Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by SteveKlinko » Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:07 pm

Cadmusteeth wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:58 pm
The fact that Steve made this thread -Addressing the Physicalist Delirium- is a blatant attempt to smear critics of his claims. This basically says, "if people disagree, there's something wrong with them."
That is hardly a valid argument. In fact, all of his arguments seem to be geared towards selling merchandise and taking advantage of people who don't know any better. With everything that's been going on, I don't see this as unreasonable to assume.
The Physicalists really are getting pretty Delirious over these three statements. They can certainly just disagree without cause, but it would be nice if they had some coherent arguments against the statements.

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Re: The Ellard Delirium Constinues

Post by SteveKlinko » Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:12 pm

landrew wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:39 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:42 pm
If Pain does not have any affect on Evolutionary Outcomes then why would Pain ever Evolve? You have offered no Explanations of how Pain does not affect Evolutionary Outcomes.
It simply doesn't. You are asking someone to disprove your assertion, when the burden of proof was on you in the first place. It's your assertion.

If you had been reading, you'd have seen your absurd assertion that "pain directs evolution" refuted nine ways from Sunday.
There has been no coherent argument that shows how Pain has no affect on Evolutionary outcomes. Just ask yourself: What is the purpose of Pain? The answer to that is a clue as to why Pain does in fact affect Evolutionary outcomes.

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Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:04 am

SteveKlinko wrote:The Physicalists really are getting pretty Delirious over these three statements.
No. We are pissing ourselves laughing at you!!!
SteveKlinko made stupid claim No1 and wrote: If Pain does not have any affect on Evolutionary Outcomes then why would Pain ever Evolve?
The skeptics laughed and wrote:"toe nails must direct and guide evolution otherwise why did we evolve toe nails" "Brown hair must direct and guide evolution otherwise why did we evolve brown hair?"
///////////////////////////////////////
SteveKlinko made stupid claim No2 and wrote: If it was Painful to grow toenails and hair we would not have any today..
The skeptics laughed again and wrote:I see.......... so women stopped having babies because of the pain? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
///////////////////////////////////////////
SteveKlinko made stupid claim No3 and wrote: There has been no coherent argument that shows how Pain has no affect on Evolutionary outcomes.
The skeptics laughed again and wrote: You have now failed 10 times to show how pain, that has already evolved, can "direct" and "guide" evolution as you claimed. When will you show us how your magic form of evolution works?


Give up Steve Klinko. You are simply showing all of us that you don't know anything about evolution and that you are also mad as a hatter. :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by Poodle » Sat Dec 22, 2018 1:44 am

SteveKlinko wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:02 pm
I gave a Logical chain of reasoning that you have not understood or have just ignored.
And here's a problem, Steve. I have had cause to go through, once again, all of the posts you have made on this subject (actually, ALL of your posts) and I cannot find any logical chain of reasoning on your part. Your argument has always been that others do not understand your assertions but, try as I might, I cannot find any assertion from you which is defensible on logical or scientific grounds. Please point me to ANY argument you have come up with which depends upon evidence. I have not ignored you (see my posting history) and I cannot find any evidence that others (who have taken part in this discussion) have ignored you. You cannot carry on justifying your assertions when you have no evidence. You are demanding faith from people who demand evidence. You have an argument which is interesting but which is devoid of anything which could be even tentatively be described as evidence, yet you pretend to high dudgeon when you are questioned. It doesn't wash.
Show us what you have - something you have signally failed to do to date.

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Re: The Ellard Delirium Constinues

Post by landrew » Sat Dec 22, 2018 1:46 am

SteveKlinko wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:12 pm
There has been no coherent argument that shows how Pain has no affect on Evolutionary outcomes. Just ask yourself: What is the purpose of Pain? The answer to that is a clue as to why Pain does in fact affect Evolutionary outcomes.
The burden of proof was on you to prove that pain effects evolution. Once again, you are asking someone else to prove a negative. Here's an example of such specious logic: "I am a millionaire, because you haven't furnished no coherent argument that I'm not." Totally stupid, Give it up.
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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by Dimebag » Sun Dec 23, 2018 6:22 am

Looking for scientific articles regarding pain response and evolution, I find an article with the following statement:
The organism’s nervous system must respond to pain in ways that tend to increase the organism’s survival and reproductive chances. A simple adaptive response to physical pain, often found in animals, is to stop moving so that whatever the damage to the body that causes pain it can more easily heal spontaneously.
Taken from here: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/924d/1 ... 268d2e.pdf

So taken from this statement, it is the behaviour of the organism in response to the pain which increases survival and reproductive chances. Taken at face value this seems as if what Steve has been saying, that the pain itself increases survival and reproductive success. However I’m not sure that can be so easily parsed. As we stated earlier, pain contains within it a built in response, and to remove the pain sensation will also remove the response, which is what affects survival rates. So it seems that you might not be able to separate the sensation of pain and the response to it.

