Brexit

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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:50 pm

Reopening is on the 7th, so only a few days to wait.
In the meantime, I note that cracks are beginning to show. Leo Varadkar (the Irish President) has said ... "The threat of no deal can be taken off the table at any time by the UK Parliament either by ratifying the agreement that the 28 governments have made or by seeking the extension to Article 50 to allow more time for us to negotiate what needs to be negotiated."
What's happened to "the final offer", the "There is nothing more to negotiate ...", the accusations of unreal thinking on the part of the UK government?
To reiterate, Theresa May's deal will NOT pass Parliament as it contains an arrangement over Northern Ireland which can only be terminated if the EU agree to terminate it. In other words, the EU gets a degree of sovereignty over an integral part of the UK. This is the point of contention, and it can be settled ONLY if the UK gets a way of unilaterally ending said arrangement. The Republic of Ireland would not like that as it puts them in a risky position.
Remember the DUP? - the Northern Irish party who have temporarily suspended support for Mrs May (which is the reason she would get her deal passed by Parliament only if a major miracle took place). They would tear Parliament down by hand rather than agree to hock themselves for an effectively indefinite period.
Lots of excitement and bare-knuckle fighting to look forward to, then. However, Brexit doesn't actually appear on the agenda until the 9th, when "Proceedings on a Business Motion relating to Section 13(1)b) of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018" is scheduled for debate. I sincerely doubt no mention will be made of it all until then.

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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:59 pm

Poodle wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:50 pm
What's happened to "the final offer", the "There is nothing more to negotiate ...", the accusations of unreal thinking on the part of the UK government?
I know precisous little about Brexit or Theresa May, or UK political entanglements and challenges, but that statement was odiously pure politics as it was uttered. I was actually kinda double reverse surprised that any "skilled" politician would be so transparently posing. But....I look around here at the USA Clown Show as with the outrageous ass kissing with Trumps most recent cabinet meeting and I recognize.........Theresa May: rank politician, but not the worst one out there.

Ha, ha.........again KNOWING NOTHING.......I predicted on first presentation that a vote to stay in would be the solution. I think it still is, whether taken or not.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:57 pm

But the vote was, in all but name, the referendum (which got a leave result). It's not a good idea to say to the electorate that they should make a choice and then renege on the stated purpose of the referendum because the result is not what you wanted, if only because you were told in no uncertain terms what THEY wanted. Having called the referendum, you execute the result - right or wrong. If you're not prepared to do that, don't call a referendum. So the decision to leave has been constitutionally decided. It's HOW we leave which is the bugbear.
Brexit is unavoidable. There is no longer the possibility of a vote to stay in.

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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:36 am

Poodle, didn't we do this a while back? Its wholly illogical to say you can have one referendum to do X, determine that you don't like X, but you are stuck on X and "should not" be allowed to have another referendum. Its like ordering bacon and eggs for breakfast on Monday and a year later you are not allowed to have cereal.

Its called: FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDOM. Doing WHAT you want , WHEN you want. Don't rule me no rules.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Fri Jan 04, 2019 3:29 am

Oh come on, bobbo. You're inventing comedy scenarios (yeah, scenarii if you're a purist). When do you stop calling referenda? Oh - it's when you get the result you wanted in the first place, isn't it? Have you any idea how much one of those things costs? It's nothing like a menu - it's telling everyone who voted that their votes don't count any longer. I can imagine a scenario in which this may be a good thing, and I advise you to try it. So - declare your last presidential election null and void and have another go.
Yep - freedom. Sod the constitution.

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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:01 am

Well Poodle: Just Look. Your argument against another Ref is EXACTLY THE SAME as YOU SAY my argument for one is. Everybody wants to protect/keep whatever position they have. so....that response just drops out as it is a term on both sides of the equation. You know: MATH.

So.....how to decide? I say: have as many as the people want whenever they want. I am siding with FREEEEEEEEEEDOM.....not some goal reached and the desire to prevent the other sides goal. I am being very fair and neutral: not partisan.

