Brexit

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Re: Brexit

Post by TJrandom » Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:26 am

Night... a Tuesday Night! ;)

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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:11 pm

The Malthouse Compromise - remember that name. It's a proposal which has become popular in Parliament, and involves a technologically-controlled border, an extension of the transition period until 2021, and "... the prime minister would renegotiate the backstop element of her Brexit deal to replace it with a free trade agreement".
It would solve all differences. However, the Commission have stated that such technology does not exist (what? - video cameras and vehicle licence recognition don't exist? It's already in place on the Irish border!) and Ireland has said that the backstop arrangement has already been agreed (no - that isn't true either). They don't like the free trade idea either, even though it would mean them getting the £39 billion upon Brexit. It's also pretty hypocritical given the list of free EU trade agreements below ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_ ... agreements

It solves all the problems. What are you waiting for, EU? Pull your bloody fingers out!

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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jan 29, 2019 4:38 pm

Good info in the link provided. I assume "being negotiated" is diplomatic for "can't reach an agreement." I wonder if the CON continues with whatever various terms are in the different agreements? All described as "Free Trade." Really?

In general, if an agreement is not reached, as in the Malthouse Compromise, its because the party not signing doesn't want to? They want the alternative.......whether they say so or not because thats what happens.

I'll edit if Malthouse contains anything interesting besides whining.
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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jan 29, 2019 5:53 pm

The decision by the electorate was to "Leave the European Union" which won by a majority of 1,269,501 votes (3.78%) over those who had voted in favour of "Remain a member of the European Union" with England and Wales voting to "Leave" whilst Scotland and Northern Ireland voted to "Remain".
Results of the 2016 United Kingdom European Union membership ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/.../Results_of ... an_Union_m...

.........aye! There's the rub. Seems like "history" created the separation, human nature a constant pull back.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Tue Jan 29, 2019 6:01 pm

Your comments are illuminating, bobbo. The Malthouse Compromise was drawn up by a number of MPs who are all Remainers.
So - you don't like what the Brexiteers say and you don't like what the Remainers say. Only one basic case or the other can prevail, but you appear to call both possible outcomes 'a con'.
As I said, it's illuminating - but very puzzling.

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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jan 29, 2019 6:16 pm

Whats puzzling? Both sides "lie" to get the support for what they want. Right or wrong, its almost always the case that if anyone admits anything "wrong" or a downside or a negative about their program that honesty is used by the otherside who admits to no such conditions in their own position to whip up the vote against them. Nothing puzzling at all. Now.....I only read one link re Malthouse (I thought it might have been hammered out in a pub?...but thats MY interest)...seems to me it was Emphasized that Malthouse was agreed to by Brexiters and Remainders? You say otherwise.

Let me go check:........................"A compromise Brexit plan has emerged overnight in Westminster with the backing of heavyweight Tory Brexiters and remainers, including Jacob Rees-Mogg and Nicky Morgan.

Two factions have thrown their weight behind the unexpected new compromise plan, backed by several ministers, which would involve a redrafting of the backstop and an extension of the transition period until 2021. //////// https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... rexit-vote


Heh, heh: Poodle you do crack me up. CONNING ME....while saying you are puzzled. Claiming you are for remaining but are bound by the Brexit. Poodle: are you in any fashion a "well known" Brexiter?
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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Tue Jan 29, 2019 6:30 pm

Read what I said, bobbo - it "was drawn up by a number of MPs who are all Remainers". It is accepted as a good compromise by both Remainers and Brexiteers. And you have completely misread what I've said. I'm not for remaining at all. Go back a few posts - you'll understand soon.

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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jan 29, 2019 7:05 pm

so poodle, what is anyone to think of your true but partial/stilted statement? I have no need to "go back" and argue about who said what. Just like a new REF.......I proceed based on TODAY, not YESTERDAY.

sO....In any fashion, are you a well known Brexiter?
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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:35 pm

Waiting for the beer to chill and the rice and beans to warm, this took 2 minutes to find:
"n another attempt to stop you descending into the realms of personal attack, I will reiterate that I voted to stay in the EU in the referendum, but I happen to believe that the principles of democracy are far and away more important than my personal political opinion, and therefore support the clearly demonstrated will of the majority of voters at that time. I would rather we hadn't voted to leave, but that's irrelevant now. We are leaving."
//// So, how did I misread that?

