It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:53 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:02 am
gorgeous wrote: Fact check: Dozens of Democrats, including Senate Minority Leader Schumer did vote for the Secure Fence Act of 2006, which authorized building a fence along about 700 miles of the border between the US and Mexico.
What was else was in that bill, demanded by the Democrats, that you purposefully left out
gorgeous wrote: @NBCNews Отговор до @NBCNews
"B отговор до @NBCNews" is a Russian Trump propagandist you complete idiot. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Indeed, the Russian title means "In rebuttal to...".

And SINCE 2006, the stream of people entering illegally has dried to a trickle. What was a serious problem back then, isn't any more, since GW Bush and Obama increased the number of border patrol agents. And a secure fence is not the Wall Trump was proposing, and....well, let's just wind this up with the greatest piece of idiocy Trump has come up with in the past 24 hours:
Toronto Star wrote:When he arrived in McAllen, Texas for an immigration roundtable at a Border Patrol station, Trump derided critics who dismiss walls as outdated and ineffective.

He said some old technology, such as the wheel, is timeless.

“A wheel is older than a wall,” he said.

He repeated it a few seconds later: “The wheel is older than the wall.

“Do you know that?”

Defensive walls predate wheels by thousands of years. (Jericho’s famous wall existed around 8,000 BC; the wheel is thought to have been invented around 3,500 BC.)
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

Vyacheslav Mikhailovich Skryabin (“Molotov”)

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by gorgeous » Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:32 pm

bulgarian ...I somehow translated a page
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by OlegTheBatty » Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:07 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:53 am
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:02 am
gorgeous wrote: Fact check: Dozens of Democrats, including Senate Minority Leader Schumer did vote for the Secure Fence Act of 2006, which authorized building a fence along about 700 miles of the border between the US and Mexico.
What was else was in that bill, demanded by the Democrats, that you purposefully left out
gorgeous wrote: @NBCNews Отговор до @NBCNews
"B отговор до @NBCNews" is a Russian Trump propagandist you complete idiot. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Indeed, the Russian title means "In rebuttal to...".

And SINCE 2006, the stream of people entering illegally has dried to a trickle. What was a serious problem back then, isn't any more, since GW Bush and Obama increased the number of border patrol agents. And a secure fence is not the Wall Trump was proposing, and....well, let's just wind this up with the greatest piece of idiocy Trump has come up with in the past 24 hours:
Toronto Star wrote:When he arrived in McAllen, Texas for an immigration roundtable at a Border Patrol station, Trump derided critics who dismiss walls as outdated and ineffective.

He said some old technology, such as the wheel, is timeless.

“A wheel is older than a wall,” he said.

He repeated it a few seconds later: “The wheel is older than the wall.

“Do you know that?”

Defensive walls predate wheels by thousands of years. (Jericho’s famous wall existed around 8,000 BC; the wheel is thought to have been invented around 3,500 BC.)
Trumps' history book?
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:46 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:07 pm
Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:53 am
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:02 am
gorgeous wrote: Fact check: Dozens of Democrats, including Senate Minority Leader Schumer did vote for the Secure Fence Act of 2006, which authorized building a fence along about 700 miles of the border between the US and Mexico.
What was else was in that bill, demanded by the Democrats, that you purposefully left out
gorgeous wrote: @NBCNews Отговор до @NBCNews
"B отговор до @NBCNews" is a Russian Trump propagandist you complete idiot. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Indeed, the Russian title means "In rebuttal to...".

And SINCE 2006, the stream of people entering illegally has dried to a trickle. What was a serious problem back then, isn't any more, since GW Bush and Obama increased the number of border patrol agents. And a secure fence is not the Wall Trump was proposing, and....well, let's just wind this up with the greatest piece of idiocy Trump has come up with in the past 24 hours:
Toronto Star wrote:When he arrived in McAllen, Texas for an immigration roundtable at a Border Patrol station, Trump derided critics who dismiss walls as outdated and ineffective.

He said some old technology, such as the wheel, is timeless.

