Brexit

Where no two people are likely to agree.
User avatar
Poodle
True Skeptic
Posts: 10982
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:12 pm
Custom Title: Post-bloom
Location: NE corner of my living room

Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:51 pm

Yeah - that's the one.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 19716
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: After being pimped comes-----

Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:52 pm

I don't know this Mogg fellow at all (Jacob Reese actually I assume unless corrected). Never heard of him before and not that much about Brexit either before about a month ago...but I assume that video tells me everything anyone needs or should want to know about both subjects? Fantastic video even if not interested in either.

Thanks for finding and posting.

[quote=Upton_O_Goode post_id=695727 time=1549578409 user_id=17024


[/quote]
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Poodle
True Skeptic
Posts: 10982
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:12 pm
Custom Title: Post-bloom
Location: NE corner of my living room

Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:00 am

Here's a Brexit countdown timetable from the Guardian.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... approaches

This is positively my last post on this subject - it's all getting me far too hot under the collar.

User avatar
TJrandom
Has No Life
Posts: 12187
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am
Custom Title: Salt of the earth
Location: Pacific coast outside of Tokyo bay.

Re: Brexit

Post by TJrandom » Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:04 pm

Poodle wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:00 am
Here's a Brexit countdown timetable from the Guardian.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... approaches

This is positively my last post on this subject - it's all getting me far too hot under the collar.
Say it isn't so... how else would we see through the smoke?

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 19716
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: After being pimped comes-----

Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:15 pm

Yea........I didn't understand why most of the issues where so "thorny." Seems to me some boat arrives in harbor and they are either subject to EU rules or not. When not.....they are subject to individual National rules that may for obvious reasons default to the EU rules until the old rules are found?

I don't see anything thorny or confusing about such circumstances unless people want to get stupid about it...........oops.........ok. I see the issue. Still not "thorny" in the way that thorny means. "Authority" eg port officials are easily stunned into inaction. Not thorny.....just stupid.
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 19716
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: After being pimped comes-----

Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:57 pm

USA news this morning covering "the new green deal" where the freshman congresscreeps are giving voice to the existential threat of AGW. Good to see. Criticized for being all socialist and totally unacceptable to what being an American is all about.

made me think of Brexit.

Too complicated, but in reality: voting issues like combating AGW or in Brexit there really should be more weight given to the votes of people who are going to have to live with the consequences. a sliding value of the vote based on your age.........even a cut off based on age. Why should some old fart even get to vote on issues that won't affect his life? Ability to get a job when you are on a pension? why should that happen? Same with AGW. Same with a lot of issues. The youth, concerned about the future, voted largely for REMAIN. The oldsters fondly remembering a time that never existed voted to Brexit.

Never trust anyone over 30. Good advice when I was 16-21-25-30-45...........still good advice now. heh, heh..... make that Trust (or don't Trust) - But Verify. I think I'm more anti-over thirty now than when I was younger. Distrust: not age related????
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 19716
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: After being pimped comes-----

Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:46 pm

Fell across this video by accident. all about the Con Job and pros and cons.....................and "unpredictability vs passion==>worth hearing". Starts at 4min and goes for about 3 min. Amazing how similar his view is to mine. Makes me want to move to Beavis or whereever he said.

Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
landrew
Has No Life
Posts: 11712
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:51 am
Location: Fox Meadows

Re: Brexit

Post by landrew » Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:52 pm

Saint Kitts and Nevis
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

User avatar
TJrandom
Has No Life
Posts: 12187
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am
Custom Title: Salt of the earth
Location: Pacific coast outside of Tokyo bay.

Re: Brexit

Post by TJrandom » Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:38 pm

This seems to be a very sensible FTA – just enshrine the same terms as both countries currently have with the EU.
the agreement would maintain UK-Swiss trade under the preferential terms currently available to both countries through an EU free trade deal.
UK-Swiss free trade deal.

User avatar
Poodle
True Skeptic
Posts: 10982
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:12 pm
Custom Title: Post-bloom
Location: NE corner of my living room

Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:13 am

That's the way to do it. Simple and straightforward. Two political entities striking a mutually beneficial agreement.
Whoops - sorry. I promised to say nothing.

