Hunts Majdanek film.

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Pyrrho » Sun Dec 14, 2014 11:33 pm

I believe the signage in the University of Minnesota photos is outdated and has since been replaced with redesigned signage that is not placed in the actual room. The Majdanek museum website does not appear to have images of the current signage, so that remains in question.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Pyrrho » Sun Dec 14, 2014 11:37 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Pyrrho wrote:Banned.
Thanks Pyrrho. I'm still learning from Statistical Mechanical and other people's posts. I think that another holocaust denier, who simply shouts insults, would simply clog things up and no new information would get posted.
That applies in general, not only to holocaust deniers. It was evident that this particular situation was not going to get any better.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Dec 14, 2014 11:38 pm

Mary Q Contrary, the holocaust denier wrote: Twenty first century scholars like Stat Mech, Balsamo, and myself.........
Mary? You're the genius holocaust denier, who posted a 1960's photo a Treblinka I's quarry, with a huge sign saying "quarry" in the photo, and asked "Why is the human ash still here?"

"Scholar" is not the word, that best describes your skill level.

:D
Mary Q Contrary, the holocaust denier wrote: If you want to be accepted around here......
...you should read and look at documents before you post them, something that David and Mary have never done.
:D

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Dec 15, 2014 3:06 am

Nessie wrote:So as I said before, Majdanek is plausible for maybe small scale, experimental gassings, but not large scale as in any other death camp.
What do you mean by "death camp"? But, indeed, the numbers exterminated in the gas chambers at Majdanek pale beside the other camps where Jews were killed - see below.
Nessie wrote:I actually cannot find numbers for those gassed, only over numbers of dead. Do you know?
That's because you're relying on Hunt's hysterics and propaganda. From Kranz, p 74, saying that we don't know the precise number:
Ruppert claims that in the period from October through December 1942, 500-600 people were murdered each week in the Majdanek gas chambers. Thus, during the last quarter of that year, a total of 6,000 to 7,200 people were gassed. This number probably also includes Polish prisoners . . . But . . . out of 15,000 Jews brought to Majdanek from the Warsaw ghetto in the summer of 1943, approximately 4,000-5,000 people were gassed.
This gives us a total of maximum 12,000 according to Kranz - for all of 1942 and the middle portion of 1943. That's the number Kranz gives. But let's add in early and later 1943 numbers. If another 8,000 were killed in the gas chambers in the first part of 1943 and 2,000 before the chambers went out of business in the fall, we get 22,000.

Other scholars agree that the numbers are obscure but that the number gassed should be revised upwards.

Two other ways to look at this: The Hoefle telegram gives 24,733 Jews resettled at "L" (Majdanek) in 1942. Some of these were shot; Kranz cites, e.g., killings in the nearby Krepiec woods. Further, at least 30% of the Jewish deaths in the camp - 18,000 - occurred on one day, 3 November 1943, in the Erntefest action. So the maximum number of Jews killed in the gas chambers was about 40,000 - and this is unlikely due to the reasons enumerated earlier.

If we round 22,000 up to 25,000, taking high estimates all around, and the chambers operated August 1942 - October 1943 - let's be conservative and compress this to 13 months or 395 days - we get about 60 people a day, assuming steady killing.

25,000 is < 5% Auschwitz's total, ditto for for Treblinka - and less than 15% of Chelmno or Sobibor. And, by the way, at Chelmno Jews were driven in gas vans from the mansion to the woods, over public roads, with mishaps and public knowledge occurring.
Nessie wrote:I would need to read Kranz to comment on him.
Right. Since you want to revise him on this, that would be the starting place.
Nessie wrote: the other sources who, as I have already shown provide a very mixed bag of information. That suggests a lot of disagreement and confusion, more so than at any other site. For example
That would seem to indicate a need to dig deeper, not make loose assumptions based on implied traffic flow associated with cherry-picked photos and maps . . .
Nessie wrote: Majdanek did not function like Auschwitz-Birkenau in terms of how the gassings took place, the layout, what was used to gas people and the history of the places in terms of what was claimed to be a gas chamber. Did Majdanek not supposedly have seven chambers attributed to gassings at one time?
You're making quite a leap that actually causes confusion - what you quoted says that the camp was like Auschwitz- Birkenau in being mixed purpose - KL and labor, not primarily an extermination site.
Nessie wrote:That means I can justifiably ask does anyone really know and can anyone be truly sure Majdanek was a camp that ranks along with the other death sites?
Sure you can. But you need to use better reasoning - especially when you draw conclusions from the shallow propaganda you've been citing and then go off on a few, bare lines in an educational website, a key point in which you misinterpret to support your conclusions!
Nessie wrote:So how many killed? As I said I can see a few experimental gassings. Not a death camp.

