It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Gord » Thu Nov 22, 2018 2:03 am

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Is Trump in jail yet?

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Nov 22, 2018 2:57 am

Upton: Thanks for catching 2018 of course was meant to be 2020. My fingers like every extension I have, have minds of their own. I don't think I posted that "exact" idea before....probably just the tempo of quibbling?

Upton: Stupid vs Insane.///Doesn't matter what it "is"....only what it does. This very much follows the quote from your link on the Fourth Turn in American fortunes: “You cannot reason a man out of a position he has not reasoned himself into,” as Jonathan Swift put it. Thats a keeper for me.

and following right after that we get a Troika touched on often in this thread: "The voters are only getting worse, too, for three basic reasons: immigration, indoctrination and moral corruption. Let’s consider …..

Immigration: Link says this increases Dumbo votes. I accept that. My own disagreement with immigration is that it suppresses wages and long term when not integrated into society (caused by low wages and no upward mobility" we get backwaters of cultural disfunction.

Indoctrination: Link says this is about MAMA. We've never been M. I'm only footnoting here, otherwise this presents more than a quibble. My too quick read: this indoctrination dispute is just the political divide.

Moral Corruption: I won't even look for the articles point. Its LEGAL corruption that is doing us in. One of the worst tropes being circulated right now is that our Societal Institutions are resilient and "still work." ie, that Trumps corruption is being stopped by our Court System. HOOEY!!!!!!! Stopping the very worst corruption that steps on the toes of the corruption of the Supremes is NOT "the system WORKING." it demonstrates how steep the decline of our society is. A slight positive tip does not alter the end point, only the timing.

I'd write more...…….but.....its not a healthy place to work.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by scrmbldggs » Thu Nov 22, 2018 2:30 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 2:57 am
...My own disagreement with immigration is that it suppresses wages and long term when not integrated into society (caused by low wages and no upward mobility" we get backwaters of cultural disfunction...
That's because the wealthy Reptilians prefer it that way.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by TJrandom » Thu Nov 22, 2018 6:43 pm

It seems to me that success with MAGA or MAMA could only be reached after success with MADA... D - Democratic.

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Gord » Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:06 pm

Is Trump in jail yet?

https://www.google.ca/search?q=is+trump ... n+jail+yet

Nope, guess not.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by scrmbldggs » Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:28 pm

But maybe soon. Interpol dodged a bullet and now can go after him. :mrgreen:
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Nov 23, 2018 9:15 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 2:30 pm
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 2:57 am
...My own disagreement with immigration is that it suppresses wages and long term when not integrated into society (caused by low wages and no upward mobility" we get backwaters of cultural disfunction...
That's because the wealthy Reptilians prefer it that way.
It would be nice if that were true, but it isn't. Immigration is what it is and its what it IS that Pukes take advantage of. You are suggesting that increased immigration would naturally increase wages if Pukes did not somehow pervert it?...…….Logic and History without exception shows this to be false.

Check your bias...…….recognize the "cons" that go with any "pro" you have for immigration.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Nov 23, 2018 9:21 pm

In the main, there are NO pros for immigration except hazy feel good opinions/values eg: diversity? A very squishy value....a mere label placed on a more complex issue. What are the pros and cons of diversity that cannot be had by ways other than immigration?

In the main, there is a mismatch. Immigration greatly advantages the immigrant...and that is why it happens. It harms more than helps the receiving country. Contra: without immigration both legal and illegal, the tax base would shrink causing a host of disruptions BUT the solution there is to find tax/spending policies that are not based on a Ponzi Scheme of ever increasing wage slaves aka: Tax the Rich.

Everything is connected to everything else, Everything is a mix of pros and cons.

Yea, verily.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by scrmbldggs » Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:10 pm

OMKFC, they're coming for me! Quick, shut down the gubmint!
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by OlegTheBatty » Fri Nov 23, 2018 11:07 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 9:21 pm
In the main, there are NO pros for immigration except hazy feel good opinions/values eg: diversity? A very squishy value....a mere label placed on a more complex issue. What are the pros and cons of diversity that cannot be had by ways other than immigration?

In the main, there is a mismatch. Immigration greatly advantages the immigrant...and that is why it happens. It harms more than helps the receiving country. Contra: without immigration both legal and illegal, the tax base would shrink causing a host of disruptions BUT the solution there is to find tax/spending policies that are not based on a Ponzi Scheme of ever increasing wage slaves aka: Tax the Rich.

Everything is connected to everything else, Everything is a mix of pros and cons.

