WTF is it with this non duality BS?

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WTF is it with this non duality BS?

Post by sandisk » Sat Dec 26, 2015 6:30 am

To say that it's non-dual is BS. the process OPERATES on tension between duality and plurality, duality and plurality is the necessary for processess to occur. without it, there would BE no process. without death, there is no life. without hate, there is no love. without pain there is no pleasure, etc...
embrace duality. move towards the world. acceptance is the key. denial is ignorance.
embrace plurality, know that there is not chair and anti-chair.
Last edited by sandisk on Tue Mar 07, 2017 5:55 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: WTF is it with this non duality BS?

Post by Flash » Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:25 am

You seem to be confusing "duality" with "dualism".
I just started to write a book on all of this. First paragraph, first page, chapter one, volume one. When I finish all couple of dozens of volumes I will get back to you okay? :banghead:
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Re: WTF is it with this non duality BS?

Post by andrewg » Sun Aug 14, 2016 5:14 pm

It makes more sense to say that birth (beginning) is the opposite of death (end)

So what is the opposite of life?

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Re: WTF is it with this non duality BS?

Post by Josham » Sat Sep 24, 2016 9:55 pm

Hi sandisk, I'm new here. This is my first post in fact. I was drawn to your question "What is it with this non duality BS?", because I'm interested in non-duality. I note that you posted the question going on for a year ago. I hope you're still interested in pursuing responses.

I could also note that in referring to non-duality as "BS", you don't give me much hope that you'd be open to considering any response in support of non-duality. Nevertheless, I'll give it a shot.

You're absolutely right that duality is necessary for the processes of the universe to occur - love/hate, pain/pleasure, etc. In this sense duality could also be termed polarity, and all of existence is characterised by polarities - black/white, light/dark, male/female, and so on.

Now, how to get a handle on what non-duality could be? I guess you would probably be familiar with the yin/yang symbol - there are two "fishes" forming a circle, one black and one white, which represent all those polarities endlessly interacting with each other. Within the head of each fish there is a dot of the opposite colour - symbolising how the potential opposite of a thing immediately arises in conjunction with that thing.

As I see it, non-duality would be the circle in which the fishes are interacting. It's not a great illustration, but perhaps it's the closest we can come to conceptualising what some would call "source" - an eternal, undifferentiated background from which all dualities appear to arise.

You could argue that there is no source beyond the apparent dualities that characterise the universe we perceive, but arguably it's impossible to prove either the existence or the non-existence of such a source.

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Re: WTF is it with this non duality BS?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Sep 25, 2016 12:44 am

Josham wrote:You're absolutely right that duality is necessary for the processes of the universe to occur - love/hate, pain/pleasure, etc. In this sense duality could also be termed polarity, and all of existence is characterised by polarities - black/white, light/dark, male/female, and so on.
Your claim is ridiculous. What is the polar opposite of an adrenaline rush? There is no such thing as an anti-adrenaline rush is there? Even more fun, what is the polar opposite of a chair? An "anti-chair"?

In essence, you are making the very human psychological mistake of trying, or wanting, to see simple patterns where no pattern exists.

Josham wrote: I guess you would probably be familiar with the yin/yang symbol - there are two "fishes" forming a circle, one black and one white, which represent all those polarities endlessly interacting with each other. Within the head of each fish there is a dot of the opposite colour - symbolising how the potential opposite of a thing immediately arises in conjunction with that thing.
Now that is just silly. What if I had three fishes forming a circle in that drawing? Does that make a deep and meaningful scientific statement that can be applied to other things? Obviously it does not. It's just a drawing.

Frankly, anyone posting on a science forum, saying that they see their life in dualism terms is seen as a rather limited "binary thinker" and probably not going to understand half the conversations going on here. :D

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Re: WTF is it with this non duality BS?

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sun Sep 25, 2016 4:59 am

Strikes me that this duality business is religious bulldust. The Taoists believe in dualism, and label it yin and yang. But that is not a truth. It is just a religious superstition.

