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Re: Documentaries

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Tue Jan 29, 2019 7:13 pm

I followed up on "Big Sonia" with "After Auschwitz," a documentary following the lives of six Holocaust survivors (not all were at Auschwitz) who eventually wound up in the United States, married, had children and careers, and were now, after many decades, speaking out in response to the resurgence of denial and the other holocausts in Darfur, Cambodia, Kosovo,.... The difficulties they all had to get through, overcoming the nightmares, adjusting to life in the US, are well presented. Two of them, from Poland, went back to their houses and found Poles living in them and wearing their clothes; they had no hope of repossessing the houses, and the Poles were not even sorry for them, only angry that they came back. I hesitate to judge people who also suffered from the Nazis, but they might at least have expressed some sympathy for the people whose property they stole.

One of the survivors, Renee Firestone, was a fashion designer who got a Medal of Freedom award from GW Bush.

Another was much more seriously affected by her experience. She was afraid to leave her son alone for even one minute. When her son wanted to join the Boy Scouts, she took a look at them and their uniforms and couldn't see anything but the HJ; she kept him out of the scouts. Decades later, when she had to go to Cedars Sinai Hospital, the place reminded her so much of Auschwitz that she thought the admissions people were the guards separating those to work from those to be executed. When her nurse turned out to be a young German woman, she attacked the nurse savagely and had to be sedated and kept there for two weeks of therapy.

And, just one gotcha moment. When they began telling the story about the women who moved from New York to Los Angeles in the early 1950s, the screen showed a big Los Angeles Dodgers billboard with a picture of Sandy Koufax. True, Sandy was/is Jewish. But he didn't play in Los Angeles until several years later.

So, different stories. Two or three of the women are now deceased, but one is still alive at 92 and says she "wouldn't change a thing in her life even if she could." (She also says she is disciplined enough not to think about things that make her miserable and can't be changed.)
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

Vyacheslav Mikhailovich Skryabin (“Molotov”)

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Re: Documentaries

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jan 29, 2019 7:55 pm

Some time back, I found some comfort in recognizing that "things could always be worse." That doesn't make me a Pollyanna, but I credit that notion with not getting depressed much at all..........course, then, I have a good life in most respects. But a holocaust survivor who "wouldn't change a thing in her life...." is taking it a bit far. Thats a thing about ideas.........most people do.
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Re: Documentaries

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:40 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 7:55 pm
Some time back, I found some comfort in recognizing that "things could always be worse." That doesn't make me a Pollyanna, but I credit that notion with not getting depressed much at all..........course, then, I have a good life in most respects. But a holocaust survivor who "wouldn't change a thing in her life...." is taking it a bit far. Thats a thing about ideas.........most people do.
Yeah, that was my feeling. My sleep is troubled by memories of the countless times I have screwed up in my life. But all in all, I'm one of the luckiest sons of bitches who ever lived. Every human being is born into a particular time and place, and those space-time coordinates have a huge influence on the quality of that person's life. In that sweepstakes, I won what the French call the gros lot. How a person who spent years in a death camp can say that is more than I can comprehend.
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

Vyacheslav Mikhailovich Skryabin (“Molotov”)

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Re: Documentaries

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jan 30, 2019 4:19 pm

I think I do "comprehend" the psychology involved, only because I am living a form of it myself, as you might be as well. I had an event that I mark as the most terrible event in my life and after my return to normal life the ups and downs I experience are not as bad by comparison so "it could always be worse" I know is true because I experience it. And as time passes, the deep throb of that event does reduce itself....almost setting me up for Great Disaster No 2.......although I think I am armed in a way that would make that difficult.

All to the point, I can comprehend our Death Camp Survivor going through the same process, yet in the vein of one of my favorite fantasies, the Time Travel episode where "a fix" never turns out the way you want, I wonder what I would do if transported back to key days when totally voluntary actions were taken. Would I change a thing?........Ha, ha.......Yes. I would. Make some other error...........could it be worse than what I did??? Hard to imagine. A la Twilight Zone.......I think I would simply pass on the event in question and go do something else. Then who knows?.......Some other event leading to my death????? and my position remains: I know it could have been worse.
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Re: Documentaries

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Feb 03, 2019 5:40 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:48 pm
documentary premiered at South By: "Alt-Right: Age of Rage":
In its commitment to objectivity, presenting Spencer and Jenkins as two sides of a coin, Lough’s film falls victim to false balance. Spencer’s views remain relatively unchallenged throughout the film, so one wonders whether he should have been granted this platform to begin with. Thank goodness for Mark Potok of the Southern Poverty Law Center, who offers the most insightful commentary in the film, calling the alt-right “a rebranding of white supremacy for public-relations purposes,” arguing that the notion of there being “equivalency” between the radical right and the radical left in the U.S. is “ridiculous,” and illustrating how “for these four years, white nationalists really feel like they have their man in the White House” in Trump.
This is now on Netflix, I watched it last night and this morning.

