"Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:22 pm

Part of what strikes me as missing from this discussion is a recognition of the pragmatism and heterogeneity of fascism - and its protean quality. I don’t think one understands a tendency like fascism by focusing on certain elements, this or that policy or where this or that element was picked up from; searching for a fixed or uniform doctrine of fascism doesn't help understanding much. To take the case of Nazism, the movement was not fixated on a single, systematic economic doctrine - views on farm and city, colonialism, gender, welfare provisions, state intervention, big business within the movement were not uniform.

What’s most important is how Nazism framed things. And the core of Nazism, like other fascist movements, was (in Griffin's phrasing) the rebirth of the nation, under charismatic, authoritarian leadership, out of the crisis of the liberal order - and against world socialism. Thus, economic policies that served the nation's rebirth (in the case of the Third Reich these were a mix of state intervention and regulation with private enterprise, by war's end stressing a form of cartelization, reliance on heavy doses of forced labor, and colonial exploitation of conquered countries) were acceptable and these needn't hew to any firm doctrine - so long as the economy was served the nation organically conceived.

Back to the OP, when contemporary right-wingers argue the point that "Nazis were left wing," they aren't making an assessment of the Nazis but attempting to mobilize negative images about Nazism that are widely held and to discredit their opponents by slandering them as Nazis. This back and forth of left and right, labeling each other as "fascist" or "Nazi," relies on popular recognition of the (negative) meme, not exploration of what's under the hood, so to speak.

So this article … much as I hate to agree with anything Balsamo posts I agree with “previous Balsamo,” the one before this last post, the Balsamo who he tried changing the paradigm from left-right :) . . . I think that we’re better served by not trying to place fascism on a traditional left-right spectrum and by thinking instead about fascism as a “third way.” That is, fascism (including Nazism) at its core seeks the revolutionary rebirth of the organic nation. Thats why its “enemies” (obstacles) generally include both liberalism (which valorizes the individual) and the anti-liberal left (with its class based doctrine). Fascism might use the rhetoric of the laborer and the working class, but this is rhetoric which has a very different take to that of socialism and which is really orbiting around the main concept, the nation. On the score of its designated enemies, fascist movements have indeed found tactical points of unity with the right, especially the authoritarian right, more often than with the left - but fascists don’t want the liberal order (or the revolution promised by the world socialist movement), they believe that to solve the crisis of democracy the nation must be renewed - and the nation can only be renewed through a sustained war on behalf of the nation or people against the institutions and ideologies in crisis.

Anyway, the Independent article read to me as retrograde and cherry-picked in failing to get at what I see as the main concept or core dynamic - the offer or pitch or promise that Hitler and his collaborators made to Germans.
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by VFX » Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:26 pm

National Socialism is not fascism. That claim is mere stupid propaganda.

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by VFX » Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:28 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:15 pm
VFX wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:06 pm
Balsamo wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:10 pm
Pyrrho wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:47 am
Removed.
Actually, the article was very good, but i agree that posting the link for those interested would have been enough.
So here it is:
https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-ente ... 6455.html

;)
Thank you Balsomo there is a reason why some wanted this removed. It is excellent and will be reposted elsewhere.
You violated forum rules. Note that Balsamo posted it with no issues.

Pyrrho generally leaves us be until things get heated or people violate the rules.
That was posted months ago you {!#%@}. Censorship actually.

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:29 pm

National Socialism is not Fascism but it is fascism.
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Darren Wilshak » Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:32 pm

Its quite funny how wannabe nazi doesn't even understand his own identity.

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:34 pm

I await his deconstruction of Griffin, Sternhell, Payne, Mosse, Kershaw . . . probably a long time, but I am patient.
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by scrmbldggs » Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:34 pm

VFX wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:28 pm
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:15 pm
VFX wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:06 pm
Balsamo wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:10 pm
Pyrrho wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:47 am
Removed.
Actually, the article was very good, but i agree that posting the link for those interested would have been enough.
So here it is:
https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-ente ... 6455.html

;)
Thank you Balsomo there is a reason why some wanted this removed. It is excellent and will be reposted elsewhere.
You violated forum rules. Note that Balsamo posted it with no issues.

