boeing 737 max 8

What does make the world turn?
psychiatry is a scam
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1645
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:23 am
Custom Title: eugenics never stopped

boeing 737 max 8

Post by psychiatry is a scam » Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:01 am

you tube recreate video about a plane crash -
to read about it is bad - to watch how and why is badder .
plane stalled / nose up - have to have nose down to restart .
33k feet ? and 15 minutes ? later :-(

another one - captain was sleeping , approach was too high - copilot asked 3 times to go around .
captain tried to land , actually touched the runway , and tried to abort :-(

video recreations are much better than words

anywho - looks like 737 max has software to override the nose up mistake -

plane will go into a nose dive on its own :-(
Last edited by psychiatry is a scam on Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 19285
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: After being pimped comes-----

Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:38 am

No link?............................
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 19285
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: After being pimped comes-----

Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:22 pm

I'm just seeing news reports on this. Coincidently, just saw an old show of "Why airplances Crash" and the issue was very similar: new automatic computer systems installed that override cockpit pilot inputs WITHOUT TELLING THE PILOTS ABOUT IT.

.............................what could go wrong?

ha, ha. I try to put myself "into the picture' given the information presented in these shows. I think I override my ego fairly well: I would have crashed in most of the situations as well. Nothing magic about changing the way an airplane flies AND NOT TELLING THE PILOTS ABOUT IT.

I blame Darwin, the AlreadyTooRich, No.............Management. Yeah, there's the ticket. Who's in charge of telling pilots about changes to their aircraft? He'd be gone in my organization.....................
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
landrew
Has No Life
Posts: 11248
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:51 am
Location: Fox Meadows

Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by landrew » Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:53 pm

Yes, once again, management is to blame for assuming that workers (in this case, pilots) are mindless drones who need to be given as little opportunity for using personal judgement as much as possible. Two crashes of the same aircraft in 5 months is alarming, and is the reason why 20 countries have grounded the Boeing 737 Max 8 so far.

Early speculation suggests that the flight control system causes the nose of the aircraft to pitch up more than normal after takeoff, and the crew, who hadn't been trained regarding this alarming feature were fighting to lower the nose of the plane, thinking something had gone wrong with the flight control system. Flight recorder analysis will reveal what actions the crew undertook before the crash. It's problematic that the findings of the previous crash had not yet been released, and therefore did nothing to inform pilots currently flying this aircraft of the potential problems.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

User avatar
Austin Harper
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5515
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2011 2:22 pm
Custom Title: Rock Chalk Astrohawk
Location: Detroit

Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by Austin Harper » Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:23 am

landrew wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:53 pm
Early speculation suggests...
Thanks, but I'll wait for the actual NTSB report. Also, that's the exact opposite of the problem in the Lion Air flight.
Dum ratio nos ducet, valebimus et multa bene geremus.

User avatar
landrew
Has No Life
Posts: 11248
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:51 am
Location: Fox Meadows

Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by landrew » Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:57 am

Austin Harper wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:23 am
landrew wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:53 pm
Early speculation suggests...
Thanks, but I'll wait for the actual NTSB report. Also, that's the exact opposite of the problem in the Lion Air flight.
Ah, a hard skeptic. Only hard data will do.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

psychiatry is a scam
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1645
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:23 am
Custom Title: eugenics never stopped

Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by psychiatry is a scam » Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:52 pm

landrew wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:57 am
Austin Harper wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:23 am
landrew wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:53 pm
Early speculation suggests...
Thanks, but I'll wait for the actual NTSB report. Also, that's the exact opposite of the problem in the Lion Air flight.
Ah, a hard skeptic. Only hard data will do.
I never let stuff like facts and statistics and reports get in my way . fools rush in , where ---

couple points - there is an assumption that the flight recorder will record everything needed to pin point the cause .
there is an assumption that the people looking at the data will actually be able to see this cause .

wondering if the people who write these programs , actually have hands on background with machine / plane .
wondering if the people who write these programs , have actual hands on experience with flying planes like say jack rousch.
reason - I know of one who has almost zero interest , thinks hands on is beneath him .