Now, I assume there is some process by which the Brexit Question gets put to a referundum? Just follow it. In California: the Worlds 5th Largest Economy, we are known for having a SHAMBLES of a governing system because we rely so heavily on the Ref. Our elected leaders take little to no responsibility for the pay they receive: Don't or Do like or want something: Go start a Ref. As with everything: there are Pros and Cons. I'm not sure, but to start a Ref in Ca I think you need some minimal number of signatures on a petition to get a Ref on the next Ballot. Anyone with the time, money, and interest can go out and try.

As I TOTALLY don't know what your system "is": why not follow it?
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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:24 am

We ARE following it. The only people who want a referendum are the ones who don't like the system because it has already produced (by way of a referendum) a result they didn't want.

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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:10 pm

Oh.......well, given you are following it, whats the problem?

bhahahahaha: I don't know your rules. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendu ... ed_Kingdom doesn't make it clear to me either. Sounds like: if enough people bug the Parliament, then you can have REF whenever you want to.

You are buggering what a desire for, and the legality/appropriateness of, another REF would be. I DON'T CARE ABOUT THE OUTCOME. Just that people are Free.........and Free to change their minds. I don't think you Know what I'm saying.............or.....simply post as if. Amounts to the same thing though: Know what I mean?

The passage of time makes every REF "on the same issue" a new and different REF. Imagine: the Fourth Dimension makes a difference.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:12 pm

So, we wait for the 7th. How appropriate. That's just the second day of Epiphany season. Any chance some politicians will actually HAVE an epiphany?

I hope so, for the sake of some of my British friends living abroad. I just got a long newsy letter from one of them, who is now living in France. He writes, in part:
At present life is somewhat uncertain. Having bought a house in France and having so much regard for this region, our Great Plan was to find a way to live here permanently. We never anticipated the wild card of Britain pulling out of the EU. This will make a tremendous difference to us because it will severely curtail the amount we are allowed to spend in France each year, and will to all intents and purposes make it impossible to work here. Hopefully a degree of sanity will prevail and an agreement reached soon, otherwise our position at the end of March will indeed be precarious. If an agreement is indeed reached we would have almost a two year period of grace in which to continue to try to find some sort of solution..
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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:13 pm

Yes - my sister lives in France on a permanent basis but isn't entirely sure what's going to happen. Statements from all parties suggest that EU citizens in the UK and UK citizens in the EU will be able to carry on as they are. However, that could change if anyone feels particularly spiteful.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:21 pm

Bobbo - I think you have a golden idea. Wouldn't it be wonderful if every political issue was decided by referendum? We could change our minds every week about anything. Of course, we'd have to build up a fund to pay for all this - I suspect that it may be bigger than the GDP of the UK, though.
But you're right - I'm not completely clear on what you're trying to say. You'll have to forgive me if I appear snappy - I've been chopping chillis, forgot to wash my hands, and then rubbed the end of my nose.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:36 pm

The DUP (the Northern Irish party with 10 MPs who (usually) provide Mrs May with her tiny majority) have reiterated that they will NOT support her proposal. It is becoming clearer how she managed to survive the vote of no confidence - no one else wants to take the flak. So she's stuck, asking for a vote for a plan which she knows she cannot win. This probably explains why she has instructed our mandarins to accelerate their preparations for a no-deal. And she's probably feeling a little more confident given the positive noises coming from our Antipodean friends about setting up quick trade deals. Oh - and a handful of SE Asian friends, too. Oh - and India. China's in there, too, but they would be. At least we won't starve.
STOP PRESS ... A survey of Conservative MPs shows that the majority of such people will vote for no-deal rather than the May plan. That has rattled coastal North Sea states as it would mean complete reclamation of UK fishing grounds. For those who don't know, the UK fishing fleet was decimated by our EU membership and our fisherfolk would LOVE to rebuild. So would our east coast fishing ports, whose local economies have never recovered.