Yea, verily.
The immigrant benefits, but the host country also benefits. Without immigration, all of OECD countries' economies would stagnate. Natural population growth can't keep up with supplying the workers needed for even a 2% growth in the economy (ie, the inflation rate).
Just because the US has enclaves of impoverished immigrants doesn't mean other countries do too. That is a USA phenomenon and needs a made in USA explanation. Eggs is partly right, it is because the Repugs want it that way, but, more broadly, it is because the already-too-rich want it that way for the cheap labour, and they control the US government to a much greater extent than they control most others.

Immigrants create more jobs than they occupy for the same reason that a sawmill creates more jobs in a community than just the sawmill employees.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by landrew » Sat Nov 24, 2018 2:04 am

Economies benefit from the free-market exchange of labor the same way they do from goods or services. Beyond that, if the best and the brightest want to immigrate from a third-world country, it's their loss and our gain. Nearly every country has immigration policies which promote allowing immigrants with much to contribute to the economy to enter. Very few are allowed in just to be a drain on social resources.

The exception is of course a refugee situation, but in that case it's a matter of basic humanity whether to allow people to flee oppression, or to send them back into the jaws of oppression. I doubt even the most hardcore Trumpite would want to be in the shoes of someone who fled gang violence being deported back into the same unbearable scenario.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Nov 24, 2018 4:51 am

Eggs: interesting you default to sarcasm rather than deal with the post.

Oleg: Thats what I said and from prior posts: there is no such thing as "an economy" and no one should care whether it somehow benefits or not. The relevant concern is that all such policies will hurt some people and benefit others. Its the pros and cons analysis that is never done. I'm not an economist but hard to think ours benefits from immigrant supplied labor when the stress causing lack of growth in INDIVIDUAL quality of life is increasing/exclusionary AUTOMATION and robotics and computerization and "sharing." Eggs is NOT right. AGAIN: Pukes and Dumbos TAKE ADVANTAGE of what immigration "does"==>they don't cause it.

Landrew: I agree immigration of the brightest helps the economy. I can't prove that, but I do accept it on faith. Now: why are immigration policies without the identification of needed services so in vogue if IN GENERAL immigration was a good thing?

Its all mostly a lie. Feels good: but can't be argued except by talking points. The data set is not kept to check any claim. The economy is driven by MANY factors, with labor almost dropping out of the equation...……..except for soft skinned fruit?
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:26 pm

Gord wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:19 am
Trump finally drove Cenk Uygur insane:

Ana sounds like she's going to die from laughter.
I particularly like the point made near the end. Trump thinks he's getting in a dig at California for "forest mismanagement," but in fact 60% of California's forests are run by his own FEDERAL government, and about half of the others are in private hands.
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:42 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 2:57 am
Immigration: Link says this increases Dumbo votes. I accept that. My own disagreement with immigration is that it suppresses wages and long term when not integrated into society (caused by low wages and no upward mobility" we get backwaters of cultural disfunction.

Indoctrination: Link says this is about MAMA. We've never been M. I'm only footnoting here, otherwise this presents more than a quibble. My too quick read: this indoctrination dispute is just the political divide.
Immigration comes at a price, of course, but in the long term, we're better off because the Irish, the Italians, the Poles, the Jews,....all came here. I think of it as a short-term investment. Meanwhile, there are the descendants of people who were already here when the Europeans arrived, and the descendants of people brought here much against their will to be worked to death. And their problems continue to fester. Immigration isn't our biggest problem.

Even in terms of jobs, it's the jobs that are emigrating or being replaced by robots that are causing most of the dislocation. I don't know what to do about either of them. Technology has made it possible for the wealthy corporations to exploit cheap labor anywhere, and of course they take advantage of that. Anyone who was out shopping yesterday is part of the problem, so we'll all have to work at solving it.

:oldman: In the end, it becomes a matter of getting people to understand---truly understand---that, as Thoreau put it, "Superfluous wealth can buy superfluities only." Everything a person owns has a claim on his/her time, and that's in limited supply for everyone. Not even the wealthiest 0.1% can buy themselves a 120-year lifespan, and anything less than that runs out before you know it. I used to think all those warnings against materialism, as in the Sermon on the Mount, were a "counsel of perfection." And they were, in the sense that they were not destined to have any widespread acceptance among people who were young or even middle-aged. Now, as a creaking old geezer, I see that in fact they constitute very practical advice for securing one's own happiness. Unfortunately, too many people are willing to accept the destruction of the human community and the natural environment that comes from this mad scramble to consume. :oldman:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 2:57 am
Moral Corruption: I won't even look for the articles point. Its LEGAL corruption that is doing us in. One of the worst tropes being circulated right now is that our Societal Institutions are resilient and "still work." ie, that Trumps corruption is being stopped by our Court System. HOOEY!!!!!!! Stopping the very worst corruption that steps on the toes of the corruption of the Supremes is NOT "the system WORKING." it demonstrates how steep the decline of our society is. A slight positive tip does not alter the end point, only the timing.

