General Books/Reading Discussion

Discussions
User avatar
Upton_O_Goode
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5102
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:15 am
Custom Title: Morgan de Veldt
Location: The Land Formerly Known as Pangea

Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:14 pm

Goody67 wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:36 am

There is nothing in Gellately's quote which suggested that Stalin deported the Germans for being "loyal to Hitler".
Hmm, so singling out Germans working in war-related industries indicates some OTHER suspicion in Stalin's mind? What might that be?
Goody67 wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:36 am

Stalin did not exactly describe the Germans collectively in a good manner. For example, during his speech in Moscow in November 1941, he described the German troops as "German fascists". Undoubtedly, there were many German troops who were Nazis, but he described all of the troops as fascists, which was a ridiculous thing to say. Of course the Nazis were equally as bad with the propaganda about "Bolshevik sub-humans", "Russian sub-humans", "Soviet sub-humans", etc.

In your defence about Stalin not wanting to exterminate the Ukrainians, Stephen Kotkin in his book Stalin, Vol. II: Waiting for Hitler, 1929–1941 wrote:
All of these actions were woefully insufficient for avoiding the mass starvation in the countryside caused by his policies, in the face of challenging natural conditions. Still, these actions do not indicate that he was trying to exterminate peasants or ethnic Ukrainians.
Robert Service in his book Stalin: A Biography wrote:
Coming after the arrests and trials of Ukrainian culture figures from the late 1920s, these measures were brutal and discriminatory; and although Stalin did not seek the extermination of all Ukrainians and Kazakhs, he certainly aimed to extirpate all opposition real and potential from among them. The ultimate objective, though, was to turn Ukraine and Kazakhstan into economically efficient Soviet republics.
pp. 328-329.

I don't believe Stalin had to have had an official policy to exterminate the Ukrainians for the Holodomor to be classified as a genocide. Either way, whether it should be classified as a genocide or not a genocide, Stalin was responsible for the deaths of millions of people.
Yeah, I read Kotkin's book last summer. 900 pages to cover 12 years. That puts about one week of history on each page, probably the densest concentration of historical narrative I've ever read. It appears that more of it stuck with you than with me, but I thought it was a masterpiece.

In William F. Buckley's right-wing rag National Review, some 50+ years ago, I read the astonishing claim that the European conquest of America couldn't be called a genocide because "there are more American Indians alive today than there were in 1600." I'm not sure the alleged fact is even a fact. But even if it is, there is no way to describe what happened to the aboriginal inhabitants of North America except as a genocide.

In reference to the nice quote from Service, it's an easy shot to say that pursuing economically efficient Soviet republics by forcibly collectivizing and starving the peasants who grow food is like pursuing wealth by gambling at a Trump casino.
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

Vyacheslav Mikhailovich Skryabin (“Molotov”)

User avatar
Upton_O_Goode
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5102
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:15 am
Custom Title: Morgan de Veldt
Location: The Land Formerly Known as Pangea

Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:22 pm

Denying-History wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:31 pm
Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:10 pm
Incidentally, Gellately appears to contradict what Denying History wrote about the relative impact of the famine in the Ukraine (ibid., p. 232). There may not be an actual contradiction here, but I need to look at it:
Robert Gellately wrote: In Ukraine, which was worst affected in the USSR, the level of urban mortality was 50 percent higher in 1933 than in 1932, but in rural areas it was nearly three times as high. By contrast, mortality rates in areas around Moscow and Leningrad were largely unchanged in 1932--33.
Not sure I notice the contradiction, I’m just using Wolowyna et als along with Wheatcrofts crude mapping of the famine. Both more or less confirm the other. It also appears that this is consistent with Wolowynas findings:
a) the 4 million losses is equivalent to 13 percent of Ukraine’s 1933 population, one of the highest levels of mortality among all man-made famines; b) in some oblasts this percent approached 25 percent and in some raions more than 40 percent; c) close to 85 percent of all rural excess deaths occurred in the first seven months of 1933; d) the number of losses in rural Ukraine increased 10 times during this period and in some oblasts this increase was 15-fold; e) at the peak of the Holodomor, June of 1933, the daily average number of excess deaths was 28,000; f) more than 30 percent or 1.2 million of the Holodomor losses were children under age 10.
http://www.ukrweekly.com/uwwp/understan ... s-numbers/

Hard to know though without his figures.
I'm trying to reconcile the two things. On the one hand, the non-grain-producing areas were hit harder than those that produce grain. On the other hand, the rural areas suffered more than the urban areas. So the hardest hit areas were rural areas that didn't produce grain, and the ones that suffered least were the urban areas that did produce grain. It sounds strange, but I'll look at a map and see if the urban areas are actually located inside the grain-producing areas. That would resolve the seeming contradiction, leaving open the question of what economic activity was pursued in rural areas that didn't produce grain. Of course, Gellately is a professor, not the pope. I don't expect him to be infallible, although obviously he had some statistics on which to base his statement.

