"Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Goody67 » Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:36 pm

VFX wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:55 pm
Before you make any more stupid childish comments from your myopic world view, I strongly suggest you thoroughly study the economic system of the Reich. Of course they were not pure socialists which is where the National part comes in. Come back in a few months after you learn a little about economics.
Do you have anything to post apart from personal insults?

Unlike the RODOH forum, this forum aims to have reasonable discussions with arguments and counterarguments.

I have read many books about the economy of the Third Reich.

Perhaps you can cite some works you have read about the economy of the Third Reich and give examples of the socialism used in the Third Reich.

Oh, the Nazis were "not pure socialists". What do you mean by that? They either were socialists or were not socialists, which is it?
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Goody67 » Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:37 pm

VFX wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:36 pm
I know you are an idiot and so does Friedrich Berg btw. Could you try and keep on topic for a change and try and be less of a very foolish clown.
No one here cares what you or Jew Berg thinks about people. I don't think anyone here regards either of you in a high regard so the feeling is certainly mutual.

Sure, provide some evidence the Nazis were socialists.
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by VFX » Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:40 pm

They were National Socialist or at least a variant of it.

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Goody67 » Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:41 pm

VFX wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:40 pm
They were National Socialist or at least a variant of it.
The name was used for tactical reasons and bared nothing in relation to the economy of the Third Reich.

Do you have any other evidence?
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by VFX » Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:45 pm

Goody67 wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:37 pm
No one here cares what you or Jew Berg thinks about people. I don't think anyone here regards either of you in a high regard so the feeling is certainly mutual.

Sure, provide some evidence the Nazis were socialists.
Please read the literature above on How Herr Hitler aspired to socialist ideals. Repost it here

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Goody67 » Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:49 pm

Hitler's definition of 'socialism' was completely the opposite to the conventional definition of the word.

He said during a speech in 1922:
Whoever is prepared to make the national cause his own to such an extent that he knows no higher ideal than the welfare of the nation; whoever has understood our great national anthem, “Deutschland ueber Alles,” to mean that nothing in the wide world surpasses in his eyes this Germany, people and land — that man is a Socialist.
Similarly, when asked about his definition of socialism, he replied:
Socialism! What does socialism really mean? If people have something to eat and their pleasures, then they have their socialism.
Those two quotes along prove that Hitler had no real understanding of economics, let alone socialism. Thus, Kershaw wrote:
[Hitler] was wholly ignorant of any formal understanding of the principles of economics. For him, as he stated to the industrialists, economics was of secondary importance, entirely subordinated to politics. His crude social-Darwinism dictated his approach to the economy, as it did his entire political “world-view.” Since struggle among nations would be decisive for future survival, Germany’s economy had to be subordinated to the preparation, then carrying out, of this struggle. This meant that liberal ideas of economic competition had to be replaced by the subjection of the economy to the dictates of the national interest. Similarly, any “socialist” ideas in the Nazi programme had to follow the same dictates. Hitler was never a socialist. But although he upheld private property, individual entrepreneurship, and economic competition, and disapproved of trade unions and workers’ interference in the freedom of owners and managers to run their concerns, the state, not the market, would determine the shape of economic development. Capitalism was, therefore, left in place. But in operation it was turned into an adjunct of the state.
Similarly, Evans wrote:
In the climate of postwar counter-revolution, national brooding on the “stab-in-the-back,” and obsession with war profiteers and merchants of the rapidly mushrooming hyperinflation, Hitler concentrated especially on rabble-rousing attacks on “Jewish” merchants who were supposedly pushing up the price of goods: they should all, he said, to shouts of approval from his audiences, be strung up. Perhaps to emphasize this anti-capitalist focus, and to align itself with similar groups in Austria and Czechoslovakia, the party changed its name in February 1920 to the National Socialist German Workers’ Party…. Despite the change of name, however, it would be wrong to see Nazism as a form of, or an outgrowth from, socialism. True, as some have pointed out, its rhetoric was frequently egalitarian, it stressed the need to put common needs above the needs of the individual, and it often declared itself opposed to big business and international finance capital. Famously, too, anti-Semitism was once declared to be “the socialism of fools.” But from the very beginning, Hitler declared himself implacably opposed to Social Democracy and, initially to a much smaller extent, Communism: after all, the “November traitors” who had signed the Armistice and later the Treaty of Versailles were not Communists at all, but the Social Democrats.
Fest wrote about the tactical reason for the name change of the party:
This ideology took a leftist label chiefly for tactical reasons. It demanded, within the party and within the state, a powerful system of rule that would exercise unchallenged leadership over the “great mass of the anonymous.” And whatever premises the party may have started with, by 1930 Hitler’s party was “socialist” only to take advantage of the emotional value of the word, and a “workers’ party” in order to lure the most energetic social force. As with Hitler’s protestations of belief in tradition, in conservative values, or in Christianity, the socialist slogans were merely movable ideological props to serve as camouflage and confuse the enemy.
If the Nazis had been genuine socialists then they would not have arrested socialists in 1933 and murdered some of them. Socialists were included in their definition of political opponents.
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Goody67 » Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:54 pm

