The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Balsamo » Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:32 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:19 pm
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:44 pm

Sixth, Tomasevich singles out Allied bombing the last two years of the war as a factor in causing great loss of life. Raids on transportation networks and hubs, to thwart Axis troops movements and economic activity, caused destruction in a number of towns and cities, with concomitant civilian casualties. (In this regard, Tomasevich maintains that Partisan military operations were the most effective Allied tactic for disrupting supply lines and transport of the Axis powers in the region.) Also, Tomasevich says, Allied pilots, under orders not to return to their bases with unused bombs, often dropped remaining explosives in the Zadar area. . . .

"most effective" in what regard? For actually destroying the assets or for destroying assets with minimum civilian casualties?

I assume the collateral civilian casualties near a military target are legal.........but the wanton random bombing of civilians "just because" is not? Real question there....I don't know. I see the pros and cons of it all. If I had been the pilot with left over bombs on my way back home what would I have done, orders or not? I can see bombing some infrastructure asset like a bridge, dike, dam etc.....but just to drop a bomb on a house rather than a vacant field? Well.........orders are orders.

Oh.......I doubt partisan activities are most effective at destroying "the most" enemy assets necessary to win a war. Thats exactly why Air Force and Bombs were created....and used.
Read carefully first, then think about what you've read.
Tomasevich wrote that Partisan operation were more effective tactic "for disrupting supply lines and transport of the Axis powers in the region."

He is not talking about destruction of assets. As a matter of fact, a few partisans could easily destroy a whole convoy of troups or derail a train with a few explosives, with 100% precision, while a plane from the sky would probably miss the target even if only partly.
Second, I assumed that the author is specifically speaking about the situation in Yugoslavia, and in this context, "collateral damages" are even more dramatic, the civilians paying the price for the German repression as well as for the allied bombing.

On the other hand, it was been discussed and concluded that the Allied aerial campaign has been far from decisive in the final decision. Remember that the German war production reached its peak by the end of 1944.
That being said, Speek admitted to his British interrogators that the bombing could have been effective if the plan was "really" to disrupt war production instead of striking every populated cities one after the next. As the bombing were actually done, that is striking a target twice in a row and then switching to another objective, allowed the Germans to repair in a matter of days and resume production.

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:49 pm

Excellent reply . . . Tomasevich actually says that insofar as the Allies, in coordination with the Partisans, targeted transportation networks, the bombing in the last two years in former Yugoslavia had an impact, just not as much as the ground operations of the Partisans. The Axis had great difficulty moving goods, troops, and military assets where they needed them due to these operations. But none of this was decisive, as you say. Tomasevich doesn't pretend that either set of operations was without civilian consequences and includes civilian deaths from the bombing and the vicious warfare in his human losses estimate.

As to this "Read carefully first, then think about what you've read": sigh, yeah, assuming he has the wherewithal. Bobo's assumptions and speculation are not something to take seriously as against the research and analysis of a scholar like Tomasevich, of course.

When Bobo types "I don't know" one can agree with him; when he pecks out "pros and cons," he's merely parodying himself.
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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Feb 27, 2019 12:31 am

Balsamo wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:32 pm

Read carefully first, then think about what you've read.
Tomasevich wrote that Partisan operation were more effective tactic "for disrupting supply lines and transport of the Axis powers in the region."
You are quite right, I missed that. I think my mind kinda went knee jerk negative at the beginning premise. Interesting to observe within onesself the desire to maintain an initial thought when the premise for it has been completely destroyed. Still................

I agree that very limited partisan activities can be more effective than a mass bombing run...........BECAUSE.......they are operating at the margin. How many partisan attacks can be mounted where and when? Can they take out the Ploiești Oil Fields or a ball bearing factory? Railroad tracks are the easiest target there is...........
Balsamo wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:32 pm

Second, I assumed that the author is specifically speaking about the situation in Yugoslavia, and in this context, "collateral damages" are even more dramatic, the civilians paying the price for the German repression as well as for the allied bombing.
Ha, ha.......you mean civilian Yugoslavians are inherently more innocent than civilian Germans? You gotta get real philosophical to overcome the initial conditions of all humans being humans first and citizens second............but yeah, the logic is sound.