User avatar
landrew
Has No Life
Posts: 11248
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:51 am
Location: Fox Meadows

Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by landrew » Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:14 pm

psychiatry is a scam wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:52 pm
landrew wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:57 am
Austin Harper wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:23 am
landrew wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:53 pm
Early speculation suggests...
Thanks, but I'll wait for the actual NTSB report. Also, that's the exact opposite of the problem in the Lion Air flight.
Ah, a hard skeptic. Only hard data will do.
I never let stuff like facts and statistics and reports get in my way . fools rush in , where ---

couple points - there is an assumption that the flight recorder will record everything needed to pin point the cause .
there is an assumption that the people looking at the data will actually be able to see this cause .

wondering if the people who write these programs , actually have hands on background with machine / plane .
wondering if the people who write these programs , have actual hands on experience with flying planes like say jack rousch.
reason - I know of one who has almost zero interest , thinks hands on is beneath him .
Flight recorders nowadays capture a lot of data, and I have a lot of faith in the investigators who piece together the evidence to form conclusions about the causes of crashes. But there have been a few controversial findings as I recall, and I'm unsure if it was due to faulty methods or political interference, if they were wrong.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

User avatar
scrmbldggs
Real Skeptic
Posts: 27951
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 7:55 am
Location: sometimes

Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by scrmbldggs » Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:33 pm

Seems that model is being grounded all over the globe for now. But, at the time of the reporting, not yet in the US.
.
Lard, save me from your followers.

User avatar
landrew
Has No Life
Posts: 11248
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:51 am
Location: Fox Meadows

Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by landrew » Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:25 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:33 pm
Seems that model is being grounded all over the globe for now. But, at the time of the reporting, not yet in the US.
It's a quandary. On one hand, we have thousands of flights with that aircraft with no accidents, but on the other we have two accidents within 6 months. It can be argued that the second accident may not have happened if the results of the first crash had been released in to me for proper changes to have been made. Boeing shares have tanked, so I expect if it were up to them, they would want to ground every plane until the problem had been resolved. A third air crash with this aircraft would likely have dire consequences for Boeing.

This is reminiscent of the Space Shuttle Challenger disaster. We covered this in university as a case study in risk management. Based on the existing test data for cold temperatures at the time, engineers advised against a launch, but administrators using the same data, argued in favor of the launch. We all know what happened, but only because there was a disaster. The Boeing 737 Max 8 will no doubt make a fascinating risk-management case study some day.

Some people confuse risk management with risk-avoidance. Risk-avoidance is not a rational process of weighing factors for against taking an action. It's simply "banning everything dangerous." It may be a popular belief, but it doesn't play well in the real world, where taking risks is a necessity, and has been honed to an art. I'd be interested to learn whether the countries that grounded the Max 8 were practicing risk management or risk-avoidance.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

psychiatry is a scam
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1645
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:23 am
Custom Title: eugenics never stopped

Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by psychiatry is a scam » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:09 pm

landrew wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:25 pm
scrmbldggs wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:33 pm
Seems that model is being grounded all over the globe for now. But, at the time of the reporting, not yet in the US.
It's a quandary. On one hand, we have thousands of flights with that aircraft with no accidents, but on the other we have two accidents within 6 months. It can be argued that the second accident may not have happened if the results of the first crash had been released in to me for proper changes to have been made. Boeing shares have tanked, so I expect if it were up to them, they would want to ground every plane until the problem had been resolved. A third air crash with this aircraft would likely have dire consequences for Boeing.

This is reminiscent of the Space Shuttle Challenger disaster. We covered this in university as a case study in risk management. Based on the existing test data for cold temperatures at the time, engineers advised against a launch, but administrators using the same data, argued in favor of the launch. We all know what happened, but only because there was a disaster. The Boeing 737 Max 8 will no doubt make a fascinating risk-management case study some day.

Some people confuse risk management with risk-avoidance. Risk-avoidance is not a rational process of weighing factors for against taking an action. It's simply "banning everything dangerous." It may be a popular belief, but it doesn't play well in the real world, where taking risks is a necessity, and has been honed to an art. I'd be interested to learn whether the countries that grounded the Max 8 were practicing risk management or risk-avoidance.
FAA - all the time , money , work , beyond imagination ; to gather pieces and put them back together ?
those people have to be smarter than me beyond my comprehension .

couple ideas maybe only an idiot could come up with .
FAA to pilots --- hey a um you guys / pilots are sleeping too much ; and a your using auto pilot too much .
maybe hours of flying experience should NOT include time on auto pilot ; or even better , should be 2 numbers - actual and auto .

risk management = acceptable losses ?