Likewise, from the link re Malthouse:
"How did the compromise come about?

The plan is based on a protocol drafted by the former Brexit minister Steve Baker but the initiative has been called the “Malthouse compromise”, after the housing minister Kit Malthouse, who entreated the two warring factions to attempt talks.
/// Yet you say it was drafted by the Remainders as if that is relevant when it is supported by both sides like I'm supposed to assume bias or what???

Takes more than a careful read to understand your position?

I feel constrained to say once again: I don't care about Brexit or not, just the arguments one way or the other. ((Yes, in a vacuum, not knowking much, I think remaining makes more sense.......but not caring, I probably wouldn't vote. That allows democracy for those who do care. Why they care is always an interest of mine, mainly: Should anyone vote their own PERSONAL interest or should they vote for what they think is the best interest of the Country which may or may not coincide to their own druthers? Quite often an "age" issues.......for the various reasons there are. In general: I don't like old people. They have in the main forgotten how to change their minds on new information, if they ever knew................
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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:02 pm

Well, none of it matters now (again). Theresa May won the vote on her amended deal in Parliament today, the extreme Brexiteers having shifted their position to express support for her proposal if and only if the EU-controlled backstop is removed from their version of the proposal (which, if it stayed, would give the EU carte blanche to say when, if ever, the UK actually did leave). The EU Commission, meeting at the same time, has reiterated its insistence upon the backstop's existence and stated categorically that there will be no deal unless the UK accepts that position. They have, apart from an hour or so left of today, a mere 59 days left to make an alternative proposal, should they actually want to.
May cannot move from her present position any longer (she cannot act against the cross-party Parliamentary vote which happened today). She will still go to Brussels to discuss the matter with anyone who will talk to her constructively, and she will continue trying to remove the backstop from any EU-authored agreement until time runs out at the end of March. The only remaining room for manoeuvre sits with the EU, and then only in terms of the backstop. If they don't blink, it's a no-deal exit fully effective from March 29th.

Just in case, I am reinstating my vegetable garden.

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Re: Brexit

Post by TJrandom » Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:26 pm

Veggies take a while to grow... you might want to import some spam from down under, and maybe some hard biscuits. Survival food that makes you wonder if you want to survive at all... :roll:

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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:41 pm

TJrandom wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:26 pm
Veggies take a while to grow... you might want to import some spam from down under, and maybe some hard biscuits. Survival food that makes you wonder if you want to survive at all... :roll:
I live in a tiny village with a single shop. It sells Spam. It is truly awful stuff. Hmmm - there's no barf smiley!!

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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:23 am

I like fried span sandwiches with cheese and eggs. Not too thick.....just that flavor of grease. Never had it as a kid either.
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Re: Brexit

Post by TJrandom » Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:03 am

I believe this came from Gord .... Image

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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:24 pm

Entrenchment is a good word.
La la May, nothing if not a trier, is determined to go back to Brussels to negotiate a good Brexit deal. Michel Barnier, nothing if not repetitive, has issued yet another statement to say the the Irish backstop is a non-removable part of a deal which he thinks has already been agreed.
There has been no agreement. Not only that, but there CANNOT be an agreement containing a backstop as that would (literally) give the EU complete sovereignty over the UK for a period determined solely by the EU, even if that's for ever.
If Barnier is telling the truth, then the only way out is a no-deal Brexit - and, at that point, the EU would insist upon a hard border between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland (because, as you know, the EU is not aware of any technological solution, therefore one doesn't exist). That, in turn, shatters the Good Friday Agreement which both the UK and Ireland have categorically sworn to uphold.
You may have noted that you've heard all of this before. I've certainly written it before. People all over Europe but particularly in Ireland and the UK have heard it all before. Ever heard young kids arguing? - You! ... No, you! ... No, you! ... ad infinitum.
The Good Friday Agreement has saved hundreds of lives in both Irelands, and only a complete dickhead would think of threatening its existence. Saving lives takes precedence over saving face every time. OK - back to the bloody drawing board, politicians and bureaucrats and, this time, come up with something less {!#%@} stupid.

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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:36 pm

Poodle wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:24 pm

The Good Friday Agreement has saved hundreds of lives in both Irelands, and only a complete dickhead would think of threatening its existence.
You are referring of course to those who voted for Brexit?