Pyrrho generally leaves us be until things get heated or people violate the rules.
That was posted months ago you {!#%@}. Censorship actually.
It seems that action makes the user feel important, but how important can s/he be if no one read that post until now? :lol:
.
Lard, save me from your followers.

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:37 pm

VFX wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:28 pm
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:15 pm
VFX wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:06 pm
Balsamo wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:10 pm
Pyrrho wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:47 am
Removed.
Actually, the article was very good, but i agree that posting the link for those interested would have been enough.
So here it is:
https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-ente ... 6455.html

;)
Thank you Balsomo there is a reason why some wanted this removed. It is excellent and will be reposted elsewhere.
You violated forum rules. Note that Balsamo posted it with no issues.

Pyrrho generally leaves us be until things get heated or people violate the rules.
That was posted months ago you {!#%@}. Censorship actually.
Am I getting on your nerves? Good, I thought I was losing my touch.

It doesn’t matter, if Pyrrho finds it he warns and then removes. Balsamo posted the exact same thing only he posted a link.

Pyrrho doesn’t care what you believe in, he wants us to follow the rules.
Also, Donald Trump is a clownfraud who only got involved in this for the attention.

Deadspin, 2014:
https://deadspin.com/there-are-just-two ... 1613879544

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:37 pm

And I looked at it again, because of the "censorship." LOL
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Balsamo » Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:21 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:02 pm
I thought it was terrible and really misunderstands fascism. I'm surprised you liked it, in fact. Oh well, go figure!
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I had no time to make a critical essay about it neither... ;)
What i actually meant is that Georges Watson is no Faurisson, but actually a distinguish Australian scholar from Cambridge University. Now beside that he was a member of the Whigs Party, and not very keen on socialism.
But his comparison stays in the correct time frame, which is socialism as it was perceived in the early 1920's, which is something very different from Social democracy we know today.
But even then, those democratic socialist movements had more or less the same radical program, with the honorable difference from their Russian colleagues, is that they agreed that their reform would have to wait for a clear electoral victory.

Now from memory, he made some substantial mistakes, like stating that socialism was the mother of all genocide, (then he is a scholar in English literature, IRCC...yes like Faurisson :lol: ), and the quite usual one consisting at resuming the NSDAP to the sole person of Hitler (which will only be true after 1934).

This article is not about fascism, and it is a mistake to regroup all those "fascist-like, populist, third way " political movements into the same label of fascism.

As I said, the time frame of the period is very well defined, that is 1920-1926, or we could go to 1931 at best, during which there was a real socialist revolutionary wing within the NSDAP. They were just anti-Marxist, as those "nazi-socialist" rejected any form of "internationalism", they conceived a socialism adapted to a specific culture, in this case German, within a Volkich persepective if you like, as the only one viable, when Marx defined the Proletariat as a "people without frontiers" so to speak. And of course, to follow instruction from Moscow, as did the Spartakists, was high treason.
Now the party was already Antisemitic, but Strasser had a more political Antisemitism, which was based on the perceived Jewish influence in Bolshevism - the main leaders of the Spartakist movement in the 20's included Jews - and the Jewish influence on the international scene (World Jewish Congress) as well as in international finance. The two last being still present, as a form of Antisemitism, in many European far-left political movements today, by the way.
I personally do not remember any reference to racial consideration in Strasser's writings and speech (but i could have missed some as all this was a pretty long time ago), but then again, Eugenism will be a distinctive aspect of Hitlerism, which is not to be found in other "fascist" regimes.

But then, as i said, and it is THE flaw of Watson article, Hitler himself was no socialist at all, while part of the NSDAP once was.

