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Re: Documentaries

Post by Goody67 » Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:29 pm

landrew wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:55 pm
Hitler said, "Let's invade other countries, take all their property and enslave the people there until they die." Nobody on the Nazi side seemed to object.
When did Hitler say that?

There were Nazis who objected to violence, especially the violence of the SS in Poland.
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Re: Documentaries

Post by landrew » Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:31 pm

Goody67 wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:29 pm
landrew wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:55 pm
Hitler said, "Let's invade other countries, take all their property and enslave the people there until they die." Nobody on the Nazi side seemed to object.
When did Hitler say that?
Mein Kampf.
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Re: Documentaries

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:33 pm

Thanks Goody: you are quite right. We/ME always benefit from reading more.......as a generality.

I don't read much on the Holocaust as I believe it and find time spent confirming this conclusion better spent elsewhere. One of the last "articles" as opposed to a book I read on the subject was about the alcoholism rate amoung the camp guards. Seems more than a few of them really didn't like their jobs? I'm sure a few didn't?

BUT THE ISSUE IS: what is any definition of Murder? Was the average German citizen a murderer??? Or does some other word/concept really apply?

I don't know the history in detail...........some of the words, I do lay claim on by way of the DICTIONARY.

MURDER: Unlawful premeditated killing of a human being by a human being ////Ha, ha.........good old dictionary....what is the immoral killing of human beings UNDER THE LAW?.........yeah, I know: genocide. The civilians didn't do it.
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Re: Documentaries

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:40 pm

Goody67 wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:27 pm
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:49 pm
They didn't. The murderers where primarily in the military and given lots of schnapps. Some enjoyed it, only some, as some always do.
I think it’s time for you to start reading more books and watching more documentaries.
That’s been my suggestion but Bobbo doesn’t think it a worthwhile endeavor to read anything about a subject before commenting on it. I realize that seems counterintuitive but that’s Bobbo for you.
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
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Re: Documentaries

Post by Goody67 » Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:41 pm

landrew wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:31 pm
Mein Kampf.
Please cite the exact quote.
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Re: Documentaries

Post by Goody67 » Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:42 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:40 pm
That’s been my suggestion but Bobbo doesn’t think it a worthwhile endeavor to read anything about a subject before commenting on it. I realize that seems counterintuitive but that’s Bobbo for you.
He appears to be away with the fairies.
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Re: Documentaries

Post by landrew » Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:43 pm

Goody67 wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:41 pm
landrew wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:31 pm
Mein Kampf.
Please cite the exact quote.
No need, that's the concept of "Lebensraum."
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Re: Documentaries

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:48 pm

lebensraum: Space sought for occupation by a nation whose population is expanding //// nothing about enslavement and dying.

You know landrew: being precise rather is totally different than your recollections.

boy thinks "copy and paste" means to restate what he already said.........ha, ha.
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Re: Documentaries

Post by Goody67 » Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:49 pm

landrew wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:43 pm
No need, that's the concept of "Lebensraum."
Of course there is a need. You’re making up a quote (you used quotation marks) to Hitler and then cited Mein Kampf and then when asked to provide the quote you resort to, “No need”.

The concept of Lebensraum was an idea way before the Nazis and did not necessarily involve the things you stated.

I think you have confused Lebensraum and the Generalplan Ost. The latter included the former concept, but they are not synonymous.
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Re: Documentaries

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:49 pm

You holocaust boys tend to argue a lot like landrew. Why no love?
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Re: Documentaries

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:54 pm

I love being shown to be wrong, to be edumacted.

What article, book, link details how German citizens by whatever percentage went out and started mass killing on an industrial scale?

I'll wait..............but not for the Fourth Reich.

FOCUS BOYS: do yourself a favor. What are you really reacting to????? Ha, ha....................................
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Re: Documentaries

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:01 am

Image
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Re: Documentaries

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:06 am

LOL
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
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Re: Documentaries

Post by landrew » Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:11 am

Goody67 wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:49 pm
landrew wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:43 pm
No need, that's the concept of "Lebensraum."
Of course there is a need. You’re making up a quote (you used quotation marks) to Hitler and then cited Mein Kampf and then when asked to provide the quote you resort to, “No need”.