Dickhead: those who vote for something but fervently don't want the immediate consequences of their vote.

...........................yep.

I'm so happy you voted against Brexit...............but why do you want the consequences now?
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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:13 pm

Brexit Question: do you want to Brexit? /////// Small majority says yes.

Do you want to Brexit causing a hard border between the Irelands? ////// Large Majority: Hell No!!!!!!! What do you think we are?........Dickheads????

...........and yet some say: Well: you voted 2 years ago so suck it up.

..................More than one kind of dickhead. Ha, ha. I'm joking.....and laughing my tit off right now.......but there is always that kernel.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:27 pm

Bobbo - once and for all (and for goodness' sake, READ it this time) the Republic of Ireland and the UK are the signatories to the Good Friday Agreement, and both of those self-determinant states agree upon its efficacy and are determined to uphold it. The EU is not a state - it is a collection of independent countries who agree, in the main, on a common approach to areas of common interest. When the UK and Ireland joined the European Economic Community (since usurped by the EU) on the same day, there was not even the faintest whisper of the EU Commission's existence, let alone its constant attempted usurpation of executive power. The Good Friday Agreement (please read about it before mouthing off about it again) is a bilateral treaty which has a vital reason for its existence, and it is NOT the prerogative of any other state or wannabee state to mess around with it. Suggesting the return of a hard border between Northern Ireland and Ireland is stupid, irresponsible, and dangerous and both Ireland and the UK are adamant that it will not be allowed to happen.
The described state of affairs predates the EU and, certainly, the members of the EU Commission. It has nothing to do with the EU Commission. It is outside their remit and certainly outside their understanding. The pretended threat to its existence is NOT a result of Brexit - it is a typically stupid statement from an overgrown bureaucracy which has forgotten its primary purpose in life. Now - which bits of that do you not understand?

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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:58 pm

Gee Poodle: you have me befuddled.

Your argument is so obviously defective and transparently manipulative of facts and theory, language and logic, History and Current Events, I don't know how to best respond.

If............."if" ............ the Brexit Vote has nothing to do with any border between the Irelands.............then there is no issue and you have informed me to my benefit. At first I was only reacting to the set up you provided.....but after drafting it, I could see no error in it. Calling forth dickheads will ordinarily catch my attention..and Pro Tip: make me look for my mirror.
The described state of affairs predates the EU and, certainly, the members of the EU Commission.
Everything that happened yesterday predates today. The statement is a nullity.
It has nothing to do with the EU Commission.
So...the backstop is also a nullity? It has no meaning whatsoever. People upset and holding confidence votes all on totally false issues? Well, that in itself is interesting. Why is that state of affairs allowed to continue? Why doesn't someone point out the King is wearing no clothes and get on with the Crash Out.....or does that also have nothing to do with the EU Commission?
It is outside their remit and certainly outside their understanding.
See the immediately foregoing..............or..............start to recognize this sounds more like wishful thinking, denial, or a con job. Course.....I always prefer the combo plate. Review: "outside their remit" reminds me of a favorite cartoon I used to have pinned to my wall: a convict in jail in black and white stripes clashing his tin cup against the prison bars: "You can't do this to me............." I think of that cartoon often: its reality bumping your nose when you think nothing is there. but....I don't really think you think that. More thinking in this reference than any notion that what the EU IS DOING, is somehow not what they are doing. Such direct causation is rarely discounted so.
The pretended threat to its existence ....
Lots of bad things result from pretended threats. Sadly, no one can tell the difference between a real threat, a pretend threat, or an unavoidable consequence until it is all too often too late. Best to treat them all the same?
The pretended threat to its existence is NOT a result of Brexit -
How do you understand "causation." An easy rule is the "but for" test as in: but for Brexit, would the pretend threat even exist?
Now - which bits of that do you not understand?
A textual review tells me either all of it or none of it? The first is my burden, the second is yours................