As Matt points out, a hell of a lot of existence has no duality. Some things exist on a spectrum, like colours. There is no anti-red. But there is orange, yellow, green, blue, violet, ultra-violet etc. Even sexual orientation exists on a spectrum. It is not straight versus gay, but all sorts of shades of bisexual as well. Even non sexual.

Look at the universe as shades of grey and you will be closer to reality.

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Re: WTF is it with this non duality BS?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Sep 25, 2016 5:49 am

Ha, ha...........you just said "some things exist on a spectrum"..... then suggested to look at the universe in shades of grey.

((Someone smarter could make a reference to "Fifty Shades of Gray" but it escapes me right now.))

I would think looking at the universe in radio waves or gravity waves would be more informative.

Just funny to make a wise and correct statement in sentence one and then violate it with the next one.

Hoomans are like that.
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Re: WTF is it with this non duality BS?

Post by ElectricMonk » Sun Sep 25, 2016 5:55 am

Duality is the basic cop-out: I don't understand what I see, therfore something invisible must be at work.

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Re: WTF is it with this non duality BS?

Post by Josham » Sun Sep 25, 2016 9:32 am

Matthew Ellard - thanks for welcoming me to the forum. In response to your comments, I would point out that before we even know the existence of a thing, we know only the perceived qualities of that thing. The perceived qualities of an adrenaline rush are heightened awareness, quickened heart-beat, etc. The opposing qualities would be lack of awareness, slowed heart-beat, etc.

The perceived qualities of a chair would be, say, the hardness or smoothness we feel. We couldn't know those qualities without also knowing softness or roughness, could we? The existence of the chair itself is immaterial. Our perception of the qualities of the chair is primary. The only thing that gives meaning to qualities is comparing and contrasting them with opposing qualities.

This simple and obvious realisation is what the yin-yang symbol attempts to convey.

Lance Kennedy - there is nothing religious about duality. It's just an obvious prerequisite for meaningful perception. Nothing we perceive would make any sense unless we could compare it with opposing perceptions. Of course you're right that many things exist on a spectrum. But that whole spectrum is still one of opposing qualities. You could say the opposite of red is "not-red" - with "not-red" arising as a concept in response to our also perceiving the qualities we call green, yellow, etc.

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Re: WTF is it with this non duality BS?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Sep 25, 2016 9:57 am

Josham wrote: I would point out that before we even know the existence of a thing, we know only the perceived qualities of that thing.
Meaningless gibberish. If you don't know the existence of a thing, you got nothing. These are simple concepts, not obscured by woo talk.
xxx
Josham wrote:The opposing qualities would be lack of awareness, slowed heart-beat, etc.
If you set it up that way...how about barely aware, arrhythmia, etc. "I think" more often than thinking in opposites, dualities, extremes, either/or, digital and all the rest....there are continuums of various descriptions that apply allowing for the subtlety you recognize with ying/yang which is only a specialized case and not the general rule.
xxx
Josham wrote:
The perceived qualities of a chair would be, say, the hardness or smoothness we feel. We couldn't know those qualities without also knowing softness or roughness, could we?
Ever study the Platonic Ideal? Has nothing to do with softness or roughness.... no one describes a chair that way. Ha, ha........ forced by the model you want to champion your idea. But.... it just ain't so. Whats the opposite of chair? ......... and you are left standing alone.
xxx
Josham wrote: The existence of the chair itself is immaterial. Our perception of the qualities of the chair is primary. The only thing that gives meaning to qualities is comparing and contrasting them with opposing qualities. /// Thats very Platonic.... and as stated, the Idea of the Perfect Chair is about function....not the tactile experience THAT CAN ONLY BE HAD... with existing real chairs. You kinda have yourself in a corner here.
xxx
Josham wrote: This simple and obvious realisation is what the yin-yang symbol attempts to convey.
I love yin-yang. Its much more sublime than showing opposites....note the little circles within the fish? buy and use a good dictionary:

yin-yang: Yin and yang can be thought of as complementary (rather than opposing) forces that interact to form a dynamic system in which the whole is greater than the assembled parts."
xxx
Josham wrote:Lance Kennedy - there is nothing religious about duality.
Yeah... there is. The concept is almost all religion for as stated: Science uses a continuum or measurement approach where opposites and duality have little to no meaning...or at least functionality.
xxx
Josham wrote: It's just an obvious prerequisite for meaningful perception.
/// Ok...I could go both ways on that. Maybe..............there is nothing that duality provides that is not present in placement on a continuum whereas the continuum can offer so much more.