User avatar
Poodle
True Skeptic
Posts: 10982
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:12 pm
Custom Title: Post-bloom
Location: NE corner of my living room

Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:48 am

Pull your finger out, Canada!

User avatar
Upton_O_Goode
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5102
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:15 am
Custom Title: Morgan de Veldt
Location: The Land Formerly Known as Pangea

Re: Brexit

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Tue Feb 26, 2019 12:54 am

Hey! Whassup? How come no posts here for two weeks? Time's a-wasting, people! Any progress? On any front? Any front whatsoever?
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

Vyacheslav Mikhailovich Skryabin (“Molotov”)

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 19716
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: After being pimped comes-----

Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Feb 26, 2019 1:03 am

I was gonna post a few things, but I don't wanna piss Poodle off more than I have.

It comes down to (an honest?) assessment at to what the impact of No Deal Brexit would be. My very removed third party oversees don't care impression is that overal/in general/with lots of personal exceptions: Its going to hurt. So.......seems to me only ass-tards would go No Deal Brexit rather than delay the action........but that would only reinforce EU's position which is totally reasonable from the start meaning added impetus to vote the Brexit issue AGAIN with better info at hand.

Ha, ha...........and I still think...........given Brexit is more about the FUTURE than the past: no one over 60 should be allowed to vote on the issue. But then..........thats true about most issues. No one under 30 either? Pros and Cons to all we do, just living with the results.
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Poodle
True Skeptic
Posts: 10982
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:12 pm
Custom Title: Post-bloom
Location: NE corner of my living room

Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:27 am

Actually, there really has been no movement on either side of the impasse. There is one month left in which to a) reach a deal b) forget the whole thing c) delay the whole thing d) leave with no deal.
Meanwhile, several Members of Parliament (Conservative and Labour) have deserted their parties in the hopes of forming a new anti-Brexit alliance. Just like the last time this happened (a couple of decades ago) that's falling flat.
We keep being told that someone will blink at the last moment. We just don't know who'll do the blinking.

EDIT: Current forecasts for the results of any new referendum (but we'd have to delay Brexit to set one up) are the same as the actual result of the first one - a narrowish Leave vote.
EDIT2: At the moment, both main parties (Conservative and Labour) are holding to a basic Leave position. It may not seem so, but that really is the case. The difference is that the official Labour position is to leave whilst remaining a member of the Customs Union (which is tantamount to staying in) and the Conservatives are roughly evenly divided on a deal/no deal Brexit. If the UK leaves without any delay, it can only be a no-deal.

User avatar
Upton_O_Goode
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5102
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:15 am
Custom Title: Morgan de Veldt
Location: The Land Formerly Known as Pangea

Re: Brexit

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Tue Feb 26, 2019 11:38 am

Poodle wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:27 am
At the moment, both main parties (Conservative and Labour) are holding to a basic Leave position. It may not seem so, but that really is the case. The difference is that the official Labour position is to leave whilst remaining a member of the Customs Union (which is tantamount to staying in) and the Conservatives are roughly evenly divided on a deal/no deal Brexit.
Well, there is historical precedent for such a "distinction without a difference."

On a more modest scale, we had one here in Vermont about 25 years ago. Two same-sex couples (all four friends of mine, as it happens) lobbied to get married. (This was the first such case in the US.) There were, as you might expect, numerous politicians eager to speak for God on this issue. The legislature solved the problem by creating the notion of "civil union" and defining it so that participants in one had the same civil rights as a married couple. This left a gap, as one of the four original petitioners reminded me: their rights were not transferable to other states under the "full faith and credit" provisions of the US constitution. A few other states followed the Canadian example and had their supreme courts simply declare that couples of the same sex could marry. But those had the same defects as the Vermont civil unions: they were rejected by the highest legal authority in the land (a multiply-divorced justice of the peace in Kentucky). Finally, the Vermont legislature mustered a two-thirds majority and overrid a Republican governor's veto of legislation redefining marriage. In the following election, posters popped up all over the rural areas of this (very rural) state, saying TAKE BACK VERMONT. The Democrats responded with posters saying TAKE VERMONT FORWARD. In the end, it was a big yawn. The legislators who voted for the bill knew their constituents, and virtually all of them were re-elected. Since then, it's been upheld by a substantial majority even of SCOTUS, where Chief Justice Roberts voted to make it legal all over the US (except in one county in Kentucky, as noted above). The pathetic holdouts have now got no real hope of redress on this issue, despite having a new frothing-at-the-mouth reactionary Catholic on SCOTUS and another one heading up the Attorney General's office.
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

