Hunts Majdanek film.

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Dec 16, 2014 12:17 am

Mary Q Contrary wrote:Those aren't synonyms for carbon monoxide. Google each one separately to learn yourself some more better chemistry. Besides, "carbon oxide"--which is what the Poles call it--isn't on that list of other names anyway.
That's because it is in Polish, you idiot! Read the sign.

Polish
Carbon oxide = tlenek węgla
Carbon Monoxide = tlenek węgla
Carbon Dioxide = dwutlenek węgla

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by scrmbldggs » Tue Dec 16, 2014 12:27 am

Don't feed the trolls... :roll:
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Tue Dec 16, 2014 12:29 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:Those aren't synonyms for carbon monoxide. Google each one separately to learn yourself some more better chemistry. Besides, "carbon oxide"--which is what the Poles call it--isn't on that list of other names anyway.
That's because it is in Polish, you idiot! Read the sign.

Polish
Carbon oxide = tlenek węgla
Carbon Monoxide = tlenek węgla
Carbon Dioxide = dwutlenek węgla
We're talking about the English part of the sign, moron.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by scrmbldggs » Tue Dec 16, 2014 12:36 am

"Mary", we're sorry about your limitations. But they have no real bearing on the issue.

Maybe you can show us what is written on the current signs?
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by nickterry » Tue Dec 16, 2014 12:40 am

Mary Q Contrary wrote: We're talking about the English part of the sign, moron.
This is becoming reminiscent of the time when your previous incarnation at JREF argued pointlessly for god knows how many pages over adipocere vs wax-fat transformation allbecause of a translation from Polish.

It's been pointed out already but the German part of the sign clearly says 'Kohlenmonoxyd'. I guess the notion of imperfect parallel translations never occurred to Maryzilla.

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Tue Dec 16, 2014 12:46 am

scrmbldggs wrote:"Mary", we're sorry about your limitations. But they have no real bearing on the issue.

Maybe you can show us what is written on the current signs?
We're not talking about the current signs either. We're talking about the signs in the pictures that Pyrrho posted.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Tue Dec 16, 2014 12:59 am

nickterry wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote: We're talking about the English part of the sign, moron.
This is becoming reminiscent of the time when your previous incarnation at JREF argued pointlessly for god knows how many pages over adipocere vs wax-fat transformation allbecause of a translation from Polish.

It's been pointed out already but the German part of the sign clearly says 'Kohlenmonoxyd'. I guess the notion of imperfect parallel translations never occurred to Maryzilla.
An imperfect translation is something that did occur to me. But until you came along, nobody else figured that one out. They just wanted to argue that the two phrase are synonymous.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Dec 16, 2014 1:07 am

nickterry wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote: We're talking about the English part of the sign, moron.
This is becoming reminiscent of the time when your previous incarnation at JREF argued pointlessly for god knows how many pages over adipocere vs wax-fat transformation allbecause of a translation from Polish.

It's been pointed out already but the German part of the sign clearly says 'Kohlenmonoxyd'. I guess the notion of imperfect parallel translations never occurred to Maryzilla.
The Russian has, according to Google translate and my paltry Russian, carbon monoxide - the English and French have carbon oxide - all based off the Polish for carbon monoxide. This is symptomatic of what besides translation problems?

Mary's having a bad run, though. She can't muster up any substantive comments. Whatever she posts seems to be wrong or beside the point. Her attempts at humor are lame.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Dec 16, 2014 1:14 am

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
nickterry wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote: We're talking about the English part of the sign, moron.
This is becoming reminiscent of the time when your previous incarnation at JREF argued pointlessly for god knows how many pages over adipocere vs wax-fat transformation allbecause of a translation from Polish.

It's been pointed out already but the German part of the sign clearly says 'Kohlenmonoxyd'. I guess the notion of imperfect parallel translations never occurred to Maryzilla.
An imperfect translation is something that did occur to me. But until you came along, nobody else figured that one out. They just wanted to argue that the two phrase are synonymous.
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

So, you see, Mary had it right all the time . . . Jesus wept, to borrow a phrase.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by scrmbldggs » Tue Dec 16, 2014 1:19 am

And back to where we were...

http://collections.ushmm.org/oh_findingaids/RG-50.062.0027_trs_en.pdf wrote: - p 4 -
...
Hirayama
Were there gas chambers in the camp you were in?

Rozenberg
Yes. Majdanek was a destruction camp. Only a handful of people survived - the women and men chosen to work in the ammunition factory. There was no work in Majdanek itself, except in the fields a little bit, and the kitchens. There was a roll call every day and those chosen went to the gas chambers.

Hirayama
Did they strip everybody naked, take their clothes and shoes, when they sent people to the gas chamber?

Rozenberg
They claimed everything from us when we first entered the camp, and sent to the showers. Some went to showers with water, some went to showers with gas. Gray and navy blue striped clothing was given to us. You didn't know which way you were going, to the water showers or gas showers. We didn't know we were going to the ammunition factory either, when they chose us. There were three tables set up in a row, and you went to a table and put your name and number down. Would you believe, I don't remember my number; I'm not tattooed. It was not necessary because Majdanek was a destruction camp.
...

- p 5 -
Rozenberg
We didn't know the other shower was gas at first. But after a while, we knew the building ahead of us was the crematorium "the Office." I was not yet 20 years at the time, I didn't know these things...
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Dec 16, 2014 2:06 am

Mary Q Contrary, the holocaust denier wrote: We're talking about the English part of the sign, moron.
Do you mean the Polish sign in the Polish museum concerning the execution of Poles for Polish visitors to read, in Poland?

So you say the holocaust didn't happen because you an American can't read Polish?


Mary, do you think Europeans speak "European"
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Dec 16, 2014 2:15 am

Mary Q Contrary, the lying holocaust denier wrote:An imperfect translation is something that did occur to me. But until you came along, nobody else figured that one out.
I told you three times.

http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 54#p439754" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 93#p439793" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 59#p439859" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You are the world's most pathetic liar.

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Tue Dec 16, 2014 6:26 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mary Q Contrary, the holocaust denier wrote: We're talking about the English part of the sign, moron.
Do you mean the Polish sign in the Polish museum concerning the execution of Poles for Polish visitors to read, in Poland?