But, learned responses to pain causing circumstances and can improve an organisms chances of survival and reproduction, and is therefore a case where behaviour is separated from pain sensation.

Two different cases, in one case pain is required for the response, in the other, where the prediction of possible pain is the only requirement for the response.

In both cases what is in common is the response, or behaviour, so maybe this is what affects the organisms chances of reproductive success and survival.

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Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:05 am

Dimebag wrote:Taken at face value this seems as if what Steve has been saying, that the pain itself increases survival and reproductive success.
The pain response has already evolved to feel pain. Steve Klinko is claiming pain makes a creature evolve in a particular way which is complete crap. That's why he can't set out any mechanism for his claim.

New mutant genes may enter a species's gene pool, where feeling less pain may increase the survival rate of the species's offspring. For another species mutant genes may enter the species gene pool where feeling more pain may increase the survival rate of the species's offspring. It depends on the environment and not the current genes being displayed.


I wish you and Steve would read a science book on how evolution works, rather than going around in circles. :D

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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by landrew » Sun Dec 23, 2018 4:20 pm

You won't find a credible source that says creatures evolved in response to pain. Behavior is in response to pain (and pleasure), but only in the higher-evolved brains that learn in response to such stimuli. Don't put the cart before the horse. Pain did not "cause" evolution. Nothing causes evolution. Pain evolved as a result of evolution. Evolution is a very simple filtering process, not so difficult to understand.
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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:20 pm

landrew wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 4:20 pm
Pain did not "cause" evolution. Nothing causes evolution. Pain evolved as a result of evolution. Evolution is a very simple filtering process, not so difficult to understand.
I've been stumbling just a little bit on this notion that I have stated a few time myself. Here is a parallel: I think we would agree that average global temperature "causes" evolution? When the environment changes....then life has a stimulus to adapt to. That is "causing" evolution in my "ordinary language/thinking" orientation as opposed to some tautological more restrictive scientific defintion that might apply to give the result that "Nothing causes evolution."

To the degree that is true, then I have to think "pain" causes evolution too....it is "a part of the environment" the organism experiences and will therefore have better and worse adaptive responses.

Not to be confused with what I think, although I'm hazy on this, that Klinko poses that pain is willed into existence in order to cause evolution?.....or whatever garblefarb he utters.
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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by SteveKlinko » Fri Dec 28, 2018 1:58 pm

Poodle wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 1:44 am
SteveKlinko wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:02 pm
I gave a Logical chain of reasoning that you have not understood or have just ignored.
And here's a problem, Steve. I have had cause to go through, once again, all of the posts you have made on this subject (actually, ALL of your posts) and I cannot find any logical chain of reasoning on your part. Your argument has always been that others do not understand your assertions but, try as I might, I cannot find any assertion from you which is defensible on logical or scientific grounds. Please point me to ANY argument you have come up with which depends upon evidence. I have not ignored you (see my posting history) and I cannot find any evidence that others (who have taken part in this discussion) have ignored you. You cannot carry on justifying your assertions when you have no evidence. You are demanding faith from people who demand evidence. You have an argument which is interesting but which is devoid of anything which could be even tentatively be described as evidence, yet you pretend to high dudgeon when you are questioned. It doesn't wash.
Show us what you have - something you have signally failed to do to date.
It's such a simple chain of logic:

1) The experience of Pain increases survival rates.
2) Increased survival rates will affect Evolutionary outcomes.
3) Therefore a Conscious Experience can affect or guide Evolutionary outcomes.

That's all there is to it. You either just don't like this logic or you don't understand it.

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Re: The Ellard Delirium Constinues

Post by SteveKlinko » Fri Dec 28, 2018 2:00 pm

landrew wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 1:46 am
SteveKlinko wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:12 pm
There has been no coherent argument that shows how Pain has no affect on Evolutionary outcomes. Just ask yourself: What is the purpose of Pain? The answer to that is a clue as to why Pain does in fact affect Evolutionary outcomes.
The burden of proof was on you to prove that pain effects evolution. Once again, you are asking someone else to prove a negative. Here's an example of such specious logic: "I am a millionaire, because you haven't furnished no coherent argument that I'm not." Totally stupid, Give it up.
Repeating my reply to Poodle.