User avatar
landrew
Has No Life
Posts: 11248
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:51 am
Location: Fox Meadows

Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by landrew » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:34 pm

psychiatry is a scam wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:09 pm

FAA - all the time , money , work , beyond imagination ; to gather pieces and put them back together ?
those people have to be smarter than me beyond my comprehension .

couple ideas maybe only an idiot could come up with .
FAA to pilots --- hey a um you guys / pilots are sleeping too much ; and a your using auto pilot too much .
maybe hours of flying experience should NOT include time on auto pilot ; or even better , should be 2 numbers - actual and auto .

risk management = acceptable losses ?
As a private pilot, I have nothing but the utmost respect for airline pilots. They are the cream of the cream in the commercial pilot world, and the standards they are expected to maintain are beyond what most of us could handle. Autopilot doesn't make pilots lazy, it makes the flights safer and more efficient. Generally speaking, there are few things safer than flying on a modern airliner with a qualified pilot.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

psychiatry is a scam
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1645
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:23 am
Custom Title: eugenics never stopped

Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by psychiatry is a scam » Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:01 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:38 am
No link?............................
thought I could find it easily :-(
YouTube - The Flight Channel - boeing 737 , ethopian airlines flight 409

will keep looking

yea just search on YouTube - for - the flight channel .

interesting - I can rant about statistics and flying is dangerous .

but these guys create awesome videos and never ? say anything about flying being dangerous

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
Has No Life
Posts: 13162
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by Lance Kennedy » Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:32 am

Comparing flying to driving.

There are more deaths per million kilometers from driving.
There are more deaths per million hours travel from flying.

So which is more dangerous ?

psychiatry is a scam
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1645
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:23 am
Custom Title: eugenics never stopped

Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by psychiatry is a scam » Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:47 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:32 am
Comparing flying to driving.

There are more deaths per million kilometers from driving.
There are more deaths per million hours travel from flying.

So which is more dangerous ?
I have ranted about this before -
there are 3 kinds of lies : lies , damned lies , and statistics

the crash of the century / the flight channel - over 7 million views
Last edited by psychiatry is a scam on Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
landrew
Has No Life
Posts: 11248
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:51 am
Location: Fox Meadows

Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by landrew » Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:49 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:32 am
Comparing flying to driving.

There are more deaths per million kilometers from driving.
There are more deaths per million hours travel from flying.

So which is more dangerous ?
In the US, the numbers hover between 100 and 200 times safer for air travel over automobile travel per mile, per year.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
Has No Life
Posts: 13162
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by Lance Kennedy » Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:27 am

Perhaps. But a plane goes a lot of miles in one hour. There are more air travel deaths per unit time. More travel deaths per unit distance for cars.

User avatar
ElectricMonk
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5199
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:21 pm
Custom Title: The Baby-eating Bishop

Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by ElectricMonk » Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:48 am

There are strong indications that the 737 max 8 has to many modifications on the basic frame, which shifts the center of mass of the plane far beyond what is usual in a plane. A computer is need to compensate, which creates a single point of failure.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 19285
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: After being pimped comes-----

Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:49 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:27 am
Perhaps. But a plane goes a lot of miles in one hour. There are more air travel deaths per unit time. More travel deaths per unit distance for cars.
Why are using a measurement of "time" for the safety of travel? Why not use number of coffee cups used? The most relevant measure is arriving at your destination. From the data collected/available, seems like miles traveled is more relevant.....but its not the "actual thing" of interest. Time is irrelevant.
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 19285
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: After being pimped comes-----

Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:56 am

ElectricMonk wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:48 am
There are strong indications that the 737 max 8 has to many modifications on the basic frame, which shifts the center of mass of the plane far beyond what is usual in a plane. A computer is need to compensate, which creates a single point of failure.
I don't know if what you say is true, or if true, how true. "far beyond what is usual in a plane"....what are those metrics? Point is: THE PLANE FLIES.

What I've heard so far is that the two crashes involved the pilots "fighting" the auto pilot for control? Rachel Madow reported pilots anonymously reporting similar auto pilot problems in the USA with the solution being the pilots disconnected/deactivated the automatic trim control function of the auto pilot and manually flew the airplane thereafter, or flew it on auto-pilot without the auto trim feature. If thats it, seems to me the issue is very specific? Seems to me that "any" report of a malfunctioning "new" automatic system should open a case file at NTSB with a march towards findings and resolutions. No need to wait for 1-2-3 crashes.

Grounding over the world seems like overreacting or protecting of domestic airline manufacturers to me. "Plane crashes when engaging the new trim feature." Ok: Don't use the new trim feature.