So you say the holocaust didn't happen because you an American can't read Polish?


Mary, do you think Europeans speak "European"
:D
No, I mean the Polish sign in the Polish museum concerning the execution of Poles for English speaking visitors to read, in Poland.

Yes, the Holocaust didn't happen because I'm an American and I can't read Polish. That's the only thing that's wrong with the Holocaust story today. My inability to read Polish. Nothing else. Your displaying your brilliant understanding of cause and effect here again.

Geez, you need to put this bug up your butt over "carbon oxide" in perspective. Statistical Mechanic has been destroying the Madjanek story piece by piece with his answers to Nessie's questions. I think you have bigger problems than the wrong word on a sign that may or may not be at the camp anymore anyway.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Dec 16, 2014 8:21 am

Mary Q Contrary,, the holocaust denier wrote:That's the only thing that's wrong with the Holocaust story today. My inability to read Polish.
It's your ability to read English, that's at question. I told you three times.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Nessie » Tue Dec 16, 2014 9:31 am

Thanks Stat Mac for a reasoned and polite discussion. Sadly this thread has gone the way of the rest with bickering over trivial points.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Nessie » Tue Dec 16, 2014 9:35 am

Xcalibur wrote:I have seen the above testimony before at RODOH. Not saying she's totally incredible but that testimony is rather worthless as to clarifying anything at all. She comes off in tone as rather hysterical, doesn't directly answer the questions put her and there may or may not be translation issues as well.
I get the impression eastern European Jews are all some what emotional and can appear hysterical, but then they have experienced a terrible trauma.

She is not being quizzed, she is being asked simple questions to help her describe her memories of what happened. Our questions would be far more specific and we would keep on till we got an answer.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Xcalibur » Tue Dec 16, 2014 5:20 pm

I get the impression eastern European Jews are all some what emotional and can appear hysterical,

Interesting observation as I've seen quite a lot of emotionalism and hysteria in Holocaust deniers as well. Maybe they share more in common with Ost Juden than they would care to admit.

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Dec 16, 2014 11:14 pm

Nessie wrote:I get the impression eastern European Jews are all some what emotional and can appear hysterical, but then they have experienced a terrible trauma.
That's just the portion, of any group of people, who "want to be heard" and they are simply more gregarious and outgoing. A good researcher would also look for and interview those who are not seeking attention. That's the rule for investigating any scenario.

(PS: I don't think Eastern European Jews are more hysterical, but rather 400 years of British and American protestant culture make us more sedate in our expressions, compared to the rest of the world. We are the "odd ones out". Being "hysterical" seems to be the norm for most people on the planet.

Try have a quiet discussion with a Russian about art....and take ear plugs. )

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Nessie » Wed Dec 17, 2014 10:32 am

Good point.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:18 pm

Nessie wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:.....
- how you know that the war-time route taken by the prisoners was the one Hunt claims and not the one described by Kranz, Curilla, and a few prisoner testimonies
I am going by the descriptions of those who were interviewed in the various videos I have seen who describe going into the building, stripping, showering and getting new clothes.
I wanted to follow up on this. I've been unable to find a single testimony describing the route Hunt claims and you say these testimonies support. Can you point us to what you read? Thanks, SM
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Nessie » Wed Dec 17, 2014 7:09 pm

This is the blue print used by Hunt which shows how the Nazis planned bath and delousing to route people in the opposite direction to that the museum claims

Image

Bigger version http://fotos.fotoflexer.com/64a1369b94d ... 7f97f3.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Eingang is to the left which is the end nearest the fence and chambers and ausgang is to the right which would take people onto the camp road that runs to the barracks.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed Dec 17, 2014 7:35 pm

Nessie wrote:This is the blue print used by Hunt which shows how the Nazis planned bath and delousing to route people in the opposite direction to that the museum claims

Image

Bigger version http://fotos.fotoflexer.com/64a1369b94d ... 7f97f3.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Eingang is to the left which is the end nearest the fence and chambers and ausgang is to the right which would take people onto the camp road that runs to the barracks.
(Emphasis mine)


Sorry, it says "Ankleideraum" (dressing room) and "Ausg." (abbreviation for "Ausgang" = Exit) on the left, and "Auskleideraum" (undressing room) and "Eing." (abbreviation for "Eingang" = Entrance) on the right.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Dec 17, 2014 10:16 pm

Thanks Nessie! (I did ask about testimonies so I hope we can come back to them . . .)

Ausgang, to the left, is where visitors enter today, opposite the bunker and gas chambers, and where I believe inmates entered this bathhouse as shown on Tregenza's diagram, which I posted earlier, right?

Four quick points:
1) This is labeled as a "provisional" blueprint, correct? That is, not final.
2) The provisional blueprint according to M/G is dated March 1942 - that is, it is was made months before the Germans decided to use the complex for homicide - and thus before the adjustments to the plan for the gas chambers, etc, construction on the gas chambers starting, according to Kranz, in August and running through the fall - and which adjustments surely might have meant changes for the layout and flow planned in the barracks in March, agreed?
3) There are many differences of the diagram Hunt uses on his website to this plan, do you agree? And the final configuration, as can be seen, e.g., in online videos, doesn't match the March plan either, right?
4) The blueprint is hard to orient to what was eventually decided because it lacks N/S orientation and because the interior rooms and exit/entrance could easily be altered should the plan for the building’s use change, as was decided months later.

It seems strange that Hunt would use a March blueprint to show the layout and use-plan when it has many differences to the eventual layout.

So that is why I asked about the testimonies you mentioned, the blueprint itself doesn't seem to explain what happened and what we know.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Nessie » Thu Dec 18, 2014 1:16 pm

Sorry, I did get my lefts and rights mixed up. The witnesses describe a route that fits going either way, I was remembering the plan and its entrance and exit. Now I have seen it properly it can function either way.

Do we know if those taken to be gassed were given showers first, or were they just taken to the gas chambers? Was a deception needed for people in the camp?
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Dec 18, 2014 2:42 pm

Nessie wrote:Sorry, I did get my lefts and rights mixed up. The witnesses describe a route that fits going either way, I was remembering the plan and its entrance and exit. Now I have seen it properly it can function either way.
I spent a good hour reversed and confused the other day, too!
Nessie wrote:Do we know if those taken to be gassed were given showers first, or were they just taken to the gas chambers? Was a deception needed for people in the camp?
Excellent question. Here's how I think of it, based on what I've read:

First, selections could be on arrival or, as we've discussed, regular prunings of those held in the camp (“all the time . . . every few days”). So we have to distinguish between these. Witnesses describe both types.