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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:03 pm

I'm grousing that you thinking that people that want to vote on an issue after some short time are doing some kind of injustice to something or violating any tenet of good gubment, regular order, the law, or "democracy." In short: you are accusing ME of doing what YOU are doing WHILE I'm not doing it.

"....da...do, do, dooo..."

It just occurred to me that Brexit is very much an example of the pros and cons of zero sum game economic theory vs growing the pie. But once two people get off an island that had 4 canoes and 8 coconuts, I can't follow the mechanics of most applied economic theories.........and yet, most recognized ((for true, not being sarcastic)) actual experts strike me as nincompoops. The Macro ones, not the Micro ones.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:43 pm

Poodle wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:36 pm
The DUP (the Northern Irish party with 10 MPs who (usually) provide Mrs May with her tiny majority) have reiterated that they will NOT support her proposal. It is becoming clearer how she managed to survive the vote of no confidence - no one else wants to take the flak. So she's stuck, asking for a vote for a plan which she knows she cannot win. This probably explains why she has instructed our mandarins to accelerate their preparations for a no-deal. And she's probably feeling a little more confident given the positive noises coming from our Antipodean friends about setting up quick trade deals. Oh - and a handful of SE Asian friends, too. Oh - and India. China's in there, too, but they would be. At least we won't starve.
STOP PRESS ... A survey of Conservative MPs shows that the majority of such people will vote for no-deal rather than the May plan. That has rattled coastal North Sea states as it would mean complete reclamation of UK fishing grounds. For those who don't know, the UK fishing fleet was decimated by our EU membership and our fisherfolk would LOVE to rebuild. So would our east coast fishing ports, whose local economies have never recovered.
So, MAY we say that the DUP are disMAYed by the proposal? MAYbe?
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

Vyacheslav Mikhailovich Skryabin (“Molotov”)

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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:51 pm

Very goode.
A triple groaner.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:54 am

OK - it's reset time.
There is a smidgen over 80 days left before we leave the EU (assuming nothing earth-shattering happens). As things stand, the UK is exiting with no particular deal in place, which means that, by default, WTO rules will apply after that date. This is in no way a bad thing - lots of countries run their trade on WTO rules. It ain't Armageddon.
The EU have agreed to the offer of a deal (made by the UK Prime Minister in a markedly undemocratic fashion) which puts a fence around Northern Ireland. That is simply not acceptable to anyone who doesn't want to see the break-up of the UK and makes the WTO Brexit more likely. A fair old number of countries around the world have declared themselves ready to trade with an EU-free UK at a moment's notice, which serves to take the sense of doom away from Brexit. The EU Commission, on the other hand, have entrenched their somewhat punitive position outlined in the Theresa May deal, which has been dead in the water since its introduction.
There is nothing on the table which is acceptable to both the EU Commission and the UK Parliament. and the clock is ticking. It is fairly obvious to the EU Commission that the UK is bluffing and it is equally obvious to the UK that the EU Commission isn't playing with a full deck of cards. Stalemate.
It is likely that if the Northern Ireland fantasy was removed from the EU Commission's thinking, a deal could be struck which could leave the UK as a sort of associate EU member. It is unlikely that the EU Commission, given its declared federal ambitions, would want that to happen.
So the scene is set and the most likely outcome is what doom merchants describe as 'crashing out' but more optimistic minds describe as 'new opportunities'.
OK - it's a new day. Anything could happen.

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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:50 am

Poodle wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:54 am
It is fairly obvious to the EU Commission that the UK is bluffing and it is equally obvious to the UK that the EU Commission isn't playing with a full deck of cards. Stalemate.
It is likely that if the Northern Ireland fantasy was removed from the EU Commission's thinking, a deal could be struck which could leave the UK as a sort of associate EU member. It is unlikely that the EU Commission, given its declared federal ambitions, would want that to happen.
So the scene is set and the most likely outcome is what doom merchants describe as 'crashing out' but more optimistic minds describe as 'new opportunities'.
OK - it's a new day. Anything could happen.
It is all very fascinating. all the historical and cultural and personality conflicts going on.

