearly shows your religious devotion to your naturalistic oneness physicalist materialistc religion.

Your consciousness is not part of or dependent on your brain.
Steve is right, that's so obvious you hate Placid's non dualism but you are arguing oneness through hard materialism, reductionism and physicalist philosophies. Including your fascination upon the mythical book for Darwin's.

people claim there was a Gd, Gd was an entity, but we don't need him anymore.
There is no Gd inside anything,nor consciousness... but consciousnessess existed along with all matter.. .... individualized consciousnessess, isolated events, distinct from each other...may prove Gd doesn't exist or was not needed...
but never once Darwinian evolution was true, some other form of evolution has to enter into scene..
that only shows how our individualized consciousnessess are not connected to each other. I'm not placid, before you claim I am. I know I'm a person and I have a body, I don't share PLacid's beliefs about God and you and me being connected to each other or shared consciousness. I know we all live in our subjective world, inside our minds but dependent on our bodies. Go within, you'll see more than what you think you know to be a blockage... You're stuck
:redwine:

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by mirror93 » Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:43 pm

machinegun1 wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:24 am
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 10:49 pm
SteveKlinko" wrote:If you did have some Chain of Logic or Experiment that would prove that Neural Activity is Conscious Activity you would have provided it a long time ago.
We did. You ran away. :lol: :lol:

10,000,000,000,000 colour seeing animals process terabytes of colour information every second. Under your fantasy belief system, all this raw data is sucked out of the animals physical brains by a mythical non-physical consciousness "thingy" in another dimension. This mythical non-physical consciouness "thingy", in another dimension, then converts this data into colour and then the revised colour data is sent back to 10,000,000,000,000 colour seeing animals in our dimension.

Yet scientists have not observed any information being sucked out of any physical brain. Nor have scientist observed any time gap in physical brains while this information is being processed in another dimension. Nor have scientists observed terabytes of data being sent back into physical brains.

QED the neurons are producing the colour representations themselves.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Never once Steve has claimed that.
The fact that consciousness and neural activity are completely distinct and not even related is not even debatable, it's a fact.
What do you mean by "mythical"?? What is mythical about your consciousness? Do you consider your consciousness "mythical"?
Fact is, this forum is preaching new age in a materialistic monistic reductionist physicalist philosophy, each member here has already made up their minds and no matter what, they will defend their cause. Gord and Matthew seems to be both into physicalism, hard materialist and oneness through physicalism and materiliasm. And both of you have no clue how humans see color and how our brains process what we see.
Fact is, what do you mean by "non-physical" and "mythical"? It's not even physical or non physical, it's beyond any of what you know about dimensions, there are non-material things all around you, or not around... https://www.thoughtco.com/examples-of-t ... ter-608349 . You know that, if proven the standard theory of physics is incorrect, which it is, after all, it only creates problems in quantum physics, and etc, that can be solved by changing all theories, as Sean Carrol has spoken...such as light being what we once thought, as it doesn't fit into anything non-physical and can't be explained in the standard terms..by light, I'm giving only one example, there are more ;
http://www.iflscience.com/physics/lhc-f ... l-physics/
https://www.iflscience.com/physics/thre ... ard-model/
https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/201 ... ed/7670338

The guy from "your inner fish", if you assume evolution, you HAVE To understand our EYES evolved to see color, the brain just interprets, EVIDENT by the fact that Neil Shubin (the evolutionist believer) explains how apes can see the same colors humans see when the scientists introduced 'opsins' in the ape's eye , opsins in the eye are responsible for detection of external color, if this had to do with only HUMANS having the ability because our brains "evolved" in a certain way and that only our brains could see that "specific color", then the ape could NEVER see the color humans see, as their brains didn't have evolve to see that color, so no opsin being put in the ape's eye would make they see the color, but that doesn't happen. This totally refutes all your previous claims about color having something to do with our brains, or with us, or aliens , or anything of that sort.

Your theory of some sort of magical dimension trying to convert colors makes no sense at all, this is totally stupid, you're putting words into Steve's posts, he never claimed such thing. I don't know about what Steve is trying to say, but ALL colors existed, if you assume evolution and how we perceive color, colors existed even before humans were here, no magical-color dimension and aliens sending signals to reality was needed......... [even though colors are pretty much magical if you ask me, try LSD, some magical colors from "other dimension" kicks in, not to mention DMT, it's beyond anything you imagine... it's far more real than colors you see in these places you know and go......