It's such a simple chain of logic:

1) The experience of Pain increases survival rates.
2) Increased survival rates will affect Evolutionary outcomes.
3) Therefore a Conscious Experience can affect or guide Evolutionary outcomes.

That's all there is to it. You either just don't like this logic or you don't understand it.

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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by SteveKlinko » Fri Dec 28, 2018 2:02 pm

Dimebag wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 6:22 am
Looking for scientific articles regarding pain response and evolution, I find an article with the following statement:
The organism’s nervous system must respond to pain in ways that tend to increase the organism’s survival and reproductive chances. A simple adaptive response to physical pain, often found in animals, is to stop moving so that whatever the damage to the body that causes pain it can more easily heal spontaneously.
Taken from here: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/924d/1 ... 268d2e.pdf

So taken from this statement, it is the behaviour of the organism in response to the pain which increases survival and reproductive chances. Taken at face value this seems as if what Steve has been saying, that the pain itself increases survival and reproductive success. However I’m not sure that can be so easily parsed. As we stated earlier, pain contains within it a built in response, and to remove the pain sensation will also remove the response, which is what affects survival rates. So it seems that you might not be able to separate the sensation of pain and the response to it.

But, learned responses to pain causing circumstances and can improve an organisms chances of survival and reproduction, and is therefore a case where behaviour is separated from pain sensation.

Two different cases, in one case pain is required for the response, in the other, where the prediction of possible pain is the only requirement for the response.

In both cases what is in common is the response, or behaviour, so maybe this is what affects the organisms chances of reproductive success and survival.
Very Good!

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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by SteveKlinko » Fri Dec 28, 2018 2:07 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:20 pm
landrew wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 4:20 pm
Pain did not "cause" evolution. Nothing causes evolution. Pain evolved as a result of evolution. Evolution is a very simple filtering process, not so difficult to understand.
I've been stumbling just a little bit on this notion that I have stated a few time myself. Here is a parallel: I think we would agree that average global temperature "causes" evolution? When the environment changes....then life has a stimulus to adapt to. That is "causing" evolution in my "ordinary language/thinking" orientation as opposed to some tautological more restrictive scientific defintion that might apply to give the result that "Nothing causes evolution."

To the degree that is true, then I have to think "pain" causes evolution too....it is "a part of the environment" the organism experiences and will therefore have better and worse adaptive responses.

Not to be confused with what I think, although I'm hazy on this, that Klinko poses that pain is willed into existence in order to cause evolution?.....or whatever garblefarb he utters.
Never said Pain is willed into existence. I said Pain probably appeared because of the normal random mutation of genes. These mutations are either beneficial or not.

It's such a simple chain of logic:

1) The experience of Pain increases survival rates.
2) Increased survival rates will affect Evolutionary outcomes.
3) Therefore a Conscious Experience can affect or guide Evolutionary outcomes.

That's all there is to it. You either just don't like this logic or you don't understand it.

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Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:04 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:1) The experience of Pain increases survival rates.
Complete fail As the pain genes have already evolved the survival rate is neutral. A species evolves to match the environment and not the genes it has already evolved. You don't understand this as you refuse to read any books on evolution and you are really stupid. :lol: :lol:
SteveKlinko wrote:2) Increased survival rates will affect Evolutionary outcomes.
Complete Fail The increased survival rate may be from reducing pain thresholds, Increased survival rates will increase the gene frequency of an mutation entering the gene pool and not already evolved genes. You don't understand this as you refuse to read any books on evolution and you are really stupid. :lol: :lol:
SteveKlinko wrote:3) Therefore a Conscious Experience can affect or guide Evolutionary outcomes.
Complete Fail A species consciouness does not "pick and choose" which new mutations should arise. Mutations are random. There is no "guiding" going on. :lol: :lol:

Set out exactly the evolutionary mechanism, where a species experiencing pain "guides" new mutations to arise.

You can't because your claim is religious Lamarckian crap and you refuse to read any science books.