One of the more disturbing things about what I saw was the battles taking place in Charlottesville between the alt-right and antifa with no interference from the police. Not that they weren’t there but they failed to do anything with people fighting each other just a few yards away.

I have no issues with how the filmmaker went from the alt-right to the antifa. I think the person critical of the film missed the point. To me the whole thing was showing both going about their business and what they do. The SPLC was there to provide needed criticism of Spencer’s (and others) views. The filmmaker wanted access, not sure how challenging either would have made this possible. That’s just my opinion.
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Harvard Crimson (on why it refused to run an add by Bradley Smith):
“(It is) vicious propaganda based on utter BS that has been discredited time and time again.”

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Re: Documentaries

Post by landrew » Sun Feb 03, 2019 8:17 pm

Many people believe that it was marches and demonstrations that brought about social change, but I disagree. I think it was sober thought and self-reflection brought about by thinking about issues that had remained below the surface for a long time. I believe intolerance is driven by ignorance, and an unwillingness to see all sides of an issue. Public discussion is what makes people think, which erodes the blanket of ignorance they use to justify intolerant attitudes.
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Re: Documentaries

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Feb 03, 2019 8:22 pm

I think today most intolerance is driven by religion, politics, and profit motive.

"sober thought"===>good one! Pass the beer.
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Re: Documentaries

Post by landrew » Sun Feb 03, 2019 8:45 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 8:22 pm
I think today most intolerance is driven by religion, politics, and profit motive.

"sober thought"===>good one! Pass the beer.
Don't forget the loud music. It drowns out the few cogent thoughts the beer lets through.
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Re: Documentaries

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Sun Feb 03, 2019 9:09 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 8:22 pm
I think today most intolerance is driven by religion, politics, and profit motive.

"sober thought"===>good one! Pass the beer.
Naw. Today, of all days, at least in the US, intolerance is driven by loyalty to a football team.
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

Vyacheslav Mikhailovich Skryabin (“Molotov”)

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Re: Documentaries

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Feb 03, 2019 9:12 pm

LOL
Speaking of which, getting ready to head off to the in-laws to watch the game.
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Harvard Crimson (on why it refused to run an add by Bradley Smith):
“(It is) vicious propaganda based on utter BS that has been discredited time and time again.”

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Re: Documentaries

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Feb 03, 2019 9:32 pm

landrew wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 8:17 pm
Many people believe that it was marches and demonstrations that brought about social change, but I disagree. I think it was sober thought and self-reflection brought about by thinking about issues that had remained below the surface for a long time. I believe intolerance is driven by ignorance, and an unwillingness to see all sides of an issue. Public discussion is what makes people think, which erodes the blanket of ignorance they use to justify intolerant attitudes.
The change would not have come without the pressure. Which accumulated over decades. I think that WWII was a major factor.
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Re: Documentaries

Post by landrew » Sun Feb 03, 2019 9:45 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 9:32 pm
landrew wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 8:17 pm
Many people believe that it was marches and demonstrations that brought about social change, but I disagree. I think it was sober thought and self-reflection brought about by thinking about issues that had remained below the surface for a long time. I believe intolerance is driven by ignorance, and an unwillingness to see all sides of an issue. Public discussion is what makes people think, which erodes the blanket of ignorance they use to justify intolerant attitudes.
The change would not have come without the pressure. Which accumulated over decades. I think that WWII was a major factor.
Pressure doesn't change the way people think. Nobody can be forced to change their beliefs with the exception of rare psychological disorders. Calling attention to the issue thinking about it and having discussions is what changes minds and attitudes over time.
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Re: Documentaries

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:08 pm

landrew wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 9:45 pm
Pressure doesn't change the way people think. Nobody can be forced to change their beliefs with the exception of rare psychological disorders. Calling attention to the issue thinking about it and having discussions is what changes minds and attitudes over time.
Pressure sure changes what people do. And can help change how they think. It creates layers of activity, some reflective, some not. It is IMO very simplistic to dismiss activities like the civil rights movement, which was after all multi-dimensional, as was the antiwar movement of the '60s and '70s. Thinking of these movements as people marching and picketing is superficial. Many different kinds of activity were involved, in churches, in journals and magazines and newspapers, in schools, in the streets. I saw both movements lead to changes in how people thought - and what people did.
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Re: Documentaries