VFX wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:45 pm
Please read the literature above on How Herr Hitler aspired to socialist ideals. Repost it here
I've already read it.

The source about Hitler allegedly learning a lot from Marxism is Hermann Rauschning. The authenticity of Rauschning's book Hitler Speaks is disputed.

The statements to Otto Wagener prove nothing. Simply, Hitler was explaining his definition of 'socialism' - the idea that socialism was to be based on the national community known as the Volk rather than international socialism.

Nowhere in any of the article does it provide any evidence that the economy of the Third Reich was socialist.
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by VFX » Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:59 pm

The socialists they arrested were communists, who had taken over Berlin. This was what all the street fighting was about. Those communists were Stalinists. Consider the origins of the party, which was a socialist labour party or the German workers party the same as labour parties world wide. Adding a touch of National pride to to a labour party obviously did the trick. Most governments in the world today are National Socialist and so are most people albeit they fail to recognise themselves as such. Friedrich considers the US to be the same.
Here is a quote from Friedrich
Let us never forget that Hitler saved the world.
Without Hitler, the entire world would have fallen to Stalin and communism within a few years at most from the end of WW2.
FPB

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by VFX » Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:04 pm

Goody67 wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:54 pm
Nowhere in any of the article does it provide any evidence that the economy of the Third Reich was socialist.
They had their own economy which does not rely on Jewish money. This is an entire study in itself and socialism is not just about economy but attitudes. If you are US you would not understand socialism; from what I understand it is a bit of a dirty word there. You may realise that the Russian Federation is working on another monetary system along with European nations so that there is no reliance on the US dollar which is basically a Jewish inspired method of finance. The study of the Reich economy is another venture into itself and it worked.

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:08 pm

. :nuts:
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:12 pm

>> The socialists they arrested were communists, who had taken over Berlin

Tell that to the members of the SPD the Nazis arrested and brutalized.
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:18 pm

VFX wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:04 pm
If you are US you would not understand socialism; from what I understand it is a bit of a dirty word there.
If you think Goody is American, you're more obtuse than I imagined.

Anti-Semitism, you keep convincing us, is the socialism of fools: that is, ersatz socialism.

My confusion in this thread is that Balsamo liked that article. I still can't figure that out. Goody has made good points about how flawed it is. The reliance on Rauschning is indeed problematic - e.g., I will not use his stuff - as is the way he cherrypicks, and basically ignores context, to prove an assumption. As Goody says, the way the author handles the national aspect is highly problematic. The piece read like, "Hey a couple people quoted Hitler saying some stuff that if you really think about it doesn't imply what I'm telling you it does, but I can use it to be provocative." I actually don't think the article is a serious piece of writing - I get why VFX would promote it, but Balsamo's reaction surprised me.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:20 pm

VFX has basically told us that he hasn't read any of the core fascist studies authors I asked him about - and that his ignorance has not stopped him from dismissing them - without knowing their arguments - and Jew-baiting.
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by VFX » Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:29 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:18 pm
VFX wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:04 pm
If you are US you would not understand socialism; from what I understand it is a bit of a dirty word there.
If you think Goody is American, you're more obtuse than I imagined.

Anti-Semitism, you keep convincing us, is the socialism of fools: that is, ersatz socialism.

