Russian Civil War Casualties

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Jeffk 1970
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Russian Civil War Casualties

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Feb 03, 2019 8:35 pm

I see this often on Twitter, the Judeo-Bolshevik hordes slaughtered a 100 million good white Christians during some indeterminate time period. They specify Russia (Soviet Union) and single out Lenin as the perpetrator.

Well, considering he died in 1924 and was quite ill for the last couple of years of his life this seems ridiculous. I generally press them on where they get this and wind up blocked, called a Jew, etc.

I think a lot of this comes from adding those that died during the Russian Civil War. I fail to see the logic of including those that died during the Civil War. Both sides committed atrocities, both sides forced peasants to turn over food, etc.

I glanced through “The Vanquished,” Robert Gerwarth gives a number of 1.7 million dead during the Great War, 3 million dead during the Civil War and a total population loss of some 10 million up to 1922. He footnotes these numbers from Dietrich Beyrau’s Post-War Societies, International Encyclopedia of the First World War and a Russian study from 2000.

That population loss includes some 2.5 million people that became refugees and left the former Russian Empire by 1922. The population of what was known as the Russian Empire and became the USSR dropped from 142 million to 132 million by 1922.

If I get a moment I’ll find “A People’s Tragedy” and see what numbers it has.
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

Balmoral95
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Re: Russian Civil War Casualties

Post by Balmoral95 » Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:49 am

From memory, ca 8 million +/- ....

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Re: Russian Civil War Casualties

Post by landrew » Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:16 am

A Russian friend of mine, who grew up in the Soviet Union and is a bit of an amateur historian told me that Stalin liked a few people, but Lenin hated everybody. He was a genuine misanthrope. If he had managed to live long enough, it's likely he would have eradicated millions of lives, maybe more than Stalin.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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Re: Russian Civil War Casualties

Post by Balmoral95 » Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:38 am

landrew wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:16 am
A Russian friend of mine, who grew up in the Soviet Union and is a bit of an amateur historian told me that Stalin liked a few people, but Lenin hated everybody. He was a genuine misanthrope. If he had managed to live long enough, it's likely he would have eradicated millions of lives, maybe more than Stalin.
So what?

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Re: Russian Civil War Casualties

Post by landrew » Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:40 am

Balmoral95 wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:38 am
landrew wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:16 am
A Russian friend of mine, who grew up in the Soviet Union and is a bit of an amateur historian told me that Stalin liked a few people, but Lenin hated everybody. He was a genuine misanthrope. If he had managed to live long enough, it's likely he would have eradicated millions of lives, maybe more than Stalin.
So what?
If you're not interested in other people's opinions, why bother to use this forum?
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

Balmoral95
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Re: Russian Civil War Casualties

Post by Balmoral95 » Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:00 am

landrew wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:40 am
Balmoral95 wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:38 am
landrew wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:16 am
A Russian friend of mine, who grew up in the Soviet Union and is a bit of an amateur historian told me that Stalin liked a few people, but Lenin hated everybody. He was a genuine misanthrope. If he had managed to live long enough, it's likely he would have eradicated millions of lives, maybe more than Stalin.
So what?
If you're not interested in other people's opinions, why bother to use this forum?
I like it here.

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Jeffk 1970
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Re: Russian Civil War Casualties

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:07 am

Balmoral95 wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:49 am
From memory, ca 8 million +/- ....
I’m going to drag out some other resources on it. Probably tomorrow.
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

Balmoral95
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Re: Russian Civil War Casualties

Post by Balmoral95 » Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:11 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:07 am
Balmoral95 wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:49 am
From memory, ca 8 million +/- ....
I’m going to drag out some other resources on it. Probably tomorrow.
I'll follow up as well....

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Re: Russian Civil War Casualties

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Feb 04, 2019 12:14 pm

Balmoral95 wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:00 am
landrew wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:40 am
Balmoral95 wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:38 am
landrew wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:16 am
A Russian friend of mine, who grew up in the Soviet Union and is a bit of an amateur historian told me that Stalin liked a few people, but Lenin hated everybody. He was a genuine misanthrope. If he had managed to live long enough, it's likely he would have eradicated millions of lives, maybe more than Stalin.
So what?
If you're not interested in other people's opinions, why bother to use this forum?
I like it here.
LOL
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

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Jeffk 1970
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Re: Russian Civil War Casualties

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:12 pm

landrew wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:16 am
A Russian friend of mine, who grew up in the Soviet Union and is a bit of an amateur historian told me that Stalin liked a few people, but Lenin hated everybody. He was a genuine misanthrope. If he had managed to live long enough, it's likely he would have eradicated millions of lives, maybe more than Stalin.
Lenin instituted the NEP (New Economic Policy) and embraced ethnic minorities. He allowed them (within reason) to teach and learn about their culture. Stalin eliminated the NEP and purged minorities because he was paranoid about war. Stalin also purged the Bolshevik old guard, including those considered to be his friends. Those around him were terrified of him because they never knew when he might betray them.