“A wheel is older than a wall,” he said.

He repeated it a few seconds later: “The wheel is older than the wall.

“Do you know that?”

Defensive walls predate wheels by thousands of years. (Jericho’s famous wall existed around 8,000 BC; the wheel is thought to have been invented around 3,500 BC.)
Trumps' history book?
Absolutely. What else would he have read to give him the crazy idea that he knows something a 7-year-old doesn't know?
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

Vyacheslav Mikhailovich Skryabin (“Molotov”)

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:59 pm

Maybe some hope for the Democrats in 2020. I don't know Sherrod Brown, but if he got elected from Ohio, he can't be a flaky coastal radical. Let's hope there are no skeletons in his closet.
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Gord » Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:34 am

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:46 pm
OlegTheBatty wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:07 pm
Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:53 am
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:02 am
gorgeous wrote: Fact check: Dozens of Democrats, including Senate Minority Leader Schumer did vote for the Secure Fence Act of 2006, which authorized building a fence along about 700 miles of the border between the US and Mexico.
What was else was in that bill, demanded by the Democrats, that you purposefully left out
gorgeous wrote: @NBCNews Отговор до @NBCNews
"B отговор до @NBCNews" is a Russian Trump propagandist you complete idiot. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Indeed, the Russian title means "In rebuttal to...".

And SINCE 2006, the stream of people entering illegally has dried to a trickle. What was a serious problem back then, isn't any more, since GW Bush and Obama increased the number of border patrol agents. And a secure fence is not the Wall Trump was proposing, and....well, let's just wind this up with the greatest piece of idiocy Trump has come up with in the past 24 hours:
Toronto Star wrote:When he arrived in McAllen, Texas for an immigration roundtable at a Border Patrol station, Trump derided critics who dismiss walls as outdated and ineffective.

He said some old technology, such as the wheel, is timeless.

“A wheel is older than a wall,” he said.

He repeated it a few seconds later: “The wheel is older than the wall.

“Do you know that?”

Defensive walls predate wheels by thousands of years. (Jericho’s famous wall existed around 8,000 BC; the wheel is thought to have been invented around 3,500 BC.)
Trumps' history book?
Absolutely. What else would he have read to give him the crazy idea that he knows something a 7-year-old doesn't know?
He also thinks this: https://www.thejournal.ie/trump-migrant ... 4-Jan2019/
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP has claimed that gangs transporting illegal migrants across the US-Mexico border have “ have bigger, stronger, and faster vehicles than police”.
I wonder where he's getting that idea from?



Ohhhh, it's youtube!

I just hope he never sees The Dark Knight Rises or he might want to place a travel ban on Santa Prisca.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:57 am

Gord wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:34 am
He also thinks this: https://www.thejournal.ie/trump-migrant ... 4-Jan2019/
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP has claimed that gangs transporting illegal migrants across the US-Mexico border have “ have bigger, stronger, and faster vehicles than police”.
I wonder where he's getting that idea from?



Ohhhh, it's youtube!

I just hope he never sees The Dark Knight Rises or he might want to place a travel ban on Santa Prisca.
Naw, this is probably personal observation. I'm sure we've all seen those migrant caravans of two-seater sports cars streaming across the border so fast the Border Patrol can't stop them.
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

Vyacheslav Mikhailovich Skryabin (“Molotov”)

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:08 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:57 am
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP has claimed that gangs transporting illegal migrants across the US-Mexico border have “ have bigger, stronger, and faster vehicles than police”.
I wonder where he's getting that idea from?
I assume he is garbling up speed boats delivering drugs around Maro Lago with cars in general. Confusion is easy....overdosing on cheetos at 3AM.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by scrmbldggs » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:06 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:57 am
Gord wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:34 am
He also thinks this: https://www.thejournal.ie/trump-migrant ... 4-Jan2019/
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP has claimed that gangs transporting illegal migrants across the US-Mexico border have “ have bigger, stronger, and faster vehicles than police”.
I wonder where he's getting that idea from?