You being an entity that has consciousness, there is no consciousness that is "mythical" or "non-mythical", entity-you is not non physical or physical, you cannot see your true self with your eyes, you are in fact a thingy-persona, but you are not a thingy shaped as a persona dependent of your body, this is far beyond dualism or pluralism, you see your body, never your true self while you're in the physical dimension. Try DMT to see your true essence when out of the physical dimensions........when DMT take you outside to a distinct dimension, non interactive, you'll see how you see with your mind eyes, not with your physical eyes, but your physical eyes allow you to see in the physical plane... {people blind from birth without eyes and with damaged visual cortex could see during DMT in a non interactive dimension, no explanation for how this happened and no magical walt disney was needed for it... but a dimension that doesn't interact a single bit of connection with ours}, that's not to say it's "non-local" or "outside the physical realm", that's even worse, you'll hate that, it's not even "outside our physical realm" it's even distinct from any "outside of it", it's beyond non-interaction, I don't know about NDE, never had one, but there are not explanations until you take DMT yourself.

And none of that has anything to do with dualism, pluralism or us being non-local or our consciousness not being the same as Neural Activity. But your posts clearly shows you the need to invoke such physicalist oneness to anything you say, which clearly shows your religious devotion to your naturalistic oneness physicalist materialistc religion.

Your consciousness is not part of or dependent on your brain.
Steve is right, that's so obvious you hate Placid's non dualism but you are arguing oneness through hard materialism, reductionism and physicalist philosophies. Including your fascination upon the mythical book for Darwin's.

people claim there was a Gd, Gd was an entity, but we don't need him anymore.
There is no Gd inside anything,nor consciousness... but consciousnessess existed along with all matter.. .... individualized consciousnessess, isolated events, distinct from each other...may prove Gd doesn't exist or was not needed...
but never once Darwinian evolution was true, some other form of evolution has to enter into scene..
that only shows how our individualized consciousnessess are not connected to each other. I'm not placid, before you claim I am. I know I'm a person and I have a body, I don't share PLacid's beliefs about God and you and me being connected to each other or shared consciousness. I know we all live in our subjective world, inside our minds but dependent on our bodies. Go within, you'll see more than what you think you know to be a blockage... You're stuck
:redwine:
Our eyes evolve to see color. The more cells to detect you have, the more you see what's 'there', that's evolution for us

But NOW You simply assumed you believe in evolution. Our eyes evolved to see what is there, the cells evolved in a certain way so that we could see what's there may be for evo reasons..

Decide what you believe
F.

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Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:06 am

Placid AKA machinegun1 wrote: Never once Steve has claimed that.
Yes he did. As his magical consciousness in another dimension is converting electromagnetic radiation, in our dimension into "red" and colours in another dimension, and sending it back, then there are billions of billion of terabytes of information being send back and forth every second. You simply didn't have the brains to follow that conversation. :lol:
Placid AKA machinegun1 wrote: You know that, if proven the standard theory of physics is incorrect,
Show us where the standard model is wrong. You can't can you? You have the science knowledge of a snail pellet. :lol:
Placid AKA machinegun1 wrote: you HAVE To understand our EYES evolved to see color,
Eyes evolved to discern different electromagetic radiation frequencies. The brain evolved colours to represent the different frequencies. Try harder next time. :lol: :lol:

Placid AKA machinegun1 wrote: Your theory of some sort of magical dimension trying to convert colors makes no sense at all,
That is Steve Klinko's theory and not mine, you complete idiot.

Placid? Why are you so stupid? :lol:

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by mirror93 » Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:32 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:06 am
Placid AKA machinegun1 wrote: Never once Steve has claimed that.
Yes he did. As his magical consciousness in another dimension is converting electromagnetic radiation, in our dimension into "red" and colours in another dimension, and sending it back, then there are billions of billion of terabytes of information being send back and forth every second. You simply didn't have the brains to follow that conversation. :lol:
:lol: :lol:
Isn't that some freebill's bs?
F.

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by SteveKlinko » Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:02 pm

machinegun1 wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:24 am
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 10:49 pm
SteveKlinko" wrote:If you did have some Chain of Logic or Experiment that would prove that Neural Activity is Conscious Activity you would have provided it a long time ago.
We did. You ran away. :lol: :lol:

10,000,000,000,000 colour seeing animals process terabytes of colour information every second. Under your fantasy belief system, all this raw data is sucked out of the animals physical brains by a mythical non-physical consciousness "thingy" in another dimension. This mythical non-physical consciouness "thingy", in another dimension, then converts this data into colour and then the revised colour data is sent back to 10,000,000,000,000 colour seeing animals in our dimension.