I'd write more...…….but.....its not a healthy place to work.
:good:
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

Vyacheslav Mikhailovich Skryabin (“Molotov”)

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:45 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:26 pm
Gord wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:19 am
Trump finally drove Cenk Uygur insane:

Ana sounds like she's going to die from laughter.
I particularly like the point made near the end. Trump thinks he's getting in a dig at California for "forest mismanagement," but in fact 60% of California's forests are run by his own FEDERAL government, and about half of the others are in private hands.
Fires are a local issue. California and most other states/localities are woefully behind times/requirements/knowledge curve in setting zoning and building codes for the risks of any building permit. I don't know the Paradise area, from the news reports its weird, many tall trees interspersed with burned down housing....mostly mobile homes in the clips I see.

Something ain't right. Thats an open question re the Campfire occurrence. A totally closed on re the inadequacies of Trump.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:52 pm

Upton: one of your longer posts just above. Nice sentiments, "but" I think it suffers from the either/or fallacy. POINT IS: you need enough money to be happy....happy doesn't march on an empty stomach.

What is the "benefit" of the groups you mentioned? What did they bring to the party that no immigration and internal population growth would not have provided? If not then....then now?? The mindset of over populating our planet more than begins with over populating individual countries. Who needs wide open spaces?

Just a lot of bad ideas LABELED otherwise to keep the sheep grazing.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by scrmbldggs » Sun Nov 25, 2018 2:25 am

There's a claim his minions struck some deal with Mexico to keep asylum seekers on their side while their applications "are being processed" - and, if so, he makes who (you!) pay for it?
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by JO 753 » Sun Nov 25, 2018 2:46 am

They coud just say they are only passing thru on their way up to Canada.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Nov 25, 2018 4:53 am

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:42 pm
Immigration comes at a price, of course, but in the long term, we're better off because the Irish, the Italians, the Poles, the Jews,....all came here. I think of it as a short-term investment. Meanwhile, there are the descendants of people who were already here when the Europeans arrived, and the descendants of people brought here much against their will to be worked to death. And their problems continue to fester. Immigration isn't our biggest problem.
I think i can expand on this to interesting conflict. One of my base premises is that "We are all the same." All people everywhere and in the main, men/women/the GGBQ eetc alphabet too. Just hoomans. making our best way that we can. It is with this understanding that I wonder what message is being responded to when pro-immigration statements like that one are made. If we are all the same.....how can addid Irish to the mix be any different than adding any other group OR adding from the group already present?
Are we all the same or somehow different? If different and you've admitted there are tradeoffs, then seems to me one cannot say that Immigration is Good. At best, one can only say it is good and bad. Only now can the fun begin: whats good about it, the cost, the harm etc. whats bad about it, the cost, the harm etc. No one ever does that. Investments whether short or long term are also good and bad. Calling anything an investment is just filler.

I already identified that the squishy concept of "diversity" is often given as a benefit of immigration. But who wants bad diversity? I don't. IDENTIFY what is good about immigration and filter the draw to get that. We grabbed Werner Van Braun for his rocket expertise....whe didn't need to import the Nazi Party to get him. Immigration: a very blunt net damaging tool. Lets be more precise if particular talent is desired?

Do we need non-native people to fill up our so called empty spaces?===No. Not any more.

Do we need cannon fodder to use up enemy resources?===Probably given the number of conflicts we choose to be in. I'd argue not being so engaged would be a better option, but until then.............. And btw: I think it is dishonest of us to offer citizenship to folks who do fight for us, wrongheaded policy though it is, and then in various ways renig on that promise. Horrible BS that.

do we need workers to create jobs and increase tax revenues?===Again, to the degree this is true, it only supports policies that are bad to begin with...........and in the main, my gut tells me it isn't true. OF COURSE: exceptions can be found, but the general rule? How many uneducated, non-English speaking, religiously and culturally inept people create how many jobs? I mean: lets get real.

We are all the same. Who needs us????
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:47 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:52 pm
What is the "benefit" of the groups you mentioned? What did they bring to the party that no immigration and internal population growth would not have provided?
It's a thing called "hybrid vigor." It's generally been the case that the most creative societies in history have been amalgams of many cultures. Bertrand Russell pointed out that there is no advantage to having a "pure" language or belonging to a pure ethnicity, citing the Thracians vs. the Athenians. He might have cited the xenophobic Spartans as well. The Athenians had a very mixed society, with many "xenoi" who contributed to social life. Aristotle himself was a northerner, even though he lived and worked in Athens.