My confusion in this thread is that Balsamo liked that article. I still can't figure that out. Goody has made good points about how flawed it is. The reliance on Rauschning is indeed problematic - e.g., I will not use his stuff - as is the way he cherrypicks, and basically ignores context, to prove an assumption. As Goody says, the way the author handles the national aspect is highly problematic. I actually don't think the article is a serious piece of writing - I get why VFX would promote it, but Balsamo's reaction surprised me.
You and Goody have biased ingrained attitudes which makes me suspicious of your ethnicity. Try and take an unbiased look at all information. Whether the actions are the same as what was intended are two different things depending also on the viewpoint of the bystander. Perhaps his thinking of socialism is different to how you or others perceive it, perhaps the circumstances of War prevented his socialistic ideals from being expressed by being forced into a corner. It is natural to just consider material that reinforces your ingrained prejudices and apparent hostility: it is noticed by others that most of your quoted books are from Jewish authors. I think Balsamos approach is considered and balanced which is a sign of a great intellect. However, Herr Hitler was the leader of the party and not the party which should have resulted in a civil war in the aftermath of Hummingbird: I am totally surprised the 4 million SA men did not just boot Hitler out.

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:31 pm

>> You and Goody have biased ingrained attitudes which makes me suspicious of your ethnicity.

Really? How so? Why?
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:40 pm

VFX wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:29 pm
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:18 pm
VFX wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:04 pm
If you are US you would not understand socialism; from what I understand it is a bit of a dirty word there.
If you think Goody is American, you're more obtuse than I imagined.

Anti-Semitism, you keep convincing us, is the socialism of fools: that is, ersatz socialism.

My confusion in this thread is that Balsamo liked that article. I still can't figure that out. Goody has made good points about how flawed it is. The reliance on Rauschning is indeed problematic - e.g., I will not use his stuff - as is the way he cherrypicks, and basically ignores context, to prove an assumption. As Goody says, the way the author handles the national aspect is highly problematic. I actually don't think the article is a serious piece of writing - I get why VFX would promote it, but Balsamo's reaction surprised me.
You and Goody have biased ingrained attitudes which makes me suspicious of your ethnicity.
:|

Try and take an unbiased look at all information. Whether the actions are the same as what was intended are two different things depending also on the viewpoint of the bystander. Perhaps his thinking of socialism is different to how you or others perceive it, perhaps the circumstances of War prevented his socialistic ideals from being expressed by being forced into a corner. It is natural to just consider material that reinforces your ingrained prejudices and apparent hostility:
Like you are wont to do?

it is noticed by others that most of your quoted books are from Jewish authors.
Is what ignorant voices (in your head?) are telling a pitifully gullible ignoramus.

I think Balsamos approach is considered and balanced which is a sign of a great intellect.
You're fooling yourself if you believe he'll fall for that piece of cheesy flattery.

However, Herr Hitler was the leader of the party and not the party which should have resulted in a civil war in the aftermath of Hummingbird: I am totally surprised the 4 million SA men did not just boot Hitler out.
I am not surprised.
.
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:42 pm

VFX wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:40 pm
They were National Socialist or at least a variant of it.
Does peach cobbler actually have cobblers in it?
Also, Donald Trump is a clownfraud who only got involved in this for the attention.

Deadspin, 2014:
https://deadspin.com/there-are-just-two ... 1613879544

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by VFX » Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:46 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:42 pm
VFX wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:40 pm
They were National Socialist or at least a variant of it.
Does peach cobbler actually have cobblers in it?
JeffK it amazes me how brilliant you are.
Image

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:58 pm

VFX wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:46 pm
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:42 pm
VFX wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:40 pm
They were National Socialist or at least a variant of it.
Does peach cobbler actually have cobblers in it?
JeffK it amazes me how brilliant you are.
Image
Thanks. Next to you I’m a frickin’ genius.
Also, Donald Trump is a clownfraud who only got involved in this for the attention.

Deadspin, 2014:
https://deadspin.com/there-are-just-two ... 1613879544

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:19 am

Ahem:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:31 pm
>> You and Goody have biased ingrained attitudes which makes me suspicious of your ethnicity.

Really? How so? Why?
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Balmoral95 » Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:26 am

Glad this finally made it to the open forum after all these years. I too have been very suspicious of SM's ethnic background, but didn't want to mention it. I truly believe that he is, in fact a WASP, and not the "probable Jew" he has pretended to be.