Second, for arrival selections, we also have to make a distinction between operations involving Jews who arrived (a) before November 1942, when the first selections for gassing are documented, according to Kranz, which fits with the construction time line for the bunker complex as I can piece it together; those who were brought to Majdanek between that time and November 1943, when the Erntefest action happened and around when gassings were discontinued; and (c) Jews arriving after Erntefest.

Just to take one example, a man named Emanuel Mittleman arrived very early and was given a very low camp number; his testimony doesn't mention anything about an arrival selection.

Third, drilling down into the arrival selections during the peak time when Jews were in the camp, you will often hear from witnesses about

- witnesses often explain being taken from the train to an initial drop-off/collection point, usually in an open field (a field surrounded by barbed wire, a no man's land, limbo) - often at this location there was some kind of initial selection, such as men and women/children/elderly being sorted into two groups; the collection point in the open-air field is sometimes described as a place to be taken before entering the camp proper

- some witnesses report that the men's group, for example, was taken off and the members never seen again; some ascribe this to gassing (survivors being interviewed in the '90s, for example, would have been children, so very often they describe their parents being in the group taken away; I read one who was told later by prisoners that her father, who had been in a group taken off separate to hers and for whom she was looking since the arrival process, had been gassed; by the same token I read one account where a girl was separated from her mother, father, and sister - she never found her parents again but did re-unite with her sister)

- the witnesses often describe that their group as going (sometimes the next day) to a building which some call the "sauna," others a barrack, etc (one witness describes the barrack as having a "Bad" sign on it and being next to the Effektenkammer, which it was - recall the SS-man who witnessed the bodies removed from the complex, he was working at the Effektenkammer as well - barrack No. 43 on camp maps) (I've not read a single witness discussing being gathered under a roof or pavilion of any sort at this time or earlier in the process) (one witness, Judith Becker, described this barrack as "also the place where you got a shower, whatever, the gas"); witnesses used words like "herded" to describe how they were gotten into the barrack

- according to the testimonies, at this building the group was made to strip, leave all the members' clothes and belongings behind, and shower

- almost all of the witnesses to this procedure describe hair cutting/shaving (none mention a specific room for this)

- some of the witnesses say that their entire group went through this building the same way, but many survivors describe a further selection at this time, that selection was in front of one, two, etc SS guards, male and female IIRC, it took place in the nude and witnesses describe the humiliation they felt)

- if there was a selection at this point, SS guards in the bathhouse would point some people left, some people right - so some of the group (old enough to work, healthy enough) would be showered, others would go elsewhere (as one witness, Frieda Aaron, described the selection, "you know, so they let us pass, the selections were in the nude, and indeed we did go into the shower rather than into the shower of gas [gestures right, toward the corridor she would have been facing], we went into the shower of water [gestures straight ahead] . . . “) (I read one testimony where the selection was aborted and all got showers because of a shortage of gas - CO? - and another where a survivor said she was part of a group taken to a barrack because there were too many in the group for the gas chambers)

- survivors describe the shower which may or may not have an additional selection as part of the procedure (some say the water was freezing, some say hot - this seems correlated to season); the testimonies sometimes mention a disinfection bath ("additional 'bath,' this time in that concrete vat of carbolic acid. They referred to it ironically as a 'disinfectant bath' and used their sticks to make sure no one avoided it," "a dip in the jacuzzi, lice", “after that delousing . . . they sprayed us with terrible stuff") as part of the procedure

- obtaining "new" clothes in a long barrack following the shower (the new clothes were worn out and mismatched, with paint/stripes/etc and often described as clothes of former, now-deceased prisoners; almost everyone describes and complains bitterly about the clogs issued to them; at least one witness says he dressed outside the barrack

I completely agree that the "traffic flow" could have been in either direction; the thing is that the testimonies summarized above match with the way I've described the flow and the way it was shown on Tregenza's diagram.

One additional thought, Nessie. Another cheap trick Hunt uses is his repetition of that quotation from his Treblinka video of which he’s so fond and which he used to mock the surviving victims - the witness saying that only the water came down, as though the showers in the camps were always only water.

In the first place, the Jews well knew the difference and distinguished to types of showers - showers for cleaning up and fake showers, meant to fool them and then kill them. What Hunt mocks as confusion was actually an awareness, passed along to them as explained by escapees from the camps.

Second, it is axiomatic that the only memories of survivors are “showers of water,” since survivors, er, survived and were not sent to the chambers having phony showers.

Third, for Majdanek, we can point to some testimonies that are precise about the two kinds of showers and the outcomes. I've cited some above. I've read testimonies given by Adam Boren, Frieda Aaron, Bernard Gotfryd, Rose Minsky, Helen Greenbaum, Estelle Laughlin, and Judith Becker that all describe this process very clearly. Here are a few examples:

Estelle Laughlin: “the next thing I remember was taking through the showers, that too was a petrifying experience, because I knew of the showers, and we knew that in most cases what came out of the shower was the gas, so we expected to be gassed, but we weren’t, and apparently again, there just were too many of us, and the gas chambers just could not accommodate everyone . . ."

Helen Greenbaum: “we knew already that there was such thing as showers where you don’t get water, you get gas”

Bernard Gotfryd: “and we were brought into the showers, and we didn’t know if they were showers or not, I do remember, because by that time we’d heard enough stories about the gas chambers and, and all that, where they fool you, where they bring you into showers, and you think it’s going to, and instead of water you get gas”

So what you see in this is precisely what Hunt covers up: the selection process - and the victims’ understanding of the attempt to fool them as well as their awareness of the meaning of right versus left during selections, the survivors going left in selections within the bathhouse for example, and those gassed being taken to the right.