If literary, scientific, and artistic creativity are not considered important, you do indeed get a more stable (and eventually ossified) society by cutting off immigration. It's been done. Japan cut off all access to Western countries in the 17th century. By the 19th, it was far behind the West it didn't want to deal with. The Meiji revolution in 1868 occurred when the Japanese realized how far behind they were. The same thing happened in the USSR in the 20th century, where a xenophobic government kept foreigners away and wound up far behind those foreigners.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:51 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:52 pm
Upton: one of your longer posts just above. Nice sentiments, "but" I think it suffers from the either/or fallacy. POINT IS: you need enough money to be happy....happy doesn't march on an empty stomach.

How did you get an either/or fallacy out of this?
Upton_O_Goode wrote: In the end, it becomes a matter of getting people to understand---truly understand---that, as Thoreau put it, "Superfluous wealth can buy superfluities only." Everything a person owns has a claim on his/her time, and that's in limited supply for everyone. Not even the wealthiest 0.1% can buy themselves a 120-year lifespan, and anything less than that runs out before you know it. I used to think all those warnings against materialism, as in the Sermon on the Mount, were a "counsel of perfection." And they were, in the sense that they were not destined to have any widespread acceptance among people who were young or even middle-aged. Now, as a creaking old geezer, I see that in fact they constitute very practical advice for securing one's own happiness. Unfortunately, too many people are willing to accept the destruction of the human community and the natural environment that comes from this mad scramble to consume.
I'm positive you know the meaning of the word superfluous. So it's not that. How does decrying a "mad scramble to consume" deny that people need a certain minimum amount of money to be happy? Just curious, because it seems to me you are the one injecting an either/or fallacy: Either we have a mad scramble to consume, or people don't have enough money to be happy.
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

Vyacheslav Mikhailovich Skryabin (“Molotov”)

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Sun Nov 25, 2018 4:49 pm

I'm wondering why people assume that the refugees are here for economic reasons. Is it so inconceivable that they are genuine refugees?

Not that this would matter to a Trump supporter like this guy. I heard this interview this morning after dropping my wife off at church, and I nearly went ballistic inside the car. How can a person be so morally obtuse that, when asked by a reporter if the leader of another country's ordering a murder should affect our policy, he replied that he didn't see any reason why it should? In fact, he said, he didn't understand the question. (I am NOT making this up.) When the reporter naturally followed up by asking what grounds we would have for defending human rights, he opined airily that we should "always keep the pressure on for human rights." Right. That worked so well with the Nazis, didn't it? We could have had really YUUGE trade deals with the Germans, really GREAT trading relations, if only we'd been willing to overlook a few murders.

Of course, we did bend over backwards in the effort to overlook them, and we sent a whole boatload of children to their deaths because we didn't want to risk any jobs that might be lost, or upsetting the racist/anti-Semites among us.

Keep in mind that the following words were spoken by Franklin Roosevelt, NOT Donald Trump. It's hard to do, because there are uncanny similarities in the sentiments expressed. It's just What Happened in France Last Night, not What Happened in Sweden Last Night:
Franklin Delano Roosevelt wrote: Now, of course, the refugee has got to be checked because, unfortunately, among the refugees there are some spies, as has been found in other countries. And not all of them are voluntary spies—it is rather a horrible story but in some of the other countries that refugees out of Germany have gone to, especially Jewish refugees, they found a number of definitely proven spies. (June 5, 1940)
Right, those Muslim terroristsJewish spies are insidiously hiding among the refugees, and we couldn't possibly vet them, so KEEP THEM ALL OUT! Just can't take any chances. You can never be too careful! Safety first! Never mind humanity. After all, you let immigrants in and you get people spying for the Soviet Union like Julius and Ethel Rosenberg.

Oh wait, both of the Rosenbergs were born in New York.
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

Vyacheslav Mikhailovich Skryabin (“Molotov”)

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by scrmbldggs » Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:28 pm

Yabut, what about them parents of them spies?


And besides the as of yet unfounded claims about Mexico keeping them darn asylum seekers behind the border for now, in another effort to appeal to MS voters, ICE is taking out a page from MBS's playbook, luring undocumented immigrants into offices to complete their filings for deferment - to then tackle them to the ground, arrest (and deport) them.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:21 pm

So, whassup with our PresidentT these days? He seems to be imitating Caesar's Gallic War and writing about himself in the third person. Not that I think he has actually read (or even heard of) De bello gallico.
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by ElectricMonk » Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:40 pm

Well, he has been fighting against the Chieftain of the Gauls, Macron.

