Murder by gun.

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Murder by gun.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:16 am

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... death_rate

The reference above shows how many people are killed by firearms in various countries. The list below is in order, and refers only to the number of people MURDERED by firearm, per 100,000 of the population per year. I have listed those nations I consider to be first world, and not third world.

USA 3.6
Israel 1.04
Greece 0.53
Canada 0.38
Italy 0.35
Belgium 0.33
Finland 0.32
Netherlands 0.29
Ireland 0.25
Denmark 0.22
France 0.21
Switzerland 0.21
Sweden 0.19
Australia 0.16
Spain 0.15
New Zealand 0.11
Hungary 0.11
Norway 0.10
Austria 0.10
Germany 0.07
UK 0.06
Singapore 0.02
Luxembourg 0.00
Hong Kong 0.00
Japan 0.00
Iceland 0.00

We all know that this is a multifactorial variable. But it is clear to me that the biggest difference is simply gun control. The USA is way out ahead of everyone else, and this seems to be simply due to seriously lacking gun control. Israel is next, and we all know what a violent place that is, and why. Yet it is less than a third of the USA. Canada is high, probably because its proximity to the USA permits easy access to guns. Greece is a poor country, meaning strong temptation to revert to crime.

I do not know why Italy, Belgium, and the Netherlands are a little bit high. Finland has a lot of guns relative to other nations, and Ireland may still be getting over its violent past. But look at the nations with strongest gun control. Singapore, Iceland, Japan and Hong Kong.

It will be very difficult for the advocates for easy access to guns to explain away the fact that the USA has such a massively greater rate of gun homicides compared to other developed nations, except by referring to the lack of gun control.

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Re: Murder by gun.

Post by Aztexan » Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:23 am

Lance, as long as there are white supremacist morons and wannabe dictators in the white house...something about watering the tree of liberty with the blood of tyrants is all I can think of.

My guns ain't going nowhere.
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Re: Murder by gun.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:36 am

Aztexan

That is an emotional stance, not a rational one.

The reason I say this is because there hasve been several studies into national attempts to topple tyrants. A very clear cut result of those studies is that armed resistance just makes matters worse. Just look at Syria!!!

The most successful resistance movements have been peaceful. Think Martin Luther King. Think Mahatma Gandhi. Nelson Mandela is a person who tried both - the violent way and the way of peace. His violent years caused matters to get worse. Only after he embraced non violence did he succeed in his quest.

If you and the many millions of Americans who think violence is the way to keep tyranny at bay continue in that practice, the result will be many more unnecessary deaths and mayhem. Non violent resistance is by far the best way to resist a tyrant. Put your guns away before you hurt someone.

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Re: Murder by gun.

Post by Aztexan » Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:57 am

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Re: Murder by gun.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:16 am

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... techniques

You missed the point, Aztexan. It is not whether there is need to resist a tyrant. The point is about the BEST way to resist. And that is non violently. Resistance by taking up the gun simply makes things worse and causes enormous suffering and death.

The belief that you need guns in case of tyranny is a non rational belief, because the data shows very clearly that using the gun is counter productive.

https://www.quora.com/If-the-American-g ... -be-better

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Re: Murder by gun.

Post by Aztexan » Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:28 am

I don't have to tell you what happened to Dr. King and his method of non-violence.
It's gonna get ugly here. That's what they want.
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Re: Murder by gun.

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:24 am

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Re: Murder by gun.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:45 am

Aztexan wrote:I don't have to tell you what happened to Dr. King and his method of non-violence.
It's gonna get ugly here. That's what they want.
No one said there would be no sacrifice involved. The movers and shakers of society, who achieve great things, are often targets by the arseholes of society. Mahatma Gandhi was also assassinated. But if someone wants to make a better world, and has the courage of his/her convictions, then he/she has to take that risk. Overall, non violence has a much, much greater success rate, and carries a far lower cost. There are civil wars in Africa started by those who wanted to overthrow tyrants, which continue decades later and after millions died.

The real criminals in social change are those who revert to violence, and cause megadeaths.

Gawdzilla.
Thank you for your reference. Very enlightening. Now can you get the gun nutters to read it?

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Re: Murder by gun.

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:59 am

I'd like to get everybody who thinks more guns is a solution to anything into a big bar, Texas Stadium perhaps. Everybody gets about four beers in them. Everybody's packing.

Then somebody would yell "GUN!"
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Re: Murder by gun.