Balsamo wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:32 pm

On the other hand, it was been discussed and concluded that the Allied aerial campaign has been far from decisive in the final decision. Remember that the German war production reached its peak by the end of 1944.
That being said, Speek admitted to his British interrogators that the bombing could have been effective if the plan was "really" to disrupt war production instead of striking every populated cities one after the next. As the bombing were actually done, that is striking a target twice in a row and then switching to another objective, allowed the Germans to repair in a matter of days and resume production.
Ummmmm.......is it supposed then that all the effort put into bombing should have been spent elsewhere? Like.......where??
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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Feb 27, 2019 12:51 am

Thanks STat Mech: I did forget to consider the Pros and cons of the situation. Now.......which situation?

Using bombers in a war? ///// I think that is mostly Pro as there are no more effective Pros to put those resources freed up to work. Even if partisan activities are "more effective" in some respect that does not speak to not using bombing campaigns. In War: "All of the Above" absent some interaction making the most effective less effective should be used.........

Dropping bombs on civilians on the way home? //// I see this as more Con than Pro. Too much avoidable animosity could build up in the civilian population not worth the happenstance of blowing up something that did promote WAR goals. And thats before simple morality or even "the law" that applies is evaluated. I would be personally against doing that. I mean....I don't want my troops stressing out like Camp Guards. Perahaps a compromise if Command thinks pot luck is good strategy: you are authorized to pick targets you deem worthwhile on your journey home. THAT would work for me.

Ordered to drop bombs on the way home? ///// Yeah.....well.......orders is orders. Ain't no Pros with me in jail.

Supporting partisan efforts? ///// Oh yeah........to the max. But how about a theoretical choice between partisan vs bombers? I'd be bombers all the way. Its WAR. Nor revolution.

" Speek admitted to his British interrogators that the bombing could have been effective....." ///// LMFT: could have been MORE effective.........
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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Balmoral95 » Wed Feb 27, 2019 2:28 am

You've made a study of the materials on this subject, Bobo?

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Feb 27, 2019 2:52 am

LOL
Oh, wait, sorry, need to give him a chance to reply.
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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:11 am

Balmoral95 wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 2:28 am
You've made a study of the materials on this subject, Bobo?
Of course not. Call it "common sense"/Hogan Heroes/5 years as an Air Force Pilot somewhat in a milieu of things military. Argue the argument, I should be easy to knock down with "facts."

Got no facts?: 1. Go read a book.
2. I have you on ignore.
3. General pomposity.

Did remind me of a favorite issue: why didn't the Allies bomb the camps to give a few refugees the chance to escape? Yada, yada, yada....balancing the pros and cons I would have spent the effort in that direction. But on point: why didn't the partisans do that?.................which made me realize that partisans are GREAT for: unguarded assets. Not so great otherwise. How many books must be read to support the obvious?

Little details.
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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:15 am

FFS, Hogan’s Heroes as a historical source....I need to retch, s’cuse me....
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Harvard Crimson (on why it refused to run an add by Bradley Smith):
“(It is) vicious propaganda based on utter BS that has been discredited time and time again.”

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:16 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:15 am
FFS, Hogan’s Heroes as a historical source....I need to retch, s’cuse me....
Eggs heads. Can't spell humor.
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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:18 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:16 am
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:15 am
FFS, Hogan’s Heroes as a historical source....I need to retch, s’cuse me....
Eggs heads. Can't spell humor.
I have a great sense of humor. You simply strain my patience.
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Harvard Crimson (on why it refused to run an add by Bradley Smith):
“(It is) vicious propaganda based on utter BS that has been discredited time and time again.”