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Aztexan » Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:29 pm

When asked his opinion on Caesar, trump replied, "I prefer Ranch or Thousand Island."
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by landrew » Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:37 pm

Aztexan wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:29 pm
When asked his opinion on Caesar, trump replied, "I prefer Ranch or Thousand Island."
He obviously doesn't prefer French.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by TJrandom » Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:02 pm

That sourpuss obviously just takes vinegar.

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Gord » Tue Nov 27, 2018 12:42 am

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:21 pm
...Not that I think he has actually read (or even heard of) De bello gallico.
If he has heard of it, he probably thinks it's about bells and garlic.

Or as he calls it: "Mexican food".
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:35 am

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:47 am
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:52 pm
What is the "benefit" of the groups you mentioned? What did they bring to the party that no immigration and internal population growth would not have provided?
It's a thing called "hybrid vigor." It's generally been the case that the most creative societies in history have been amalgams of many cultures. Bertrand Russell pointed out that there is no advantage to having a "pure" language or belonging to a pure ethnicity, citing the Thracians vs. the Athenians. He might have cited the xenophobic Spartans as well. The Athenians had a very mixed society, with many "xenoi" who contributed to social life. Aristotle himself was a northerner, even though he lived and worked in Athens.

If literary, scientific, and artistic creativity are not considered important, you do indeed get a more stable (and eventually ossified) society by cutting off immigration. It's been done. Japan cut off all access to Western countries in the 17th century. By the 19th, it was far behind the West it didn't want to deal with. The Meiji revolution in 1868 occurred when the Japanese realized how far behind they were. The same thing happened in the USSR in the 20th century, where a xenophobic government kept foreigners away and wound up far behind those foreigners.
Thanks Upton. I do look for my position to be improved by stress testing?


It's a thing called "hybrid vigor." It's generally been the case that the most creative societies in history have been amalgams of many cultures. /// Ok....i'll take the opposite position and say that the most creative/successful/impactful/relevant societies in history have been those that are the most homogenous.

Bertrand Russell pointed out that there is no advantage to having a "pure" language or belonging to a pure ethnicity, citing the Thracians vs. the Athenians. He might have cited the xenophobic Spartans as well. The Athenians had a very mixed society, with many "xenoi" who contributed to social life. Aristotle himself was a northerner, even though he lived and worked in Athens. //// EXCELLENT: as you reference the very societies I was thinkiing of. Sadly, I don't know my early cultures/societies history well enough to day but my response none-the-less will be that the xenoi were close enough "ethnically (whatever that means or actually was at the time)" as to comprise a non-diverse culture. So, I'll start with the dictionary:

xenoi: guest stranger. No help there. Hmmmm....didn't you have a signature line that said some people think they are accomplished merely when quoting someone ELSE who was? Anyway, I don't want to fall into that truism......by filtering google for whatever may support my position. Its too shallow..............what to do?

Back to basics: you didn't address the actual question put to you: How did the immigration of the Irish make America a better functioning country, short term investment or otherwise?..................and how would any such positive not be available by some other action that would avoid whatever negatives you would recognize? Quoting Russell without more context is a dodge. I certainly accept that ALL SOCIETIES are a mixture of elements. THE ARGUMENT IS: how does adding to any element of diversity actually benefit the society?

I'll stop there, just to make a tight focus.

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

If literary, scientific, and artistic creativity are not considered important, you do indeed get a more stable (and eventually ossified) society by cutting off immigration. It's been done. Japan cut off all access to Western countries in the 17th century. By the 19th, it was far behind the West it didn't want to deal with. The Meiji revolution in 1868 occurred when the Japanese realized how far behind they were. The same thing happened in the USSR in the 20th century, where a xenophobic government kept foreigners away and wound up far behind those foreigners. //// Thats and excellent example..........but you are making MY POINT. The Japanese were behind because of TECHNOLOGY/SCIENCE......not because they didn't invite the Porteugese and Spanish to invade and occupy their land. AS I STATED: they saw the lack of technology in their society and they sought that technology out NOT by inviting immigration........very much the Werner Von Braun example. And Japan has continued to be an immigration shunning society ALL TO THEIR BENEFIT as they would argue. For a country of 60 million or so.....they advanced to challenge world powers and to become the Worlds 2-3rd largest economy until the rise of the Pacific Rim.

Japan stands as an excellent example that you don't need diversity to succeed. ............. Conversely: take the native peoples of almost anywhere/time that do invite or don't kill off the early diversity of their societies?====>absolute destruction and take-over. THAT is diversity as well. Heh, heh. Lets see: which is better, the ossification of Japan, or the total wipe out of Native American/hawaiian/Moari/Aboriginal cultures?