Don’t get me wrong. Lenin was callous towards the suffering of others and willingly embraced terror tactics against his enemies (real or perceived). He was hardly a saint and I have no idea what would have happened if he’d lived.
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: Russian Civil War Casualties

Post by landrew » Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:20 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:12 pm
landrew wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:16 am
A Russian friend of mine, who grew up in the Soviet Union and is a bit of an amateur historian told me that Stalin liked a few people, but Lenin hated everybody. He was a genuine misanthrope. If he had managed to live long enough, it's likely he would have eradicated millions of lives, maybe more than Stalin.
Lenin instituted the NEP (New Economic Policy) and embraced ethnic minorities. He allowed them (within reason) to teach and learn about their culture. Stalin eliminated the NEP and purged minorities because he was paranoid about war. Stalin also purged the Bolshevik old guard, including those considered to be his friends. Those around him were terrified of him because they never knew when he might betray them.

Don’t get me wrong. Lenin was callous towards the suffering of others and willingly embraced terror tactics against his enemies (real or perceived). He was hardly a saint and I have no idea what would have happened if he’d lived.
Dictators can change over time. Stalin became more murderous as his paranoia grew, along with his self-image as a godlike figure. My point is that there's no telling which direction Lenin would have taken, had he lived.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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Re: Russian Civil War Casualties

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:55 am

Turns out Figes’ book is not particularly helpful. He just states it’s in the region of around 10 million people. I might dig a little more.
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: Russian Civil War Casualties

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:56 am

On a personal note the above was my 10,000 post. Man I spend a lot of time here... :D
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Jeffk 1970
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Re: Russian Civil War Casualties

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:56 am

Hey, I just became a True Skeptic!!!!

Jeffk 1970
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A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: Russian Civil War Casualties

Post by landrew » Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:56 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:55 am
Turns out Figes’ book is not particularly helpful. He just states it’s in the region of around 10 million people. I might dig a little more.
It's always going to be an estimate, but I don't see the significance of greater accuracy.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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Re: Russian Civil War Casualties

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:47 pm

landrew wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:56 am
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:55 am
Turns out Figes’ book is not particularly helpful. He just states it’s in the region of around 10 million people. I might dig a little more.
It's always going to be an estimate, but I don't see the significance of greater accuracy.
I strive for the greatest amount of accuracy as possible. If nothing else getting a range helps me figure out what is true and what is false.
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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landrew
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Re: Russian Civil War Casualties

Post by landrew » Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:39 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:47 pm
landrew wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:56 am
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:55 am
Turns out Figes’ book is not particularly helpful. He just states it’s in the region of around 10 million people. I might dig a little more.
It's always going to be an estimate, but I don't see the significance of greater accuracy.
I strive for the greatest amount of accuracy as possible. If nothing else getting a range helps me figure out what is true and what is false.
Not to belabor the point, but does it matter if it's 10 million or 9 million or 14 million? It's a massive tragedy regardless.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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Re: Russian Civil War Casualties

Post by Denying-History » Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:34 pm

Give me a moment, I’ll post an excerpt from Wheatcroft.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
Joseph E. Davies

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Jeffk 1970
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Re: Russian Civil War Casualties

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:02 pm

landrew wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:39 pm
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:47 pm
landrew wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:56 am
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:55 am
Turns out Figes’ book is not particularly helpful. He just states it’s in the region of around 10 million people. I might dig a little more.
It's always going to be an estimate, but I don't see the significance of greater accuracy.
I strive for the greatest amount of accuracy as possible. If nothing else getting a range helps me figure out what is true and what is false.
Not to belabor the point, but does it matter if it's 10 million or 9 million or 14 million? It's a massive tragedy regardless.
I understand that. Why I strive for accuracy is seeing those who exaggerate tragedies for political gain.
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: Russian Civil War Casualties

Post by landrew » Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:05 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:02 pm
landrew wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:39 pm
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:47 pm
landrew wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:56 am
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:55 am
Turns out Figes’ book is not particularly helpful. He just states it’s in the region of around 10 million people. I might dig a little more.
It's always going to be an estimate, but I don't see the significance of greater accuracy.
I strive for the greatest amount of accuracy as possible. If nothing else getting a range helps me figure out what is true and what is false.
Not to belabor the point, but does it matter if it's 10 million or 9 million or 14 million? It's a massive tragedy regardless.
I understand that. Why I strive for accuracy is seeing those who exaggerate tragedies for political gain.
I don't think you'd score a single point in doing that.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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Jeffk 1970
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Re: Russian Civil War Casualties

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:18 pm

landrew wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:05 pm
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:02 pm
landrew wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:39 pm
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:47 pm
landrew wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:56 am
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:55 am
Turns out Figes’ book is not particularly helpful. He just states it’s in the region of around 10 million people. I might dig a little more.
It's always going to be an estimate, but I don't see the significance of greater accuracy.
I strive for the greatest amount of accuracy as possible. If nothing else getting a range helps me figure out what is true and what is false.
Not to belabor the point, but does it matter if it's 10 million or 9 million or 14 million? It's a massive tragedy regardless.
I understand that. Why I strive for accuracy is seeing those who exaggerate tragedies for political gain.
I don't think you'd score a single point in doing that.
Everyone needs a hobby.
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843