xxx
Josham wrote:You could say the opposite of red is "not-red" - with "not-red" arising as a concept in response to our also perceiving the qualities we call green, yellow, etc.
Ha, ha....can you sense how useless "not red" as a concept is? Red being one wavelength and its opposite is a million wavelengths or how ever small you wish to slice it. Red is a concept. Not-red is made up BS to bolster a useless concept that no one uses.

.....Everything in its place. Reality a mix of different realizations/rules/characterizations. Don' lose your way by following just one exclusively.......or even several dozen.
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Re: WTF is it with this non duality BS?

Post by Josham » Sun Sep 25, 2016 10:12 am

Hi Bobbo, all of your comments above are sadly flawed, but let's just take the first one for a start. How you could possibly know of the existence of a thing outside of your perception of the qualities of that thing?

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Re: WTF is it with this non duality BS?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Sep 25, 2016 10:13 am

You phrase it wrongly. How can you perceive any quality of a thing if it doesn't exist?
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Re: WTF is it with this non duality BS?

Post by Josham » Sun Sep 25, 2016 10:15 am

No, you're the one who's got it the wrong way around. First comes perceptions. Then comes the assumption of existence per se. Demonstrate to me that that cannot be the case.

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Re: WTF is it with this non duality BS?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Sep 25, 2016 10:29 am

Ha, ha. An impasse right at the start. I think its easy to say what you do.... but not when the error is pointed out to you.

You made the supposition...It is actually fair to ask YOU to demonstrate...but I'll meet you half way:

Hmmm.... whats the best way to phrase this so you might get it?

1. Can you describe something you have never seen or heard about before?

2. Imagine a total void. What are your perceptions of it??? Could the perception of a chair arise out of this void without a chair being presented? An elephant??? and so forth.

3. Please describe you perception of this thing that "I" am looking at right now.

It is so very basic.
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Re: WTF is it with this non duality BS?

Post by Josham » Sun Sep 25, 2016 10:49 am

1. Well, yes. In addition to seeing and hearing, I have other gates of perception, mainly touch, smell, taste. Perceptions arise through these sense gates. I form concepts around my perceptions. Thus the concept of "chair" in response mainly to the sensation of touch.

2. How does one imagine a total void? I can't see how one could imagine nothing. And the perception of a chair doesn't arise out of a void. It arises from sensory perception.

3. Who is the "I" you refer to? How can I even know you exist? It's an assumption based on my perception of typographical symbols that appear on what I conceptualise as a computer screen. I might just as well be interacting with myself - it's just as valid a way of seeing reality.

Yes, it is indeed so very basic. We can't make any assumptions about the nature of reality. We can only know our perceptions.

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Re: WTF is it with this non duality BS?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Sep 25, 2016 10:57 am

Sensory perception....... of what?
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Re: WTF is it with this non duality BS?

Post by Josham » Sun Sep 25, 2016 11:02 am

Just perceptions. The "what" is a concept.

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Re: WTF is it with this non duality BS?

Post by Josham » Sun Sep 25, 2016 11:05 am

Don't mistake reality for concepts of reality. The only reality is perception.

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Re: WTF is it with this non duality BS?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Sep 25, 2016 11:06 am

gibberish. You can't perceive a chair unless a chair is there to perceive. You posted with that recognition. Its only the express recognition of same on your part that is missing.

One last chance.
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Re: WTF is it with this non duality BS?

Post by Josham » Sun Sep 25, 2016 11:16 am

I didn't post with the recognition of a chair. You misunderstood. I posted with the recognition of the CONCEPT of a chair, based on perception. Of course it's convenient to construe reality according to concepts. That's what we do. It doesn't mean those concepts are the reality. The only thing we can be certain of is our perceptions. Anything else is assumption.