Post by Aztexan » Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:46 pm

That will never happen. Texas Stadium was demolished years ago.
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Re: Murder by gun.

Post by Aztexan » Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:47 pm

I'm not for 'more guns'.
I just don't feel like giving mine up at the moment.
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Re: Murder by gun.

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:57 pm

Aztexan wrote:That will never happen. Texas Stadium was demolished years ago.
Shot to pieces? :lol:

With over two hundred million guns in the US we really don't need more.
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Re: Murder by gun.

Post by Aztexan » Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:35 pm

Actually, it's in heaven with jesus and the angels.
RIP, Texas Stadium
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Re: Murder by gun.

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:18 pm

Aztexan wrote:Actually, it's in heaven with jesus and the angels.
RIP, Texas Stadium
Did it take all the cow patties with it?
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Re: Murder by gun.

Post by JO 753 » Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:50 pm

If sumwun ever invents a practical fors shield, sumthing you coud put in your pocket or clip on your belt, gunz woud be obsolete.
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Re: Murder by gun.

Post by Aztexan » Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:13 pm

Guns don't kill people, bullets ricocheting off of Force Shields kill people
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Re: Murder by gun.

Post by Aztexan » Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:16 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Aztexan wrote:Actually, it's in heaven with jesus and the angels.
RIP, Texas Stadium
Did it take all the cow patties with it?
They didn't survive the moove
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Re: Murder by gun.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:01 pm

Aztexan wrote:Lance, as long as there are white supremacist morons and wannabe dictators in the white house...something about watering the tree of liberty with the blood of tyrants is all I can think of.

My guns ain't going nowhere.
You having guns will prevent................what?

Answer: nothing.

So, what you are operating on is the fantasy that you can go out in a hail of bullets. Not a sound basis for any social policy..................but, atleast you do admit it.
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Re: Murder by gun.

Post by Aztexan » Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:22 pm

I'm not a nutter. I don't carry, concealed or otherwise. I just feel safer knowing I am better prepared for that just in case moment. I don't have a gun fetish. I just own some. If the government tries to {!#%@} with me, they'll win. But if can take a few of those {!#%@} with me if they decide to. But seriously, I am a parent so you won't read any stories about me doing something stupid, like taking up arms against the government. But now that we have dangerous, racist, treasonous, incompetent, dictatorial-style idiots running the show, I think I'll hang on to ol' Maggie (that's my rifle's name) you know, just in case.
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Re: Murder by gun.

Post by Aztexan » Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:24 pm

And I agree with Lance when he says the very act of owning a gun increases accidental death. A little education goes a long way in preventing unnecessary discharge.
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Re: Murder by gun.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:19 pm

Aztexan: I'm with you part way. Fun to think "we" being informed are not subject to the statistics....and its even "true". Just make sure you conduct your affairs so that you stay out of the statistical (uniformed) group.

I do hate any false sense of bravado though. It inhibits if not more usually prevents taking the steps that would actually work................
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Re: Murder by gun.

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:21 pm

Aztexan wrote:And I agree with Lance when he says the very act of owning a gun increases accidental death. A little education goes a long way in preventing unnecessary discharge.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24054955
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Re: Murder by gun.

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:23 pm

I've been an owner and shooter since 1965. I own a fully operational Browning M2 .50 cal. heavy machine gun and a couple of hand guns. I am NOT coming for anyone's guns, but I think the 3% who own 1/2 of the 254,000,000 guns in the country are a potential problem of no small concern.
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Re: Murder by gun.

Post by Io » Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:36 am

Guns are bad.

People who use guns are probably bad.

Guns that shoot people who use guns are magic.

People who use guns to shoot people who use guns might be the police.

People who use people who use guns to shoot people who use guns are the police.

People who... er...
Hmm. What did I come in here for?

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Re: Murder by gun.

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:47 am

Way to dumb it down. I have owned "a lot of guns". I've been an owner and shooter since 1965. I've killed a lot of people. I still own a fully functional .50 cal. Browning M2 machine gun.

If you think the cops shoot a lot of people I guess you can give us some figures?
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Re: Murder by gun.

Post by ElectricMonk » Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:47 pm

Unfortunately, it is SOP for law enforcement not to collect data on shootings.
The only way as of today is via news articles.

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Re: Murder by gun.