Now my question, I think worth pondering, is why Hunt plays a cheap rhetorical game with this - and what that says about his larger purposes?
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Dec 18, 2014 3:29 pm

A couple of additional thoughts, looking through Kranz:

- as we know from other sources besides Kranz, Kranz reinforces that there were prior selections made at departure points as well, e.g., at the Umschlagplatz in Warsaw; according the Kranz, regular arrival selections at Majdanek became formalized in 1943, which refines the point I made above

- Kranz makes the same distinction I drew from the witnesses - selections on arrival, selections within the camp; for the latter, Kranz mentions principally those in the Revier and those during roll calls, also examinations at work sites and around the camp to identify weak prisoners

- the selections in 1943, according to Kranz, took place in the Rosengarten, which matches with the wired-in, open-air field witnesses often described; he also mentions selections at Interfield II especially at the time of the 1943 Warsaw transports (I came across one such example, Frieda Kliger, who described being taken to a field where there was coal, in Kranz Photo 5 you can see the heap of coal in Interfield II)

- Kranz's summary confirms a lot of the above - culling of elderly and the sick, SS men with whips

- Kranz describes the Gammelblocks where weak and sick prisoners were held in Field III; I didn't come across any examples of these; also, Kranz says that sometimes children were not killed right away on arrival but held for a short while - this matches what some witnesses said later

- Kranz describes the kind of variety I found in the witnesses

Mary will be happy to learn that Kranz's sources include some court testimonies but mostly memoirs; I didn't see any names in common between the testimonies I summarized and those used by Kranz
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Nessie » Thu Dec 18, 2014 7:19 pm

Those who were selected at TII for work at Majdanek had showers as they were wanted for work. That appears to be the key, work and you lived.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Dec 18, 2014 8:15 pm

Nessie wrote:Those who were selected at TII for work at Majdanek had showers as they were wanted for work. That appears to be the key, work and you lived.
Yes, and if you were arriving and would be kept alive for work purposes, you got a shower, one of water, as Frieda Aaron said, whereas if you were too old, too infirm or ill, or too young to work, you would receive a, quoting again, "shower of gas."

There are some connections between Majdanek and the wider Final Solution, involving labor and extermination, that I think help explain what was going on in the camp.

First, in 1943, as I posted earlier, the camp along with others like Poniatowa was being used as concentration point for Jewish labor; Jews were removed from various ghettos, for example, Warsaw for concentration around enterprises, of which there were many utilizing Jewish labor in Lublin. Also, German shops, like Tobbens and Schultz, were moved from the Warsaw ghetto to the new sites, where the Jews could be more tightly controlled. In late 1943, during Erntefest, the major portion of these laboring Jews in Majdanek and other camps - the old airfield, Lipoma 7, etc - were exterminated (by shooting).

Second, one way to think about the gassings at Majdanek is in terms of AR and especially but not exclusively Belzec. Belzec, which lay about 125 km to the south of Majdanek, past Zamosc, was operated as one of the death centers for Lublin-Lwow region. Belzec, remember, operated from March (commencing with the Lublin clearance operation) through December 1942 (only 18,000 Jews were gassed there in December vs. 105,000 in October and 89,000 in November). By this time, the major part of the work of the cleansing of Belzec's area was accomplished, with Birkenau and Majdanek, along with local “mopping up” operations, able to deal with the remainder of Jews to be liquidated. As Belzec wound down, most (but not all) of the the Majdanek arrivals in autumn 1942 were from very close by in the Lublin district The timing of Majdanek's killing operations aligns to this scenario. Not long before, other counties in the Lublin area were seeing deportations to Treblinka and Sobibor, which lay just 100 km northwest of Lublin. Majdanek came on-line in November 1942, as Belzec ceased operating, and was able to help handle those Jews not eliminated via Belzec.

It is also worth recalling that mass graves at Majdanek - within the camp and in the Krepiec forest I've mentioned - were filmed by Soviet and Polish film crews and documented very thoroughly at time of liberation. Now, these mass graves don’t prove gassing, but they do show that mass murder was occurring in the camp.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Dec 18, 2014 10:35 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Nessie wrote:I watch Eric Hunt's Majdanek film

http://holocausthoaxmuseum.com/majdanek ... mber-myth/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and have come to the conclusion that he makes a very good case that it was not a death camp where people were gassed in homicidal gas chambers.

Discuss.
I guess nobody wants to talk about Madjanek. Maybe everybody thinks you've crossed over to the darkside and so they're shunning you. Maybe everybody watched the video and are thinking "Holy crap! Madjanek really wasn't a death camp. This is terrible. We must not draw attention to this information or it's over for us." So you're getting the silent treatment. Some people are no doubt wondering why you suddenly started hating Jews. Or maybe the call to "discuss" is too generic. What specific points about this video do you find credible?
This is a good time to thank Maryzilla for her many and insightful comments on Majdanek. I am not saying that Maryzilla is an expert on the camp, but, my goodness, Mary's explained how the thread has nailed several spikes into the Holocoffin and boosted Hunt's credibility, which speaks to both Mary's Holoknowledge and reading ability. Without Maryzilla, this thread would not have, well, we wouldn't have been treated to a disquisition on CO in many languages. Which Mary had all twisted around. But it was fun and wouldn't have happened without Mary, who is probably still wondering if anyone wants to talk about Majdanek, because, you know, Nessie's stating an opinion and Hunt's video really flummoxed us and got us totally pissed and none of us were able to muster even a few words. So Maryzilla had to step in . . .
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Thu Dec 18, 2014 11:47 pm

Nessie wrote:Those who were selected at TII for work at Majdanek had showers as they were wanted for work. That appears to be the key, work and you lived.
Yes, that's always been key. If a Jew didn't survive by miracle, he survived because he or she could work.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Fri Dec 19, 2014 12:03 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Nessie wrote:Those who were selected at TII for work at Majdanek had showers as they were wanted for work. That appears to be the key, work and you lived.
Yes, and if you were arriving and would be kept alive for work purposes, you got a shower, one of water, as Frieda Aaron said, whereas if you were too old, too infirm or ill, or too young to work, you would receive a, quoting again, "shower of gas."

There are some connections between Majdanek and the wider Final Solution, involving labor and extermination, that I think help explain what was going on in the camp.

First, in 1943, as I posted earlier, the camp along with others like Poniatowa was being used as concentration point for Jewish labor; Jews were removed from various ghettos, for example, Warsaw for concentration around enterprises, of which there were many utilizing Jewish labor in Lublin. Also, German shops, like Tobbens and Schultz, were moved from the Warsaw ghetto to the new sites, where the Jews could be more tightly controlled. In late 1943, during Erntefest, the major portion of these laboring Jews in Majdanek and other camps - the old airfield, Lipoma 7, etc - were exterminated (by shooting).