The concept of Lebensraum was an idea way before the Nazis and did not necessarily involve the things you stated.

I think you have confused Lebensraum and the Generalplan Ost. The latter included the former concept, but they are not synonymous.
So I was paraphrasing. Apparently you think the quotes were inappropriate. I think it's fairly obvious what plan was carried out in occupied countries.
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Re: Documentaries

Post by landrew » Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:13 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:49 pm
You holocaust boys tend to argue a lot like landrew. Why no love?
Yeah, I didn't expect such a crusty response to such a basic comment.
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Re: Documentaries

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:13 am

Seriously....not gonna do it.
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: Documentaries

Post by Goody67 » Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:21 am

landrew wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:11 am
So I was paraphrasing. Apparently you think the quotes were inappropriate. I think it's fairly obvious what plan was carried out in occupied countries.
You didn’t paraphrase, you used quotation marks.

You cited Mein Kampf, provide a quote from that book which proves what you claimed.

As I have already stated, the concept of Lebensraum (“living space”) in the East existed well before the Nazis.
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Re: Documentaries

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:24 am

landrew wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:13 am
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:49 pm
You holocaust boys tend to argue a lot like landrew. Why no love?
Yeah, I didn't expect such a crusty response to such a basic comment.
Ha, ha,.........they do argue like Matt does...........which is I assume a large part of why he doesn't post on this forum. Like repells like.

Still.......quotes really should be given more respect than you showed there? I know: growing as a person hurts.
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Re: Documentaries

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:25 am

Heres a clue for no charge: I only comments when I see an error being made....large or small. Otherwise I don't comment. I mostly don't comment.

You guys might pay more attention and learn how to be more "skeptical" about what you swallow wholesale.
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Re: Documentaries

Post by landrew » Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:26 am

Goody67 wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:21 am
landrew wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:11 am
So I was paraphrasing. Apparently you think the quotes were inappropriate. I think it's fairly obvious what plan was carried out in occupied countries.
You didn’t paraphrase, you used quotation marks.

You cited Mein Kampf, provide a quote from that book which proves what you claimed.

As I have already stated, the concept of Lebensraum (“living space”) in the East existed well before the Nazis.
I bow to your great expertise of Nazi history.
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Re: Documentaries

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:28 am

landrew: ITS NOT ABOUT NAZI HISTORY..........how do you revert to being so dense so fast?........You are learning the wrong lessons from this forum.
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Re: Documentaries

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:31 am

landrew wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:26 am
Goody67 wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:21 am
landrew wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:11 am
So I was paraphrasing. Apparently you think the quotes were inappropriate. I think it's fairly obvious what plan was carried out in occupied countries.
You didn’t paraphrase, you used quotation marks.

You cited Mein Kampf, provide a quote from that book which proves what you claimed.

As I have already stated, the concept of Lebensraum (“living space”) in the East existed well before the Nazis.
I bow to your great expertise of Nazi history.
A bit of advice: don’t discount good sources of knowledge.
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: Documentaries

Post by Goody67 » Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:36 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:49 pm
They didn't. The murderers where primarily in the military and given lots of schnapps. Some enjoyed it, only some, as some always do.
Wrong. All sorts of people were involved in the killings. Also, some people in the military complained about the barbarism of the SS.

Even organisations such as the Gestapo relied heavily on the cooperation of ordinary Germans.
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Re: Documentaries

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:42 pm

Sigh.
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Re: Documentaries

Post by landrew » Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:53 pm

Goody67 wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:36 pm
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:49 pm
They didn't. The murderers where primarily in the military and given lots of schnapps. Some enjoyed it, only some, as some always do.
Wrong. All sorts of people were involved in the killings. Also, some people in the military complained about the barbarism of the SS.

Even organisations such as the Gestapo relied heavily on the cooperation of ordinary Germans.
No German soldier could claim to be apart from the atrocities being committed in occupied lands. Those who complained were punished or judged less fit in some way, and more often, soldiers merely rationalized in their own minds that it was "OK" and part of the master race's natural right to rule over the "untermensch."