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Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:05 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:The Physicalists really are getting pretty Delirious over these three statements.
No. We are pissing ourselves laughing at you!!!
SteveKlinko made stupid claim No1 and wrote: If Pain does not have any affect on Evolutionary Outcomes then why would Pain ever Evolve?
The skeptics laughed and wrote:"toe nails must direct and guide evolution otherwise why did we evolve toe nails" "Brown hair must direct and guide evolution otherwise why did we evolve brown hair?"
///////////////////////////////////////
SteveKlinko made stupid claim No2 and wrote: If it was Painful to grow toenails and hair we would not have any today..
The skeptics laughed again and wrote:I see.......... so women stopped having babies because of the pain? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
///////////////////////////////////////////
SteveKlinko made stupid claim No3 and wrote: There has been no coherent argument that shows how Pain has no affect on Evolutionary outcomes.
The skeptics laughed again and wrote: You have now failed 10 times to show how pain, that has already evolved, can "direct" and "guide" evolution as you claimed. When will you show us how your magic form of evolution works?


Give up Steve Klinko. You are simply showing all of us that you don't know anything about evolution and that you are also mad as a hatter. :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Dec 29, 2018 1:24 am

Ummmm....while generally correct, what you quote is Klinko saying "pain has an effect..." NOT what you post saying "...direct and guide." Too very different ideas. On purpose.....or just a hasty error recalling other Klinko posts? If so....you should drop the obvious error and go find the right quote.

Pain IS EXACTLY LIKE toe nails: an evolutionary development that benefits the organism. Contra that is the interesting observation of pain on childbirth.........or pain on passing kidney stones. Every general rule has exceptions. I don't see pain on birth as being advantageous....but assume the same nerves are in other situations?...........and note the pleasure response in getting preggers that started that ball rolling.
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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by SteveKlinko » Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:36 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 1:24 am
Ummmm....while generally correct, what you quote is Klinko saying "pain has an effect..." NOT what you post saying "...direct and guide." Too very different ideas. On purpose.....or just a hasty error recalling other Klinko posts? If so....you should drop the obvious error and go find the right quote.

Pain IS EXACTLY LIKE toe nails: an evolutionary development that benefits the organism. Contra that is the interesting observation of pain on childbirth.........or pain on passing kidney stones. Every general rule has exceptions. I don't see pain on birth as being advantageous....but assume the same nerves are in other situations?...........and note the pleasure response in getting preggers that started that ball rolling.
Yes, Pleasure. That's another whole topic to get into. Pleasure is also a Conscious experience that has Guided Evolution. Every type of Conscious Experience has probably had an effect on Evolution.

I have said that Conscious Experience can Guide and Direct Evolutionary outcomes. But it is more like the Tracks Guiding and Directing the Train. There isn't some kind of bogyman in the Tracks making the Train turn left and right as it goes down the Tracks. The Physicalists are putting the Bogyman into the situation.

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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jan 04, 2019 3:30 pm

What do you mean by Bogyman and why are you introducing him into the situation?
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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by Poodle » Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:49 pm

It's Steve's amusing way of saying he hasn't the faintest idea but insisting upon demanding that nor does anyone else. Cute. eh?

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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by landrew » Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:30 pm

We didn't evolve toenails. They are left over from a time when we used our feet like hands. The nail is a useful tool that goes with dexterous hands used for many things like breaking fruit and grooming.
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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by Gord » Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:48 pm

landrew wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:30 pm
We didn't evolve toenails....
:facepalm:
...They are left over from a time when we used our feet like hands. The nail is a useful tool that goes with dexterous hands used for many things like breaking fruit and grooming.
That's called evolution. Toenails evolved from "pre-toenails" (or as some might call them, "claws").

Here, learn more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nail_(ana ... n_primates
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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:37 am

Toenails. I was gonna say they still protect the toes from stubbing........but I don't think that is actually true, and certainly not worth the ingrown nails that happen from time to time. The most adapted body to its environment happens on a different time scale than the changes to the environment. I regularly use my fingernails to open plastic wrapping or bananas, but not anything with the toes. I can see future humans evolving to no toenails and stronger fingernails?........but then, who needs fingernails to consume tubes of soylent green?

So hooman: to be so impatient.
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Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:54 am

landrew" wrote: We didn't evolve toenails.
All hands and feet evolved from swimming fins when tetrapods moved onto land. This is described in Eight Little Piggies by evolutionary scientist Stephen Gould. Toe and finger nails evolved with early tetrapods.