Second, one way to think about the gassings at Majdanek is in terms of AR and especially but not exclusively Belzec. Belzec, which lay about 125 km to the south of Majdanek, past Zamosc, was operated as one of the death centers for Lublin-Lwow region. Belzec, remember, operated from March (commencing with the Lublin clearance operation) through December 1942 (only 18,000 Jews were gassed there in December vs. 105,000 in October and 89,000 in November). By this time, the major part of the work of the cleansing of Belzec's area was accomplished, with Birkenau and Majdanek, along with local “mopping up” operations, able to deal with the remainder of Jews to be liquidated. As Belzec wound down, most (but not all) of the the Majdanek arrivals in autumn 1942 were from very close by in the Lublin district The timing of Majdanek's killing operations aligns to this scenario. Not long before, other counties in the Lublin area were seeing deportations to Treblinka and Sobibor, which lay just 100 km northwest of Lublin. Majdanek came on-line in November 1942, as Belzec ceased operating, and was able to help handle those Jews not eliminated via Belzec.

It is also worth recalling that mass graves at Majdanek - within the camp and in the Krepiec forest I've mentioned - were filmed by Soviet and Polish film crews and documented very thoroughly at time of liberation.
Are you referring to the report of the Polish Soviet Extraordinarily Exalted Commission to Objectively Investigate the Heinous Crimes Committed by the Evil Germans at the Madjanek Extermination Camp at Lublin or are these "thoroughly documented" mass graves documented thoroughly elsewhere?
Now, these mass graves don’t prove gassing, but they do show that mass murder was occurring in the camp.
Mass graves don't prove gassing? Where have I heard that before?
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Dec 19, 2014 1:40 am

Mary Q Contrary wrote:Are you referring to the report of the Polish Soviet Extraordinarily Exalted Commission to Objectively Investigate the Heinous Crimes Committed by the Evil Germans at the Madjanek Extermination Camp at Lublin or are these "thoroughly documented" mass graves documented thoroughly elsewhere?
I'm referring to footage included in
- a Soviet newsreel release (18 December 1944) called “Majdanek”; edited by Irina Setkna
- the Polish feature with English title “Majdanek Death Camp - the Cemetery of Europe”; supervised by Aleksandr Ford

I believe that both films but especially the Soviet newsreel used the Polish-Soviet Extraordinary Commission for Investigating the Crimes Committed by the Germans in the Majdanek Death Camp in Lublin. After all, the Soviets drove the Germans out of Lublin, and the camp was in Poland and thus Soviets and Poles investigated the camp. The Soviet-Polish Extraordinary Commission came to a number of unsupportable, erroneous conclusions (e.g., the number of victims estimated was far too high, as were the number and locations of gas chambers; that the large majority of those killed were Jews was suppressed). I do not believe that making this image and others like it was among the errors of the Soviet-Polish team:

Image

Yad Vashem caption: "Majdanek, Poland, A mass grave filled with the remains of bodies, at the time of the liberation. . . . Photographed by Soviet soldiers about a week after the liberation of Birkenau, Auschwitz, and Majdanek."
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Now, these mass graves don’t prove gassing, but they do show that mass murder was occurring in the camp.
Mass graves don't prove gassing? Where have I heard that before?
I have no idea. Why is this important?
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Dec 19, 2014 1:52 am

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Nessie wrote:Those who were selected at TII for work at Majdanek had showers as they were wanted for work. That appears to be the key, work and you lived.
Yes, that's always been key. If a Jew didn't survive by miracle, he survived because he or she could work.
Wannsee Protocol:
Under proper guidance, in the course of the final solution the Jews are to be allocated for appropriate labor in the East. Able-bodied Jews, separated according to sex, will be taken in large work columns to these areas for work on roads, in the course of which action doubtless a large portion will be eliminated by natural causes.

The possible final remnant will, since it will undoubtedly consist of the most resistant portion, have to be treated accordingly, because it is the product of natural selection and would, if released, act as a the seed of a new Jewish revival (see the experience of history.)

In the course of the practical execution of the final solution, Europe will be combed through from west to east. Germany proper, including the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia, will have to be handled first due to the housing problem and additional social and political necessities.
Goebbels' diary, 27 March 1942:
Beginning with Lublin, the Jews in the General Government are now being evacuated eastward. The procedure is a pretty barbaric one and not to be described here more definitely. Not much will remain of the Jews. On the whole it can be said that about 60 per cent of them will have to be liquidated whereas only about 40 per cent can be used for forced labor.

The former Gauleiter of Vienna, who is to carry this measure through, is doing it with considerable circumspection and according to a method that does not attract too much attention. A judgment is being visited upon the Jews that, while barbaric, is fully deserved by them. The prophesy which the Fuehrer made about them for having brought on a new world war is beginning to come true in a most terrible manner. One must not be sentimental in these matters. If we did not fight the Jews, they would destroy us. It's a life-and-death struggle between the Aryan race and the Jewish bacillus. No other government and no other regime would have the strength for such a global solution of this question. Here, too, the Fuehrer is the undismayed champion of a radical solution necessitated by conditions and therefore inexorable. Fortunately a whole series of possibilities presents itself for us in wartime that would be denied us in peacetime. We shall have to profit by this.
Your personal favorite, Colonel Jaeger:
I can confirm today that Einsatzkommando 3 has achieved the goal of solving the Jewish problem in Lithuania. There are no more Jews in Lithuania, apart from working Jews and their families.
These number:
in Shavli, about 4,500
in Kovno, about 15,000
in Vilna, about 15,000
I also wanted to kill these Work Jews, including their families, which however brought upon me acrimonious challenges from the civil administration (the Reichskommisar) and the army and caused the prohibition: the Work Jews and their families are not to be shot!
and
I consider the Jewish action more or less terminated as far as Einsatzkommando 3 is concerned. Those working Jews and Jewesses still available are needed urgently and I can envisage that after the winter this workforce will be required even more urgently. I am of the view that the sterilization program of the male worker Jews should be started immediately so that reproduction is prevented. If despite sterilization a Jewess becomes pregnant she will be liquidated.