1. What was apparent to me was that the UK simply can't get its act together. Not a bluff.

2. What card is the EU Commission lacking?

3. The 1&2 combo: Its a nice allusion, but does it stand up at all? I'll be informed if it does.

4. EU declared ambitions are legitimate as any federation's is. Federations DON'T WORK when members want to gain the benefits of Federation but then act independently and avoid the costs/liabilities.

5. Why would a fence around Northern Ireland "break up" the UK? Inconvenient for the folks on either side of that border.......but that is a minor border issue not going to the viability of the UK...or of Ireland??? Ha, ha.......I was married to a Brit. Educated and Intelligent liberal oriented girl. She was a bit biased about anything "Irish" though. I made fun of that feigning I couldn't tell the difference between Scotland Issues and Ireland Issues. Got quite upset several times. "Isn't it nice not to be saddled with History" I would query her or use that example of why the Middle East was mired inperpetual conflict. If the Great Civilizations like England and Scotland ((see the humor?)) can't work out their issues, how will Israel and the Arabs? One dead issue after another demanding to control the present......whoops.....I'm wandering. Sorry./////....so, USA has a border with Canada. No big deal. Only a deal if someone wants to manufacture an issue. ((Yes....like Trump. Any "issue" can be left as a molehill or be built up as desired.))
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Re: Brexit

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:28 pm

Poodle wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:54 am
The EU have agreed to the offer of a deal (made by the UK Prime Minister in a markedly undemocratic fashion) which puts a fence around Northern Ireland. That is simply not acceptable to anyone who doesn't want to see the break-up of the UK and makes the WTO Brexit more likely.
Build the WALL!! Shut down the government if you have to. Declare a state of emergency. Get Mexico to pay for it....
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Re: Brexit

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:31 pm

Poodle wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:54 am
It is likely that if the Northern Ireland fantasy was removed from the EU Commission's thinking, a deal could be struck which could leave the UK as a sort of associate EU member. It is unlikely that the EU Commission, given its declared federal ambitions, would want that to happen.
So the scene is set and the most likely outcome is what doom merchants describe as 'crashing out' but more optimistic minds describe as 'new opportunities'.
So, the EU will now be offering a la carte service as well as the complect? Wish we could do that here with the government shutdown, but Trump says he won't allow the House and Senate to fund specific items. Meanwhile, as of Friday, the federal courts will be out of money, so there's going to be a lot more people (in the criminal courts) forced to work without pay, and probably phoning in sick.

But I don't want to derail this thread. (Too late!)
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

Vyacheslav Mikhailovich Skryabin (“Molotov”)

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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:38 pm

Answers to bobbo's comments ...
1. What was apparent to me was that the UK simply can't get its act together. Not a bluff.
In what way, bobbo? The UK furnished its declaration of intent as dictated by the referendum results. All else is jockeying for position. At the moment of declaration, only two outcomes were possible (discounting the complete refutal of the referendum result) - the UK left the EU on WTO rues or the UK left with a trade deal with the EU. That's still the situation.

2. What card is the EU Commission lacking?
Obviously a UK idiom - sorry. Playing without a full deck means not making much sense. The EU Commission has been in the habit of issuing statements based upon the premise that it is unthinkable that the UK will leave the EU with no deal in place. It is only now dawning upon them that no-deal is the most likely outcome

3. The 1&2 combo: Its a nice allusion, but does it stand up at all? I'll be informed if it does.
I'm not sure what that means.

4. EU declared ambitions are legitimate as any federation's is. Federations DON'T WORK when members want to gain the benefits of Federation but then act independently and avoid the costs/liabilities.
Of course they are, and the UK has acted accordingly during its EU membership. The point is that the EU at present is a confederation of independent states but is moving towards full federation. For the UK, that's a step too far.