Vyacheslav Mikhailovich Skryabin (“Molotov”)

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 19716
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: After being pimped comes-----

Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Feb 26, 2019 1:06 pm

overrid is an uncommon misconjugation of overrode. My mention of it is NOT hypocrisy as my own misspellings, typos, grammar, wordplay are so many and diverse as to deny correction........but your grammar and spelling are tutorial in presentation and error should be noted.

I don't get the relevance of gay marriage issue in USA to Brexit.....much less the King of Prussia.......I'm sure its there.........makes me feel dumb.

Say.......speaking of hypocrisy: I don't see any reference to Having another Brexit Vote. One Brit saying you should was on our news just last night. And when an issue is polling at near 50/50: there is no basis at all to opine one side or the other will squeak by except to reveal bias.

Amusing.
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Upton_O_Goode
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5102
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:15 am
Custom Title: Morgan de Veldt
Location: The Land Formerly Known as Pangea

Re: Brexit

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:43 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 1:06 pm
overrid is an uncommon misconjugation of overrode. My mention of it is NOT hypocrisy as my own misspellings, typos, grammar, wordplay are so many and diverse as to deny correction........but your grammar and spelling are tutorial in presentation and error should be noted.

I don't get the relevance of gay marriage issue in USA to Brexit.....much less the King of Prussia.......I'm sure its there.........makes me feel dumb.

Say.......speaking of hypocrisy: I don't see any reference to Having another Brexit Vote. One Brit saying you should was on our news just last night. And when an issue is polling at near 50/50: there is no basis at all to opine one side or the other will squeak by except to reveal bias.

Amusing.
Yeah, my spell-checker flagged "overrid" but in my early-morning fog, I didn't take it in. A propos of the correction, I am slowly abandoning the pedantry that used to be one of my most salient features. It used to annoy me no end to hear how someone "snuck" into a theater, but now I'm content to tolerate expressions like "He dove for cover" and "I'm going to lay down and sleep."

I was commenting only on the "distinction without a difference" that Poodle noted in the current Labour position. Just saying we had a similar "distinction without a difference" between "marriage" and "civil union" here. It was necessary to use a fig leaf of distinction of the "separate-but-equal" variety to get enough public support for same-sex marriage at first, but then acceptance led to eliminating the concept of "civil union." The same thing happened with "King IN Prussia" vs. "King OF Prussia" (which is an actual city in Pennsylvania). Sensibilities wouldn't tolerate "King OF Prussia" at first, and so the title had to wait until said King grew strong enough to command respect.
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

Vyacheslav Mikhailovich Skryabin (“Molotov”)

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 19716
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: After being pimped comes-----

Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Feb 26, 2019 11:55 pm

thanks...........all makes sense now. I think being pendantic with onesself is ...........ones choice. Trying to hit other people with it is compulsive. Ha, ha.......good to see decades can have their effect? Detumescence.............making our choices.......pros and cons.
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
TJrandom
Has No Life
Posts: 12187
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am
Custom Title: Salt of the earth
Location: Pacific coast outside of Tokyo bay.

Re: Brexit

Post by TJrandom » Wed Feb 27, 2019 1:57 am

Lol... I stayed in KoP for nearly 6 months some 40 years ago while working for a nearby firm in Malvern which was establishing a subsidiary here. Nice little town. Never knew it as KiP.