From the link you provided:
The claim that the Ukrainian-U.S. team failed to include a whole list of deaths like unregistered deaths in peasant’s houses and on city streets, shootings in prisons, deaths of children in orphanages, corpses in anonymous graves, etc. is incorrect. It is a hopeless task to come up with a comprehensive list of all the possible kinds of deaths and to try to count them. Demographic techniques were applied to estimate the total number of deaths during the Holodomor period, which includes large numbers of unregistered deaths. For example, the number of registered rural deaths in 1933 was 1.6 million, while the estimated total is 3.8 million deaths.
Gellately has a similar comment regarding deaths in the GULag: it's impossible to know how many people died en route to a camp.

ETA: Looking over the tables in the article you linked to, I think I see the explanation. The only regions to have a population decrease between 1927 and 1939 were Vinnitsya, Kyiv, Chirnihiv, and Kharkiv. In other words, it wasn't the cities themselves, but the regions around them (which did produce grain), that were hardest hit. Gellately must have been referring to just the cities. (And how good were the birth and death records outside the cities in the 1930s? Hard to be confident.)
Last edited by Upton_O_Goode on Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

Vyacheslav Mikhailovich Skryabin (“Molotov”)

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 26180
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:25 pm

>> what happened to the aboriginal inhabitants of North America

Mann situates this in the context of settler colonialist cleansing in general. IIRC his chapter on the topic includes the following case studies: the Spanish in Mexico, Australia, the United States with particular attention (my memory is bad here) on California, Russians in the Caucasus, and Germans in Southwest Africa.
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has No Life
Posts: 11746
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:30 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:41 am
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:56 am
Hanebrink's book is not strong. It is very basic, to be charitable.
BTW I’m starting to get what you mean. I dropped it. I’ll pick it back up again but it started to get really repetitive.

I finished this. Finally.

I have things to post about it but it will need to wait.
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has No Life
Posts: 11746
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:31 pm

Taking a break from our subject once this comes available:
The Story of Britain
Roy Strong
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

User avatar
Denying-History
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2146
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:01 pm

Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Denying-History » Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:21 am

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:22 pm
Looking over the tables in the article you linked to, I think I see the explanation. The only regions to have a population decrease between 1927 and 1939 were Vinnitsya, Kyiv, Chirnihiv, and Kharkiv. In other words, it wasn't the cities themselves, but the regions around them (which did produce grain), that were hardest hit. Gellately must have been referring to just the cities. (And how good were the birth and death records outside the cities in the 1930s? Hard to be confident.)
Alright, so this is how I see Ukraine by “regions”:

Image

The following map below marks out the grain growing regions:
Image

And mapping of Forrest-Steppe:
Image

Now the statement you made was as follows:
OK, I see your point. But I don't think the whole Ukraine was targeted, only the parts that produce the grain.
The problem with this statement is that it’s simply not true, on January 22, 1932 the borders of Ukraine were closed. As well I would expect higher mortality would correlate with Odessa, Dnipropetrovsk, Stalino, & Tyraspol if Stalins target was mainly grain producers. However mortality correlates with centeral Ukraine being hit worst.

Now the death rate correlates with the procurement. To give an example:

Oblast - 1932 losses - % Collectivization - % procurement fulfillment

Kiev - 14.2 - 67 - 100
Khar’kiv - 8.6 - 72 - 77
Dnipropetrovsk - 5.5 - 85 - 69.5
Odesa - 6.5 - 84 - 72

Above one can see the following. Lower losses correlate with higher collectivization percentages. While higher losses significantly correlate with higher percentage of the procurement met.
Image

In the region as a whole scarcity was artificially aggravated by state policies. Food was loaned to the south in order to save the 1933 harvest taking a utilitarian approach. Honestly as a whole this is no Holocaust, but it’s definitly genocide by the U.N. definition.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
Joseph E. Davies

User avatar
Denying-History
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2146
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:01 pm

Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Denying-History » Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:58 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:38 pm
On France, FWIW, from earlier discussion:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:20 am
< snip >
Denying-History wrote:If I take over France and start exterminating the French citizens, that is genocide because I am murdering the French because of their nationality.
But if you take over France, and start murdering French people because they resist your policies, it's different. Sure, you're murdering them in part because they're French - but if they accept your demands, you will stop murdering them. My question hinges on this: isn't this different to a situation in which you won't stop murdering them even if they accede. Or, say, you occupy France, start killing resisters, and you also carry out a small number of murders of French civilians because they're imagined to be resistant. Is that genocide?