Perception must be primal. Can't you see that? It seems that despite your "More Than 5K Posts", you have a problem with basic logical deduction. This is a skeptic forum, but you're unwilling to be skeptical about the most basic existential issue - that of perceived reality versus conceptualised reality.

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Re: WTF is it with this non duality BS?

Post by Josham » Sun Sep 25, 2016 11:18 am

Off to bed now. Good night.

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Re: WTF is it with this non duality BS?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Sep 25, 2016 11:28 am

Sorry Slosh: what you posted was: " I would point out that before we even know the existence of a thing, we know only the perceived qualities of that thing." which is wrong. Until just above, you did not use the term concept. All very Platonic. Here are two dualities: right and wrong. Honest and sniveling. but you are now on the right track.

Then you immediately go off track. Perceptions are NEVER to be trusted. Simple illustration: optical illusions. Another one is how the brain interprets reality. Another one is how we don't perceive at all but rather "remember" what our brain has constructed from what our senses register.

Nice boilerplate, but you circle back to the same "primal" error you made to start with: we start with reality. REALITY is what we perceive, but our perception has its limits. No shifting of the onus here. I conclude that with your default to the ab hominem that you are spent as is the return to the argument ab initio: nothing learned even though stymied at each proposition.

I'll let others take over, should the interest survive your world salad.
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Re: WTF is it with this non duality BS?

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sun Sep 25, 2016 12:40 pm

andrewg wrote:
So what is the opposite of life?
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Re: WTF is it with this non duality BS?

Post by OlegTheBatty » Sun Sep 25, 2016 8:58 pm

Josham

All you are doing is showing that anything can be oversimplified into a duality. Duality is a subjective interpretation, and has no more reality than any other subjective interpretation.
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Re: WTF is it with this non duality BS?

Post by TJrandom » Sun Sep 25, 2016 10:38 pm

Jisham

If you believe in something hard enough… you can convince yourself that your belief is true.

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Re: WTF is it with this non duality BS?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Sep 26, 2016 2:07 am

Josham wrote:Matthew Ellard - thanks for welcoming me to the forum. In response to your comments, I would point out that before we even know the existence of a thing, we know only the perceived qualities of that thing.
That is also ridiculous. How can perceive qualities of a thing before I even know it exists.
Josham wrote:The perceived qualities of a chair would be, say, the hardness or smoothness we feel. We couldn't know those qualities without also knowing softness or roughness, could we?
That is also ridiculous. You are now claiming a chair is rough or smooth, which is totally subjective and then using the word "we" which imposes your subjective opinion on a group of people.

What if the chair is red? What do you claim is the opposite of red? ( Red doesn't have an opposite does it? as it is a photon wave frequency. )

Josham wrote: The existence of the chair itself is immaterial. Our perception of the qualities of the chair is primary. The only thing that gives meaning to qualities is comparing and contrasting them with opposing qualities.
Complete crap. The existence of the chair can be proven by independent scientific assessment tools which don't require any human involvement. No one has to perceive the chair for the chair to be real.

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Re: WTF is it with this non duality BS?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Sep 26, 2016 2:13 am

Josham wrote:Hi Bobbo, all of your comments above are sadly flawed, but let's just take the first one for a start. How you could possibly know of the existence of a thing outside of your perception of the qualities of that thing?
Through a series of objective scientific experiments that don't even require humans to be involved or perceive anything.

If a machine tests for specific isotopes of carbon atoms, that I can't personally see or perceive, does that mean they don't exist? Yet that's what machines are actually doing.

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Re: WTF is it with this non duality BS?

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Sep 26, 2016 2:21 am

:hmm: It seems in reality, there's no such thing as opposites. Or, perhaps, one: There's presence, and there's absence. And what's present is all one continuous line with different stages (and their various names) on it.

Maybe something spooky ( :-P), but nothing wooish about that...
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Re: WTF is it with this non duality BS?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Sep 26, 2016 2:54 am

Good notion eggs. Opposites or duality is a human construct. Reality is measurements/continuums....although in some way they might be constructs as well.......and of course they are. inches vs centimeters. Length determined by how fast you are moving.... etc.
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Re: WTF is it with this non duality BS?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Sep 26, 2016 2:59 am

Josham wrote:No, you're the one who's got it the wrong way around. First comes perceptions. Then comes the assumption of existence per se. Demonstrate to me that that cannot be the case.
This is why you are a religious person who can never progress from the 'Dark Ages" in human history.