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:26 am

LOL you might be on to something!
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:20 am

Michael Mann's 2008 review of Jonah Goldberg's "seminal" book in this vein, Liberal Fascism - "Sticks and Stones":
The only thing these links prove is that fascism contained elements that were in the mainstream of 20th-century politics. Following Goldberg's logic, I could rewrite this book and berate American liberals not for being closet fascists but for being closet conservatives or closet Christian Democrats. But that would puzzle Americans, not shock them. Shock, it seems, sells books. . . . But a final word of advice. If you want to denigrate the Democrats' health care plans or Al Gore's environmental activism, try the word "socialism." That is tried and tested American abuse. "Fascism" will merely baffle Americans -- and rightly so.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by VFX » Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:04 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:58 pm
VFX wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:46 pm
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:42 pm
VFX wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:40 pm
They were National Socialist or at least a variant of it.
Does peach cobbler actually have cobblers in it?
JeffK it amazes me how brilliant you are.
Image
Thanks. Next to you I’m a frickin’ genius.
Yes JeffK of course you are, it is fine outside now run along but watch the traffic on the road before you play hopscotch.

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Balsamo » Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:07 am

VFX:
You and Goody have biased ingrained attitudes which makes me suspicious of your ethnicity.
This is the kind of house Statmec considers as a dream house to spend Xmas!

Image

He can't be a Jew...
He might try to pretend he is a WASP but i don't believe it.
So I ask my friend Dan Brown - yes i know famous people - and after having listened to my analysis, he told me that he might be the last descendant of Santa Klaus... He added that this investigation could be a great job for Bobby Langdon...

The search for Statmec real ethnicity deserves its own thread where would be gathered all the information we could collect.

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by OutOfBreath » Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:38 am

VFX wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:43 pm
Goody67 wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:29 pm
The NSDAP was never socialist.
I think you should read the article Balsomo reposted carefully.
NSDAP....NationalSozialistische Deutsche Arbeiter Partei
NSDAP....National Socialist German Workers Party.

I look forward to reading your rhetoric on the definitions of fascism. Antifa might also learn something.
If it's in the name, it must be true!

Deutsche Demokratische Republik (DDR)
German Democratic Republic

République démocratique du Congo (DRC)
Democratic Republic of Congo

Democratic People's Republic of Korea

All these are of course paragons of democracy, right?
Hint: the 2 that still exists ranks 163 and 167 out of 167 as of 2017...

Peace
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:56 am

Balsamo wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:07 am
VFX:
You and Goody have biased ingrained attitudes which makes me suspicious of your ethnicity.
This is the kind of house Statmec considers as a dream house to spend Xmas!

< snip >

He can't be a Jew...
He might try to pretend he is a WASP but i don't believe it.
So I ask my friend Dan Brown - yes i know famous people - and after having listened to my analysis, he told me that he might be the last descendant of Santa Klaus... He added that this investigation could be a great job for Bobby Langdon...

The search for Statmec real ethnicity deserves its own thread where would be gathered all the information we could collect.
LOL
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Goody67 » Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:10 pm

VFX wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:59 pm
The socialists they arrested were communists, who had taken over Berlin. This was what all the street fighting was about. Those communists were Stalinists.
No, they were socialists. There is a difference between communism and socialism.

Were they really? I wonder where you got that information.
Consider the origins of the party, which was a socialist labour party or the German workers party the same as labour parties world wide. Adding a touch of National pride to to a labour party obviously did the trick.
Many of the socialists were also pan-Germans without considering themselves as Nazis.
Most governments in the world today are National Socialist and so are most people albeit they fail to recognise themselves as such.
There is not a single government in charge of any country today that subscribes to National Socialism.
Friedrich considers the US to be the same.
Here is a quote from Friedrich
Let us never forget that Hitler saved the world.
Without Hitler, the entire world would have fallen to Stalin and communism within a few years at most from the end of WW2.
FPB
No one cares what Jew Berg thinks.

The quote from Jew Berg explains how ignorant he is of Hitler's worldview; Hitler and the Nazis' New Order was much more than just simply anti-communism.

Opportunist Hitler had no problem siding with the communists during a strike in the early 1930s and allowing the Nazi-Soviet Pact in 1939.

I have noticed you are banned, you can fulfill your dream of living in the Fourth Reich on the loony RODOH forum.
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:21 pm

Michael Mann has some noteworthy comments on this topic (he sees fascism as neither right, center nor left - but "ambiguously" on the right, drawing from across the spectrum - nor exactly a third way - more violent, oriented toward cleansing, and focused on creation of a truly "new man"):
. . . Corradini's inversion of these words, as "National Socialism," . . . caught on, though by socialism he really meant syndicalism: "Syndicalism and nationalism together are the doctrines that represent solidarity," he emphasized. Class and sectoral conflict could be harmonized with the help of syndicalist (labor union) organizations coordinated by the "corporate state." So national socialism would be confined within national boundaries, with class struggle transformed into struggle between nations. "Bourgeois nations" (such as Britain and France) exploited "proletarian nations" (such as Italy). To resist, a proletarian nation must fight. . . .