Ohhhh, it's youtube!

I just hope he never sees The Dark Knight Rises or he might want to place a travel ban on Santa Prisca.
Naw, this is probably personal observation. I'm sure we've all seen those migrant caravans of two-seater sports cars streaming across the border so fast the Border Patrol can't stop them.
Them migrant caravans.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by OlegTheBatty » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:28 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:06 pm
Them migrant caravans.
Yep, them. Now you know why GM is closing down American and Canadian plants and moving them to Mexico.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by scrmbldggs » Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:12 am

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:28 am
TJrandom wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:58 pm
When the dems finally get the government being paid for working, it would be good if they could back-pay the workers who were affected.
They absolutely will, and the Republicans will gladly go along with it. Everybody agrees about that.
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=27067&p=691248&sid ... 85#p691248
Even Trump is engaging in illegal shenanigans to keep paychecks coming to employees of the IRS.
That's so that his wealthy friends don't have to wait for their newly installed government handouts.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:11 am

scrmbldggs wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:12 am
Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:28 am
TJrandom wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:58 pm
When the dems finally get the government being paid for working, it would be good if they could back-pay the workers who were affected.
They absolutely will, and the Republicans will gladly go along with it. Everybody agrees about that.
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=27067&p=691248&sid ... 85#p691248
Even Trump is engaging in illegal shenanigans to keep paychecks coming to employees of the IRS.
That's so that his wealthy friends don't have to wait for their newly installed government handouts.
And now that the TSA screeners and air traffic controllers are getting restless, suddenly we hear they'll all get a $500 bonus when the shutdown ends. Who promised that? It seems to me that would have to be voted by the House, or else it would have to come from somewhere within the Homeland Security Agency budget. So, where will they get the....? Hmmm, here's an idea: The funds for the Wall won't be used for many years, so perhaps they could be "re-directed"?
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by scrmbldggs » Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:19 pm

Give 'em even more. Seems many are not only serving, but serving cheerfully - as the mature and responsible examples certain otheRs are not.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:52 pm

I think the GOP is flinching. Yesterday, Lindsay Graham was urging Trump to declare the emergency and build the wall. Now, staring into the abyss, he suggests that Trump FIRST open the government and give the Democrats three weeks to capitulate before declaring the emergency.

So, we may not get the declaration of emergency after all. Surely enough Republicans can see the damage they're taking to know that they are neck deep in the Big Muddy and had better not move forward. What they'll try to do is get Trump to announce that he's going to be tough but recognizes that people are suffering from the shutdown, then gradually let other news come in and crowd out the fact that he's not, after all, going to press for that wall. He's taking serious hits with midwestern farmers right now. You know, those self-reliant despisers of the freeloaders in the big cities, who would never ask government for anything, except the subsidies they are entitled to.
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by JO 753 » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:57 am

Putin haz no motivation to cave. He iz racking up points faster than ever now, so will direct Trump to keep the shut down going.

Chuck and Nancy are seeing the anger rizing agenst the GoP, so will be happy to let it go on.

It will go on till the GoPs finally figure out they are the biggest loozrz.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:49 am

JO 753 wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:57 am
Putin haz no motivation to cave. He iz racking up points faster than ever now, so will direct Trump to keep the shut down going.

Chuck and Nancy are seeing the anger rizing agenst the GoP, so will be happy to let it go on.

It will go on till the GoPs finally figure out they are the biggest loozrz.
And beyond. As this shutdown and the Wall get LESS popular with everyone else, they get MORE popular among Republican voters, so Mitch McConnell and his cohorts won't dare oppose them. The only solution will be to recall every goddamned one of them. This will NOT go much past the state of the union message. There will be massive resignations among TSA people, air-traffic controllers, and others vital to the economy. We're closer than might appear to actual chaos and economic breakdown. Trump will undoubtedly try to use his State of the Union address to lobby and harangue Democrats. Of course, they get to respond afterward, and they'll be ready, that's for sure. Just make sure that Schumer delivers the response, not Pelosi. She continues to blather on about the moral aspects of the shutdown and its effects on those who want to immigrate. She's absolutely tone deaf about what appeals to people outside the Bay Area.