Viva la France! btw.

I am not trying to rank atrocities, by the way; I am trying to understand what is like and what is different, at a core level. <snip>
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=28837&start=40#p617428
The problem with this answer was it wasn’t meant in a similar context of the famine. This is what I meant by when we last left off that I thought confusion was left a·mok. My description was as follows:

« Last I remember I was asking you to clarify this. In the end I think I left you confused and really just gave up on it, and after reading Mann twice I don’t see that in his book. The question isn’t the relationship of nationality to genocide but how it can be a target. »

Apparently I thought it was left off here:
viewtopic.php?p=621889#p621889

What I was trying to ask with the example was where does Mann place a scenario of the following;

*insert country* believes France is the cause of social ills. *insert country* begins an invasion of France and on its warpath indiscriminately exterminates French citizens at every house, town, and city it conquers. The goal of this invasion is the complete destruction not of the French as an ethnic group, but the wholesale destruction of its citizens.

Mann doesn’t give any term to describe this kind of destruction. He does think some crimes of massive scale are not genocide, a perfect example is Indonesia where “500,000” communists were murdered which he labels politicide. The tragedies under Mao and Stalin are labeled Classicide. The point as mentioned earlier though is he doesn’t seem to have a term for the above. Maybe Democide can fill in the gap but it really doesn’t do so for me.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
Joseph E. Davies

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 26180
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Feb 08, 2019 1:13 pm

Denying-History wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:58 pm
The problem with this answer was it wasn’t meant in a similar context of the famine.
I don't understand this, as I didn't answer in the context of famine.
Denying-History wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:58 pm
What I was trying to ask with the example was where does Mann place a scenario of the following;

*insert country* believes France is the cause of social ills. *insert country* begins an invasion of France and on its warpath indiscriminately exterminates French citizens at every house, town, and city it enters. The goal of this invasion is the complete destruction not of the French as an ethnic group, but the wholesale destruction of its citizens.
I would assume genocide, as I explained above (Mann sees special danger when rival ethnonationalisms claim the same territory but his concepts are not restricted to that, e.g., the Holocaust). He doesn't AFAIK look at the France hypothetical.

If, on the other hand, the goal is not "the complete destruction not of the French" but to crush and eliminate the French state in order to assert political mastery or to extract resources, goods, and economic capacity from former France (there are many examples of this, of course), the action is not a genocide, even if there are mass killings to gain control of France
Denying-History wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:58 pm
Mann doesn’t give any term to describe this kind of destruction. He does think some crimes of massive scale are not genocide, a perfect example is Indonesia where “500,000” communists were murdered which he labels politicide. The tragedies under Mao and Stalin are labeled Classicide. The point as mentioned earlier though is he doesn’t seem to have a term for the above. Maybe Democide can fill in the gap but it really doesn’t do so for me.
You previously called Mann's conceptual framework a "dull simplification" of Lemkin whereas it in fact introduces a continuum and dynamic and spells out finer distinctions certainly than the UN definition. In this view the mass murders conducted by Mao, Stalin, and Pol Pot are not only classicides, if my notes are right, but also politicides and fratricides. This is not to succeed at some labeling contest but to clarify intent, dynamic and logic of different kinds of cleansing actions.

Why is it a problem not to conceptualize some mass murder programs as genocide if they follow a distinct and different logic from mass killings aimed at maximal ethnic cleansing? You seem to be implying that it is - and to be starting with an evaluative result you want to obtain rather than trying to clarify foundational concepts.

Mann isn't focused on legal responsibility but on social interactions and logic: his framework answered many of the issues I raised at the start of the genocide thread, giving us ways not to refer to and think of x as y.
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has No Life
Posts: 11746
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:56 pm

Started “Policies of Genocide.”
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 26180
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:39 pm

this book? https://www.amazon.com/Policies-Genocid ... 1138801437 . . . or something else?
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has No Life
Posts: 11746
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:53 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:39 pm
this book? https://www.amazon.com/Policies-Genocid ... 1138801437 . . . or something else?