. . . The nation was essentially one and indivisible, a living and breathing entity, defined as either "integral" or "organic." . . . Nations, not classes, were the true masses of modernity. Class conflict between capitalists and workers was not the core problem, [fascists] insisted. Instead the real struggle was between "workers of all classes," "the productive classes," ranged against "unproductive" enemies, usually identified as finance or foreign or Jewish capitalists. . . . The nation would be represented through a corporatist, syndicalist state. . . . Fascist nation-statism would be able to "transcend" social conflict, first repressing those who fomented strife by "knocking both their heads together" and then incorporating classes and other interest groups into state corporatist institutions. . . .

Nonetheless, transcendence was the most problematic and the most variable of fascisms five key [elements]. . . . In practice, most fascist regimes leaned toward the established order and toward capitalism. Fascists lacked a general critique of capitalism (unlike socialists). . . . Nation and state comprised their center of gravity, not class. This alone brought them into conflict with the left rather than the right since Marxists and anarchists, not conservatives, tended to be committed to internationalism. . . . [Fascists] attacked not capitalism per se but only particular types of profit-taking, usually by finance, or by foreign or Jewish capitalists. . . . Though they hoped to subordinate capitalists to their own goals, as authoritarians they believed in managerial powers yet recognized that they themselves lacked the technocratic skills to run industry. Thus they compromised with capitalists. Moreover, the German and especially the Italian fascist coups were aided by upper class support. . . .

Fascists were motivated by a highly emotional struggle to cleanse their nation of "enemies," and so they indulged in reckless aggression and terrible evil. That aggression and evil did not usually benefit them materially. Fascists were too aggressive for their own good. . . . Fascists were driven by both value and instrumental rationality. Eventually, the former predominated and destroyed them. . . .

Fascists tended to come from sectors that were not in the front line of organized struggle between labor and capital. They were less likely to be workers in urban, manufacturing settings. . . . They were less likely to be small or large businessmen or their managers. . . . Their social location was (for the interwar period) relatively secure. But from their slightly removed vantage point they viewed class struggle with distaste, favoring a movement claiming to transcend class struggle. . . . But if we do take fascists' beliefs seriously, then it would follow that fascism would appeal to those viewing class struggle from "outside," declaring "a plague on both your houses!" . . .
Mann, Fascists, pp 6-7, 14-15, 22, 26-27
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:36 pm

An interesting comment which Mann quotes (Fascists, p 166) is relevant to this discussion, I think, the part touching on socialism:
The important thing was not whether someone had money or a title, but whether he contributed to the well-being of his people. Hitler said nationalism and socialism should be identical. The nationalist should be there for every one of his countrymen and socialism must be adapted to the nature of a people. Thus, National Socialism. For us this meant comradeship . . .
With these words a student explains how, when she was taken to a Nazi meeting during her time at the university, she processed the Nazi "offer" to the German people.

Related, Mann quotes (p 179) an explanation of the Nazis' appeal from a German schoolteacher's diary, recording her feeling on attending a Hitler speech:
There was immaculate order and discipline . . . for the man who had drawn 129,000 people of all classes and ages. There stood Hitler in a simple black coat. . . . Out of the parties grow a nation, the German nation. He censured "the system." . . . How many look up to him . . . to him who rescues the Prussian prince, the scholar, the clergyman, the farmer, the worker, the unemployed, who rescues them from the parties back into the nation.
In this understanding of socialism, ownership of the means of production does not change hands, nor do classes disappear: rather, people of different classes bound by nationalism feel and experience comradeship. Behind this (Mann stresses this too) Hitler was accepting capitalist relations, in a strongly authoritarian model (captains of industry, a managerial hierarchy, top-down discipline and order, worker bees) - so long as the capitalists went along with German nationalism as conceived by the National Socialists.
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:40 pm

OK, this is good, I follow this guy on Twitter:

https://www.indy100.com/article/nazi-so ... 4tXMhXrxe8
Also, Donald Trump is a clownfraud who only got involved in this for the attention.