Firstly, modern humans are continuously encountering new things, that are unknown to them, that they can't perceive. The classic example is the electron. No one knew an electron existed. Yet something was happening when a cathode ray tube encountered a magnetic field.

Therefore, by systematically experimenting with many different experiments that all humans could replicate objectively, and through the application of the Scientific method a hypothesis could be formulated that remained consistent and true regardless of any individual's subjective perception of what was going on. As there was no exception to the objective experiments performed, the hypothesis, that a thing existed became the best solution, and thus a thing called an electron became a reality.

In your religious approach, the subjective perception of an individual must first exist, yet simultaneously another human, may have a totally different subjective opinion concerning the same phenomena. Therefore, your subjective opinion can never progress to form a general scientific rule that remains constant to all humans simultaneously.

In fact what you religious dualism followers do, is artificially impose your personally defined binary filter to both explained and unexplained phenomena, This is an absolute worthless waste of time as it can never progress from subjective opinion.

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Re: WTF is it with this non duality BS?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Sep 26, 2016 3:09 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Good notion eggs. Opposites or duality is a human construct. .
I absolutely agree. It is just word games restricted to human language. As we know modern humans only evolved 195,000 years ago, yet the physics of the universe was happily chugging along for 14 billion years before that. No one was perceiving anything before 195,000 years ago, so is Josham claiming the universe didn't exist? :lol:

I now challenge Josham to inform me of the opposites of :

1) A black hole,
2) The colour red,
3) The six quarks (which must operate in groups of three)
4) The temperature "absolute zero". (Josham said it was impossible to conceive nothing,) :D
5) A photon,

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Re: WTF is it with this non duality BS?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Sep 26, 2016 3:23 am

Josham wrote: This simple and obvious realisation is what the yin-yang symbol attempts to convey.

What about three way splits in Zen symbols? Aren't you simply mistaking artwork created by humans in the last 2,000 years as some sort of magical assessment tool? :D
3 split system Zen.jpg
Josham wrote:You could say the opposite of red is "not-red" - with "not-red" arising as a concept in response to our also perceiving the qualities we call green, yellow, etc.
Are you really that ignorant?

Red is a photon wave frequency of 440 Terahertz. It doesn't have an opposite and only mammals on Earth see the colour red. A Red-Green colourblind person doesn't perceive any colour at all. Your claim is worthless to describe the real universe.
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Re: WTF is it with this non duality BS?

Post by Cygnus_X1 » Mon Oct 03, 2016 4:04 am

'Everything is connected' is often used as mystical hocus pocus, when in fact the inter-connectivity of stuff has an extremely logical and down to earth basis. The process of existing is by definition one of interaction. A thing that did not interact with anything else in our universe, to all extents and purposes would not exist to our universe. Thus the mere act of existing is one of interaction and connection.
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Re: WTF is it with this non duality BS?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Oct 03, 2016 8:41 am

cygnus: I often say and think everything is connected to everything else. But.... its all a question of degree with a steep slope to near zero for most issues. Some issues (degrees of separation/connection) are fun to play with. Just another tool to understand the universe, yourself, a little bit better.
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Re: WTF is it with this non duality BS?

Post by sandisk » Fri Mar 03, 2017 6:09 am

Cygnus_X1 wrote:'Everything is connected' is often used as mystical hocus pocus, when in fact the inter-connectivity of stuff has an extremely logical and down to earth basis. The process of existing is by definition one of interaction. A thing that did not interact with anything else in our universe, to all extents and purposes would not exist to our universe. Thus the mere act of existing is one of interaction and connection.
What is your proof of what u said? How do u KNOW that something that doesn't interact doesn't exist? Is there any evidence of such? That sounds very nonsensical to me.
And even If it is true, doesn't mean that "everything is connected", this is also hocus pocus BS.

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Re: WTF is it with this non duality BS?