Not much more time now than before, but yes, i still maintain that to include all the pre-war "fascist" and "far right" movements into "variances of Nazism" (or is it the other way round??) as it was done after the war has more political reasons than scientific grounds.

The move allowed post war democrats and democracies to breathe for a while, silencing the far right after 150 years of struggle, but today, it is striking back. And it is obvious that it is not Nazism and racial and eugenic theories that are striking back, but this centuries old populist conservatism which each has its specificity.

I should have added that this article was a "good read" instead of calling it a "good article", both terms in my mind sometimes means the same, a good read, because Watson was from those older generations of scholar which by itself is very informative. But then, i felt generous as it was the first (and last?) interesting contribution from VFX (yes, i know, i have a very indulgent nature)
;)
Last edited by Balsamo on Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Goody67 » Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:26 pm

VFX wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:26 pm
National Socialism is not fascism. That claim is mere stupid propaganda.
You quite clearly have no idea about Nazism. Of course Nazism was a variant of fascism. Not all fascists were Nazis but all Nazis were fascists. Fascism was a key idea of Nazism.

Hitler considered Nazism to be the German form of fascism.

As the Wikipedia article about Nazism states:
Fascism was a major influence on Nazism. The seizure of power by Italian Fascist leader Benito Mussolini in the March on Rome in 1922 drew admiration by Hitler, who less than a month later had begun to model himself and the Nazi Party upon Mussolini and the Fascists. Hitler presented the Nazis as a form of German fascism. In November 1923, the Nazis attempted a "March on Berlin" modelled after the March on Rome, which resulted in the failed Beer Hall Putsch in Munich.

Hitler spoke of Nazism being indebted to the success of Fascism's rise to power in Italy. In a private conversation in 1941, Hitler said that "the brown shirt would probably not have existed without the black shirt", the "brown shirt" referring to the Nazi militia and the "black shirt" referring to the Fascist militia. He also said in regards to the 1920s: "If Mussolini had been outdistanced by Marxism, I don't know whether we could have succeeded in holding out. At that period National Socialism was a very fragile growth".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism#Re ... an_Fascism

Haha at you trying to claim that the Nazis were not fascists. What were they? Marxists? Liberals?
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Goody67 » Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:29 pm

Balsamo wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:21 pm
But then, as i said, and it is THE flaw of Watson article, Hitler himself was no socialist at all, while part of the NSDAP once was.
The NSDAP was never socialist. The name change was at the reluctance of Hitler but he knew that the change was necessary in order to gain more votes.

I think it's more correct to say that some Nazis were initially socialists but they later changed their views once they became Nazis. The same way that Mussolini was initially a Marxist and later became a fascist.

Goebbels in the early 1920s declared himself to be a German communist, I don't think he was thinking the same once the Nazis started attacking the communists.
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Balsamo » Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:31 pm

Goody
You quite clearly have no idea about Nazism. Of course Nazism was a variant of fascism. Not all fascists were Nazis but all Nazis were fascists. Fascism was a key idea of Nazism.
:lol: :lol:
Well the welcome to the club of those who try to give a proper definition of "fascism"...
And be ready for lengthy discussion as every members have one. ;)

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by VFX » Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:43 pm

Goody67 wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:29 pm
The NSDAP was never socialist.
I think you should read the article Balsomo reposted carefully.
NSDAP....NationalSozialistische Deutsche Arbeiter Partei
NSDAP....National Socialist German Workers Party.

I look forward to reading your rhetoric on the definitions of fascism. Antifa might also learn something.