Deadspin, 2014:
https://deadspin.com/there-are-just-two ... 1613879544

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Jan 03, 2019 6:20 am

Tom Palven, the "Libertarian", is making the same claim that Hitler was really a socialist again. Sometimes I think he is Mary Q Contrary as he is so stupid. :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=51&t=29530&p=689878#p689878

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:42 pm

Morons.
Also, Donald Trump is a clownfraud who only got involved in this for the attention.

Deadspin, 2014:
https://deadspin.com/there-are-just-two ... 1613879544

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:44 pm

Looks like they deleted it.
Also, Donald Trump is a clownfraud who only got involved in this for the attention.

Deadspin, 2014:
https://deadspin.com/there-are-just-two ... 1613879544

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:34 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:44 pm
Looks like they deleted it.
https://www.facebook.com/notes/harris-c ... 428306955/

The intent here is to blame something called "the left" - which is a label which the far right and GOP use for right-center Democrats - for "evil," such as the Holocaust. Godwin's meter just broke, btw.
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:15 am

Also, Donald Trump is a clownfraud who only got involved in this for the attention.

Deadspin, 2014:
https://deadspin.com/there-are-just-two ... 1613879544

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Goody67 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:47 am

Despite continuing certain Weimar-era social welfare programs, the Nazis proceeded to restrict their availability to “racially worthy” (non-Jewish) beneficiaries. In terms of labor, worker strikes were outlawed. Trade unions were replaced by the party-controlled German Labor Front, primarily tasked with increasing productivity, not protecting workers. In lieu of the socialist ideal of an egalitarian, worker-run state, the National Socialists erected a party-run police state whose governing structure was anti-democratic, rigidly hierarchical, and militaristic in nature. As to the redistribution of wealth, the socialist ideal “From each according to his ability, to each according to his need” was rejected in favor of a credo more on the order of “Take everything that belongs to non-Aryans and keep it for the master race.”

Above all, the Nazis were German white nationalists. What they stood for was the ascendancy of the “Aryan” race and the German nation, by any means necessary. Despite co-opting the name, some of the rhetoric, and even some of the precepts of socialism, Hitler and party did so with utter cynicism, and with vastly different goals. The claim that the Nazis actually were leftists or socialists in any generally accepted sense of those terms flies in the face of historical reality.
https://www.snopes.com/news/2017/09/05/ ... ocialists/
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:20 pm

Goody67 wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:47 am
Despite continuing certain Weimar-era social welfare programs, the Nazis proceeded to restrict their availability to “racially worthy” (non-Jewish) beneficiaries. In terms of labor, worker strikes were outlawed. Trade unions were replaced by the party-controlled German Labor Front, primarily tasked with increasing productivity, not protecting workers. In lieu of the socialist ideal of an egalitarian, worker-run state, the National Socialists erected a party-run police state whose governing structure was anti-democratic, rigidly hierarchical, and militaristic in nature. As to the redistribution of wealth, the socialist ideal “From each according to his ability, to each according to his need” was rejected in favor of a credo more on the order of “Take everything that belongs to non-Aryans and keep it for the master race.”

Above all, the Nazis were German white nationalists. What they stood for was the ascendancy of the “Aryan” race and the German nation, by any means necessary. Despite co-opting the name, some of the rhetoric, and even some of the precepts of socialism, Hitler and party did so with utter cynicism, and with vastly different goals. The claim that the Nazis actually were leftists or socialists in any generally accepted sense of those terms flies in the face of historical reality.
https://www.snopes.com/news/2017/09/05/ ... ocialists/
People who say this generally have no concept of what National Socialism even was.
Also, Donald Trump is a clownfraud who only got involved in this for the attention.

Deadspin, 2014:
https://deadspin.com/there-are-just-two ... 1613879544

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Goody67 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:41 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:20 pm
People who say this generally have no concept of what National Socialism even was.
Say what?

The two paragraphs refute the argument that the Nazis were socialists.

It should be noted that there were some Nazis who were genuinely socialists and wanted the Nazi Party to be more left-wing.
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:45 pm

Oh Gee Whiz: the "some people" argument?????????????????????????????????????????????????

Rather silly and unproductive to argue about what LABEL to put on anything. But some people enjoy doing nothing else. I suppose because some people respond to it?

Got anything substantive?
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