5. Why would a fence around Northern Ireland "break up" the UK?
Ooohh, bobbo. You really need to read up on your Irish history. Suffice it at the moment to say that the opening of that border was the main motivator in the cessation of hostilities between the Provisional IRA and the majority Protestant population of Northern Ireland. The DUP represents that Protestant population and have demanded that the border remains open for obvious reasons. Only a complete {!#%@} would try to close it. Northern Ireland is a part of the UK, you know?

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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:09 pm

Thanks Poodle. I'd love to discuss each point individually, per ordinem, or as a group hug.........but I do assume it would be a bore/burden for you? I will therefore only thumbnail my response and I DO INVITE you not to respond ............maybe for "the others?"==> Ha, ha.

1. I thought the "act" was to get a trade deal with the EU that would be better than WTO terms ((you know trying to get some benefits without the associated costs which includes "control" or interference from the EU))....but such a deal can't get approved, so its WTO all the way. Seems like the UK can't get its act together even to offer a deal that the EU rejects? No posturing at all....except Mays ludicrous statements that her deal was not subject to criticism/improvement and was the "best deal for the UK".......or whatever she did say.

2. lacking a card generally means not making sense but in this context I thought it might mean the EU did not have certain SPECIFIC "offerings" or attractions that would have kept UK in the EU as full or associate member?

3. This calls for information that would make sense of why the UK "should" leave or the EU not be punitive if they do? Of course lots of countries trade un WTO, but thats not the issue........which is.........that being a MEMBER OF THE EU even with its downsides is a net plus. Being part of something bigger usually is "better".......with lots of exceptions. You have to really know the state of the land/motion of the ocean/ to know when the general rule doesn't apply for your own exceptional case.....................and usually, only time will tell? //////////I take it though that its the EU that actually is proposing a border fence/wall rather than just friendly check points? That is part of the "punishment " for leaving? Well...when the South Brexited the USA Union.....there was a much more punitive response. UK is lucky everything is so civilized and contractual........but secessionists do need to be made examples of or any Federation will fall apart. both Parties could be right in their assessments and actions?????

4. Federations are always moving: to and fro. Pros and Cons to everything. Federations that allow/encourage members to leave........break up in short order. Federations that manage closer entwined relationships: become world powers. Easy choice: just hard to figure out how.

5. I thought (still do, but I still think Ireland is North of England ((JOKE!!!!!....but obviously I don't know the issues like any UK'er does)) the main disagreements during the troubles was not the border per se but rather what happened on either side of the border? aka: even with a wall, if that is the questionable EU action.....there are still too many variables that could go either way to help or hurt any Ireland/UK relationship. Nothing per se that would "break up" the UK? I mean....Ireland is not part of UK. Why not a border fence???? Just don't treat Catholics in Northern Ireland as born criminals.................
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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:19 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:31 pm
Poodle wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:54 am
It is likely that if the Northern Ireland fantasy was removed from the EU Commission's thinking, a deal could be struck which could leave the UK as a sort of associate EU member. It is unlikely that the EU Commission, given its declared federal ambitions, would want that to happen.
So the scene is set and the most likely outcome is what doom merchants describe as 'crashing out' but more optimistic minds describe as 'new opportunities'.
So, the EU will now be offering a la carte service as well as the complect? Wish we could do that here with the government shutdown, but Trump says he won't allow the House and Senate to fund specific items. Meanwhile, as of Friday, the federal courts will be out of money, so there's going to be a lot more people (in the criminal courts) forced to work without pay, and probably phoning in sick.

But I don't want to derail this thread. (Too late!)
Well, there is already a sort of halfway house, as Dan would be pleased to tell you. Members of the European Free Trade Association (EFTA) and the European Economic Area (EEA) have deals with the EU. Although Dan would be pleased to tell you about it, he may also add that a halfway house has its disadvantages as well as its advantages. The UK was a founder member of EFTA but, I'm afraid to say, left it in the lurch upon joining the EU.