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:22 pm

Balsamo wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:21 pm
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:02 pm
I thought it was terrible and really misunderstands fascism. I'm surprised you liked it, in fact. Oh well, go figure!
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: . . .This article is not about fascism, and it is a mistake to regroup all those "fascist-like, populist, third way " political movements into the same label of fascism.
No, but it is about Hitler's political and economic influences and thinking, and that's where I fault it. I wouldn't say it works in the time context either, as the time context was the rise of European fascism, which IMO is a better way to think about Hitler and the Nazis than cherrypicking similarities (or dissimilarities) to socialism.
Balsamo wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:21 pm
Not much more time now than before, but yes, i still maintain that to include all the pre-war "fascist" and "far right" movements into "variances of Nazism" (or is it the other way round??) as it was done after the war has more political reasons than scientific grounds.
If we take Griffin, he makes very clear that his Weberian ideal of fascism is not modeled on any particular fascist movement - he says explicitly that it is a common error to see the Nazis as a template - but rather his ideal is derived from the ideological or mythic core all fascisms share. Also equating the right wing or the authoritarian right to fascism is not sound, I've argued this a number of times in the forum (I think! - that's part of what I posted above about tactical alliances in fact). Griffin's perspective is the one that I am taking, too, so, no, I would not include all far right movements as fascist nor would I think of fascism as variations on Nazism. I mean, my understanding is that Fascism was the first successful fascist movement and was in no way a copy of a German fascism.
Balsamo wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:21 pm
But then, i felt generous as it was the first (and last?) interesting contribution from VFX (yes, i know, i have a very indulgent nature)
;)
LOL, I have yet to see one from VFX. Glad to see we are not aligned on this! :)
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:25 pm

VFX silent about Griffin, Sternhell, Payne, Mosse, Kershaw . . . quelle surprise!
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by VFX » Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:09 pm

I am not interested in the neofascist ideas postulated by Roger Griffin. George Lachmann Mosse ,Jude who thinks he knows something of the Reich but with very much tinted glasses. Mosse was born in Berlin to a prominent, well-to-do German Jewish family. There is no way that any of his works could be considered unbiased as it was he and his ilk that Herr Hitler decided to evict from the country. The Mosse family wisely took the hint and emigrated from Deutschland to England while his family split up and went all over the place.
While he was at Cambridge, his hostility to fascism was deepened by the Spanish Civil War (although he later averred that he had only a superficial understanding of the conflict).https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Mosse To me his works will not be read due to the fact that he has deeply ingrained prejudices. His total works should be discounted for what they are, the painful experiences of a broken Jewish man.

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:30 pm

VFX wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:09 pm
I am not interested in the neofascist ideas postulated by Roger Griffin.
What does this mean? Griffin is a political scientist who studies generic fascism, not someone who "postulates" neofascist ideas. Frankly, it appears that you are unable to engage with the people who work in this field, which I respect.
VFX wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:09 pm
I George Lachmann Mosse ,Jude
What does this have to do with anything? Why call attention to Mosse's being a "Jude," but say nothing about Griffin's background? Please explain.
VFX wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:09 pm
Mosse was born in Berlin to a prominent, well-to-do German Jewish family.
Why are you repeating this detail? What does his being born to "a prominent, well-to-do German Jewish family" have to do with his approach to understanding fascism?
VFX wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:09 pm
There is no way that any of his works could be considered unbiased as it was he and his ilk that Herr Hitler decided to evict from the country. The Mosse family wisely took the hint and emigrated from Deutschland to England while his family split up and went all over the place.
Again, what does this tell us about Mosse's approach to studying fascism, how he went about this study, and what he concluded? Basically you're saying, "Mosse was a German Jew, I don't know what he wrote or concluded." Which, again, is your prerogative. But it is not what I asked you. I asked you to give us a "deconstruction of Griffin, Sternhell, Payne, Mosse, Kershaw" on fascism, not their biographies.
VFX wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:09 pm
While he was at Cambridge, his hostility to fascism was deepened by the Spanish Civil War (although he later averred that he had only a superficial understanding of the conflict).https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Mosse To me his works will not be read due to the fact that he has deeply ingrained prejudices.
Please show us where and how his approach and conclusions reflect deeply ingrained prejudices.
VFX wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:09 pm
His total works should be discounted for what they are, the painful experiences of a broken Jewish man.
A broken Jewish man, who had an outstanding academic and scholarly career? Strange.