Yet scientists have not observed any information being sucked out of any physical brain. Nor have scientist observed any time gap in physical brains while this information is being processed in another dimension. Nor have scientists observed terabytes of data being sent back into physical brains.

QED the neurons are producing the colour representations themselves.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Never once Steve has claimed that.
The fact that consciousness and neural activity are completely distinct and not even related is not even debatable, it's a fact.
What do you mean by "mythical"?? What is mythical about your consciousness? Do you consider your consciousness "mythical"?
Fact is, this forum is preaching new age in a materialistic monistic reductionist physicalist philosophy, each member here has already made up their minds and no matter what, they will defend their cause. Gord and Matthew seems to be both into physicalism, hard materialist and oneness through physicalism and materiliasm. And both of you have no clue how humans see color and how our brains process what we see.
Fact is, what do you mean by "non-physical" and "mythical"? It's not even physical or non physical, it's beyond any of what you know about dimensions, there are non-material things all around you, or not around... https://www.thoughtco.com/examples-of-t ... ter-608349 . You know that, if proven the standard theory of physics is incorrect, which it is, after all, it only creates problems in quantum physics, and etc, that can be solved by changing all theories, as Sean Carrol has spoken...such as light being what we once thought, as it doesn't fit into anything non-physical and can't be explained in the standard terms..by light, I'm giving only one example, there are more ;
http://www.iflscience.com/physics/lhc-f ... l-physics/
https://www.iflscience.com/physics/thre ... ard-model/
https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/201 ... ed/7670338

The guy from "your inner fish", if you assume evolution, you HAVE To understand our EYES evolved to see color, the brain just interprets, EVIDENT by the fact that Neil Shubin (the evolutionist believer) explains how apes can see the same colors humans see when the scientists introduced 'opsins' in the ape's eye , opsins in the eye are responsible for detection of external color, if this had to do with only HUMANS having the ability because our brains "evolved" in a certain way and that only our brains could see that "specific color", then the ape could NEVER see the color humans see, as their brains didn't have evolve to see that color, so no opsin being put in the ape's eye would make they see the color, but that doesn't happen. This totally refutes all your previous claims about color having something to do with our brains, or with us, or aliens , or anything of that sort.

Your theory of some sort of magical dimension trying to convert colors makes no sense at all, this is totally stupid, you're putting words into Steve's posts, he never claimed such thing. I don't know about what Steve is trying to say, but ALL colors existed, if you assume evolution and how we perceive color, colors existed even before humans were here, no magical-color dimension and aliens sending signals to reality was needed......... [even though colors are pretty much magical if you ask me, try LSD, some magical colors from "other dimension" kicks in, not to mention DMT, it's beyond anything you imagine... it's far more real than colors you see in these places you know and go......

You being an entity that has consciousness, there is no consciousness that is "mythical" or "non-mythical", entity-you is not non physical or physical, you cannot see your true self with your eyes, you are in fact a thingy-persona, but you are not a thingy shaped as a persona dependent of your body, this is far beyond dualism or pluralism, you see your body, never your true self while you're in the physical dimension. Try DMT to see your true essence when out of the physical dimensions........when DMT take you outside to a distinct dimension, non interactive, you'll see how you see with your mind eyes, not with your physical eyes, but your physical eyes allow you to see in the physical plane... {people blind from birth without eyes and with damaged visual cortex could see during DMT in a non interactive dimension, no explanation for how this happened and no magical walt disney was needed for it... but a dimension that doesn't interact a single bit of connection with ours}, that's not to say it's "non-local" or "outside the physical realm", that's even worse, you'll hate that, it's not even "outside our physical realm" it's even distinct from any "outside of it", it's beyond non-interaction, I don't know about NDE, never had one, but there are not explanations until you take DMT yourself.

And none of that has anything to do with dualism, pluralism or us being non-local or our consciousness not being the same as Neural Activity. But your posts clearly shows you the need to invoke such physicalist oneness to anything you say, which clearly shows your religious devotion to your naturalistic oneness physicalist materialistc religion.