User avatar
Poodle
True Skeptic
Posts: 10982
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:12 pm
Custom Title: Post-bloom
Location: NE corner of my living room

Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Wed Feb 27, 2019 5:05 am

The state of play ...
The thing generally known as Mrs May's deal (but actually the result of her large Brexit team working hard for months) is the only plan presented to the EU by the UK. The EU Commission added the infamous backstop arrangement and then declared that the amended document was the only deal on the table and no further amendment was allowable.
The backstop is an open-ended arrangement whereby, to prevent customs problems at the Ireland/Northern Ireland border, Northern Ireland will effectively remain under EU customs arrangements indefinitely. This is not acceptable to the Democratic Unionist Party (the largest single party who hold the votes making the numerical difference between May's success or failure) in Northern Ireland who insist that NI cannot be treated any differently from the rest of the UK. It was therefore mooted that the whole of the UK should be covered by the backstop arrangement and so remain under EU customs arrangements indefinitely. This idea was very quickly unmooted. Mrs May then asked the EU to add a termination date to the backstop and the EU refused to do so.
The backstop itself is presented by the EU as the only feasible solution to the NI/RoI border customs problem, i.e. that the border must remain open in accordance with the Good Friday Agreement between the UK and the RoI. It is the stance of the UK that this (the 'only feasible' bit) simply is not true, as there are alternative arrangements which would work and, indeed, do work in other parts of the world. In particular, there is already such a border arrangement operating between NI and the RoI simply because not all cross-border traffic is internal EU trade.
Then there is the matter of £39 billion which, if the UK remains a member of the EU after March 29th, is payable by the UK to the EU because that's when the new EU financial year begins and all EU members pay their respective dues on that date. Any delay, for whatever reason, in the implementation of Brexit will, therefore, be costly to the UK. It is in the interests of the UK to leave on the proposed date and it is in the interests of the EU to prevent that happening.
Brexit was begun by a declaration of the execution of Article 50 - the EU law governing the departure of member states - and that declaration was made by the UK in March, 2017. It has a two-year execution period after which the declaring state automatically leaves the EU. It is still technically possible (by a hair's breadth) for the UK to revoke that execution - but it would take an Act of Parliament to do so and no majority exists for such an action. For the same reasons, there is no time left to arrange another referendum.
Having said all of that, Mrs May COULD ask for an extension of the negotiations - but that would cost her that £39 billion whilst having no guaranteed result. She is between a rock and a hard place, but she did insist that she wanted the job.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 19716
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: After being pimped comes-----

Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:56 am

News analyst on Public Access today said that for any extension of the Brexit to be made "every" EU member would have to agree to it. The alternative i assume would be the managing group of the EU?....whatever that is??? I assume there is one?......or is it a goatfestival 24/7?

Again, not knowing anything, I'd assume one nation would have an economic interest in keeping the UK out? How that country might be pressured by the others so that the dues would be owing would also be a countervailing force.

So, its looking like a crashout and confirmation of net good or bad coming due pretty fast? Yep. Be careful what you wish for, even moreso, what you vote for.
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Poodle
True Skeptic
Posts: 10982
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:12 pm
Custom Title: Post-bloom
Location: NE corner of my living room

Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:48 am

Yep - every member would have to agree.
I doubt there'd be any objections to the UK remaining - the UK is one of the largest net contributors and no country would be too pleased if part of that burden fell on them. There'd be a lot of triumphant crowing, though.
The 'managing group' is the Commission, who form the Civil Service of the EU. They propose new legislation but have no voting rights.

https://europa.eu/european-union/about- ... -bodies_en

User avatar
TJrandom
Has No Life
Posts: 12187
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am
Custom Title: Salt of the earth
Location: Pacific coast outside of Tokyo bay.

Re: Brexit

Post by TJrandom » Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:10 am

No deal exit looks like a winner to me. Yes, painful at first, but as with all things human where there is a desire to do so - improved over time. And that L39 billion could be better spent fixing those initial issues.

User avatar
Poodle
True Skeptic
Posts: 10982
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:12 pm
Custom Title: Post-bloom
Location: NE corner of my living room

Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:21 am

I suspect that's true, TJ. The problem at the moment is that future trade deals (ie non-EU deals) can only be struck in principle. There are lots of positive signs and promises, though. However, Year 1 AE (after Europe) is probably going to be difficult until we rid ourselves of EU bureaucracy. It's a heart/head thing, and I think most Brits are prepared to go with heart.
Fish will be plentiful, though.