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:50 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:Unfortunately, it is SOP for law enforcement not to collect data on shootings.
The only way as of today is via news articles.
Yeah, right. Okay, you don't know how many people are shot by police on an average day. Didn't stop you from making a bald assertion, now did it?
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Re: Murder by gun.

Post by ElectricMonk » Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:13 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
ElectricMonk wrote:Unfortunately, it is SOP for law enforcement not to collect data on shootings.
The only way as of today is via news articles.
Yeah, right. Okay, you don't know how many people are shot by police on an average day. Didn't stop you from making a bald assertion, now did it?
Sir, you might have me confused with someone else...

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Re: Murder by gun.

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:38 pm

Yeah, I was responding to Io. I blame drugs and a bad upbringing. But mostly the drugs.
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Re: Murder by gun.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:17 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote: If you think the cops shoot a lot of people I guess you can give us some figures?
Estimates are out there. More to the point, I don't think ANYONE seriously engaged think the cops are overly protective of the public's lives. They have an us vs them mentality where them is all criminals and a threat to the cops lives. They are trained to make kill shots...just to be safe.

When is the last time (ie: days) you read about cops shooting people for no good reason at all? When is the last time (ie: never) read about a cop being injured as he was trying to talk someone down?

My favorite: how long it took cops to stop shooting at people fleeing away in a car. Still have regular instances of cops shooting suspects/who knows who if they try to run away.

All to the point: "a lot" is totally subjective. If the cops were to be trusted, they would not shoot as many as they do, and when they do, they would not universally not even be charged.....much less promoted.

Just look.
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Re: Murder by gun.

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:22 pm

That is exactly the kind of {!#%@} I'm trying to get sorted out. I'll bring out some information if anyone not relentlessly obstreperous asks for it.
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Re: Murder by gun.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:16 pm

Who's being obstreperous if you have the figures but you challenge others to produce them?
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Re: Murder by gun.

Post by Gord » Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:53 pm

Stop blaming the drugs!!
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Re: Murder by gun.

Post by Io » Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:10 am

Mmm. I was really just being flippant, in a way that amused (only, it seems) me. Not making any point about police, guns or anything really. Throwaway gibberish. I blame the drugs.

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Re: Murder by gun.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:08 am

Io: I took your post as exactly how you characterize it, or as I would call it: word play....for my own amusement. I was mildly amused........but you can address the issue presented, or go off on your own tangent. Why should anyone else be enraptured by such self centered conduct?

YOU define yourself with each post you make. Luckily, each new post is a new start. Choose ................. as you wish.
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Re: Murder by gun.

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:26 am

Io wrote:Mmm. I was really just being flippant, in a way that amused (only, it seems) me. Not making any point about police, guns or anything really. Throwaway gibberish. I blame the drugs.
No prob. Deadpan posts get deadpan replies. The myth that cops are on a shooting rampage isn't supported by the facts.
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Re: Murder by gun.

Post by Gord » Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:22 pm

Gord wrote:Stop blaming the drugs!!
Io wrote:I blame the drugs.
Nooooooooooo!! :stella:
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Re: Murder by gun.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:28 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote: The myth that cops are on a shooting rampage isn't supported by the facts.
I thought it was agreed that there are no facts? ie: that such facts are not collected, so we go anecdotal and secondary sources?? I think it is established by the facts that when cops do murder people, they don't even get charged.
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Re: Murder by gun.

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:33 pm

You're wrong, of course. The police aren't the only ones to collect information.

And you know that police don't get charged for murdering people based on internet hearsay, or something less reliable?
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Re: Murder by gun.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:39 pm

There is a kind of murder by cop that is quite disgusting, in my view. Even here in NZ we see news items describing these happening in the USA from time to time. That is when a cop is pointing a gun at a suspect, and the suspect reaches for a wallet or similar, and the cop puts a bullet through the suspect's chest on the grounds that he might be reaching for a gun.

In my ever so humble opinion, this is an example of yellow bellied, lily livered, disgusting cowardice. The police slogan "to serve and protect" is made a mockery. Any person who is the opposite of coward is prepared to take a risk to save human life. To take a life because there may be a tiny risk by not killing, is reprehensible, and those cops should be drummed out of the police force AFTER serving 20 years in prison, locked into a tiny cell with a convicted homosexual rapist.

Just yesterday, here in NZ, there was a news item about a woman who died while saving two children from drowning. That is courage and sacrifice. The police should be expected to do just as much, or more. A tiny risk taken to avoid killing is definitely not too much to ask.