Note added: Trump MAY use the SOTU address to announce dramatically that he is declaring an emergency or (more likely now that he's been shown what a disaster that would be for him) to announce that he will allow the government to re-open with a fixed date for Democrats to cave and give him the money he wants.
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Tom Palven » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:37 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:49 am
There will be massive resignations among TSA people, air-traffic controllers, and others vital to the economy.

This is just an aside, fwiw.

My old friend, Phil Orban, from Bloomfield, NJ, who dated my sister for awhile, was a pilot with American Airlines for several decades.

He was never a libertarian or politically active in any sense of the word.

He once told me long ago that the air traffic controllers caused more problems than they solved, that the planes had something called transponders, and that the pilots could do a better job without the controllers.

Haven't spoken to Phil in several years, and don't know how he would feel now, but maybe Bobbo, as a pilot, and perhaps others, might have a comment on this.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:40 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:49 am
...Trump MAY use the SOTU address to announce dramatically that he is declaring an emergency...
What emergency? The mummified one? :-P
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:06 pm

Well, thanks TP. No....I don't see how. I flew all over the world with many "first time ever" landings at new airports. Yes...pilots can fly the airplane and land them.....but I don't see how we could "order" the landings at any even slightly busy airport. I can imagine some kind of automated system/program assigning slots by some algorhythm but it falls prey to a common recognition: "Flight is not inherently dangerous, just very unforgiving." and another one: "Anyone can fly an airplane......as long as everything goes right." Two axioms I agree with. I don't see how aircraft with low fuel and other less than all out emergencies could be dealt with by pilots in the air.....maybe AI can handle that. Its almost all automated now.

I've always wondered just how much "control" is exercised by our control system BEFORE we even take off? I mean "something" must stop every freaking airline to schedule their flights into Kennedy at 8AM? I know there are "gates" and "slots" that airlines bargain over because of landing TIME/scheduling issues.....just don't know if it could be detailed enough to replace the Tower.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by OlegTheBatty » Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:54 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:52 pm
I think the GOP is flinching. Yesterday, Lindsay Graham was urging Trump to declare the emergency and build the wall. Now, staring into the abyss, he suggests that Trump FIRST open the government and give the Democrats three weeks to capitulate before declaring the emergency.

So, we may not get the declaration of emergency after all. Surely enough Republicans can see the damage they're taking to know that they are neck deep in the Big Muddy and had better not move forward. What they'll try to do is get Trump to announce that he's going to be tough but recognizes that people are suffering from the shutdown, then gradually let other news come in and crowd out the fact that he's not, after all, going to press for that wall. He's taking serious hits with midwestern farmers right now. You know, those self-reliant despisers of the freeloaders in the big cities, who would never ask government for anything, except the subsidies they are entitled to.
They're not flinching enough.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Tom Palven » Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:54 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:06 pm
've always wondered just how much "control" is exercised by our control system BEFORE we even take off? I mean "something" must stop every freaking airline to schedule their flights into Kennedy at 8AM? I know there are "gates" and "slots" that airlines bargain over because of landing TIME/scheduling issues.....just don't know if it could be detailed enough to replace the Tower.
I wonder if other airport personnel sitting at computers do all that, and the air traffic controllers do something else that might be accomplished with transponders)?

Maybe someone else can chime in. I'm not interested enough to search for and study the issue.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Austin Harper » Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:26 pm

Basically airports have a certain number of gates, which dictates how many planes can be on the ground at any given time. Each airplane landing and taking off also takes a certain amount of time on the runway, plus the amount of time after they pass through that the air is too turbulent for another plane to pass through safely/comfortably. Airlines lease a certain number of gates at airports, and those pretty much correspond to their allowed time on the runways. Flight times are staggered in such a way that there is an opening for landing at one airport the appropriate amount of time (the length of the flight) after a plane departs from another airport. That schedule is up to the airports and airlines. Air traffic control makes sure that planes in flight are not on intersecting paths in 3D space, and that when they come in for landing and takeoff that enough time has passed since the last plane to not have turbulence problems. The bigger the plane, the longer the time until the next plane can follow.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:42 pm

But remember, "I'm the only one who can protect you."