User avatar
Upton_O_Goode
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5102
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:15 am
Custom Title: Morgan de Veldt
Location: The Land Formerly Known as Pangea

Re: Brexit

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:55 am

Poodle wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 5:05 am
Mrs May COULD ask for an extension of the negotiations - but that would cost her that £39 billion whilst having no guaranteed result. She is between a rock and a hard place, but she did insist that she wanted the job.
That about sums it up. She's not going to pour £39 billion into a strategy whose benefits are doubtful and in any case, have a low probability of being realized. So, four weeks from Friday, it's over. On that, I'd be willing to bet.
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

Vyacheslav Mikhailovich Skryabin (“Molotov”)

User avatar
Poodle
True Skeptic
Posts: 10982
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:12 pm
Custom Title: Post-bloom
Location: NE corner of my living room

Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Wed Feb 27, 2019 11:35 am

On the other hand - Brexit being such a simple, logical procedure - there may be another exception hidden in a Brussels cupboard which allows a negotiation extension with no penalty. If such a thing exists, I have never heard of it. Yet.
EDIT: So I checked again ... According to the EU, the £39 billion is a divorce settlement payable upon the UK leaving the EU. But the small print apparently applies only in the event of leaving with a deal. In the event of a no-deal-at-all-in-any-shape-or-form Brexit, the money stays in UK coffers. I predict a very lucrative period for lawyers in the near future.
So don't place that bet quite yet.

User avatar
OutOfBreath
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2318
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:38 pm
Custom Title: Persistent ponderer
Location: Norway

Re: Brexit

Post by OutOfBreath » Wed Feb 27, 2019 1:08 pm

Poodle wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:21 am
However, Year 1 AE (after Europe) is probably going to be difficult until we rid ourselves of EU bureaucracy. It's a heart/head thing, and I think most Brits are prepared to go with heart.
Trouble is, that bemoaned bureaucracy is for a large part aimed at keeping goods standardized and shiftable over borders. That doesn't change much, member of EU or not. The UK cant make new standards and expect them to be accepted by other countries, which are already in agreement about the existing standards...

I think more bureaucracy is blamed on Brussels than they really deserve in that respect. Has for a long time been a suitable scapegoat for national politicians who want to appear responsive to "the public".

Peace
Dan
What is perceived as real becomes real in its consequences.

"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert

User avatar
Poodle
True Skeptic
Posts: 10982
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:12 pm
Custom Title: Post-bloom
Location: NE corner of my living room

Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Wed Feb 27, 2019 2:00 pm

Already done, Dan ...
From the British Standards Institute website -

"Through BSI’s membership of the international and regional European standards organisations, UK experts representing industry, consumers and other stakeholders will continue to influence the standards that are used to support regulatory requirements such as those that will support the UK Mark post Brexit.
Notably, following the decision taken in the general assemblies of both organizations, BSI will continue to be a full member of CEN and CENELEC regardless of the conditions under which the UK leaves the EU, including in the event that the UK leaves the EU without an agreement. BSI experts will still be entitled, as now, to participate in CEN and CENELEC technical committees while BSI will continue to enjoy full voting rights in both organizations’ decision-making bodies. During the transition period for the statutes which will begin from the date of the UK’s departure from the EU, the statutes of the organizations will be reviewed with a view to BSI continuing as a full member on a permanent basis from the end of that transition period in December 2020."

I spent a couple of very boring years transitioning from BS5750 to ISO9000. Never again.

User avatar
OutOfBreath
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2318
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:38 pm
Custom Title: Persistent ponderer
Location: Norway

Re: Brexit

Post by OutOfBreath » Wed Feb 27, 2019 2:19 pm

In other words, the "bureaucracy" in terms of standardization and playing along with EU's rules will keep going along anyway.
RIP many leavers' motivations regarding "stupid regulations".
UKs 60 million people will have to adhere to standards applied by the remaining EUs 450 million people anyway.

Peace
Dan
What is perceived as real becomes real in its consequences.

"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert

User avatar
Poodle
True Skeptic
Posts: 10982
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:12 pm
Custom Title: Post-bloom
Location: NE corner of my living room

Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:32 pm

Well, some things just make sense, Dan, and international standards belong in that category - but they're ISO standards, no matter what they're called in individual countries, and ISO is not an EU organisation.