Post by landrew » Sun Feb 03, 2019 11:23 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:08 pm
landrew wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 9:45 pm
Pressure doesn't change the way people think. Nobody can be forced to change their beliefs with the exception of rare psychological disorders. Calling attention to the issue thinking about it and having discussions is what changes minds and attitudes over time.
Pressure sure changes what people do. And can help change how they think. It creates layers of activity, some reflective, some not. It is IMO very simplistic to dismiss activities like the civil rights movement, which was after all multi-dimensional, as was the antiwar movement of the '60s and '70s. Thinking of these movements as people marching and picketing is superficial. Many different kinds of activity were involved, in churches, in journals and magazines and newspapers, in schools, in the streets. I saw both movements lead to changes in how people thought - and what people did.
Sounds like fascism to me. Getting people to do things with force.
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Re: Documentaries

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Feb 04, 2019 12:45 am

Reread everything but replace "pressure" with "media coverage."
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Re: Documentaries

Post by landrew » Mon Feb 04, 2019 1:01 am

Democracy is based on freedom of choice. Pressuring, influencing, enticing people to change their minds is undemocratic.
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Re: Documentaries

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Feb 04, 2019 1:21 am

Like slavery and segregation? Corporate lobbyists and pressure groups? Political parties? Lots of “fascists” all around us.

The US system is in part based on the interplay of countervailing pressures. Movements organize people to participate. But they also get people in power to do what they don’t want to, sometimes. And sometimes when they do they block groups from discriminating against others.

Fascism is not the same as authoritarianism, nor is it about people pressuring institutions and government for change. Nor is fascism useful as an epithet as you’ve just used it. If the civil rights movement sounds like fascism to you, it must be because you don’t know what fascism is.

But we are wandering off the topic, which was not should movements try to use pressure but did they do so successfully to promote civil rights.
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Re: Documentaries

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Feb 04, 2019 1:31 am

landrew wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 1:01 am
Democracy is based on freedom of choice. Pressuring, influencing, enticing people to change their minds is undemocratic.
Would you take out "influencing" or do you have a special definition for that too?
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Re: Documentaries

Post by landrew » Mon Feb 04, 2019 1:38 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 1:31 am
landrew wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 1:01 am
Democracy is based on freedom of choice. Pressuring, influencing, enticing people to change their minds is undemocratic.
Would you take out "influencing" or do you have a special definition for that too?
It's up to you to school yourself. I don't have time for that or to engage with you in your efforts to derail every discussion you participate in.
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Re: Documentaries

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Feb 04, 2019 1:40 am

So, its your position that people debating one another in an open public forum as to why anyone should vote for them is anti-democractic?

Is that your schooled position bunky? Only in your world would seeing a better analysis be thought of as a derailment. ............. are you right?
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Re: Documentaries

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:21 pm

Putting this here (thanks, Goody).

Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Harvard Crimson (on why it refused to run an add by Bradley Smith):
“(It is) vicious propaganda based on utter BS that has been discredited time and time again.”

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Re: Documentaries

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:22 pm

I’ll watch it some other time.
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Harvard Crimson (on why it refused to run an add by Bradley Smith):
“(It is) vicious propaganda based on utter BS that has been discredited time and time again.”

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Re: Documentaries

Post by Goody67 » Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:18 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:21 pm
Putting this here (thanks, Goody).

No problem.

My opinion on the debate is that the self-proclaimed Marxist Woods just simply repeated very simplistic propaganda about the Russian Revolution and although Figes made some very good points about the Russian Revolution, he was quite rude at times.

However, I can understand why Figes was annoyed at times. For example, some of the people there regarded people’s recollections and stories about that time as just simply “anecdotes”.
“When one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion.” - Robert Pirsig

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Re: Documentaries

Post by landrew » Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:56 pm

I can't watch it. It would raise my blood pressure too much.
It's the same thing trying to argue with Marxists, too many points of contention to even start.
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Re: Documentaries

Post by Goody67 » Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:31 am



Alfons Heck - Heil Hitler Confessions Of A Hitler Youth.

In the documentary, archived footage was used and Heck narrated it. Although it’s very interesting, I think it’s also sad to see how easily the youth were brainwashed into believing Nazi propaganda and subsequently became fanatic Nazis.

Heck wrote two books, A Child of Hitler: Germany in the Days When God Wore a Swastika and The Burden of Hitler's Legacy.