This is also when all land animals basically converged at five toes and five fingers.
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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by Poodle » Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:09 am

This thing has gone on for far too long. On the one hand, we have Steve who says that his self-proclaimed view of Enid Blyton evolution cannot be false whilst, on the other hand, we have everyone else and their dogs and cats pointing out the outsize errors in Steve's logic. Steve is using dogma (which he thinks is philosophy) whilst everyone else is trying to use logical arguments. It's never worked against god-botherers of any kind and, I'm afraid, Steve is merely another god-botherer although, admittedly, with a novel presentation.
For how long has Gorgeous been here? That's a very similar situation. Steve will continue to sit tight upon his fantasies and everyone else will become frustrated at his intransigence. It has all become pointless.

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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:38 pm

Time to repost my favorite summation: "If the religious could be reasoned with, they wouldn't be religious to begin with." Modify as needed.
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Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:24 am

Poodle wrote: For how long has Gorgeous been here? That's a very similar situation. Steve will continue to sit tight upon his fantasies and everyone else will become frustrated at his intransigence. It has all become pointless.
Steve Klinko is trying to sell t-shirts. He can't sell t-shirts while any search engine brings people here and they can see all the errors in his religious claim. As he wan't to make money, he will give up and try find a new way to sell t-shirts or relocate to another non-science based forum and try again.

"Dianetics" ( bad science) changed its name to "Scientology" (a religion).
:D

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Bees / Unconscious evolution of pain

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:16 am

Steve Klinko claims that the existence of pain is evidence that consciousness guides and drives evolution. The skeptics and scientists on this forum have posted numerous clear reasons why this is total rubbish. Here is another reason.

A bee has evolved a stinger and poison sack, that causes any conscious animal to feel pain. A bee did not evolve this pain giving mechanism consciously. The way a bee uses its stinger is innate and has simply evolved to deter animal predators from disturbing the bee colony's activities.

Therefore we now have a clear example of a non-conscious animal that cause pain to arise.

That negates all Steve Klinko's claims that pain only arose in conscious animal as we can see pain giving mechanism also evolving in innate species evolution.
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Re: Bees / Unconscious evolution of pain

Post by landrew » Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:26 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:16 am
Steve Klinko claims that the existence of pain is evidence that consciousness guides and drives evolution. The skeptics and scientists on this forum have posted numerous clear reasons why this is total rubbish. Here is another reason.

A bee has evolved a stinger and poison sack, that causes any conscious animal to feel pain. A bee did not evolve this pain giving mechanism consciously. The way a bee uses its stinger is innate and has simply evolved to deter animal predators from disturbing the bee colony's activities.

Therefore we now have a clear example of a non-conscious animal that cause pain to arise.

That negates all Steve Klinko's claims that pain only arose in conscious animal as we can see pain giving mechanism also evolving in innate species evolution. Bee.jpg
I agree, but the purpose of the stinger is not to cause pain. It is a powerful toxin that causes injury to tissue, sufficient to kill organisms that don't feel pain, and to deter organisms that are too large to be killed by the toxin. If it were something harmless that only caused pain, like capsaicin, it would be useless against organisms that don't feel pain, like other insects. The pain of the sting is irrelevant to the insect doing the stinging. The stinger evolved as a means of protection, not as any sort of tool for guiding evolution.
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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by SteveKlinko » Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:16 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 3:30 pm
What do you mean by Bogyman and why are you introducing him into the situation?
I'll rephrase what I clearly wrote: The Physicalists are introducing a Bogyman into the argument not me. I'm just pointing it out.

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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by SteveKlinko » Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:24 pm

Poodle wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:09 am
This thing has gone on for far too long. On the one hand, we have Steve who says that his self-proclaimed view of Enid Blyton evolution cannot be false whilst, on the other hand, we have everyone else and their dogs and cats pointing out the outsize errors in Steve's logic. Steve is using dogma (which he thinks is philosophy) whilst everyone else is trying to use logical arguments. It's never worked against god-botherers of any kind and, I'm afraid, Steve is merely another god-botherer although, admittedly, with a novel presentation.
For how long has Gorgeous been here? That's a very similar situation. Steve will continue to sit tight upon his fantasies and everyone else will become frustrated at his intransigence. It has all become pointless.
Because you insist to Lie and say that what I say is Religious, let me repeat what I actually have said.

It's a simple 3 step chain of logic:

1) The experience of Pain increases survival rates.
2) Increased survival rates will affect Evolutionary outcomes.
3) Therefore a Conscious Experience can affect or guide Evolutionary outcomes.