Gee, I wonder how Nessie came up with the idea of work being important to survival . . .
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Fri Dec 19, 2014 9:41 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:Are you referring to the report of the Polish Soviet Extraordinarily Exalted Commission to Objectively Investigate the Heinous Crimes Committed by the Evil Germans at the Madjanek Extermination Camp at Lublin or are these "thoroughly documented" mass graves documented thoroughly elsewhere?
I'm referring to footage included in
- a Soviet newsreel release (18 December 1944) called “Majdanek”; edited by Irina Setkna
- the Polish feature with English title “Majdanek Death Camp - the Cemetery of Europe”; supervised by Aleksandr Ford
So footage included in Soviet propaganda films counts as 'thoroughly documented'?
I believe that both films but especially the Soviet newsreel used the Polish-Soviet Extraordinary Commission for Investigating the Crimes Committed by the Germans in the Majdanek Death Camp in Lublin. After all, the Soviets drove the Germans out of Lublin, and the camp was in Poland and thus Soviets and Poles investigated the camp. The Soviet-Polish Extraordinary Commission came to a number of unsupportable, erroneous conclusions (e.g., the number of victims estimated was far too high, as were the number and locations of gas chambers; that the large majority of those killed were Jews was suppressed).

What good is thoroughly documented by the Russians when so much of it is so thoroughly wrong?
I do not believe that making this image and others like it was among the errors of the Soviet-Polish team:

Image

Yad Vashem caption: "Majdanek, Poland, A mass grave filled with the remains of bodies, at the time of the liberation. . . . Photographed by Soviet soldiers about a week after the liberation of Birkenau, Auschwitz, and Majdanek."
I guess Yad Vashem doesn't know that Birkinau, Auschwitz, and Majdanek weren't liberated at the same time.
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Now, these mass graves don’t prove gassing, but they do show that mass murder was occurring in the camp.
Mass graves don't prove gassing? Where have I heard that before?
I have no idea. Why is this important?
I don't know why it's important. You said it.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by iwh » Fri Dec 19, 2014 10:24 am

Mary Q Contrary wrote: I guess Yad Vashem doesn't know that Birkinau, Auschwitz, and Majdanek weren't liberated at the same time.
Depends how you read it. I read it as the pictures were taken one week after the liberation of each camp. That makes more sense to me.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Dec 19, 2014 12:13 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:So footage included in Soviet propaganda films counts as 'thoroughly documented'?
In this case, the Polish and Soviet footage, which aligns with much other source material, independent of the Soviets and Poles, does. A NY Times and BBC reporter, the latter of whose family were refugees from the Bolshevik revolution in Russia, were on the scene part of the time and wrote about what they saw. But, I am curious, are you doubting that mass graves were found at the camp?
Mary Q Contrary wrote:What good is thoroughly documented by the Russians when so much of it is so thoroughly wrong?
As you do when you theorize about the usefulness of postwar trials, you confuse yourself: the evidence is different to the conclusions one draws from it. The commission misinterpreted much of what was at the camp. Also, as noted, we do not have confirming evidence for the Soviet-Pole commission's claims that 1.5 million people were killed at Majdanek - by the same token, we do have evidence which the commission ignored, that the greater part of those murdered at the camp consisted of Jewish victims.
Mary Q Contrary wrote:I guess Yad Vashem doesn't know that Birkinau, Auschwitz, and Majdanek weren't liberated at the same time.
I am guessing Yad Vashem is aware of this. The photo is presented in a series with photos from Auschwitz-Birkenau and the "additional information" in the sidenote, used for the series across both Auschwitz-Birkenau and Majdanek, most likely means roughly after the liberation of each camp. Awkward caption = no Holocaust, that's a new one!
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Now, these mass graves don’t prove gassing, but they do show that mass murder was occurring in the camp.
Mary Q Contrary wrote:[Mass graves don't prove gassing? Where have I heard that before?
I have no idea. Why is this important?
I don't know why it's important. You said it.
My question to you referred, as you know, to your question about where you heard this before. I don't know, of course, where you hear things, but I wondered why you thought establishing this was important. I don’t think it’s important, and, after this run-around, won’t be pursuing your opinion further.

For members of the forum who are interested in the actual discussion about the camp, what I wrote was that the graves don't establish cause of death. They don't, on their own. Further information about the human remains in the mass graves would need to have been done to establish cause of death - but the existence of these mass graves - and IIRC some of the victims near Field V were seen to have been shot - matches other evidence about the camp. I added this in my note to Nessie for clarity and with a hope of perhaps opening up discussion about how so many others died in the camp.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Dec 19, 2014 12:39 pm

Nessie,

I wanted to return to this issue, Hunt's raising the supposed logistical concerns regarding the distance between No. 41 and the crematorium - about a mile - and the inefficiency of carting corpses from the barrack uphill to where the crematorium was located. Recall that I wrote that the crematory that stands today played only a minor role in the disposal of corpses from the gas chambers located behind No. 41:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Nessie wrote:. . . disposal of the bodies at Majdanek was an issue I knew about, but it had not looked at in detail. Hunt did not touch on it much either. At no camp was it done so obviously in front of the entire of the rest of the camp, especially transporting bodies across the camp.
You need to read Kranz. He argues that the bodies were sometimes transported across the camp, presumably because of how the camp was laid out and worked (more below), and that witnesses saw this. He names and quotes Rudolph Ettrich (p 50), Adolf Gorski (p 60), and (it's a bit confused) Natan Zelechower (pp 61-62).
Nessie wrote:Hunt on the other hand has presented a straightforward case using the original as much as possible. Occams razor tells me that the simplest explanation with the fewest assumptions is likely to be the correct one.
Before we let Occam start slicing, I still don't understand what you find straightforward or compelling about Hunt's explanation. In fact, I've shown you lies and distortions he uses to make his case.

Can you state in your own words what the compelling argument is - a summary?