Right!
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:43 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:06 pm

I've always wondered just how much "control" is exercised by our control system BEFORE we even take off?
Not enough. (See my previous post.)
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by TJrandom » Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:14 pm

Trump’s I am not a crook moment… I never worked for Russia

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Tom Palven » Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:23 am

Austin Harper wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:26 pm
Air traffic control makes sure that planes in flight are not on intersecting paths in 3D space, and that when they come in for landing and takeoff that enough time has passed since the last plane to not have turbulence problems.
Can pilots handle this with transponders without the help of air traffic control?
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Austin Harper » Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:36 am

Maybe in the future as flight controls and air traffic control consoles get simpler, but for now it's way too much for them to handle themselves during flight.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:12 am

TJrandom wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:14 pm
Trump’s I am not a crook moment… I never worked for Russia
And, in his reply to Fox News on this question, he very pointedly tried to intimidate Michael Cohen, threatening Cohen's father with hints of criminal activity, while denying that he knew anything about such activity. (Don't try to figure out how that can be; your head will explode.) He sounded exactly like a Mafioso saying what a shame it would be if anything happened to your brother's dry-cleaning business.
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:16 am

And, while we're figuring out how Trump can finger Michael Cohen's father as a criminal while simultaneously denying that he knows anything about any criminal activity, can someone also explain how he can threaten to ruin a NATO ally (Turkey) economically? Isn't it the motto of NATO that an attack against one is an attack against all? So, should the rest of the signatories to NATO now take up arms in defense of Turkey?
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:19 am

Austin Harper wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:26 pm
Air traffic control makes sure that planes in flight are not on intersecting paths in 3D space, and that when they come in for landing and takeoff that enough time has passed since the last plane to not have turbulence problems. The bigger the plane, the longer the time until the next plane can follow.
I recall hearing a lecture some 30 years ago, when new technology was introduced using an advanced radar system, that the equations used to determine the location of an echo actually had extraneous solutions, that is, solutions not corresponding to any possible physical location. I've been a little uneasy flying ever since...
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Gord » Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:00 am

Tom Palven wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:23 am
Austin Harper wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:26 pm
Air traffic control makes sure that planes in flight are not on intersecting paths in 3D space, and that when they come in for landing and takeoff that enough time has passed since the last plane to not have turbulence problems.
Can pilots handle this with transponders without the help of air traffic control?
I took the test to be an air traffic controller in my late 20s. The short answer is: No. There are situations where pilots have more information and ability to prevent a collision, but there are other situations where an air traffic control system is the only way to prevent collisions.

Letting pilots do it themselves would be like herding cats. An individual can prevent a collision with everything else as long as everything else remains unchanging. But if everything else is also being piloted by an individual who is trying to avoid collisions with every other thing, then suddenly you've got chaos. One pilot's jockeying for position will cause other pilots to compensate, which will cause everyone to need to react to all the changes. In an uncrowded airspace, that might be easy enough, but in modern crowded airspaces even air traffic controllers are being overwhelmed -- they need specialised computers to keep everything in order.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:08 am

Gord wrote: I took the test to be an air traffic controller in my late 20s.
One of the greatest TV series is "Mayday" ( "Air Crash Investigations" in UK/Aust & "Air Emergency" in USA) . It is produced and filmed in Canada. Why bother studying to be an air traffic controller, when you can act as an air traffic controller in the TV series.