I have known survivors from both sides. One woman who was a teenager during the occupation in the Ukraine was traumatized for life and suffered mental problems until her death. In my youth, I knew former German soldiers who were unrepentant (and proud) about all that happened and carried that attitude until their deaths.
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Re: Documentaries

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Feb 19, 2019 6:03 pm

>> No German soldier could claim to be apart from the atrocities being committed in occupied lands. Those who complained were punished or judged less fit in some way

Citations? (personal anecdotes don't count)
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Re: Documentaries

Post by landrew » Tue Feb 19, 2019 6:12 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 6:03 pm
>> No German soldier could claim to be apart from the atrocities being committed in occupied lands. Those who complained were punished or judged less fit in some way

Citations? (personal anecdotes don't count)
Countless documentaries have documented this.
You're not that sort of troll are you? Why do you discount personal anecdotes; accounts from people who were actually there?
Am I making some outrageous claim that must be vigorously refuted? You don't like my opinions? Yours are better?
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Re: Documentaries

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Feb 19, 2019 6:30 pm

>> Countless documentaries have documented this.

Which? My question to you wasn't complex or difficult: where do you get the notion you posted and what are some examples? If there are countless cases, it should be easy to point us to some. I am especially interested in those showing how soldiers, as you said, who distanced themselves from, opting out of, for example, executions were punished.

>> Why do you discount personal anecdotes; accounts from people who were actually there?

Because it is not possible to verify what you tell us that you heard. And because what you are telling us is not in line with the scholarship and documentary evidence. That's also why I requested you to cite your sources.

>> Am I making some outrageous claim that must be vigorously refuted?

No. The scholarly consensus (it exists in this case) doesn't support what you posted here. So I wonder what works you are relying on for support.

>> You don't like my opinions? Yours are better?

I'm not really interested in opinions but informed conclusions and the basis for them.
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Re: Documentaries

Post by landrew » Tue Feb 19, 2019 6:40 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 6:30 pm
>> Countless documentaries have documented this.

Which? My question to you wasn't complex or difficult: where do you get the notion you posted and what are some examples?
No, but it was an inane question. I will ask you the same question; what are your citations to show that it didn't happen?
You see how this works? You don't own the podium.
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Re: Documentaries

Post by Goody67 » Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:10 pm

landrew wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:53 pm
No German soldier could claim to be apart from the atrocities being committed in occupied lands.
What a load of rubbish. There were many "ordinary" German soldiers in the Wehrmacht who did not commit any crimes and were horrified at the atrocities.

Claiming that every individual soldier who was part of the Wehrmacht was responsible for the atrocities that happened is absurd.
Those who complained were punished or judged less fit in some way, and more often, soldiers merely rationalized in their own minds that it was "OK" and part of the master race's natural right to rule over the "untermensch."
And? The point is that even German generals e.g. Blaskowitz, complained about the atrocities against the Jews, Poles, and others. Of course the Nazis were going to punish people who spoke out against it, all dictatorships are the same in that sense. Jeez, after only two years in power the Nazis had passed two laws which criminalised speaking out against Hitler, the Nazi Party and the State.

Some soldiers did, some soldiers did not. There are countless cases recorded of friendly (sometimes sexual) relations with those regarded as "untermenschen".
I have known survivors from both sides. One woman who was a teenager during the occupation in the Ukraine was traumatized for life and suffered mental problems until her death. In my youth, I knew former German soldiers who were unrepentant (and proud) about all that happened and carried that attitude until their deaths.
Can the anecdotal evidence be verified?
landrew wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 6:40 pm
No, but it was an inane question. I will ask you the same question; what are your citations to show that it didn't happen?
You see how this works? You don't own the podium.
Your claim, you provide evidence for it.
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Re: Documentaries

Post by landrew » Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:20 pm

I saw it. I said it.
Deal with it.
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Re: Documentaries

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:34 pm

I don’t know about anyone else but I always enjoy it when a random person pops up in a sub forum, makes a claim and tells everyone to suck it when they ask for a citation.