Matthew Ellard
Obnoxious Weed
Posts: 30516
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am
Custom Title: Big Beautiful Bouncy Skeptic

Re: Brexit

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:48 am

OutOfBreath wrote: UKs 60 million people will have to adhere to standards applied by the remaining EUs 450 million people anyway.
Isn't that a good thing? In a decade or so, when the UK asks to rejoin the EU they will already have EU standards in place. It will save time.

I like Australia to adopt EU standards. That way we can open the EU's door a little bit more, to increase our trade with the EU.
:D

User avatar
Poodle
True Skeptic
Posts: 10982
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:12 pm
Custom Title: Post-bloom
Location: NE corner of my living room

Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:43 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:48 am
OutOfBreath wrote: UKs 60 million people will have to adhere to standards applied by the remaining EUs 450 million people anyway.
Isn't that a good thing? In a decade or so, when the UK asks to rejoin the EU they will already have EU standards in place. It will save time.

I like Australia to adopt EU standards. That way we can open the EU's door a little bit more, to increase our trade with the EU.
:D
8-)

User avatar
Poodle
True Skeptic
Posts: 10982
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:12 pm
Custom Title: Post-bloom
Location: NE corner of my living room

Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:09 pm

Something may be happening ...

From the Express ... "Mr Barnier, the EU’s chief Brexit negotiator, insisted he does not “feel the need to spend a lot more time on” divorce deal as technical talks draw to another conclusion. Speaking in Vienna, the French eurocrat said EU and UK lawyers are working on legally-binding assurances that reinforce the temporary nature of the Irish backstop. Brexit Secretary Stephen Barclay and Attorney-General Geoffrey Cox are expected to travel to Brussels next week to conclude work on the renegotiation ahead of the next ‘Meaningful Vote’, which is expected to be held on March 12."

It's not too clear at present whether this is a breakthrough or complete Eurospeak - what does "reinforce the temporary nature" mean as opposed to, for instance, defining a termination date for the backstop? We will know soon, I presume - either the hard Brexiteers will begin to cheer or they'll be down in the dumps.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 19716
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: After being pimped comes-----

Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:17 pm

I googled, found, and read a brit site re the economic effects of Brexit. Still no discussion right on point, and all discussion has unknown bias "but" many links state that the UK makes a "net contribution" to the EU meaning plain enough that the yearly membership fee is larger than the identified benefits/payments they get back except some point is made about it all breaks even when "private entities" are included. So...already...more branches on the decision tree than I can think about in one setting.

Upshot is: why would any country "want" to be part of the EU if they are a net positive contributor year after year? Germany, Uk, France....etc. I think I read years ago that Germany had an interest in the whole EU arrangement by keeping pressure on Greece to continuously sell off its national assets to pay for its unpayable national debt?==>I don't know what that means.

EU internal politics. Thornier than USA Federalism Politics as at least we "are" one country.......but everytime one of our "net basket cases" starts voting against federal "socialist" programs when they are the biggest recipients of same, I often do think let them secede: or just kick them out.

Pros and Cons to all we do. Just on a net, net, net economic CASH basis, does anyone really "know" what the effect will be? Values to be figured out later?..............................then, there's the rest of the world...............
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Poodle
True Skeptic
Posts: 10982
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:12 pm
Custom Title: Post-bloom
Location: NE corner of my living room

Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Fri Mar 01, 2019 9:02 am

Being a net contributor means exactly what you think it does, bobbo. And it's a worthwhile objective just so long as the organisation to which you are a net contributor continues in what you consider to be worthwhile objectives.
The UK is not federally-minded, and I don't think it ever will be (disregard the history of the British Empire - that really doesn't exist in anything but a tiny portion of the UK psyche any longer. Brits are proud of their history but they also recognise that it IS history). However, it is now the stated aim of the EU (the Commission in particular) that federation is paramount - the not-too-hidden objective is a USE. There is no urgent and overriding reason for this other than its simple existence. I think that it is a geopolitical error of huge proportions - and the UK wants no part of it. George Orwell got it right.
In an imperfect world, the World Trade Organisation offers something closer to UK wishes than ANYTHING else on offer, in that it moves towards free trade more positively than any alternative.