I think you're taking some of Hunt’s specious reasoning at face value because you've not brought into consideration, even if you've read it, source material on the camp. Disclaimer: I've not researched Majdanek in detail, but from what I've read, what you've posted and what I saw on Hunt's website, there’s a persuasive case only that the exhibits aren't authentic, which the museum itself says, and NOT that the bunker was innocuous. You’ve not explained what it is about the layout, the reconstruction, etc. so I can understand your case and so that evidence which others, like Kranz use, is accounted for. Here's an example of why: You and Hunt put a stake in the ground over the distance of the gas chambers from the crematory, as though that's decisive. But let's take into account more evidence than simply the distance. I've given you some above, I will add more below. Here I want to lay out an alternative position to yours out a bit more fully and step by step . . .

Hypothesis

Rather than building the bunker or crematory de novo, the German camp authorities used an existing installation (the original crematory, which - see below - seems to have been operating by June 1942) and/or adapted facilities under construction (the bunker, built during August - September 1942). To make this work, they introduced the miraculous inventions of trucks and outdoor cremation, as needed, to dispose of corpses of those gassed along with corpses of prisoners who died from other causes.

Rationale

It is important to realize that the gas chambers at Majdanek were not aimed at exterminating 100s of 1000s prisoners and not purpose built from outset; thus, they were even more improvised than what's found at larger camps like Auschwitz. E.g., there wasn’t a special camp at Majdanek like Birkenau.

Also, the crematoria were built for disposal, as I alluded to above, of corpses from deaths by other causes than gassing; the original crematory, per Mattogno and Graf, opened in fact before the camp had any gas chambers for executions. That is, the crematory was not connected from the outset to the gas chambers.

M/G, citing Mussfeldt, state that the old crematoria operated from June 1942 as a temporary installation utilizing 2 furnaces brought to Majdanek from Sachsenhausen; this facility, they say, was stopped operating in October 1942, due lack of fuel, and was dismantled in early 1943; M/G also say that construction on the new gas chamber didn’t begin until sometime in 1943. M/G say that the structure was built in March 1943 and the “first known diagram of the installation” is dated 24 June 1943 (pp 101-102).

The original gas chamber - Kranz in Photo 3 in his book and M/G on p 101 agree - was located in Interfield I, near the laundry, which was, in contrast to the replacement crematory, close by the gas chambers. (I understand you like that Hunt “simplifies” all this - but he does so by leaving out facts that undermine his argument - is this truly acceptable to you?)

The gas chambers themselves were adapted, as I've said, during late summer, from disinfection chambers under construction at the time. As the new crematory wasn’t even built yet, ipso facto, the gas chambers were not located near it.

Conclusions

With 1) gassings of people running from September 1942 to November 1943 at the latest, and mostly complete by September 1942 (Kranz, p 57), 2) with the original crematory running only until October 1942 (if M/G are correct), and 3) with the camp thus not having any crematory operational during much of the time period in which Kranz alleges gassings, other means had to be found to deal with corpses of victims, numbering as we've seen in the thousands, along with corpses of prisoners dying from other causes. (I assume that prisoners dying of other causes were also trucked to the crematory, either new or old, as they didn’t conveniently die next to it.)

According to Kranz, whilst a crematorium was operational, bodies were shunted from the gas chambers in trucks or hauled on a a trailer behind a tractor (pp 60-61); these solutions stand in contrast to how Hunt tries to pass off what was done, clowning about "carting prisoners" uphill to the crematorium to make a short truck ride seem impossible. But, against Hunt’s argument, the really significant problem was the need for other means to dispose of corpses when the crematory, whichever one, wasn't functioning.

Again, there doesn't appear to be any mystery where Hunt tries to manufacture one: Kranz (p 61) explains that the authorities used "incineration stakes" laid out "in the former a manege [riding area] located near the gas chamber" (marked 9 on the camp plan) and "in a ravine on the grounds of the vegetable gardens (Gartnerei), some 200 metres from the bathhouses and gas chambers."

The corollary is that it is Hunt who is dishonest here; he's misstated the problem and ignored evidence contrary to his bias. His mystery seems easily solved. Again, I am no expert on this camp - if my solution is wrong, show me where. But your repeating that the museum installation sucks, there's misinformation all around on Majdanek, and that Hunt's specious claims convince you don't really explain either how you come to your views or what the best understanding is.
I found the indictment (in YVA P26/13) in the 1975-1981 Majdanek trial held in Dusseldorf (known as the Third Majdanek Trial). The charges filed in that case match with what Mattogno and Graf wrote about the sequence of crematoria and also with Kranz's research on corpse-disposal sites (thanks to a friend for helping me translate from the German, which I'm happy to post if you'd like; italic is added by me):
The bodies of prisoners who died were burned in a crematorium built in the 1st intermediate field on June 1942. This crematorium had two furnaces (?) which could burn approximately 200 bodies in the course of 24 Hours. A larger crematorium built behind field V was put into operation in the autumn of 1943. It held five furnaces in which up to 1,000 corpses could be burned daily. If the capacity of the respective crematorium was not enough, the bodies were burned in the vicinity of the camp on car chassis and railroad tracks. Cremations of this type were carried out in particular in the period from December 1942 until the fall of 1943.
Recall that the last major gassings, according to Kranz, occurred in October 1943, with perhaps a small number more taking place no later than November 1943. It was in November 1943 that 18,400 Jews were shot in the trenches behind Field V, located close to the new crematorium. Before then, that is, during almost the whole time the gas chambers were operated, corpses were disposed of in the old crematory in Interfield I, as it happens close by the gas chambers, and at incineration locations in the camp.

This succinct note in the charges filed at Dusseldorf clarifies, I think, the sequence and helps explain that the extant crematory's location, which Hunt tries making a problem for the situation of the gas chambers behind No. 41, is a false issue; rather, Hunt simplified the sequence beyond recognition to make it appear that the contemporary ruins of the camp equated to its configuration during the course of the mass murder.

SM
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Fri Dec 19, 2014 9:47 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:So footage included in Soviet propaganda films counts as 'thoroughly documented'?
In this case, the Polish and Soviet footage, which aligns with much other source material, independent of the Soviets and Poles, does. A NY Times and BBC reporter, the latter of whose family were refugees from the Bolshevik revolution in Russia, were on the scene part of the time and wrote about what they saw. But, I am curious, are you doubting that mass graves were found at the camp?
I'm not doubting mass graves were found at the camp. I'm asking why you equate "filmed by the Russians for propaganda purposes" and "witnessed by journalists" with "thoroughly documented"
Mary Q Contrary wrote:What good is thoroughly documented by the Russians when so much of it is so thoroughly wrong?
As you do when you theorize about the usefulness of postwar trials, you confuse yourself: the evidence is different to the conclusions one draws from it.
There's no confusion on my part. I recognize the difference between and the relative value of conclusions drawn vs evidence presented. Fortunately, in this instance, we have the Extraordinary Report which tells us the conclusions of the Commission and the evidence supporting those conclusions.