Pros and Cons to all we do...........................
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
Has No Life
Posts: 13162
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by Lance Kennedy » Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:28 am

Bobbo

That would be true if experts were sure that was the problem. They are still finding out.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 19285
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: After being pimped comes-----

Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:30 am

What other problem has been reported or is suspect?
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
scrmbldggs
Real Skeptic
Posts: 27951
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 7:55 am
Location: sometimes

Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:32 am

.
Lard, save me from your followers.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 19285
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: After being pimped comes-----

Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:36 am

Thanks Eggs. I believe the first paragraph is what Maddow reported on in her show........the rest of the report showing that other systems might be involved as well. I'll say again: automatic systems being installed on airplanes WITHOUT INFORMING THE PILOTS is tantamount to putting a bomb on the airplane. People in management should go to jail for such malfeasance..........whatever the truth turns out to be.

I mean.......................FACTS................ DAMN THINGS.
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
scrmbldggs
Real Skeptic
Posts: 27951
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 7:55 am
Location: sometimes

Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:41 am

Preliminary information released by Indonesian investigators suggests they are looking at the possible role of the Max’s new automated anti-stall technology as a factor in a Lion Air crash in October shortly after takeoff from Jakarta. Data indicates that the pilots struggled with repeated nose-down commands from the plane before it crashed into the Java Sea and killed 189 people.

However, that anti-stall system — called MCAS for its acronym — only activates if the autopilot is turned off, according to documents Boeing has shared with airlines and the FAA.
And the two pilots reporting problems ...said that soon after engaging the autopilot on Boeing 737 Max 8 planes, the nose tilted down sharply. In both cases, they recovered quickly after disconnecting the autopilot.
.
Lard, save me from your followers.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 19285
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: After being pimped comes-----

Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:47 am

Clarification?.............The Lion/Indonesian crash was caused by an automated system that works when the autopilot is off. It was installed without informing the pilots about it.

The Addis Abba crash involved the functioning of the auto-pilot on engagement during climb out. Don't know if they were informed or not....but its a different issue highlighted by the two reports filed by USA pilots. Luckily in the USA the aberrant auto pilot error happened immediately upon turning on the autopilot so the connection was made. could have been a different story if the error showed itself one minute later?

STandard procedure is for take offs and landings to be done manually with the auto pilot engaged during takeoff climb out or disengaged somewhere on final approach. So .......auto pilot or not auto pilot related incidents will occur at different points in the flight.
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
ElectricMonk
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5199
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:21 pm
Custom Title: The Baby-eating Bishop

Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by ElectricMonk » Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:49 am

according to some reports, Boeing was aware of the problem and had a fix ready to install after Ethiopian Airways crash in January. But because of the Trump Shutdown, the fix couldn't get approved.

https://qz.com/1570266/ethiopian-airlin ... max-fixes/

User avatar
scrmbldggs
Real Skeptic
Posts: 27951
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 7:55 am
Location: sometimes

Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:50 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:47 am
Clarification?.............The Lion/Indonesian crash was caused by an automated system that works when the autopilot is off. It was installed without informing the pilots about it.

The Addis Abba crash involved the functioning of the auto-pilot on engagement during climb out. Don't know if they were informed or not....but its a different issue highlighted by the two reports filed by USA pilots. Luckily in the USA the aberrant auto pilot error happened immediately upon turning on the autopilot so the connection was made. could have been a different story if the error showed itself one minute later?

STandard procedure is for take offs and landings to be done manually with the auto pilot engaged during takeoff climb out or disengaged somewhere on final approach. So .......auto pilot or not auto pilot related incidents will occur at different points in the flight.
My thinking was that - informed or not - the pilot might have had/turned the automated system on/off when the nose went down. And the MCAS kicked in...
.
Lard, save me from your followers.

User avatar
scrmbldggs
Real Skeptic
Posts: 27951
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 7:55 am
Location: sometimes

Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:54 am

ElectricMonk wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:49 am
according to some reports, Boeing was aware of the problem and had a fix ready to install after Ethiopian Airways crash in January. But because of the Trump Shutdown, the fix couldn't get approved.

https://qz.com/1570266/ethiopian-airlin ... max-fixes/
:|
.
Lard, save me from your followers.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 19285
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: After being pimped comes-----

Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:55 am

Eggs: good thinking. Too many unknowns to me........mostly problably just from not reading enough about each case? And thats ok. The thing about anything "automated" is that it is set up to address one specific situation which actually makes other situations to be made even worse. Like I always say: pros and cons. I could start blathering........interesting to me, but not likely anyone else. So I'll stop. I do love stories about automatic anything going wrong, so I'll stay tuned.
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
landrew
Has No Life
Posts: 11248
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:51 am
Location: Fox Meadows

Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by landrew » Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:57 pm

I don't think most of us are qualified to make the call whether to ground all 737 Max 8s. When you've got nothing at stake, it's easy to prescribe the zero-tolerance option to others. Fear of the name of the plane is not a rational fear. Flying is about 200 times safer than driving in a car, even when it's the Max 8. Neither the US or Canada have grounded the plane, and they have some of the best aviation experts in the world. It makes the groundings by other countries look a bit like hysteria.