......but I do prefer my sashimi well done.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:43 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:35 am

Sadly, I don't know my early cultures/societies history well enough to day but my response none-the-less will be that the xenoi were close enough "ethnically (whatever that means or actually was at the time)" as to comprise a non-diverse culture. So, I'll start with the dictionary:

xenoi: guest stranger. No help there. Hmmmm....didn't you have a signature line that said some people think they are accomplished merely when quoting someone ELSE who was?
Nope, that wasn't me. But if someone else has said something one considers appropriate, quoting is the thing to do. Paraphrasing it amounts to claiming it for oneself, which is not quite honest.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:35 am
Anyway, I don't want to fall into that truism......by filtering google for whatever may support my position. Its too shallow..............what to do?
Let's be clear here: Are you or are you not accusing me of "filtering google for whatever may support my position"? If you are, please say so. If not, please write more carefully.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:35 am
Back to basics: you didn't address the actual question put to you: How did the immigration of the Irish make America a better functioning country, short term investment or otherwise?..................and how would any such positive not be available by some other action that would avoid whatever negatives you would recognize? Quoting Russell without more context is a dodge. I certainly accept that ALL SOCIETIES are a mixture of elements. THE ARGUMENT IS: how does adding to any element of diversity actually benefit the society?
Here we go again: You insist that no general statement can ever be valid. If I said "All men are mortal," you'd demand to see proof that Bill Clinton and Donald Trump and Emmanuel Macron and....are all mortal. A civilization is a painting on an enormous canvas. I could point out the wonderful music and architecture produced by people named Cohan and Sullivan (Irish) or the books of Philip Roth, or... but what good would it do? Absolutely EVERYTHING produced by Americans of European descent is the result of immigration. Open your eyes!!!
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:35 am
I'll stop there, just to make a tight focus.
Too late!

We went through this same idiotic tango nearly two years ago when I said a friend of mine had moved to Germany because of Trump, and you kept mindlessly insisting that I didn't have the least idea why he did that because I didn't know my friend's position on immigration and other things.
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Tue Nov 27, 2018 12:01 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:35 am
The Japanese were behind because of TECHNOLOGY/SCIENCE......not because they didn't invite the Porteugese and Spanish to invade and occupy their land. AS I STATED: they saw the lack of technology in their society and they sought that technology out NOT by inviting immigration........very much the Werner Von Braun example. And Japan has continued to be an immigration shunning society ALL TO THEIR BENEFIT as they would argue. For a country of 60 million or so.....they advanced to challenge world powers and to become the Worlds 2-3rd largest economy until the rise of the Pacific Rim.

Japan stands as an excellent example that you don't need diversity to succeed. ............. Conversely: take the native peoples of almost anywhere/time that do invite or don't kill off the early diversity of their societies?====>absolute destruction and take-over. THAT is diversity as well. Heh, heh. Lets see: which is better, the ossification of Japan, or the total wipe out of Native American/hawaiian/Moari/Aboriginal cultures?

......but I do prefer my sashimi well done.
You've got a VERY short memory. Japan imported enough technology after 1868 to make it aggressive, then stupidly overreached and got conquered by the West, which installed a democratic government and provided aid to rebuild the place. The economic miracle you are writing about happened because a bunch of foreigners came in and ran things. Once Japan returned to its traditional xenophobic ways, its economy ran out of steam, and it's now had a quarter-century of stagnation.

Your breathtaking equivocation between wiping out an indigenous population and a controllable rate of immigration leaves nothing more to be said. Are there ANY two distinct things that you are capable of distinguishing? Talk about false dichotomies: EITHER we get wiped out by aggressive invaders OR we shut off all immigration. Sheesh!!!
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

Vyacheslav Mikhailovich Skryabin (“Molotov”)

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Nov 28, 2018 5:19 am

Lots of responses, I'll respond to each one that I disagree with or benefits from a response.

1.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: ↑
Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:35 pm
Anyway, I don't want to fall into that truism......by filtering google for whatever may support my position. Its too shallow..............what to do?
Let's be clear here: Are you or are you not accusing me of "filtering google for whatever may support my position"? If you are, please say so. If not, please write more carefully.
I see that a sloppy writer or sloppy or overly sensitive/suspicious reader might think a statement expressly referenced to me might apply to them, but I do tend to write what I mean always keeping in mind the difference between I, We, and You. Yes, I note what I did there...……...YOU might be the object of MY recognition of sensitivity, as I see the issue is presented several times in your response.