The commission misinterpreted much of what was at the camp.
Why don't you tell us how the evidence detailed in the Report was misinterpreted by the Russians and the Poles back in 1945 and how it can be interpreted to support the current story.
Also, as noted, we do not have confirming evidence for the Soviet-Pole commission's claims that 1.5 million people were killed at Majdanek - by the same token, we do have evidence which the commission ignored, that the greater part of those murdered at the camp consisted of Jewish victims.
The Commission concluded that 1.38 million prisoner's bodies were cremated during the camp's existence. It found that the Germans concealed the murders by burying the ashes in pits and trenches and scattering them over a large part of the camps vegetable plots and, after mixing the ashes with dung, used them as manure for the fields. In fact, they found over 1,350 cubic meters of compost consisting of dung and human ashes and small human bones. You are correct in that we don't have any confirming evidence for the Soviet-Polish commission's claims in this report except for eyewitness testimony.

The report mentions the camp's use for the extermination of the Jews. What evidence do you think the commission ignored that supports the claim that the greater part of those murdered at the camp were Jewish?
Mary Q Contrary wrote:I guess Yad Vashem doesn't know that Birkinau, Auschwitz, and Majdanek weren't liberated at the same time.
I am guessing Yad Vashem is aware of this. The photo is presented in a series with photos from Auschwitz-Birkenau and the "additional information" in the sidenote, used for the series across both Auschwitz-Birkenau and Majdanek, most likely means roughly after the liberation of each camp. Awkward caption = no Holocaust, that's a new one!
You're correct about the caption and how it appears in a series of photographs on the Yad Vashem website. It is awkward, especially so when one of photographs in that series of photographs taken by Soviet soldiers a week after the liberation of Birkinau, Auschwitz, and Madjanek is a drawing of prisoners at Buchenwald.
1391163873043764456.jpg
Doesn't prove the Holocaust didn't happen. It just proves that the people who present evidence that it did are lazy, sloppy, liars, or simply don't care about presenting accurate facts because they know nobody will call them out on it.
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Now, these mass graves don’t prove gassing, but they do show that mass murder was occurring in the camp.
Mary Q Contrary wrote:[Mass graves don't prove gassing? Where have I heard that before?
I have no idea. Why is this important?
I don't know why it's important. You said it.
My question to you referred, as you know, to your question about where you heard this before. I don't know, of course, where you hear things, but I wondered why you thought establishing this was important. I don’t think it’s important, and, after this run-around, won’t be pursuing your opinion further.

For members of the forum who are interested in the actual discussion about the camp, what I wrote was that the graves don't establish cause of death. They don't, on their own. Further information about the human remains in the mass graves would need to have been done to establish cause of death - but the existence of these mass graves - and IIRC some of the victims near Field V were seen to have been shot - matches other evidence about the camp.
Investigators determined that people had been shot through autopsies. They didn't find any evidence that they had been gassed.
I added this in my note to Nessie for clarity and with a hope of perhaps opening up discussion about how so many others died in the camp.
Why don't you tell why you think the prisoners walked in the direction the Madjanek museum says they walked?
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Mary Q Contrary
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Fri Dec 19, 2014 9:59 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Nessie,

I wanted to return to this issue, Hunt's raising the supposed logistical concerns regarding the distance between No. 41 and the crematorium - about a mile - a....
I found the indictment (in YVA P26/13) in the 1975-1981 Majdanek trial held in Dusseldorf (known as the Third Majdanek Trial). The charges filed in that case match with what Mattogno and Graf wrote about the sequence of crematoria and also with Kranz's research on corpse-disposal sites (thanks to a friend for helping me translate from the German, which I'm happy to post if you'd like; italic is added by me):
The bodies of prisoners who died were burned in a crematorium built in the 1st intermediate field on June 1942. This crematorium had two furnaces (?) which could burn approximately 200 bodies in the course of 24 Hours. A larger crematorium built behind field V was put into operation in the autumn of 1943. It held five furnaces in which up to 1,000 corpses could be burned daily. If the capacity of the respective crematorium was not enough, the bodies were burned in the vicinity of the camp on car chassis and railroad tracks. Cremations of this type were carried out in particular in the period from December 1942 until the fall of 1943.

Recall that the last major gassings, according to Kranz, occurred in October 1943, with perhaps a small number more taking place no later than November 1943. It was in November 1943 that 18,400 Jews were shot in the trenches behind Field V, located close to the new crematorium. Before then, that is, during almost the whole time the gas chambers were operated, corpses were disposed of in the old crematory in Interfield I, as it happens close by the gas chambers, and at incineration locations in the camp.

This succinct note in the charges filed at Dusseldorf clarifies, I think, the sequence and helps explain that the extant crematory's location, which Hunt tries making a problem for the situation of the gas chambers behind No. 41, is a false issue; rather, Hunt simplified the sequence beyond recognition to make it appear that the contemporary ruins of the camp equated to its configuration during the course of the mass murder.

SM
Judicial findings alert! I highlighted the part of your response that can be confirmed to be evidence generated during a judicial proceeding (as is nearly all the evidence we have for the Holocaust). I suspect there is a great deal more evidence you are using that wouldn't exist if it were not for some sort of a trial. However, I don't have the kranz book so I can't follow the footnotes to find out if that is indeed the case.

Since you don't believe the vast majority of all the Holocaust evidence is generated in course of a judicial proceeding of some type, you should have no problem finding a non-judicial source that confirms the facts you have presented.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by iwh » Sat Dec 20, 2014 11:36 am

Mary Q Contrary wrote: It just proves that the people who present evidence that it did are lazy, sloppy, liars, or simply don't care about presenting accurate facts because they know nobody will call them out on it.
I think you will find that errors occur in the presentation of all historical events. Why should a vast area such as the Holocaust be any different?

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