Post by sandisk » Fri Mar 03, 2017 6:18 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Good notion eggs. Opposites or duality is a human construct. .
I absolutely agree. It is just word games restricted to human language. As we know modern humans only evolved 195,000 years ago, yet the physics of the universe was happily chugging along for 14 billion years before that. No one was perceiving anything before 195,000 years ago, so is Josham claiming the universe didn't exist? :lol:

I now challenge Josham to inform me of the opposites of :

1) A black hole,
2) The colour red,
3) The six quarks (which must operate in groups of three)
4) The temperature "absolute zero". (Josham said it was impossible to conceive nothing,) :D
5) A photon,
What is the proof of "modern" "humans" "evolving" , why this label to people? Where is a human? What is it? I dont see any "human" to me this is a label that doesn't make sense. Where is the direct evidence of this label.'human' ?

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Re: WTF is it with this non duality BS?

Post by Poodle » Fri Mar 03, 2017 7:22 am

sandisk wrote:
Cygnus_X1 wrote:'Everything is connected' is often used as mystical hocus pocus, when in fact the inter-connectivity of stuff has an extremely logical and down to earth basis. The process of existing is by definition one of interaction. A thing that did not interact with anything else in our universe, to all extents and purposes would not exist to our universe. Thus the mere act of existing is one of interaction and connection.
What is your proof of what u said? How do u KNOW that something that doesn't interact doesn't exist? Is there any evidence of such? That sounds very nonsensical to me.
And even If it is true, doesn't mean that "everything is connected", this is also hocus pocus BS.
Look up WIMPs - weakly interacting massive particles - which are, theoretically, the essence of dark matter (itself theoretical). Dark matter, if it exists, is going to be extremely difficult to find as a direct result of that very weak interaction. If there was no interaction at all, then there could be no detection at all - on any level, by anything existing in the universe. As such a thing would not impinge in any way, no matter how insignificant, on even the tiniest, weeniest little bit of reality as we define it, then it effectively does not exist.
Now the fine point - something that effectively does not exist does not exist unless you can come up with an alternative (but rational) definition of the word 'exist'.

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Re: WTF is it with this non duality BS?

Post by Nobrot » Fri Mar 03, 2017 1:09 pm

sandisk wrote: What is the proof of "modern" "humans" "evolving" , why this label to people? Where is a human? What is it? I dont see any "human" to me this is a label that doesn't make sense. Where is the direct evidence of this label.'human' ?
Is this something so deeply profound that it's way over my head or is it bongthink?

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Re: WTF is it with this non duality BS?

Post by Gord » Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:04 pm

sandisk wrote:
Cygnus_X1 wrote:'Everything is connected' is often used as mystical hocus pocus, when in fact the inter-connectivity of stuff has an extremely logical and down to earth basis. The process of existing is by definition one of interaction. A thing that did not interact with anything else in our universe, to all extents and purposes would not exist to our universe. Thus the mere act of existing is one of interaction and connection.
What is your proof of what u said? How do u KNOW that something that doesn't interact doesn't exist? Is there any evidence of such? That sounds very nonsensical to me.
He didn't say something that doesn't interact doesn't exist, he said that to all extents and purposes it would not exist to our universe. Look, if it doesn't interact, it has no effect. No effect is exactly the same amount of effect that you get from something that doesn't exist. Therefore something that exists but does not interact with our universe, to all extents and purposes, would not exist to our universe.
Nobrot wrote:
sandisk wrote:What is the proof of "modern" "humans" "evolving" , why this label to people? Where is a human? What is it? I dont see any "human" to me this is a label that doesn't make sense. Where is the direct evidence of this label.'human' ?
Is this something so deeply profound that it's way over my head or is it bongthink?
Probably.
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE
Is Trump in jail yet?

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Re: WTF is it with this non duality BS?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:19 am

sandisk wrote:What is the proof of "modern" "humans" "evolving"
I also assume you have had too many bongs in row,.........however...

Do you want me to start with the fossil evidence, DNA evidence, physiological evidence or environmental evidence going all the way back to Australopithecines?

Meet Lucy, your 3.2 million year old cousin from Africa.
Lucy 2.jpg
Lucy 1.jpg
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