2.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: ↑
Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:35 pm
Back to basics: you didn't address the actual question put to you: How did the immigration of the Irish make America a better functioning country, short term investment or otherwise?..................and how would any such positive not be available by some other action that would avoid whatever negatives you would recognize? Quoting Russell without more context is a dodge. I certainly accept that ALL SOCIETIES are a mixture of elements. THE ARGUMENT IS: how does adding to any element of diversity actually benefit the society?
Here we go again: You insist that no general statement can ever be valid. If I said "All men are mortal," you'd demand to see proof that Bill Clinton and Donald Trump and Emmanuel Macron and....are all mortal. A civilization is a painting on an enormous canvas. I could point out the wonderful music and architecture produced by people named Cohan and Sullivan (Irish) or the books of Philip Roth, or... but what good would it do? Absolutely EVERYTHING produced by Americans of European descent is the result of immigration. Open your eyes!!!
This really should be instructive for YOU, because it is filled with non-sequiturs that EVERYONE should agree exist especially after they are pointed out? Only the feeble and crusty will disagree:

1. Here we go again: You insist that no general statement can ever be valid.////I never said anything like that. If you said all men are mortal, Id agree and ask what that has to do with the question before us. What I SAID was: "Quoting Russell without more context is a dodge." You serially are not responsive to the argument before you but are off on tangents not made relevant by connecting your reference to the subject. You continue this smoke screen by stating another irrelevant metaphor "A civilization is a painting on an enormous canvas." I agree....that is exactly why the pros and cons of immigration need to be looked at for the individual brush strokes that make up the total picture. Painting in only one color is an error that all too many people make...……..yes, that includes YOU on this subject.


2. I could point out the wonderful music and architecture produced by people named Cohan and Sullivan (Irish) or the books of Philip Roth, or... but what good would it do? /// What architecture did they produce? ((Sorry....it was naked just standing there)). Of course. the wonderful things that people do are great. We put all those on the plus or "Pro" side to the impact of immigration. If you think such a lame approach to defending your position is worthy, I'll respond lamely just to show you the error: SLAVERY was a good think because of ……….Jazz. I reference now the great Nine Part Series on this beneficial impact by Ken Burns. He also did a documentary on architecture. Hmmm....refresh my memory.....was/is slavery a good thing? If I can find anyone who was a slave who made good music does that absolve the unexamined/unrecognized/unadmitted to negatives? Is it okay to argue as if that was the case?

3. Absolutely EVERYTHING produced by Americans of European descent is the result of immigration. Open your eyes!!! ///// I open them and I see a text book example of a tautology. So blatant, I am curious why you let it stand. Will you agree then that the establishment of Organized Crime Families from Scicily is the result of immigration from Sicicily? Will you recognize and agree that both effects should be part of anyone's contemplation and appreciation? My real question: how to sum them up...........and the 1000's of other such effects. In the main: my concern has been stated as immigration acting as a suppression of wages. Arguments about music and architecture do not address this concern as if conceded by default.

4.
[bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: ↑
Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:35 pm
I'll stop there, just to make a tight focus.
Too late!

We went through this same idiotic tango nearly two years ago when I said a friend of mine had moved to Germany because of Trump, and you kept mindlessly insisting that I didn't have the least idea why he did that because I didn't know my friend's position on immigration and other things.
I don't get the relevance of this at all..........or is it psychological? Your entire position being one of petulance because of an unrelated past argument? But I'll dance along: please name how it is the same? So far, trying to keep a tight focus, is the opposite of expanding the subject by raising anything but something relevant in response?

5.
You've got a VERY short memory. Japan imported enough technology after 1868 to make it aggressive, then stupidly overreached and got conquered by the West, which installed a democratic government and provided aid to rebuild the place. The economic miracle you are writing about happened because a bunch of foreigners came in and ran things. Once Japan returned to its traditional xenophobic ways, its economy ran out of steam, and it's now had a quarter-century of stagnation.
Sadly, you miss the POINT entirely. YOU said that japan "ossified" by its failure to allow immigration. You can't ossify and overreach and have an economic miracle at the same time. Arguendo (as you overstate the involvement): even if a bunch of foreigners came in and ran things: there still was and is no liberal immigration policy in Japan. Japan is for the Japanese: with all its Pros and cons. There are Pros and Cons to immigration, and there are Pros and Cons when dissallowing immigration. See? Lots of benefits to having an homegenous society.....basically just introduces a different set of problems BECAUSE the problems of immigration are not present. People always gotta have problems. Its the nature of our beast.