In the first book I mentioned, Heck wrote about the audience at a meeting with Hitler speaking:
We erupted into a frenzy of nationalistic pride that bordered on hysteria. For minutes on end, we shouted at the top of our lungs, with tears streaming down our faces: Sieg Heil, Sieg Heil, Sieg Heil! From that moment on, I belonged to Adolf Hitler body and soul.
Last edited by Goody67 on Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Documentaries

Post by landrew » Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:29 pm

I knew a WWII veteran before he died, and he told me that his unit executed all the Hitler youth they captured. His reason was that they never gave up, and if they were taken prisoner, they would usually find an opportunistic way to do some harm to Allied forces, even at the expense of their own lives.
A war crime? Possibly, but that's the way it was told to me.
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Re: Documentaries

Post by Goody67 » Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:17 pm



How Did Ordinary Citizens Become Murderers?

An excellent lecture feauring Wendy Lower and Christopher Browning.
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Re: Documentaries

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:28 pm

I’m considering this book by Wendy Lower:
Wendy Lower
Nazi Empire-Building and the Holocaust in Ukraine
New edition Edition
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Harvard Crimson (on why it refused to run an add by Bradley Smith):
“(It is) vicious propaganda based on utter BS that has been discredited time and time again.”

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Re: Documentaries

Post by landrew » Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:40 pm

Goody67 wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:17 pm

How Did Ordinary Citizens Become Murderers?

An excellent lecture feauring Wendy Lower and Christopher Browning.
Interesting avatar. The De Loys' Ape was thought to be an undiscovered large tail-less ape found in South America, but most experts now believe it to be a spider monkey.
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Re: Documentaries

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:44 pm

>> Lower
Nazi Empire-Building and the Holocaust in Ukraine

Well worth reading. On Galicia in particular I recommend (well, Berkhoff of course) The Diary of Samuel Golfard and the Holocaust in Galicia, edited by Lower.
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Re: Documentaries

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:49 pm

Goody67 wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:17 pm
How Did Ordinary Citizens Become Murderers?
They didn't. The murderers where primarily in the military and given lots of schnapps. Some enjoyed it, only some, as some always do.
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Re: Documentaries

Post by landrew » Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:55 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:49 pm
Goody67 wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:17 pm
How Did Ordinary Citizens Become Murderers?
They didn't. The murderers where primarily in the military and given lots of schnapps. Some enjoyed it, only some, as some always do.
Hitler said, "Let's invade other countries, take all their property and enslave the people there until they die." Nobody on the Nazi side seemed to object.
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Re: Documentaries

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:56 pm

Agreed. So what?
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Re: Documentaries

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:57 pm

FFS, I’m not addressing any of the above.
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Harvard Crimson (on why it refused to run an add by Bradley Smith):
“(It is) vicious propaganda based on utter BS that has been discredited time and time again.”

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Re: Documentaries

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:00 pm

bobbo parading his ignorance again?
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Re: Documentaries

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:04 pm

Ayup. Iandrew isn’t helping.
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Harvard Crimson (on why it refused to run an add by Bradley Smith):
“(It is) vicious propaganda based on utter BS that has been discredited time and time again.”

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
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Re: Documentaries

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:26 pm

Ha, ha: Stat Mech: you so rarely offer a comment toward moi, but always humorous when you do. How do you do it??????

Yes my sub-forum denizens: I make no equivalence between a cowered bullied civilian populace and the active inner circle of nut cases doing what they did imposing as much secrecy as they could along the way.

................................and neither do you. You just enjoy group dog piles.......like all hoomans do: the civilian populace, and the Schutzstaffel, this subforum much the same that way. Its the differences that make a difference.....................
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

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Statistical Mechanic
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Re: Documentaries

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:27 pm

Poor Christopher Browning, perpetration is so simple, and all military and stuff. Why waste time considering such things?
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

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Re: Documentaries

Post by Goody67 » Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:27 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:49 pm
They didn't. The murderers where primarily in the military and given lots of schnapps. Some enjoyed it, only some, as some always do.
I think it’s time for you to start reading more books and watching more documentaries.
“When one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion.” - Robert Pirsig

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Statistical Mechanic
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Re: Documentaries

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:28 pm

Goody67 wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:27 pm
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:49 pm
They didn't. The murderers where primarily in the military and given lots of schnapps. Some enjoyed it, only some, as some always do.
I think it’s time for you to start reading more books and watching more documentaries.
Better yet, since he's proven over a decent span of time that he's not up to it, find another forum to troll.
. . . all right we are two nations . . .