User avatar
Upton_O_Goode
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5102
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:15 am
Custom Title: Morgan de Veldt
Location: The Land Formerly Known as Pangea

Re: Brexit

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:05 pm

Poodle wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:09 pm
Something may be happening ...

From the Express ... "Mr Barnier, the EU’s chief Brexit negotiator, insisted he does not “feel the need to spend a lot more time on” divorce deal as technical talks draw to another conclusion. Speaking in Vienna, the French eurocrat said EU and UK lawyers are working on legally-binding assurances that reinforce the temporary nature of the Irish backstop. Brexit Secretary Stephen Barclay and Attorney-General Geoffrey Cox are expected to travel to Brussels next week to conclude work on the renegotiation ahead of the next ‘Meaningful Vote’, which is expected to be held on March 12."

It's not too clear at present whether this is a breakthrough or complete Eurospeak - what does "reinforce the temporary nature" mean as opposed to, for instance, defining a termination date for the backstop? We will know soon, I presume - either the hard Brexiteers will begin to cheer or they'll be down in the dumps.
So, we'll watch and wait....less than four weeks to go now. I suppose there is a SENSE in which the whole solar system is temporary, so I'd be happy to sign on to legislation that reinforces that condition. Now if the EU wants to get SPECIFIC and QUANTITATIVE about that temporariness...aye, there's the rub!
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

Vyacheslav Mikhailovich Skryabin (“Molotov”)

User avatar
Poodle
True Skeptic
Posts: 10982
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:12 pm
Custom Title: Post-bloom
Location: NE corner of my living room

Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Sat Mar 02, 2019 2:29 pm

UoG - you are fast becoming a Euro expert.

User avatar
Upton_O_Goode
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5102
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:15 am
Custom Title: Morgan de Veldt
Location: The Land Formerly Known as Pangea

Re: Brexit

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Sat Mar 02, 2019 9:33 pm

Poodle wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 2:29 pm
UoG - you are fast becoming a Euro expert.
Oh no. I'm just reading and learning. My point in the previous post really doesn't differ from what you said in the post before.
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

Vyacheslav Mikhailovich Skryabin (“Molotov”)

User avatar
Poodle
True Skeptic
Posts: 10982
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:12 pm
Custom Title: Post-bloom
Location: NE corner of my living room

Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Sun Mar 03, 2019 6:38 am

Not much of an update, but ...

Mrs May yesterday announced that the next meaningful vote in Parliament will be held on March 12th (which we already knew) and put forward a bit of a plan should her deal be voted down again (which it will be because it contains the unlimited backstop arrangement). In such a case, a vote will be held the next day on whether or not Parliament would support a no-deal Brexit. A yes vote there would have straightforward results. But if we get a 'no, we would not' result then another vote will be held, this time on whether Parliament supports a limited extension to Article 50 (the bit of the Treaty dealing with a member leaving the EU) to give us yet more time to negotiate with the Commission which refuses to negotiate.
At that juncture, she made the rather important statement that any extension which carried us past the end of June would force the UK to participate in European Parliament elections - which would be completely silly unless we intend to stay in the EU which, of course, would contravene the infamous referendum result.

All simple and straightforward, as usual.

User avatar
Poodle
True Skeptic
Posts: 10982
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:12 pm
Custom Title: Post-bloom
Location: NE corner of my living room

Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:40 am

We finally have some numbers - although they're in a report produced by a pair of confirmed Brexiteers (from the organisation Global Britain, which is firmly anti-EU). However, no one from the Remain camp has shouted very loudly that the figures are in any way wrong. So ...
Since the end of 1998, says the report, UK trade with China has grown by a factor of 12 and with the US by a factor of 2.6. With the rest of the world (excepting the EU) it has grown by a factor of 3.1 and, finally, with the EU it has grown by only a factor of 2.
I feel sure that someone will shout VERY loudly soon. The figures are blatant (but meaningless) propaganda. High growth factors as well as low growth factors tell you nothing unless you also know the relative starting points. This kind of stuff really isn't needed.
There is some good news, though - Spain and the UK are about to sign a treaty confirming Gibraltar's status as UK territory.