(Scene on screen) Gord as air traffic controller looking at radar screen
Narrator : "Charter Flight 294 from Sydney to Toronto, taking skeptics to the first Toronto Skeptics convention"
(Scene on Screen) Forum skeptics in flight cabin, holding puppies, babies, smiling and chatting
Narrator : "it was a normal flight in clear weather, but no one expected that ............"
(Scene on Screen) Gord spills his coffee all over the radar screen
Narrator : ....in ten minutes they would all be dead!!!!!!!!!.
(Scene on Screen) Skeptics screaming, pulling out their hair, praying to god and generally panicking
UFO crash.jpg
:D
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by TJrandom » Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:18 am

Continues…

(Scene on Screen) Gord scans the flight manual, looking for misspellings
Narrator : ....oh wait, we must let him finish this scan for the sake of humanity!!!!!!!!!.
(Scene on Screen) Skeptics looking for rollyeyes ;)

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:00 am

Upton_O_Goode wrote:.....that the equations used to determine the location of an echo actually had extraneous solutions, that is, solutions not corresponding to any possible physical location. I've been a little uneasy flying ever since...
That maybe military passive radar. Rather than send a signal, which bounces off an object and returns a signal, you calculate all the ambient noise bouncing off the ionosphere, and determine if a moving object is blocking out ambient noise in a particular location and trajectory. ( This is why stealth aircraft are now redundant to ground passive radar but can avoid air launched missiles that use active radar) :D

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:13 am

Tom Palven wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:54 pm
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:06 pm
've always wondered just how much "control" is exercised by our control system BEFORE we even take off? I mean "something" must stop every freaking airline to schedule their flights into Kennedy at 8AM? I know there are "gates" and "slots" that airlines bargain over because of landing TIME/scheduling issues.....just don't know if it could be detailed enough to replace the Tower.
I wonder if other airport personnel sitting at computers do all that, and the air traffic controllers do something else that might be accomplished with transponders)?

Maybe someone else can chime in. I'm not interested enough to search for and study the issue.
yes.......they do. I refer to all such folks as "the Tower." Often, not always and not necessarily, the Tower looking out on the airfield is the top floor of what houses the rest of the airport flying operations: ground control, approach control, departure control, enroute and so forth. Pilots are trained how to fly into "uncontrolled airports" meaning there is no Tower operation. What you do is "keep your eyes out of the cockpit" and look for conflicting traffic coming into or taking off at THE SAME AIRPORT. Very uncomfortable situation.....I don't like it. While scanning, you announce your position and intent and ask if anyone else is there. I recall during pilot training there were some local uncontrolled airports that we would use for touch and go practice. Even with only 2-3-4 student pilots with instructors on board planning to use said uncontrolled airport, we would send a pilot there to land and park his aircraft and go into a shed with a radio to act as Tower.

One of my favorite flights was into Addis Ababa the capitol of Ethiopia. A 6AM arrival time and they had a tower.....but they didn't staff it until 10AM.....or....they had one guy to answer the radio and say "No services until 10AM....you are cleared to make a vfr approach..." which was fun because we never got to do that anywhere else. So....I flew in standard wise.....direct to the airport, flew over it looking for traffic AND I announced my arrival, location and intent and asked if anyone else was around. Dead Silence. So I made my turn to downwind with airport clearly in sight to my left, turned base with the airport clearly to my left and 30 miles visibility on a nice clear cloudless morning, and then about 1000 feet above the ground, I turned final to land......................and could not see the airport at all. Sun was just cracking the horizon and the dust particles provided zero horizontal vision. Fun to experience.......with nothing else going on. so.....I picked up the gear and flaps and went around to land with the sun to my back. Wind was only 5 knots, so not a factor. THEN........I went to the airport cafeteria and had the best cappuccino I ever had served by the most beautiful waitress I ever saw. then, I left. Back to Rheinmein to do it all over again, somewhere else. ((My description here is not exactly accurate.......pilots might catch it. Clue: runway ran East/West and I arrived from the North. Wind was 5 knots from the East))
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:32 am

Gates and Slots are fine for the Airlines...........but at the same time........you have any other (Private) pilot or military pilot who can decide to go land at O'Hare at 8AM. When too many planes arrive at the same time, scheduled/gated/slotted or free range, its the Job of ATC (air traffic control where ever they are) to select whoever has enough fuel to stay at altitude and fly in a big circle "waiting" for space to open up to allow them to land. I mention OHare because I flew there once and got right in but one pilot was getting snippy having to fly circles for 30 minutes and was told to keep it up. I wonder what "games" the controllers are playing.....should be first come first serve as much as possible?....or, why disrupt lots of traffic just to fit one stable guy flying in circles "into the pattern."