Yes, that’s it. Sorry, need to be more specific.

Did you read this one?
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 26180
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:57 pm

No, I never heard of it. Let us know how it is!
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has No Life
Posts: 11746
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:16 pm

Will do.
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has No Life
Posts: 11746
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:10 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:31 pm
Taking a break from our subject once this comes available:
The Story of Britain
Roy Strong
This turned out to be a bust. It’s not a Kindle version but an ePub version of a book. I don’t like the format so I returned it.
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has No Life
Posts: 11746
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:50 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:56 pm
Started “Policies of Genocide.”
Finished this today. I can’t recommend it. It’s very short and very general. I purchased it because it was listed as a source for the treatment of Soviet POWs. It had one chapter on it.

I say skip it. It wasn’t worth the cost. It’s also dated.
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has No Life
Posts: 11746
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:47 pm

Picked up “Matters of Testimony: Interpreting the Scrolls of Auschwitz.”
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 26180
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Feb 16, 2019 5:31 pm

very interesting book
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has No Life
Posts: 11746
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat Feb 16, 2019 5:46 pm

I’ve been looking for a good book on the scrolls.
I edited out the second sentence because it made no sense.

:D
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has No Life
Posts: 11746
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:34 am

Speaking of the Auschwitz Museum’s catalogue, anyone read this?
Franciszek Piper and 2 more
Auschwitz Nazi Death Camp
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 26180
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:43 am

Never heard of it. Is that the exact title? Who are the co-authors? Date of publication?
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has No Life
Posts: 11746
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:47 am

That’s the exact title. Piper is listed as the author, this is just the editor, Teresa Swiebocka. The other person is the translator.

This is the only detail:
details of a Nazi death camp from a survivor
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has No Life
Posts: 11746
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:47 am

Publication date:
January 1, 1996
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 26180
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:48 am

Hmmmm, I just plugged into their search bar "Piper" and "Auschwitz Nazi Death Camp" and didn't turn it up. So I will take a wild guess and say that I haven't read it! :)
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has No Life
Posts: 11746
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:26 pm

Started Arad’s updated Action Reinhard book. He still mentions diesel in regards to Treblinka.
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

User avatar
Goody67
Poster
Posts: 496
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:55 pm

Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Goody67 » Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:51 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:26 pm
Started Arad’s updated Action Reinhard book. He still mentions diesel in regards to Treblinka.
Quick, contact Berg, he's the expert when it comes to diesel. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
"Good friends, good books, and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life." - Mark Twain

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has No Life
Posts: 11746
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Feb 19, 2019 8:11 pm

LOL
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has No Life
Posts: 11746
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:41 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:26 pm
Started Arad’s updated Action Reinhard book. He still mentions diesel in regards to Treblinka.
As I was getting out of the car yesterday the door swung and clipped the hand the hand I had this book in. It dropped onto the driveway.

Now, ordinarily this would not be a problem but we had an ice storm yesterday. The book slid down the driveway....and into a puddle.

:mad:

Luckily it is still in readable condition.
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 26180
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:35 pm

My worst such experience came in about 2007 or 2008. It was a mind-blowing spring day in Austin, Texas. I took the book I was reading (vol II of Viktor Klemperer's diaries) to the deck at Mozart's coffee place on Lake Austin. There was a light breeze, the sun was warm, I sat at one of the wooden tables overlooking the water and became happily engrossed in the book. Now, if you know Austin, you know that in the spring the city attracts massive flocks of birds. Like so:

Image

So, yes, suddenly there was a series of plops that, thankfully, missed me but landed square onto the spread to which Klemperer's book was opened. The book was at once unreadable - and I didn't even want to be near it. It wound up in a trash can at Mozart's and Mr Bezos, at my urgent request, sent me another copy . . .
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has No Life
Posts: 11746
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:56 pm

Yeah, that beats mine... :D

I did have a book once that wound up in a snow bank. Unfortunately it fell through to the mud underneath and became unreadable. I’ve also had my children spill juice on books I’ve had in my car. Luckily the jacket took the damage and the books were salvageable.
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 26180
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:29 pm

We had a water leak this fall in our third floor. It was really bad. We wound up with about an inch of water in the first (ground) floor, where sit my computer and hard disks for photography, massive printer, and nearly every title in the Hackenholt Memorial Library. My computer, monitors, hard disks were drenched, as was my printer. They dried out. Fortunately for the titles in my library, where the water came down into the room I'd lain 5 books, including Morgan, Hitler's Collaborators; Kellner, My Opposition; and 3 titles on the occupation of France (I'd read them all my last trip to Sweden, which is why they hadn't been properly sorted). Those books are not in good shape - but they protected a full shelf with maybe 200 books in it. They sacrificed for the larger good . . . :)
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has No Life
Posts: 11746
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:30 pm