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Re: Brexit

Post by OutOfBreath » Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:37 pm

Poodle wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:19 pm
Well, there is already a sort of halfway house, as Dan would be pleased to tell you. Members of the European Free Trade Association (EFTA) and the European Economic Area (EEA) have deals with the EU. Although Dan would be pleased to tell you about it, he may also add that a halfway house has its disadvantages as well as its advantages. The UK was a founder member of EFTA but, I'm afraid to say, left it in the lurch upon joining the EU.
The "halfway" solution we have means accepting almost all eu regulations (a theoretical veto never used), while having open borders to the eu but not having any vote in the process. So, why are you brexiting again?

I have no problem with our solution, but to go to that from a full membership will overall lose you sovereignty although it can save your economy I suppose. As for EFTA it is not given that the UK can just waltz back in there. Thats a small countries' interest club now not necessarily aligned to uk wishes.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Sat Jan 05, 2019 5:08 pm

I wasn't suggesting that the UK should rejoin, Dan. I can't see any point in that, especially in view of your first paragraph above.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:56 am

Today's the day Parliament reopens! Looking at the schedule, I see .... Not a mention of Brexit! Ah well, maybe tomorrow .... nope - nothing there. Ahah! Brexit has to wait until Wednesday.
Sometimes, I despair.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:06 am

Poodle wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:56 am
Today's the day Parliament reopens! Looking at the schedule, I see .... Not a mention of Brexit! Ah well, maybe tomorrow .... nope - nothing there. Ahah! Brexit has to wait until Wednesday.
Sometimes, I despair.
Hmm, first things first, as they say. What's more important than these negotiations, at this point?
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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:44 pm

House standards and a discussion on televised debates.
You know - really important stuff.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:05 pm

Poodle wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:44 pm
House standards and a discussion on televised debates.
You know - really important stuff.
I was surprised. I listened to the BBC for the better part of an hour this morning, and nearly all of the hour was devoted to the Kuwaiti woman who sought (and apparently now has) sanctuary in Thailand. Only in the last ten minutes was the Brexit issue discussed, and I learned that a vote is promised for a week from tomorrow (and the commentator pointed out that such a vote had been promised before, but didn't happen).
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

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Re: Brexit

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:37 am

Upton_O_Goode wrote: I listened to the BBC for the better part of an hour this morning, and nearly all of the hour was devoted to the Kuwaiti woman who sought (and apparently now has) sanctuary in Thailand.
This story is just ridiculous. The girl is 18 and from Saudi Arabia. She was seeking asylum in Australia. She is the daughter of a Saudi official, but I can't find out exactly whom. She renounced Islam which allows for the death penalty in Saudi Arabia. .......... but she never contacted Australia.

It is either a teenage "hissy fit" or something else is going on.
:D

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Re: Brexit

Post by Gord » Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:18 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:37 am
Upton_O_Goode wrote: I listened to the BBC for the better part of an hour this morning, and nearly all of the hour was devoted to the Kuwaiti woman who sought (and apparently now has) sanctuary in Thailand.
This story is just ridiculous. The girl is 18 and from Saudi Arabia. She was seeking asylum in Australia. She is the daughter of a Saudi official, but I can't find out exactly whom. She renounced Islam which allows for the death penalty in Saudi Arabia. .......... but she never contacted Australia.

It is either a teenage "hissy fit" or something else is going on.
:D
Uh-oh. Thailand is 94.50% Buddhism and 4.29% Islam. She'd be safer in Australia, which is 52.2% Christianity, 30.1% Non-religious, and only 2.6% Islam.

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Re: Brexit

Post by TJrandom » Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:17 am

I thought that she had a visa for Australia...

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Re: Brexit

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:15 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:37 am
Upton_O_Goode wrote: I listened to the BBC for the better part of an hour this morning, and nearly all of the hour was devoted to the Kuwaiti woman who sought (and apparently now has) sanctuary in Thailand.
This story is just ridiculous. The girl is 18 and from Saudi Arabia. She was seeking asylum in Australia. She is the daughter of a Saudi official, but I can't find out exactly whom. She renounced Islam which allows for the death penalty in Saudi Arabia. .......... but she never contacted Australia.