Your consciousness is not part of or dependent on your brain.
Steve is right, that's so obvious you hate Placid's non dualism but you are arguing oneness through hard materialism, reductionism and physicalist philosophies. Including your fascination upon the mythical book for Darwin's.

people claim there was a Gd, Gd was an entity, but we don't need him anymore.
There is no Gd inside anything,nor consciousness... but consciousnessess existed along with all matter.. .... individualized consciousnessess, isolated events, distinct from each other...may prove Gd doesn't exist or was not needed...
but never once Darwinian evolution was true, some other form of evolution has to enter into scene..
that only shows how our individualized consciousnessess are not connected to each other. I'm not placid, before you claim I am. I know I'm a person and I have a body, I don't share PLacid's beliefs about God and you and me being connected to each other or shared consciousness. I know we all live in our subjective world, inside our minds but dependent on our bodies. Go within, you'll see more than what you think you know to be a blockage... You're stuck
:redwine:
Good thoughts, and thank you for the support.

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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by Cadmusteeth » Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:34 pm

So if your conscious thingamajig isn't in some other dimension, where is it then? You haven't been very forthcoming with that detail and seem to wave it off as a quality of your "hard problem". If you can't falsify it and still claim it's a real thing, you're just jumping the shark. That's not good science. It just looks like a BS claim made to sell crappy t-shirts.

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Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:35 am

Cadmusteeth wrote:So if your conscious thingamajig isn't in some other dimension, where is it then?
You can see Steve Klinko changing his claim with each post.

Klinko : "The alien consciousness is in another dimension that we cant interact with!"
Skeptics : "...but you said it guided evolution in the universe so it must be able to interact with our normal dimensions"
Klinko : "Well yes it can, so it sort of does exist in both dimensions"
Skeptics : "....then why can't we test for it or observe it interacting?"
Klinko : "Stop lying. I said it only exists in another dimension that we can't interact with!"

This is why Steve Klinko never set out his theory as a hypothesis. He is claiming numerous contradictory claims, simultaneously. :D

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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by Cadmusteeth » Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:19 pm

And then denying he said it to weasel out of any criticisms lobbed against them.
Last edited by Cadmusteeth on Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by SteveKlinko » Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:53 pm

Cadmusteeth wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:34 pm
So if your conscious thingamajig isn't in some other dimension, where is it then? You haven't been very forthcoming with that detail and seem to wave it off as a quality of your "hard problem". If you can't falsify it and still claim it's a real thing, you're just jumping the shark. That's not good science. It just looks like a BS claim made to sell crappy t-shirts.
Do you think for example the Redness of Red and the Agony of Pain are not real things? If they are real things then what are they? Think more Deeply about the Redness itself. Think more Deeply about the Pain itself. These Conscious experiences are not Illusions. They are something. What are they? I'm just trying to get people to think about the Conscious Phenomenon of these things in a Deeper way. You cannot, as some people on this thread have done, just try to ignore these things and minimize their importance.

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by SteveKlinko » Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:59 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:35 am
Cadmusteeth wrote:So if your conscious thingamajig isn't in some other dimension, where is it then?
You can see Steve Klinko changing his claim with each post.

Klinko : "The alien consciousness is in another dimension that we cant interact with!"
Skeptics : "...but you said it guided evolution in the universe so it must be able to interact with our normal dimensions"
Klinko : "Well yes it can, so it sort of does exist in both dimensions"
Skeptics : "....then why can't we test for it or observe it interacting?"
Klinko : "Stop lying. I said it only exists in another dimension that we can't interact with!"

This is why Steve Klinko never set out his theory as a hypothesis. He is claiming numerous contradictory claims, simultaneously. :D
From the Inter Mind website:

This Conscious Red Experience (the Experience of Redness) is how we Detect Red Light from the external Physical World. Unfortunately the experience of Redness, at least for now, can not be found in the Brain or explained by Brain Activity. Further investigation shows the Experience of Redness cannot be found in any kind of Matter, Energy, or Space so we must conclude that it is something different than any of these things. Redness is in a whole different Category of Phenomena than any known and existent Scientific Category of Phenomena. Let us qualify the Space we know and call it Physical Space and then introduce a new Conscious Space as the place where our Conscious experiences like Redness occur.

Conscious Space might eventually be found to be a component of ordinary Physical Space, but until Science figures out how to deal with Consciousness we should think about Conscious Space as simply a Tool that allows Conscious Phenomena to have a place to exist for the sake of discussion. Conscious Space might seem like a strange thing right now but someday it could be an integral part of our Scientific understanding. The Conscious Space concept will be developed throughout the Inter Mind paper and in the following topics.

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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Mar 18, 2019 2:33 am

SteveKlinko wrote: I'm just trying to get people to think about the Conscious Phenomenon of these things in a Deeper way.
You are lying. All humans and many many other animals and insects represent different electromagnetic frequencies, in their physical brains as colour. This is an evolved mechanism.