Anyway...............yes...............what 1-2-3 pilots can do fairly easy.......gets logarithmically harder when its 50 or 60.........and thats with no emergencies......or some private pilot in a Cessna making his first solo cross country.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:12 am

I'm recalling a time when certain airports carried a NOTAM (Notice to Airmen) to arrive with an extra 30 minutes of fuel for possible additional holding time. In essence: don't come here unless you have to......and then....try to arrive outside our heavy use times. I'd think this situation would only be getting worse what with increased air traffic and fewer airports being used .....aka going from direct routes of yore to the hub and spoke system of today. I like spokes........don't like hubs.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:42 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:00 am
Upton_O_Goode wrote:.....that the equations used to determine the location of an echo actually had extraneous solutions, that is, solutions not corresponding to any possible physical location. I've been a little uneasy flying ever since...
That maybe military passive radar. Rather than send a signal, which bounces off an object and returns a signal, you calculate all the ambient noise bouncing off the ionosphere, and determine if a moving object is blocking out ambient noise in a particular location and trajectory. ( This is why stealth aircraft are now redundant to ground passive radar but can avoid air launched missiles that use active radar) :D
Thanks for the information. I assumed they must have solved the problem before putting the thing into commercial use. But I never heard how they solved it.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:49 am

Gord wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:00 am
Tom Palven wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:23 am
Austin Harper wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:26 pm
Air traffic control makes sure that planes in flight are not on intersecting paths in 3D space, and that when they come in for landing and takeoff that enough time has passed since the last plane to not have turbulence problems.
Can pilots handle this with transponders without the help of air traffic control?
I took the test to be an air traffic controller in my late 20s. The short answer is: No. There are situations where pilots have more information and ability to prevent a collision, but there are other situations where an air traffic control system is the only way to prevent collisions.

Letting pilots do it themselves would be like herding cats. An individual can prevent a collision with everything else as long as everything else remains unchanging. But if everything else is also being piloted by an individual who is trying to avoid collisions with every other thing, then suddenly you've got chaos. One pilot's jockeying for position will cause other pilots to compensate, which will cause everyone to need to react to all the changes. In an uncrowded airspace, that might be easy enough, but in modern crowded airspaces even air traffic controllers are being overwhelmed -- they need specialised computers to keep everything in order.
Nice illustration of the Butterfly Effect, Gord!

HL Mencken once gave a similar example (I think it was him, but not quite sure now that I reflect. Anyway...) of a beauty contest in which each judge was instructed to try to guess what the average rating of a contestant by the other judges would be, knowing of course that the others would simultaneously be trying to guess what he would write down, and therefore have to take account of the fact that their guesses would be part of the data for the computation they were trying to make in their heads....and so on. He said that's what speculating in the stock market amounts to. I took that message to heart, and I never invest in the stock market.
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:52 am

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:16 am
And, while we're figuring out how Trump can finger Michael Cohen's father as a criminal while simultaneously denying that he knows anything about any criminal activity, can someone also explain how he can threaten to ruin a NATO ally (Turkey) economically? Isn't it the motto of NATO that an attack against one is an attack against all? So, should the rest of the signatories to NATO now take up arms in defense of Turkey?
Aha! Now we have an answer. Reports this morning are that Trump has seriously discussed pulling the US out of NATO. As he so generously told the Seal team in Iraq, we're not going to be suckers any more. (Nice to know that my uncles who were at Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941 and in France in 1944 were a couple of suckers. I never thought of them as suckers.)
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

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