It is either a teenage "hissy fit" or something else is going on.
:D
That was very confusing, as they kept saying the Thai government usually has nothing to do with the UNHCR (a charity my wife and I support, by the way). And then they did say she had found asylum in Australia, but that her father had arrived also. But wasn't it her father she was trying to escape?
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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:20 am

Setting the scene for today ...
The House of Commons yesterday voted against a no-deal scenario. The same august body doesn't want the 'final' offer which is on the table and the EU keep repeating that the 'final' offer really is the final offer.
I hope you've all read Catch 22, because here it is in reality. However, the default position is that the UK exits very soon and, in the absence of any agreement, that will be a no-deal exit. Aren't politicians wonderful?
Parliament opens in about 5 hours. Let battle begin!

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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:53 am

Catch-22.....imo: Greatest book ever written. It address the human reality and conditions of war more relatably than other Great Books ....again, imo. There are of course other Greastest Books valid for other people. Catch-22 is just mine.

That said, I don't see the Catch 22. by voting against the final offer on the table they are just evidencing being shell shocked and unable to act: actually another message from Catch 22. They actually have positioned themselves in the "Default Position" of every craven politician: vote against everything then you can claim you voted against whatever is upsetting people? Not Catch 22, but rather hypocrisy and positioning.
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Re: Brexit

Post by ElectricMonk » Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:09 am

The vote just shows how fragmented the Leave-camp is: it ranges all the way from "exit at all costs" to "we just want a bit more autonomy" to "we don't like Theresa May".

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Re: Brexit

Post by TJrandom » Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:24 am

Sooo if they don’t like the May deal, and won’t BREXIt without a deal, and if no better than the May deal is in the offing, then ... no-BREXIT?

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Re: Brexit

Post by ElectricMonk » Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:36 am

TJrandom wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:24 am
Sooo if they don’t like the May deal, and won’t BREXIt without a deal, and if no better than the May deal is in the offing, then ... no-BREXIT?
if you want to see clearly - yes.
A UK party running on no-Brexit would doubtlessly win the election today. And there is nothing wrong with 'subverting' an older democratic vote with a newer one - Democracies do that every time there is an election.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Poodle » Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:32 am

Well, I doubt that - but given the way everything is blowing in all directions at once, who knows? However, both major parties are Brexiteers. The Green Party are Remainers, but as they've never had more than 0.3% of the popular vote and have now split themselves into three separate parties, I can't see them having any effect. It is, indeed, strange that the Labour Party have not aligned themselves with the remain faction, but everything about the Labour Party has been strange since Jeremy Corbyn became leader. The Liberal Democrats are marked Remainers, but they have only 12 Members of Parliament.
I agree with your comment on reversal of policy by a political party, but we're talking about a referendum result here, and that should be reversible only by a second referendum (which both major parties are avoiding like the plague).

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Re: Brexit

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:35 am

.3% dividing into three parties. Ha, ha.......sounds like a small group of disgruntles?? Or one guy traveling around in a caravan with a satellite dish?

I thought referendums where in fact "legally" only recommendations to Parliament? If that is true, then the only downside would be the popular will of the voters........which is always the case? I think I read in passing that there might be two types of REF? Mandatory vs advisory as the Parliament initially legislates.............but in a democracy........no prior Admin/Society should be able to block future changes of mind.

Looks to me like: its just normal politics with extraneous claims of binding votes just being dog whistles?
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Re: Brexit

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:14 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:53 am
Catch-22.....imo: Greatest book ever written. It address the human reality and conditions of war more relatably than other Great Books ....again, imo. There are of course other Greastest Books valid for other people. Catch-22 is just mine.
Well, there are different categories. There has never been a funnier book than Catch-22, although a few have equaled it, such as Changing Places by David Lodge. As for Greatest Book Ever Written, I could list half a dozen candidates, but that's another thread.
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

Vyacheslav Mikhailovich Skryabin (“Molotov”)