Are you quoting Wikipedia because you don't have a clue about Mosse?

As a reminder, many of those who have studied, with great value, the Stalinist dictatorship were strong anti-communists, some deeply affected by experiences with communism. Should all such works be rejected on account of "ingrained prejudice"?

Have you read anything by Mosse or Griffin - or do you simply dismiss them because one is a Jew and the other you don't have a clue about? Have you read Sternhell, Kershaw, or Payne? Have you sussed out which ones are Jews?
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Balsamo » Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:55 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:22 pm
Balsamo wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:21 pm
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:02 pm
I thought it was terrible and really misunderstands fascism. I'm surprised you liked it, in fact. Oh well, go figure!
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: . . .This article is not about fascism, and it is a mistake to regroup all those "fascist-like, populist, third way " political movements into the same label of fascism.
No, but it is about Hitler's political and economic influences and thinking, and that's where I fault it. I wouldn't say it works in the time context either, as the time context was the rise of European fascism, which IMO is a better way to think about Hitler and the Nazis than cherrypicking similarities (or dissimilarities) to socialism.
Balsamo wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:21 pm
Not much more time now than before, but yes, i still maintain that to include all the pre-war "fascist" and "far right" movements into "variances of Nazism" (or is it the other way round??) as it was done after the war has more political reasons than scientific grounds.
If we take Griffin, he makes very clear that his Weberian ideal of fascism is not modeled on any particular fascist movement - he says explicitly that it is a common error to see the Nazis as a template - but rather his ideal is derived from the ideological or mythic core all fascisms share. Also equating the right wing or the authoritarian right to fascism is not sound, I've argued this a number of times in the forum (I think! - that's part of what I posted above about tactical alliances in fact). Griffin's perspective is the one that I am taking, too, so, no, I would not include all far right movements as fascist nor would I think of fascism as variations on Nazism. I mean, my understanding is that Fascism was the first successful fascist movement and was in no way a copy of a German fascism.
Balsamo wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:21 pm
But then, i felt generous as it was the first (and last?) interesting contribution from VFX (yes, i know, i have a very indulgent nature)
;)
LOL, I have yet to see one from VFX. Glad to see we are not aligned on this! :)
Yes, but then you wrote that Watson in this specific article, i quote:
... was terrible and really misunderstands fascism...
When i all remarked was that the article was not about "Fascism".

That being said, we are entitled not to agree on fascism, like the rest of the bunch who are interested in it. ;)
I know we had some discussion about it before. And actually, i am interested in all interpretation and theories even if it does not really help to get a definitive definition. But i do not think that it is Historians job to provide anything "definitive".
But the tendency today is to hide behind concept like "populism" which basically means...nothing, at least to me.

Anyway, my last post was exclusively on Watson article, and as i said, there a very bad points and even mistakes and misconceptions, but also some good reminder that there was this period when the NSDAP was a movement which existed outside the Fuhrer influence. Not for long, and not during a decisive period of time, but this period existed, a small `period when there was even a "dissidence" from the attitude of the "Fuehrer", too close to the economic circles for his left. It is said - according to Gregor Strasser brother Otto - that Goebbels during a meeting at the end of 1925 (or early 1926) proposed a vote to exclude Hitler from the movement.
As i said, it is a very interesting period to study in a very historical perspective, but it has no incidence on the bigger picture as all those events took place when the NSDAP was scoring a mere 3% in national election.
It is nevertheless interesting in the perspective of evolution of political ideology. For example, what would have happened if Hitler would have had to serve his time, that is the full 5 years?
Would have had been able to regain full control after this time? etc.
But then, as the real history goes, he was freed after one years, regained control, and in fine had his left wing back in line or executed. Those are fact. Gregor Strasser was executed although he withdrew from political activities...i guess to make a clean sweep as the Nazis used to say...