As DNA is the only thing carrying evolved genes, and DNA can only produce varieties of protein chains, there is no genetic mechanism to create "other dimensions" which is your debunked religious claim.

You have known this for some months and refuse to acknowledge that you crappy religious claim has been thoroughly debunked.
:lol:

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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by Dimebag » Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:12 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 2:33 am
SteveKlinko wrote: I'm just trying to get people to think about the Conscious Phenomenon of these things in a Deeper way.
You are lying. All humans and many many other animals and insects represent different electromagnetic frequencies, in their physical brains as colour. This is an evolved mechanism.

As DNA is the only thing carrying evolved genes, and DNA can only produce varieties of protein chains, there is no genetic mechanism to create "other dimensions" which is your debunked religious claim.

You have known this for some months and refuse to acknowledge that you crappy religious claim has been thoroughly debunked.
:lol:
I’m not sure you can entirely attribute the other dimensions thing to Steve, as I remember it only became a talking point when I proposed my interpretation of Steve’s intermind as being some kind of other dimension, unless I am mistaken. He may agree with this although I am not sure. Steve, can we get a confirmation as to whether this is the correct interpretation of the intermind? Or is that just one possibility, the other being that it is wholly in and of the brain, no separate spacial dimensions required.

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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by Cadmusteeth » Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:52 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:53 pm
Cadmusteeth wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:34 pm
So if your conscious thingamajig isn't in some other dimension, where is it then? You haven't been very forthcoming with that detail and seem to wave it off as a quality of your "hard problem". If you can't falsify it and still claim it's a real thing, you're just jumping the shark. That's not good science. It just looks like a BS claim made to sell crappy t-shirts.
Do you think for example the Redness of Red and the Agony of Pain are not real things? If they are real things then what are they? Think more Deeply about the Redness itself. Think more Deeply about the Pain itself. These Conscious experiences are not Illusions. They are something. What are they? I'm just trying to get people to think about the Conscious Phenomenon of these things in a Deeper way. You cannot, as some people on this thread have done, just try to ignore these things and minimize their importance.
Not what I asked.

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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by SteveKlinko » Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:42 pm

Dimebag wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:12 am
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 2:33 am
SteveKlinko wrote: I'm just trying to get people to think about the Conscious Phenomenon of these things in a Deeper way.
You are lying. All humans and many many other animals and insects represent different electromagnetic frequencies, in their physical brains as colour. This is an evolved mechanism.

As DNA is the only thing carrying evolved genes, and DNA can only produce varieties of protein chains, there is no genetic mechanism to create "other dimensions" which is your debunked religious claim.

You have known this for some months and refuse to acknowledge that you crappy religious claim has been thoroughly debunked.
:lol:
I’m not sure you can entirely attribute the other dimensions thing to Steve, as I remember it only became a talking point when I proposed my interpretation of Steve’s intermind as being some kind of other dimension, unless I am mistaken. He may agree with this although I am not sure. Steve, can we get a confirmation as to whether this is the correct interpretation of the intermind? Or is that just one possibility, the other being that it is wholly in and of the brain, no separate spacial dimensions required.
I have always said that Conscious Space is not a Space like our Physical Space. I proposed Conscious Space in order to highlight the special nature of all Conscious Experience. Saying it is all in the Neurons was unacceptable without an Explanation. I had thought that giving Conscious Experience it's own Space would allow people to concentrate on the Conscious Experience itself without being Brick Walled with the it's all in the Neurons mantra of the Physicalists.

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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by SteveKlinko » Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:46 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 2:33 am
SteveKlinko wrote: I'm just trying to get people to think about the Conscious Phenomenon of these things in a Deeper way.
You are lying. All humans and many many other animals and insects represent different electromagnetic frequencies, in their physical brains as colour. This is an evolved mechanism.

As DNA is the only thing carrying evolved genes, and DNA can only produce varieties of protein chains, there is no genetic mechanism to create "other dimensions" which is your debunked religious claim.

You have known this for some months and refuse to acknowledge that you crappy religious claim has been thoroughly debunked.
:lol:
The fact that you are still talking about Electromagnetic Frequencies and DNA once again reveals your complete ignorance of what the issue even is. We are not talking about Electromagnetic Waves. Think more Deeply about the Redness of the Red that you See in your own Mind. We all must do this thinking on our own. It is obviously more difficult for some people. It is not possible to directly tell you. I can only suggest how to approach this understanding.