Is this fun? I'm enjoying it..............but then...........I'm a dickhead.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:47 pm

I agree, bobbo - you are befuddled. Look - here are a few examples of things which have nothing to do with the EU. Chinese politics. Russian space research. The role of the Balkan states in World War 1. Australian rules on marrying a kangaroo. The Good Friday Agreement.
Here's a good Wikipedia article to read. It explains everything about the agreement and how all involved parties bent over backwards to get the agreement through and stop the violence and killing, and it worked. Do note all the involved parties and the signatories to the agreement - not one of them is the EU. But watch out for the last paragraph which very briefly describes the cynical manner in which the EU Commission has attempted to take over the agreement for its own political ends. There's no EU signature on the agreement itself, you'll note, and that's because it had nothing to do with them and still doesn't. Using it as a bargaining tool is sheer cynicism and should be treated accordingly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Friday_Agreement

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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jan 31, 2019 1:38 am

Well Poodle, as stated, I agree: its either me or you.

You don't have to be a signatory to an agreement to come in years later and negate it.

Third or fourth time: if EU has nothing to do with it: then whats all the talk about the need for a backstop?

You can't be this mental.............I might have to consider you think I'm stupid enough to take half a second to reconsider your argument?...........the EU isn't. "You can't do this to me..............." Ha, hA.

Year One: A and B make agreement One.

Year 20: A, B, and C make agreement Two.

Year 30: B and C terminate agreement Two.

Year 32: C informs A that Agreement Two is inconsistent with Agreement One and their choice is to comply with the terms of A-Two or suffer penalties or expulsion: and thats what takes place..........even though.......C never signed A-One.

Its: math.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:23 am

Bobbo, you're taking the piss.
The backstop is not simply a buzzword. Let me try to explain it to you. First of all, the Good Friday Agreement demands an open border between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland (which is, as you know, a part of the UK). The Agreement was made between the UK and the Republic of Ireland - it has nothing to do with the EU. It is none of their business.
The open border was facilitated by both the UK and the Republic of Ireland joining the EU on exactly the same date, meaning that cross-border transaction regulations were all negated. The fact that the UK is now leaving the EU presents potential financial problems in that customs duties may apply in the future. There are ways of dealing with such a situation which are now in operation in several places around the world, but the EU Commission denies their existence. Their proposed solution is to make Northern Ireland comply fully with EU regulations. However, that is political fairy dust as Northern Ireland, being part of the UK, will obviously operate under UK terms in the future.
However, the EU Commission dreamers think that Northern Ireland could, indeed, operate under EU rules whilst still being part of a UK which wouldn't do that. This is precisely what the backstop is. The EU Commission, though, has forgotten what the people of Northern Ireland and, in particular, those of a Democratic Unionist Party persuasion, would want to see - and that is, by a massive margin, to remain fully a part of the UK. That Party is the one holding all the cards in the UK Parliament, as it is the difference between a Theresa May majority and a Conservative defeat. They insist that Northern Ireland must not, under any circumstances, be treated any differently from the rest of the UK.
To meet that requirement, the backstop (which is nothing more than the continuance of all EU regulation) would have to be extended across the whole of the UK, but it is an integral part of the proposed backstop that it is the EU and ONLY the EU who would be able to say when the backstop arrangement is terminated. It does not take a genius to see that the backstop is simply continued EU membership but with all UK powers removed. It would be the end of the UK as a political entity. So even you, bobbo, can see how ridiculous a proposal it is. No ifs, no buts, no maybes - it is a matter of the UK's right to exist independently, and it is being proposed not by any other nation or even group of nations, but by a gang of civil servants with delusions of grandeur.
It ain't going to happen.

EDIT: An afterthought for you to ponder, bobbo. An equally valid solution to the problem would be for the UK to demand that the Republic of Ireland, whilst still being a member of the EU, operates under UK regulations for an unspecified period which could be terminated only by the UK. There you go - border problems all solved.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:28 pm

I recall a famous line from "Gone with the Wind" in which Scarlett O'Hara tells her faithful old "household servant" that she's going to see Ashley Wilkes to ask him for a loan. The servant replies, "Askin' ain't gittin'." The EU can ASK Ireland and the UK to abrogate the agreement between them. But all that will achieve is a no-deal Brexit. Facts are stubborn things.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Thu Jan 31, 2019 1:09 pm

You've hit the nail squarely on the head, UoG. And, as the agreement has kept the peace very effectively in the whole of Ireland for years, neither the north nor the south would waste even a moment on abrogation.
But I would add a little extra - as things stand there is nothing at all which is going to prevent a no-deal Brexit. It may well all be a case of which side is going to blink first, but I'd rather those games were not played.