Now, that Watson extrapolates this specific period and turns it into a historical continuity is his main flaw as i said. More than a flaw actually, a clear misconception. I don't think we do disagree on that.

I will reserve my response to your more substantial post for later.
Again, you'll see disagreement on details...

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:00 am

Balsamo wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:55 am
When i all remarked was that the article was not about "Fascism".
But again, he explains Hitler not in terms of fascism, which makes sense of Hitler, and which is a better context in which to evaluate the range of his views. IMO. That's my point. But I was commenting more broadly than on just the article in my longer post.
Balsamo wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:55 am
But i do not think that it is Historians job to provide anything "definitive".
But the tendency today is to hide behind concept like "populism" which basically means...nothing, at least to me.
Who? What?
Balsamo wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:55 am
Anyway, my last post was exclusively on Watson article, and as i said, there a very bad points and even mistakes and misconceptions, but also some good reminder that there was this period when the NSDAP was a movement which existed outside the Fuhrer influence. < snip >
I'm not disagreeing - in fact, I said that the Nazi movement was far from doctrinal and described the movement as protean (IIRC). Economics is one of the least programmatic, most pragmatic areas of Nazism. Where it settled out, IMO, is not where Watson's piece would have one believe: "The one and only problem of the age, he told Wagener, was to liberate labour and replace the rule of capital over labour with the rule of labour over capital." Naw. This was not Hitler's core pitch to Germans. Without even getting to the slave labor program ...
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by VFX » Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:46 am

Balsamo wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:55 am

As i said, it is a very interesting period to study in a very historical perspective, but it has no incidence on the bigger picture as all those events took place when the NSDAP was scoring a mere 3% in national election.
It is nevertheless interesting in the perspective of evolution of political ideology. For example, what would have happened if Hitler would have had to serve his time, that is the full 5 years?
Would have had been able to regain full control after this time? etc.
But then, as the real history goes, he was freed after one years, regained control, and in fine had his left wing back in line or executed. Those are fact. Gregor Strasser was executed although he withdrew from political activities...i guess to make a clean sweep as the Nazis used to say...

Now, that Watson extrapolates this specific period and turns it into a historical continuity is his main flaw as i said. More than a flaw actually, a clear misconception. I don't think we do disagree on that.

I will reserve my response to your more substantial post for later.
Again, you'll see disagreement on details...
Your analysis is 100% correct, though we are basically Strasserists. Thank you again for your timely and very informed discourse.

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:25 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:37 pm
VFX wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:28 pm
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:15 pm
VFX wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:06 pm
Balsamo wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:10 pm
Pyrrho wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:47 am
Removed.
Actually, the article was very good, but i agree that posting the link for those interested would have been enough.
So here it is:
https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-ente ... 6455.html

;)
Thank you Balsomo there is a reason why some wanted this removed. It is excellent and will be reposted elsewhere.
You violated forum rules. Note that Balsamo posted it with no issues.

Pyrrho generally leaves us be until things get heated or people violate the rules.
That was posted months ago you {!#%@}. Censorship actually.
Am I getting on your nerves? Good, I thought I was losing my touch.

It doesn’t matter, if Pyrrho finds it he warns and then removes. Balsamo posted the exact same thing only he posted a link.

Pyrrho doesn’t care what you believe in, he wants us to follow the rules.
About which the (polite) member was informed early on here, long before s/he committed the (politely) willful and actionable infringement. And later, upon a reminder at yet another incident, (politely) boasted "I will cut and paste what the hell I want.". :pardon:
.
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:29 am

scrmbldggs wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:25 am
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:37 pm
VFX wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:28 pm
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:15 pm
VFX wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:06 pm
Balsamo wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:10 pm
Pyrrho wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:47 am
Removed.
Actually, the article was very good, but i agree that posting the link for those interested would have been enough.
So here it is:
https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-ente ... 6455.html

;)
Thank you Balsomo there is a reason why some wanted this removed. It is excellent and will be reposted elsewhere.
You violated forum rules. Note that Balsamo posted it with no issues.