Where is the Religion in that?
Which of the items do you disagree with?

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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:12 am

SteveKlinko wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:24 pm
3) Therefore a Conscious Experience can affect or guide Evolutionary outcomes.

Where is the Religion in that?
Which of the items do you disagree with?
.....guide.....
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Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:08 am

SteveKlinko wrote: 1) The experience of Pain increases survival rates.

"I'm not going to drink this very cold water from this desert oasis. It is too painful to drink" :lol: :lol:

We keep asking you how existing evolved pain levels guide evolution in anyway, as per your religious claim. You simply repeat your religious crap and never offer any scientific mechanism. You then refuse to read any basic science book on evolution as you don't want to see the holes in your religious crap.

Go post your religious crap on a religious forum and try sell your t-shirts there.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:31 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:08 am
SteveKlinko wrote: 1) The experience of Pain increases survival rates.

"I'm not going to drink this very cold water from this desert oasis. It is too painful to drink" :lol: :lol:
This is cherry picking. Like nature itself, there are all kinds of examples pro,con, in between, neutral, otherwise........none of them mean a thing or make an argument re survival rates UNTIL ALL ADDED UP.


Matthew Ellard wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:08 am
SteveKlinko wrote: 1) The experience of Pain increases survival rates.

We keep asking you how existing evolved pain levels guide evolution in anyway, as per your religious claim.
By definition, pain is avoided. That is a guide (sic--better stated it is a factor in the environment that organisms deal with that does affect their survival to reproduction==>that is evolution or the environmental stress/selection factor. In many cases....ignore the pain and you die. Lick that wound so your saliva cleans it and so forth)). It is not an absolute rule allowing advocates of one position or another for whatever reasons to CHERRY PICK their data for the goals desired. I have no doubt at all that the pain of childbirth stops some women from having their next child. Like i said: add them all up.
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:08 am
You simply repeat your religious crap and never offer any scientific mechanism.
Yes, that refusal to answer direct questions is quite a tell. Know what I mean: MATT?
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:08 am
Go post your religious crap on a religious forum and try sell your t-shirts there. [/color]
Well, it "can be" fun to debunk religious and other crap.....but Like God, his tools on Earth tend not to respond. This results in dog whistles only. Now.........I like dogs, but I am not a dog. Go figure.
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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:44 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:"I'm not going to drink this very cold water from this desert oasis. It is too painful to drink" :lol: :lol:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:This is cherry picking. Like nature itself, there are all kinds of examples pro,con, in between, neutral, otherwise........none of them mean a thing or make an argument re survival rates UNTIL ALL ADDED UP.
Yes it is cherry picking. Steve Klinko simply doesn't "get it". You don't know if reducing or increasing the pain threshold would be an evolutionary advantage unless you know what the entire future environment is. Bees evolved stingers with no consciousness at all. Some honey bears evolved reduced pain to bee stingers to eat honey and reap an advantage over other species. Their consciousness had nothing to do with their evolution.

It is simply a waste of time trying to explain basic science to Steve Klinko, so it is now time to make more fun of him. :D

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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:23 am

Well thanks Matt. An entirely relevant post. I'm glad Hitler didn't keep bees.

You are however changing what Klinko posted, as you all too often do. He, and no one else either, did not post about "increasing the pain threshold"...I congratulate you for not digging Hitler up for every argument...but Hitler is easy to bury again. It would be so much more rewarding if you would stop mischaracterizing what other people OBVIOUSLY POST and the positions they take.
You don't know if reducing or increasing the pain threshold would be an evolutionary advantage unless you know what the entire future environment is.
Wut? We wouldn't know anything THEN either. Evolution is too complex........we don't know and probably never will how all the relevant factors play off against one another resulting in evolution. Simply to complex. Posturing to say otherwise regardless of what you want to posture....religion and science having the same lack of perspicacity.
Bees evolved stingers with no consciousness at all. Some honey bears evolved reduced pain to bee stingers to eat honey and reap an advantage over other species. Their consciousness had nothing to do with their evolution.
Quite correct........so, at least with the honey bears evolution occurred because the pain reaction was lessened. iow in the dislocated language used: pain directed evolution. Is your argument a very small one with only the words used, in which you are right...........or about the IDEAS involved, in which you are wrong? Interested minds want to quibble.
It is simply a waste of time trying to explain basic science to Steve Klinko, so it is now time to make more fun of him.
Yeah butt: Klinko is not your only audience. Your chess game should be the best you can offer, not just good enough to beat someone who can't play the game.
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Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:05 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist" wrote:You are however changing what Klinko posted, as you all too often do. He, and no one else either, did not post about "increasing the pain threshold"...
No Bobbo he said pain guides evolution and I gave clear example of scenarios where reduced pain would be an evolutionary example.