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:23 am

The only thing dumber than anyone referencing Hogans Heroes..........................is...............? Ha, ha. Thats right.

How easy you guys fall off topic at the simplest disagreement/counter/honest and reasonable question.

Makes Hogans Heroes look downright intellectual.
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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:36 am

simple honest question: "is it supposed then that all the effort put into bombing should have been spent elsewhere? Like.......where??

if not: then what is the import of all the blather?

..........and I will suppose until EDUCATED: the egg heads like to make stark declarations rather than anything nuanced.

................................................... Just Look. aka: make the bombing MORE effect, not that they were ineffective.

Silly Historians.
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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:39 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:23 am
The only thing dumber than anyone referencing Hogans Heroes..........................is...............?
You.
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Harvard Crimson (on why it refused to run an add by Bradley Smith):
“(It is) vicious propaganda based on utter BS that has been discredited time and time again.”

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:42 am

No Jeff........follow the bouncing ball. I did reference Hogans Hereos originally, so I'm the "original" dumb one in the set up. You see as you all have me on ignore, it was a joke with the reading public.

Now, don't get me wrong........horrors, never THAT. I can see .............you'se guys (sic).......being irritated at such a reference, ..........BUT put it in context? Something YOU Jeff still haven't recognized as the "only" proper response.

Now...........why would that be???????????????? Hmmmmmmmm?????

Little girls crying at a play tea party. wah, wah, wah.................

The real questions/counter analysis above..........are real. With all the books you guys do claim to read, the answer should be at hand? And if not at hand, appreciated for the issues/thinking involved. Why not fight a war relying on partisan activities? Ha, ha. Take the single issue blinders off.
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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Balmoral95 » Wed Feb 27, 2019 4:01 am

A simple yes/no on my question would've sufficed....

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Feb 27, 2019 4:11 am

Balmoral95 wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 4:01 am
A simple yes/no on my question would've sufficed....
He can’t give a yes/no answer. That part of his brain is broken.
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Harvard Crimson (on why it refused to run an add by Bradley Smith):
“(It is) vicious propaganda based on utter BS that has been discredited time and time again.”

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Feb 27, 2019 4:34 am

Balmoral95 wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 4:01 am
A simple yes/no on my question would've sufficed....
Yes No? When you know the answer???? NO. I don't think so. fer instance: I don't care what any of you "think" on the yes or no scale: but the WHY or the REASONS are very interesting to me.

Again: you'se guys are just too much into the personality and patty-cake playing.

Balmoral: yes/no or explain: do you think bombing is irrelevant? Your experts so far as quoted appear to be idiots. All the generals in all the wars were stupid not to rely on the more accurate partisans? ha, ha...........pulease. Hogans Heroes stupidty.
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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Feb 27, 2019 4:35 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 4:11 am
Balmoral95 wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 4:01 am
A simple yes/no on my question would've sufficed....
He can’t give a yes/no answer. That part of his brain is broken.
You wear lipstick don't you.....................
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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Feb 27, 2019 4:37 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 4:35 am
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 4:11 am
Balmoral95 wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 4:01 am
A simple yes/no on my question would've sufficed....
He can’t give a yes/no answer. That part of his brain is broken.
You wear lipstick don't you.....................
Why?
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Harvard Crimson (on why it refused to run an add by Bradley Smith):
“(It is) vicious propaganda based on utter BS that has been discredited time and time again.”

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Feb 27, 2019 4:47 am

Why? You've got a sense of humor. You've read books. You've watched (I'm supposing) Hogans Heroes. Why........indeed. I can list 4 right off the top.
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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Balmoral95 » Wed Feb 27, 2019 4:54 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 4:34 am
Balmoral95 wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 4:01 am
A simple yes/no on my question would've sufficed....
Yes No? When you know the answer???? NO. I don't think so. fer instance: I don't care what any of you "think" on the yes or no scale: but the WHY or the REASONS are very interesting to me.