Pyrrho generally leaves us be until things get heated or people violate the rules.
That was posted months ago you {!#%@}. Censorship actually.
Am I getting on your nerves? Good, I thought I was losing my touch.

It doesn’t matter, if Pyrrho finds it he warns and then removes. Balsamo posted the exact same thing only he posted a link.

Pyrrho doesn’t care what you believe in, he wants us to follow the rules.
About which the (polite) member was informed early on here, long before s/he committed the (politely) willful and actionable infringement. And later, upon a reminder at yet another incident, (politely) boasted "I will cut and paste what the hell I want.". :pardon:
Well, you know these Nazi types. They think the rules don’t apply to them.
Also, Donald Trump is a clownfraud who only got involved in this for the attention.

Deadspin, 2014:
https://deadspin.com/there-are-just-two ... 1613879544

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Goody67 » Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:38 pm

VFX wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:43 pm
I think you should read the article Balsomo reposted carefully.
NSDAP....NationalSozialistische Deutsche Arbeiter Partei
NSDAP....National Socialist German Workers Party.

I look forward to reading your rhetoric on the definitions of fascism. Antifa might also learn something.
The Nazis changed the party's name to include 'Socialist' in order to gain more votes.

If I call myself a flying saucer, am I a flying saucer? :roll:

Look at the economy of the Third Reich, the Nazis were not socialists.
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:05 pm

Goody67 wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:38 pm
Look at the economy of the Third Reich, the Nazis were not socialists.
And Hitler was not about liberating labor and replacing the rule of capital over labor with that of labor over capital.

But ... Mosse was a Jew, so all's well.
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:50 pm

Griffin makes the point that the Nazis developed "an obsession with racial determinism" that made the leadership "unlikely to show the pragmatism" needed for long-term survival. Nation and race were not incidentals or mere "adjustments" for Hitler and the Nazis: they were core constituents of their world-view.
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:05 pm

VFX on fascist studies:

method: Wikipedia
conclusion: "Jude"
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Goody67 » Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:44 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:05 pm
VFX on fascist studies:

method: Wikipedia
conclusion: "Jude"
You forgot "stupid fake books". :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

It's always funny to see him raging against sources when he hasn't even read any of them.
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by VFX » Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:48 pm

Goody67 wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:38 pm
VFX wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:43 pm
I think you should read the article Balsomo reposted carefully.
NSDAP....NationalSozialistische Deutsche Arbeiter Partei
NSDAP....National Socialist German Workers Party.

I look forward to reading your rhetoric on the definitions of fascism. Antifa might also learn something.
The Nazis changed the party's name to include 'Socialist' in order to gain more votes.

If I call myself a flying saucer, am I a flying saucer? :roll:

Look at the economy of the Third Reich, the Nazis were not socialists.
If you call yourself an idiot are you and idiot?

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by VFX » Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:52 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:50 pm
Griffin makes the point that the Nazis developed "an obsession with racial determinism" that made the leadership "unlikely to show the pragmatism" needed for long-term survival. Nation and race were not incidentals or mere "adjustments" for Hitler and the Nazis: they were core constituents of their world-view.
You are quoting information from a very biased person who has every reason to feel disdain for the Reich. Get a more credible source than this Jew.

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by VFX » Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:55 pm

Goody67 wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:38 pm


Look at the economy of the Third Reich, the Nazis were not socialists.
Before you make any more stupid childish comments from your myopic world view, I strongly suggest you thoroughly study the economic system of the Reich. Of course they were not pure socialists which is where the National part comes in. Come back in a few months after you learn a little about economics.