That’s fun. It’s particularly amusing when the sub forum is filled with people with a considerable amount of knowledge over a particular subject and wonder WTF the random poster got the information they posted.
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
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Re: Documentaries

Post by Goody67 » Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:46 pm

landrew wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:20 pm
I saw it. I said it.
Deal with it.
Name the documentaries then... :shock:
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Re: Documentaries

Post by Goody67 » Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:47 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:34 pm
I don’t know about anyone else but I always enjoy it when a random person pops up in a sub forum, makes a claim and tells everyone to suck it when they ask for a citation.

That’s fun. It’s particularly amusing when the sub forum is filled with people with a considerable amount of knowledge over a particular subject and wonder WTF the random poster got the information they posted.
When I first saw the post, it reminded me of trying to debate with the moron zionist-occupation on the RODOH forum who repeatedly tried to reverse the burden of proof because he wasn't man enough to admit that he couldn't verify a hearsay quote.
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Re: Documentaries

Post by landrew » Tue Feb 19, 2019 8:02 pm

Who says anecdotes don't count?
I shared an anecdote plain and simple.
Take it leave it.
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Re: Documentaries

Post by Goody67 » Tue Feb 19, 2019 8:23 pm

landrew wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 8:02 pm
Who says anecdotes don't count?
I shared an anecdote plain and simple.
Take it leave it.
I never said that anecdotes don't count. It depends.

Can what you posted be verified?

Also, you posted that, "Countless documentaries have documented":
No German soldier could claim to be apart from the atrocities being committed in occupied lands. Those who complained were punished or judged less fit in some way
Can you name a few of those documentaries?
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Re: Documentaries

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:34 pm

landrew wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 6:40 pm
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 6:30 pm
>> Countless documentaries have documented this.

Which? My question to you wasn't complex or difficult: where do you get the notion you posted and what are some examples?
No, but it was an inane question. I will ask you the same question; what are your citations to show that it didn't happen?
You see how this works? You don't own the podium.
I always find the song and dance to avoid answering so amusing. Which (doing the song and dance) is your prerogative - to make yourself out to be a fool happy to repeat nonsense without supporting it. And now you’re asking me what you claim is an inane question. Unlike you, I can and will answer:

Kay, The Making of an SS Killer: The Life of Colonel Alfred Filbert 1905-1990, pp 100-101
Browning, Ordinary Men (see post at ISF - link below) ch 1
Douglas, The Right Wrong Man, pp 220-228, 240-241, 252 (putative necessity)
Bazyler & Turkheimer, Forgotten Trials of the Holocaust, pp 180-186
Beorn, Marching into Darkness: The Wehrmacht and the Holocaust in Belarus, pp 124-128, 174-176, 178-182, 228-233, 240 (refusals)
Langerbein, Hitler’s Death Squads, pp 144-149, 155-159, 166, 168-172, 176-178 (refusals)
Herberer & Matthäus, Atrocities on Trial, pp 237-239
Earl, The Nuremberg Ss-Einsatzgruppen Trial, pp 156, 199-209
Kay & Stahel, Mass Violence in Nazi-Occupied Europe, p 33 (also pp 174, 181-182, 185-188, 203)
Kay, Rutherford & Stahel, Nazi Policy on the Eastern Front, pp 80, 83, 86-87 (mixed implementation response)
Persico, Nuremberg: Infamy on Trial, pp 206, 318
Hébert, Hitler’s Generals on Trial, pp 69-71, 122, 142

These are some of the works that have informed my understanding of the ideas of superior orders, responses to orders, enforcement of orders, punishment for opting out of order, the German military code, putative necessity defense, and refusals to participate.