Stagnation: in 165 years Japan went from feudal tribalism to Worlds Second Highest GDP and now back to about N0 6 or so and has done so with one of the harshest anti-immigration and pro-racists policies in the world. Japan has always been xenophobic, there was no departure and hence no return to it. Most societies would kill (sic!) for such stagnation. and where else can you buy used cheerleader underwear from vending machines? I wouldn't call that stagnation at all.

6.
Your breathtaking equivocation between wiping out an indigenous population and a controllable rate of immigration leaves nothing more to be said. Are there ANY two distinct things that you are capable of distinguishing? Talk about false dichotomies: EITHER we get wiped out by aggressive invaders OR we shut off all immigration. Sheesh!!!
Ha, ha...….I agree this is an aggressive/controversial position to point out. but what else was the acceptance of Jamestown immigrants by the early Native Americans? Acceptance of diversity will always lead to wiping out the indigenous population when the new arrivals gain enough population to do so. Again, its the nature of our beast. Its why Israel cannot allow the diversity of Arabs living in "Palestine" to be part of their culture. THE GREAT EXCEPTION TO THIS: is America the Melting pot. Welcome all people, seek DIVERSITY: BUT melting pot is the antithesis of diversity. Initial investments can be made only if the ultimate pay back includes homogenization into a single culture. Its the way of our beast.

I could write more, its kinda fun. Playing with the logical and argumentative fallacies and disconnects, but ….. lets stay focused:

"How did the immigration of the Irish make America a better functioning country, short term investment or otherwise?.................
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:52 am

Is Trump, after all, a Keynesian or a socialist? I ask, because he's gone ballistic about the closing of automobile plants in Ohio and Ontario and Michigan. It's certainly an unfortunate development, and it may even be a very unwise business decision. I don't know; I'm not the CEO of an automobile company.

But consider Trump's position. He implies (hell, he says directly) that these plants should operate at a loss in order to provide employment for the workers because the government subsidized them through a tax credit on electric vehicles. (The government also de-subsidized them through a tariff on steel, but let's leave that out of the equation.) He implies/says that GM should be closing plants in China or Mexico instead. So, are the operating decisions of an industry now to be made by the President with a view to the general welfare, rather than by the executives aiming to get a profit for the shareholders? If so, he's asking for a maximum of power with a minimum of investment. Even the Soviet bureaucrats realized that if the government was going to control enterprises, it also had to subsidize them sufficiently to keep them operating. (That, of course, didn't happen, and the USSR collapsed as a result.)
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed Nov 28, 2018 2:40 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:43 am
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:35 am

....didn't you have a signature line that said some people think they are accomplished merely when quoting someone ELSE who was?
Nope, that wasn't me. But if someone else has said something one considers appropriate, quoting is the thing to do. Paraphrasing it amounts to claiming it for oneself, which is not quite honest...
It might be Oleg's signature bobbo's thinking of?


Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:52 am
...are the operating decisions of an industry now to be made by the President with a view to the general welfare...
More likely with a view to future votes. :-P
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Nov 28, 2018 2:40 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:52 am
So, are the operating decisions of an industry now to be made by the President with a view to the general welfare, rather than by the executives aiming to get a profit for the shareholders?
Presidents, including Trump have NO SAY as to how private companies do their business. They do control what private companies the Gubment contracts with, not relevant here.

Politicians...……..don't run anything...……..except their mouths: and only to Keep their Political Power. So....Trump ran on a platform of bringing jobs back to USA. He can't take blame/responsibility for losing jobs, so he blames business executives.

Just look. Blustering foolishness IS what is transparent in Trump's Criminal Family Bidness.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Nov 28, 2018 2:43 pm

Thanks Eggs: correct on both counts. I am "personally" very leery of trying to argue by looking things up on Google. When I find the urge to do that, I try to recognize my opinion if any may not be based on facts but rather other things like general impressions which as we learn from "Adam Ruins Everything" is just about WRONG, on every issue we have been schooled on.

I hate that, but thats the cracker.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Nov 28, 2018 2:47 pm

Adam Ruins Everything in review has show notes on Immigration. Does not go to the issues raised just above. Too bad. I'd like to see a "real" accounting as best as it could be fashioned. Real data...…...not arguments. Its good for the soul.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by gorgeous » Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:10 pm

Obama administration used tear gas at border once a month ...


https://www.washingtontimes.com/.../oba ... order-once...



2 days ago - The same tear-gas agent that the Trump administration is taking heat for deploying against a border mob this weekend is actually used fairly frequently — including more than once a month during the later years of President Barack Obama’s administration, according to Homeland ...
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:17 pm

Trump cheated on his "easy" test when answering Mueller's written questions by having Manafort's lawyer give the answers to his own legal team. :lol:
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