It went over your head.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:38 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:05 am
bobbo_the_Pragmatist" wrote:You are however changing what Klinko posted, as you all too often do. He, and no one else either, did not post about "increasing the pain threshold"...
No Bobbo he said pain guides evolution and I gave clear example of scenarios where reduced pain would be an evolutionary example.

It went over your head.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Please copy and paste where Klinko, or anyone other than yourself, has posted about increasing the pain threshold. Similarly, in my view stating that "pain guides evolution" while sloppy and inexact includes the notion of increasing or decreasing pain thresholds. What kind of artificial distinction are you trying to impute to Klink? Did you file it with the Court under seal? ((bhwahahahahaha)).

As posted three times now.........yes Klink has some of the words wrong, but the idea is clear enough.........other than whatever is meant by consciousness getting involved. You can separate a yolk from the albumen in a cracked egg and even one lightly scrambled. Full Scramble....impossible.
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Re: Addressing the Physicalist Delirium

Post by Poodle » Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:16 am

SteveKlinko wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:24 pm
Poodle wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:09 am
This thing has gone on for far too long. On the one hand, we have Steve who says that his self-proclaimed view of Enid Blyton evolution cannot be false whilst, on the other hand, we have everyone else and their dogs and cats pointing out the outsize errors in Steve's logic. Steve is using dogma (which he thinks is philosophy) whilst everyone else is trying to use logical arguments. It's never worked against god-botherers of any kind and, I'm afraid, Steve is merely another god-botherer although, admittedly, with a novel presentation.
For how long has Gorgeous been here? That's a very similar situation. Steve will continue to sit tight upon his fantasies and everyone else will become frustrated at his intransigence. It has all become pointless.
Because you insist to Lie and say that what I say is Religious, let me repeat what I actually have said.

It's a simple 3 step chain of logic:

1) The experience of Pain increases survival rates.
2) Increased survival rates will affect Evolutionary outcomes.
3) Therefore a Conscious Experience can affect or guide Evolutionary outcomes.

Where is the Religion in that?
Which of the items do you disagree with?
I've said before, Steve, that you are not reading replies to the point of comprehension. I may have used the term 'pseudo-religious'. That does not mean 'religious'. So where's the lie? Your entire 'theory' is conjectural and based upon a misunderstanding of evolution and human physiology. How could I lie about that?

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Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:45 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Please copy and paste where Klinko, or anyone other than yourself, has posted about increasing the pain threshold.
You really aren't getting this are you.

1) A creature that feels a level of pain already has evolved the genes that feel that level of pain, which means it is neutral to the species survival in the environment.
2) Steve Klinko claims the feeling of pain "guides" evolution.
3) I gave examples where both an evolved reduced feeling of pain and an evolved increased feeling pain offer evolutionary advantages
4) That means there is no guiding going on.

Try keep up.

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Re: Debunk / Inter Mind Religion

Post by OlegTheBatty » Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:21 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:45 pm
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Please copy and paste where Klinko, or anyone other than yourself, has posted about increasing the pain threshold.
You really aren't getting this are you.

1) A creature that feels a level of pain already has evolved the genes that feel that level of pain, which means it is neutral to the species survival in the environment.
2) Steve Klinko claims the feeling of pain "guides" evolution.
3) I gave examples where both an evolved reduced feeling of pain and an evolved increased feeling pain offer evolutionary advantages
4) That means there is no guiding going on.

Try keep up.
Pain motivates avoidance behaviour. The critters that are better at avoiding pain causing phenomena have a better chance at reproducing. Avoidance behaviour is selected for. Pain is the messenger that this is something to stay away from.

Steve's tail is wagging his dog.
. . . with the satisfied air of a man who thinks he has an idea of his own because he has commented on the idea of another . . . - Alexandre Dumas 'The Count of Monte Cristo"

There is no statement so absurd that it has not been uttered by some philosopher. - Cicero

.......................Doesn't matter how often I'm proved wrong.................... ~ bobbo the pragmatist