EDIT: While I'm here, this is an interesting article ...

https://capx.co/forget-brexit-the-eu-ma ... -collapse/

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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:33 pm

The Agreement was made between the UK and the Republic of Ireland - it has nothing to do with the EU. It is none of their business.
Except it does which is what the entire backstop issue is all about which you go into next. You need to recognize that just because you don't like something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. As in: other people disagree.
There are ways of dealing with such a situation which are now in operation in several places around the world, but the EU Commission denies their existence.
Yes, the EU wants to PUNISH the UK for voting to leave the EU. I thought we both agreed this makes sense from the EU point of view.
Their proposed solution is to make Northern Ireland comply fully with EU regulations. However, that is political fairy dust as Northern Ireland, being part of the UK, will obviously operate under UK terms in the future.
The same fairy dust applies to thinking that RofI should act as anything other than a member of EU. Its the very same question/issue/desired result. Pure hypocrisy to demand different outcomes depending on your druthers.
It would be the end of the UK as a political entity.
No it wouldn't. Take a chill pill, hysterics never look good. it would only mean UK would have the same powers its has right now as an EU member....just like all the other members of the EU. Contesting for leadership/influence within the EU against Germany in the Main then France?==>Yes of course. Silly hoomans still involved, no change there either.
So even you, bobbo, can see how ridiculous a proposal it is.
Hey....I already agreed with you that only a dickhead would vote for Brexit and then think you could keep all the benefits and not suffer any of the consequences. Can't you think past a baby grabbing for the candy?
EDIT: An afterthought for you to ponder, bobbo.
We already did several posts back. Your entire position is with blinders on considering ONLY what you want. The EU has certain existential threats it is also facing by the BREXIT insurrection. There is no historical example of the Greater Power taking a knee to the demands of the lesser power when the two are in conflict.

Real Politik.

I have no devotion to the idea: but OBVIOUSLY: the alternative to all the finally recognized larger reality of the conflict initated by the Brexit is to vote again..................with as stated right from the start: a better understanding of the realities.

Its always a choice. Only people with perceived vested interests in the status quo ante call for the dead hand of History to deal the cards. It never works.
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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:43 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:28 pm
I recall a famous line from "Gone with the Wind" in which Scarlett O'Hara tells her faithful old "household servant" that she's going to see Ashley Wilkes to ask him for a loan. The servant replies, "Askin' ain't gittin'." The EU can ASK Ireland and the UK to abrogate the agreement between them. But all that will achieve is a no-deal Brexit. Facts are stubborn things.
Excellent quote.......not recognized by most politicians most of the time. The mirror image is also true: asking to leave to EU but keep EU borderless functions is also only going to achieve a no-deal Brexit.

Why should the EU make it easy for the UK?...............and everyone else in line to dissolve their union? Its the same question for all involved. More of an existential threat to the EU than the UK. Brexit = Breakit. I'll say Third Time: "If I" were the EU....I'd plan to keep on hurting the UK for their departure. The border wall would just be the start. Let the UK back in only on worst terms than they had before.......or what they left over to begin with as all members of the EU really should be treated the same. I mean: the truth really should be everyone's guide. Would have voted down Brexit just to begin with???? BHWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.........and so forth.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Thu Jan 31, 2019 4:12 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:33 pm
The Agreement was made between the UK and the Republic of Ireland - it has nothing to do with the EU. It is none of their business.
Except it does which is what the entire backstop issue is all about which you go into next. You need to recognize that just because you don't like something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. As in: other people disagree.
I'll simply deal with your first bit of blather and leave all the rest alone, as I'm fed up with trying to explain things to you.
There is no 'except' about it, bobbo. The Good Friday Agreement was signed off by the Republic of Ireland and the UK. Nowhere on that document is there a nod, a wink, a nudge or a signature from the EU. The Good Friday Agreement is NOT what the backstop is about in any way except its direct contradiction of that Agreement. The EU had no input to the Agreement, nor does the EU have any kind of legislative power to alter the Agreement in any way. This is a matter of fact and of international law. Neither the EU Commission nor your opinion can alter that. It is not a matter of like or dislike, as you seem to think. Being a bilateral agreement, it can be amended only with the agreement of both signatories or rescinded by any one of the signatories. Any agency not a signatory to the Agreement, such as the EU, have as much influence over the Agreement as a flea on the Moon.
You are labouring under the complete misapprehension of the nature of the EU. It is trying to become a political unity (one of the reasons behind Brexit) but, at this moment in time, it is no such thing.
If you've actually read that, bobbo, then you will understand why your conflation of the Agreement and the backstop is so wrong. The backstop and the Agreement cannot co-exist in the real world. One contradicts the other. So have you got all that? I'll reiterate - the Good Friday Agreement is absolutely sod all to do with the EU.