EDIT: It appears that Canada has bowed to public pressure and will be grounding the Max-8. I guess science is a democratic process after all. (facetiously, of course it is not.)
Last edited by landrew on Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

User avatar
scrmbldggs
Real Skeptic
Posts: 27951
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 7:55 am
Location: sometimes

Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:01 pm

Maybe since it seems other countries don't have those "best aviation experts in the world", they rather be safe than sorry. :-P


But they should definitely bill Trump.
.
Lard, save me from your followers.

User avatar
landrew
Has No Life
Posts: 11248
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:51 am
Location: Fox Meadows

Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by landrew » Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:05 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:01 pm
Maybe since it seems other countries don't have those "best aviation experts in the world", they rather be safe than sorry. :-P


But they should definitely bill Trump.
"Better safe than sorry" can be a luxury imposed on others that may not be supported by the facts.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

User avatar
scrmbldggs
Real Skeptic
Posts: 27951
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 7:55 am
Location: sometimes

Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:38 pm

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/airlines/2019/03/12/boeing-737-max-8-pilots-complained-feds-months-suspected-safety-flaw wrote:
...found five complaints about the Boeing model in a federal database...

The complaints are about the safety mechanism cited in preliminary reports about an October Boeing 737 Max 8 crash in Indonesia that killed 189...reference problems with an autopilot system, and they all occurred during the ascent after takeoff...were filed directly to the National Aeronautics and Space Administration

However, the FAA sez, "our review shows no systemic performance issues and provides no basis to order grounding the aircraft." ("A federal audit in 2014 said that the FAA does not collect and analyze its voluntary disclosure reporting in a way that would effectively identify national safety risks.")

Yet "Records show...a captain who flies the Max 8 complained in November that it was "unconscionable" that the company and federal authorities allowed pilots to fly the planes without adequate training or fully disclosing information about how its systems were different from those on previous 737 models."
.
Lard, save me from your followers.

User avatar
scrmbldggs
Real Skeptic
Posts: 27951
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 7:55 am
Location: sometimes

Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:54 pm

Last edited by scrmbldggs on Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
.
Lard, save me from your followers.

User avatar
landrew
Has No Life
Posts: 11248
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:51 am
Location: Fox Meadows

Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by landrew » Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:04 pm

The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

User avatar
scrmbldggs
Real Skeptic
Posts: 27951
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 7:55 am
Location: sometimes

Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:15 pm

:lol:


I hear I'm not the only one, but my recent spelling is atrocious. Good thing I don't fly a passengar plane. :-P
.
Lard, save me from your followers.

User avatar
landrew
Has No Life
Posts: 11248
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:51 am
Location: Fox Meadows

Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by landrew » Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:20 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:15 pm
:lol:


I hear I'm not the only one, but my recent spelling is atrocious. Good thing I don't fly a passengar plane. :-P
Trump would have attacked me for mentioning that. I'm glad you're normal :-)
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

User avatar
OlegTheBatty
Has No Life
Posts: 11986
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:35 pm
Custom Title: Uppity Atheist

Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by OlegTheBatty » Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:22 pm

landrew wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:04 pm
I never heard of "Cananda."
Doesn't matter. All you need to know is you can't fly there in your max 8 or 9.
. . . with the satisfied air of a man who thinks he has an idea of his own because he has commented on the idea of another . . . - Alexandre Dumas 'The Count of Monte Cristo"

There is no statement so absurd that it has not been uttered by some philosopher. - Cicero

.......................Doesn't matter how often I'm proved wrong.................... ~ bobbo the pragmatist

User avatar
landrew
Has No Life
Posts: 11248
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:51 am
Location: Fox Meadows

Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by landrew » Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:24 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:22 pm
landrew wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:04 pm
I never heard of "Cananda."
Doesn't matter. All you need to know is you can't fly there in your max 8 or 9.
I know that if I were the CEO of Boeing, I wouldn't be sleeping.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.