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:56 pm

VFX wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:52 pm
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:50 pm
Griffin makes the point that the Nazis developed "an obsession with racial determinism" that made the leadership "unlikely to show the pragmatism" needed for long-term survival. Nation and race were not incidentals or mere "adjustments" for Hitler and the Nazis: they were core constituents of their world-view.
You are quoting information from a very biased person who has every reason to feel disdain for the Reich. Get a more credible source than this Jew.
Have you read Griffin’s works? Which ones? What is the issue you take with his approach?
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:58 pm

>> If you call yourself an idiot are you and idiot?

Can you please try to raise your game to the level of minimal participation if you insist on continuing? A very large majority of your comments would not be out of place in a daycare center or on a Reddit subforum. Here we try having serious discussions in which we make arguments and counter arguments, which is a skill you seem not to have or wish to keep secret.

Hint: “he is a Jew” is not an argument but surprisingly simple bigotry.

Which raises a question: are you here only to disrupt and lower the level of discussion or do you have some other purpose in mind?
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:59 pm

Goody67 wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:44 pm
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:05 pm
VFX on fascist studies:

method: Wikipedia
conclusion: "Jude"
You forgot "stupid fake books". :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

It's always funny to see him raging against sources when he hasn't even read any of them.
“Stupid fake Jewish books” then
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by VFX » Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:03 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:58 pm
>> If you call yourself an idiot are you and idiot?

Can you please try to raise your game to the level of minimal participation if you insist on continuing? A very large majority of your comments would not be out of place in a daycare center or on a Reddit subforum. Here we try having serious discussions in which we make arguments and counter arguments, which is a skill you seem not to have or wish to keep secret.

Hint: “he is a Jew” is not an argument but surprisingly simple bigotry.

Which raises a question: are you here only to disrupt and lower the level of discussion or do you have some other purpose in mind?
The fact that this author is a Jew who was more or less forced to leave the Reich makes all of his works highly suspect. This in no way is some independent thinker but a person with a huge grudge. Even you with your intellectual limitations should realize this. On any other topic except the Reich this man may be credible but not on an issue which he has been scarred from.
With you here the level of discussion is at its lowest as you cannot debate anything without sarcasm and personal attacks which is why you are no longer welcome at RODOH.

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:14 pm

Griffin, who you above said was a biased Jew, and about whom I replied, was not a Jew forced to leave the Reich. He is a British academic and I have no idea what his religion is. You seem to have gone back to Mosse without realizing it, but you never answered either my question about the substance of what Mosse argues or about whether Solzhenitsyn, Brodsky, Medvedev, Sakharov and others who wrote on Stalinism are similarly disqualified as biased because the regime attacked them.

Unlike your racist caricature, Mosse and other scholars are more than able to study social phenomena to try understanding them, no matter their personal status, and have demonstrated this in their works. Your continued determination to shout “bias” without demonstrating it speaks poorly for your claim.

Btw your argument implicitly recognizes that the Nazi regime was anti-Semitic. Progress.

Let’s make this simpler for you: Which works of Mosse and Griffin have you read? Which works by Payne and Sternhell? Kershaw?
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:29 pm

Here’s something funny: “this Jew” Griffin cites Metapedia’s definition of interwar fascism as corroborating both his method and his focus on the core role of the palingenetic myth.

Which also a metaphor for the futile absurdity of VFX’s {!#%@}-posting and {!#%@}-life: people like Griffin (and me) read Metapedia, clowns like VFX clearly doesn’t read the texts which he denounces as Jewish or lying propaganda.
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:04 pm

It seems that the questions I asked VFX (viewtopic.php?f=39&t=29558&start=80#p670870) are too difficult for him.
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Goody67 » Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:32 pm

VFX wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:48 pm
If you call yourself an idiot are you and idiot?
:D :D :D
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by VFX » Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:36 pm

Goody67 wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:32 pm


:D :D :D
I know you are an idiot and so does Friedrich Berg btw. Could you try and keep on topic for a change and try and be less of a very foolish clown.