EDIT: You don't, by any chance, think the EU really IS a political union, do you?
Last edited by Poodle on Thu Jan 31, 2019 4:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jan 31, 2019 4:23 pm

I do respect your passion on the subject Poodle............................................so.....................................with the befuddlement I mentioned earlier, I'll hold my earlier posts on the subject in abeyance.

I read your post again and recall my resort to the math of it, the textual analysis: not including the names/subject of anything.....just the ABC delineation of parties. I'll make another go of it: A and B build a bridge. C comes along and blows it up. Question: is there a bridge?
You are labouring under the complete misapprehension of the nature of the EU. It is trying to become a political unity (one of the reasons behind Brexit) but, at this moment in time, it is no such thing.
Ok.......THAT hits home. so....what is the "remedy" if the EU determines that the R of I is not following EU rules when trading with a non-EU entity? I assume they levy fines or ultimately kick the offender out? Blow up the bridge? Yes....No????
The backstop and the Agreement cannot co-exist in the real world. One contradicts the other. So have you got all that? I'll reiterate - the Good Friday Agreement is absolutely sod all to do with the EU.
I agree and thats my basis of understanding right from the start......which is very much like expecting Brexit but no EU Border Control. Logic? saying one contradicts the other IS sod.

I'm with and support your passion..........but your words are illogical and inconsistent. Still, we are all passionate creatures. I am a bit set back....not much....but a little.

I suppose...........................a real open issue then is how would/could an open border between the Irelands work? Would it really disadvantage the EU? Is the EU bluffing??? Why shouldn't the EU still punish the UK????? Still lots of questions that Brexit immediately calls for and does not answer. Dominoes do fall.......nothing takes place in a vacuum.

Enjoy your day...........
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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jan 31, 2019 4:49 pm

Ha, ha.............another example of people becoming illogical and inconsistent when they are passionate on a subject.

.................always..........befuddles me. Its why I could never be a diplomat: I just don't get it.........((the passion.....the passion I say.))

example: the EU is a political entity. Not of one kind, but of the kind that it is. Passionate?--to claim otherwise.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:11 pm

Bobbo, there is already an open border between the Irelands.

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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:10 pm

Well Poodle...........there is being right and wrong and being logical and illogical. All four variable are independent, yet still its easier to be right when you are logical and its harder to be right when you are illogical.

Of course there is already an open border between the Irelands. So what? Now....explain what that statement is logically related to without mentioning Brexit or the EU which you have illogically stated is irrelevant.

Go========================>

While I google the cartoon "You Can't Do This To Me."
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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:58 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 4:23 pm
... I suppose...........................a real open issue then is how would/could an open border between the Irelands work? Would it really disadvantage the EU? Is the EU bluffing??? ...
It was this post from you, bobbo.

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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:28 pm

It is open right now while the Irelands are both part of the EU. Really irrelevant with how it WOULD work under EU rules.

You, knowingly or not, are just being obtuse. Passion? Manipulation?? Obtuse to think it was worthy of being posted. I mean really Poodle: up your game. Say whatever you want about what you think I don't understand or haven't read.....but actually engage the several questions you have avoided like the plague.....................

Really.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:49 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:28 pm
It is open right now while the Irelands are both part of the EU. Really irrelevant with how it WOULD work under EU rules.
Actually, it was open even BEFORE both Irelands were part of the EU.
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

Vyacheslav Mikhailovich Skryabin (“Molotov”)

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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:11 pm

Quite true Upton. And BEFORE THAT, it was closed again, then open, then closed, then open again.