LOL, we mourn them for their passing but celebrate their bravery.
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 26180
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:36 pm

And they bow their heads to you in reply, courageous, dutiful souls that they are. Kellner really took it on the chin.
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has No Life
Posts: 11746
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:40 pm

I light this candle in their memory. Like the victims of the Bowling Green Massacre, we shall remember them fondly:

Image
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 26180
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:01 pm

:)
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

User avatar
Kleon_I XYZ Contagion
Poster
Posts: 481
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:06 pm

Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Sat Feb 23, 2019 7:06 pm

Many years ago, I woke up at about 6.30 in a cold winter morning from a noise. I put my feet on the floor and I'm feeling them wet. There was some centimeters of water.
My room was just across the library. I'm struggling to find out what was happening. Finally I entered the library. I feel water in my face and to my body.

What happened.
There's was a hole in the radiator heating machine, and water was sprayed with great, unexpected pressure. This radiator was flawed from the beginning. The guy who sold it to the building owner probably knew it was a radiator with a hole, and he just put some paint on it. But water's acid fluids or whatever 'ate' the paint from the inside.
So, there it was. I was the unlucky bastard who had this radiator just across 2.000 books.
This water spraying for hours before I noticed it destroyed, maybe not all of them, but a very large quantity of books.
It was a real books massacre, all I could see was a kind of 'paper mud'. Only hard covered books survived but in Greece' books market they are rare, most of the Greek books are soft cover. They were hundreds of books really dead forever.

This night comes again and again in my dreams and in my nightmares. I cannot forget it. It was like someone cut and took a part of my body, my soul and my heart.
According to experts and scholars, the 10 stages of every genocide are
Classification Symbolization Discrimination Dehumanization Organization Polarization Preparation Persecution Extermination
... and finally the 10th stage:
Denial
http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/t ... ocide.html
XYZ Contagion (‘Because the truth is contagious‘), an investigative/research political and historical website, deals also with the Srebrenica Genocide
https://xyzcontagion.wordpress.com/about/#English

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has No Life
Posts: 11746
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat Feb 23, 2019 7:08 pm

LOL, Kleon wins!!!!
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 26180
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Feb 23, 2019 7:22 pm

:)
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

User avatar
Goody67
Poster
Posts: 496
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:55 pm

Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Goody67 » Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:14 pm

If anyone has read any of the following books, your thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Shulamit Volkov, Germans, Jews, and Antisemites: Trials in Emancipation
J. A. S. Grenville, The Jews and Germans of Hamburg
Pól Ó Dochartaigh, Germans and Jews Since The Holocaust
Scott Spector, Modernism without Jews?: German-Jewish Subjects and Histories
Amos Elon, The Pity of it All: A Portrait of Jews in Germany 1743-1933
Susanna Schrafstetter and Alan E. Steinweis, The Germans and the Holocaust: Popular Responses to the Persecution and Murder of the Jews

Thanks.
"Good friends, good books, and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life." - Mark Twain

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has No Life
Posts: 11746
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Feb 24, 2019 6:02 pm

Goody67 wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:14 pm
If anyone has read any of the following books, your thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Shulamit Volkov, Germans, Jews, and Antisemites: Trials in Emancipation
J. A. S. Grenville, The Jews and Germans of Hamburg
Pól Ó Dochartaigh, Germans and Jews Since The Holocaust
Scott Spector, Modernism without Jews?: German-Jewish Subjects and Histories
Amos Elon, The Pity of it All: A Portrait of Jews in Germany 1743-1933
Susanna Schrafstetter and Alan E. Steinweis, The Germans and the Holocaust: Popular Responses to the Persecution and Murder of the Jews

Thanks.
I haven’t but I’ll be looking into those titles.
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has No Life
Posts: 11746
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Feb 24, 2019 6:09 pm

Ordered “The Final Solution: The Attempt to Exterminate the Jews of Europe” by Reitlinger (1961 publish date) and “Harvest of Hate: The Nazi Program for the Destruction of the Jews” by L. Poliakov (1954 publish date, 1st edition). I also purchased the Kindle version of Wendy Lower’s “Nazi Empire-Building and the Holocaust in the Ukraine.”

I wanted to see what some earlier works said about the Holocaust.
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843