Again: you'se guys are just too much into the personality and patty-cake playing.

Balmoral: yes/no or explain: do you think bombing is irrelevant? Your experts so far as quoted appear to be idiots. All the generals in all the wars were stupid not to rely on the more accurate partisans? ha, ha...........pulease. Hogans Heroes stupidty.
My experts? WTF are you on about?

So why are you here?

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:58 am

Yes.
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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Feb 27, 2019 12:54 pm

>> Your experts so far as quoted appear to be idiots. All the generals in all the wars were stupid not to rely on the more accurate partisans?

Sigh. Again, this buffoon's delusions of adequacy, proud ignorance, and reading comprehension problems set up another inane statement.

Nowhere did any of "Balmoral's experts" (WTF?) advise that Allied military leaders in general should have relied on partisans for "more accuracy."

Tomasevich, who spent decades researching the war in Yugoslavia (according to Bobo, Tomasevich is an "idiot" where "Hogan's Heroes" had it right?!?!?!), concluded that in Yugoslavia the bombing war of late 1943-1945, concentrated on transport networks, had degraded the Axis war effort and that the Partisans' operations were still more effective against the infrastructure on which Axis forces relied in the Balkans.

As Balsamo pointed out earlier, and as Bobo would know if he bothered reading the literature he disparages, aside from the Soviet partisans, Tito's Partisans were unique in Europe in their strength and in their success. Where the Allied bombing war was focused - on Germany - there were of course no partisans to rely upon.

Thus, in this discussion of Yugoslavia, with its unique conditions, no one here attributed stupidity to the generals, as Bobo in his vast ignorance and solipsism seems to think we did. (OTOH Tomasevich does mention the Germans' use of terror bombing, against Belgrade; however, from what Tomasevich and other authors writing on Yugoslavia say, the Allies' air campaign in the region did not rely on the kind of terror bombing used across Germany; in his view the atrocities near Zadar were not strategic in nature.)

So, one might ask, what is Bobo going on about, other than trying to save a modicum of face after posting more ignorant comments? Who knows, but he is for sure, in his own inimitable fashion, digging the hole deeper as he continues "talking out his ass."

It is actually a quite sad display.
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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Feb 27, 2019 1:28 pm

As always SM: when you stop with the personal attacks, your analysis is acute and rewarding. Re Reading, I see I did combine what Tomasevich wrote with your own assessment in most relevant regard your summary:
(In this regard, Tomasevich maintains that Partisan military operations were the most effective Allied tactic for disrupting supply lines and transport of the Axis powers in the region.)
My fair inquiry was:
"most effective" in what regard? /// and I should have added "In what context."

Nothing is expressly stated...important conclusions are left hanging. No doubt covered in the 550 pages that weren't quoted? I took the path that if partisan military operations were "the most effective" then they should have been concentrated on and preferred..........but I assume they were effective BECAUSE OF the bombing campaign that was also going on. You know: multi-factorial analysis/appreciation, certain tactics not to be reviewed in isolation.

Not to be solipsistic. No, never THAT. Still..............its glad to see the experts can agree that carpet bombing of cities causes collateral damage. I'm still guessing thats actually illegal....maybe even at the time? Winners do make the rules.
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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Feb 27, 2019 1:39 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 4:47 am
Why? You've got a sense of humor. You've read books. You've watched (I'm supposing) Hogans Heroes. Why........indeed. I can list 4 right off the top.
That makes no sense.
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

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“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


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“(It is) vicious propaganda based on utter BS that has been discredited time and time again.”

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:37 pm

Pathetic.

Of all the discussion threads in all the Internet forums in all the world, this boring turd walks into this one.
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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:47 pm

IKR?
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Harvard Crimson (on why it refused to run an add by Bradley Smith):
“(It is) vicious propaganda based on utter BS that has been discredited time and time again.”

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:32 pm

LOL...................................(just a quote). Your intentional hostility just flows over. Any recognition at all?
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