The division of Ireland: so artificial. Endlessly interesting it has been and continues to be causing TROUBLES of various kinds.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:34 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:28 pm
It is open right now while the Irelands are both part of the EU. Really irrelevant with how it WOULD work under EU rules ...
I really haven't the foggiest notion what you're talking about now, bobbo. It IS working alongside (definitely not UNDER) EU rules right now.
It will continue to work if the UK exits the EU because the Prime Minister of the UK and the President of the Republic of Ireland have both said that it will continue as it is, regardless of whether the backstop is put into practice or not. Both of those people have greater regard for the preservation of human life than for the preservation of trade protection.
Perhaps what is confusing you is the backstop, which is an EU concept. What it means (as far as the EU is concerned) is that Northern Ireland would continue to operate under EU trade regulations whereas the rest of the UK would not, and so the EU would have no bothers or worries about the border. The Republic of Ireland would also like that to be the future situation as it makes their lives simpler too. I have already explained how and why it would actually involve the whole of the UK.
Whether you have noticed or not, there is a slight problem in the described situation. The people who would be jumping through hoops to satisfy the desires of the EU Commission would be the very people who are leaving to get out of the reach of the EU Commission. It is simply not even vaguely practical. If Theresa May tried to accept it, she would be out of a job in two seconds flat and replaced by someone like Boris Johnson or Jacob Rees-Mogg, both of whom would be much more militant in their Brexiteering than is dear old Theresa.
Do you have Irish heritage by any chance, bobbo?

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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Fri Feb 01, 2019 7:49 am

I trust that you all felt the Earth move over the last couple of days?
Michel Barnier, Chief Brexit negotiator for the EU, has begun to backtrack. From his oft-repeated position of there being absolutely no alternative to the Irish backstop arrangement, he has now decided that if the backstop is going to be unacceptable (as it appears) then an alternative solution must be found - checks and inspections must be performed away from the border because there must be no physical border. This man, remember, is one of the EU team which stated categorically that such solutions do not exist. However, I must not crow like a triumphant cockerel - if the EU Commission is, finally, coming to its senses then that is all to the good. I do suspect that the till-now silent Angela Merkel has stuck her oar in the water, but that's simply my opinion.
If true (and there is no reason to believe otherwise) then this is the first real breakthrough in the situation which will enable constructive discussions to go forward. It's not a victory in any way - but it puts reality back into the negotiations in place of useless rhetoric.
Take a Brownie Point from me, Mr. Barnier.

Edit: Yes - it was Angela Merkel.

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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Feb 01, 2019 4:22 pm

Poodle, only because you asked me directly. Family roots have been traced back about 400 years to the Tax collector of London. Passed thru Ireland I think but never stayed there. Went to Canada for 300 years before moving to USA. In the main: engineers. Designed, built, and operated grain mills then later more automotive endeavors. Lost it all in the Great Depression by which I consider myself to be directly damaged. History, rolls on. I don't consciously consider any part of my "heritage" as relevant to anything. No "pride" at all which I think is for people who have no personal accomplishments: aka: most people. Heh, heh.

You are right (no doubt?) that I fail to appreciate certain nuances and consequences of things backstopped.

Still..........with all good will intended.......too much of what you post is logically inconsistent and simply wrong. You don't substantively respond to these learning moments usually only challenging my reading and comprehension skills (fair enough in one sense) and repeating what you have already said. ............. which causes me to ask: are you Irish? ((ftn 1))

..........similarly, is it fair of you to ask me direct personal questions when you don't answer them yourself? As in: are you in any way a known Brexiteer? Again: all in good will.

ftn 1: I still smile when remembering a visit to Colonial Williamsburg and the living exhibit of first settlers. A man was eating his food with a knife and fork and I asked if he ever just used his hands (I forget why...seems rather stupid in isolation, but must have been in context to something he said????) and he responded "Eat with our fingers? Nay....we be not Irish here." I thought that was well placed humor.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Fri Feb 01, 2019 4:30 pm

I have English, Scottish, Welsh, Irish and Italian ancestry, bobbo, none of them more than three generations away.

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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Feb 01, 2019 4:35 pm

Ha, ha.....THATS not the question. As hinted if not clearly stated: heritage is irrelevant to anything interesting.....although folklore if not taken seriously can be fun. Right or wrong, but I think its right, we people are the same the world over. and we all love fairytales.
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