(http://www.internationalskeptics.com/fo ... count=2283)

Feel free to show how they support what you posted or to refute their arguments and show how they use evidence to draw unsustainable conclusions.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Wed Feb 20, 2019 3:47 am, edited 3 times in total.
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bobbo_the_Pragmatist
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Re: Documentaries

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:02 pm

Goody67 wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:36 pm
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:49 pm
They didn't. The murderers where primarily in the military and given lots of schnapps. Some enjoyed it, only some, as some always do.
Wrong. All sorts of people were involved in the killings. Also, some people in the military complained about the barbarism of the SS.

Even organisations such as the Gestapo relied heavily on the cooperation of ordinary Germans.
"The murderers where primarily in the military" ////..........just my sense from general education, and that is mostly Hollywood Movies? You know: "camps" run by the Army/SS, guarded by the Army/SS. I have no idea of actual numbers and what not.

"........and given lots of schnapps.........." ////Half a joke, half a projection of my own values/attitudes that if somehow I got trapped into doing such a job "I" would have to be drunk most of the time if even that would help. Pure Projection...........and in fact I did read ONE article on how camp guards dealt with their duties. Not much to go on.......just human nature.

.......Some enjoyed it, only some, as some always do." //// More of my own projection, sarcasm, irony, commentary. My own use of "some" being commentary and not a direct contradiction....not as retarded.

But you say "Wrong. All sorts of people were involved in the killings." /// For example? I hope you aren't including the kapos? They were most directly "involved." The suppliers of gas to the camps? Where they "involved" in the sense you mean? Please state a few of the "categories" of people you include as "involved." Their numbers/%'s????? Or is it just blather?

"Some people..........blah, blah, blah." ////// A completely retarded comment. "some people" do anything you want to say. See? I just did it myself. Some people.......................complained about the barbarism of the SS BECAUSE it made running the camps and killing the Jews more difficult/less "efficient". Those some people?????
Even organisations such as the Gestapo relied heavily on the cooperation of ordinary Germans.
Can you categorize this cooperation? And is this cooperation the same as "involved"? What comes to my mind is that "ordinary Germans" tried to feed their families and keep them safe as much as they could. "Some Germans" would turn in folks they thought were Jews: what %? And would this % be "involved" in the killing of Jews? I accept ordinary Germans living close to the camps probably knew what was going one and did not revolt to save their fellow mankind. Is that being involved in the killing?

Ha, ha...............some people.............
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Re: Documentaries

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:11 pm

Goody67 wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:10 pm
landrew wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:53 pm
No German soldier could claim to be apart from the atrocities being committed in occupied lands.
What a load of rubbish. There were many "ordinary" German soldiers in the Wehrmacht who did not commit any crimes and were horrified at the atrocities.

Claiming that every individual soldier who was part of the Wehrmacht was responsible for the atrocities that happened is absurd.
Those who complained were punished or judged less fit in some way, and more often, soldiers merely rationalized in their own minds that it was "OK" and part of the master race's natural right to rule over the "untermensch."
Let me get this straight? Soldiers are not automatically responsible for atrocities that happened but ordinary German Citizens as a group are? Can you puzzle me that?
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Re: Documentaries

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:23 pm

I've posted this anecdote myself once before, a personal one. I flew cargo airplanes into Vietnam during that war and all the various atrocities that were done there. I was "personally" against the war as an issue itself, and against any pointless mass murders excused as combat stress a la the My Lai Massacre. I do not consider/feel/think I was "involved" in such massacres/atrocities but I can't deny I was "involved" in the War/err: Police Action, No....that was Korea? What was Vietnam???? Oh Yeah, Not war, we were just "helping." so, I admit I helped.

Lots of well worn issues touched on. I do not feel "responsible" for "anything." I was only following orders under pain of imprisonment not to. If the other side had captured me, I would state the above but assume I would be punished as they wished to do. Same with walking around in France if some VietCong agent wanted to make a political statement by killing an American Soldier. Hey....sucks to be me.

Responsible/Liable. Two very close words having very different meanings/applications. Anyone talking about the right issue? Were all Americans involved in the MURDERS at My Lai? I don't think so. Responsibility is normally restricted to "proximate" causation. The guy that shoots the gun, not the guy who made the bullet. I apply this to myself, to Americans, and to Germans.
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
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