Now you're confusing yourself with word games. You didn't answer about CO.
Nessie wrote:I am fixating on what the gassing operations were like and Majdanek is the least practical, secure and convincing for mass gassings.
You've not dealt with any of the arguments Kranz gives and I summarized. Saying that something is the least practical, or least successful, by the way, is a sort of tautology: the Red Sox sucked this past season, being the least efficacious team in their division - but they were a major league baseball team. One of the camps where people were killed would probably be the best planned and most efficient, one would likely be worst. You're making a non-argument.
Nessie wrote:Any numbers for gassings a day and at a time?
See above, but it kind of makes you wonder why Hunt hides this information . . .
Nessie wrote:I am not saying it could never have happened. I am saying the narrative is very dubious and I regard Majdanek as like Dachau where a sign tells tourists there may have some experimental gassings.
Kranz says that there's a shortage of documentation. That is NOT what you're saying, and not what Hunt is saying. You said directly and clearly that claims that the gas chambers killed people are propaganda, very dishonest, and Soviet inspired.
Nessie wrote:I would take that to mean bodies from people who died in the barracks.
Could be, might not be. That's why I said it was only problematic - I think that's a reasonable reading. But what's problematic is that we have a witness being vague about the killings - he almost suggests a single bathhouse-gas chamber structure in what he says - which he couldn't see and precise that naked bodies were removed and loaded onto a wagon. That's a heck of a disinfection giving that result . . .
Nessie wrote:This is where I need to more reading.
Yup.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Mon Dec 15, 2014 4:05 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Dec 15, 2014 3:21 am

Nessie,

Some more thoughts on questions you are leaving unaddressed . . . Indeed, the site today appears deceptive to visitors. But the deception which I am thinking of in no way comes from ulterior motives or malevolent intent. Bear with me:

(A) Here is a recent shot of what the complex looked like several years ago; there appear to be two quite separate but similar structures - although the building on the right has a "block" jutting out to the rear (source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majdanek_c ... ation_camp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

Image

(B) This is from a technical drawing - a side view - made shortly after the war, according to Kranz, showing how the pavilion roof overstretched the bunker (source: Kranz Photo 9)

Image

(C) Here is another drawing - from overhead - showing the proximity of the structures conjoined by the pavilion roof (source: M Tregenza in Shermer & Grobman, p 164)

Image

(D) This photo (undated) looks to be taken from the rear of the women's bathhouse facing the gas chambers and showing the "a fragment of the roof shelter and barbed-wire fence as well as wooden walkways, which connected the exit from the female bathhouse with the chambers inside the bunker" (source: Kranz Photo 10)

Image

Looking just at item (A), one has an impression of "open space" and, your word for a different context, "separation," that is, a pair of similar-looking but detached and separate buildings. You've (sort of) stated what you assume based on this contemporary configuration plus a few cherry-picked details about the war-time layout.

But, wow, when comparing (A) to (B)-(D) the stark differences of (A) to the historical site are obvious. (A) is just not anything like the historical sources. One is immediately aware that constructing the history from (A) would be fraught. But why the gap between past and present? Well, the main problem isn’t the new walls in the rear of the barrack on the right. Not that that wall isn’t misleading . . . but what’s most obviously wrong with (A) is the absence of the pavilion roof over much of the complex - a roof that tied the structures together in a way that they aren’t combined today. Why do I say this gap isn't the sort of plot you're adducing? Well, because the roof was damaged during two storms in 1946, plans were made to replace it, the plans never got carried out, as plans sometimes don't.

Let's step back and think about the differences for a moment. Indeed, examining items (B)-(D), one gains a very different impression from what’s conveyed by (A): in the (B)-(D) source material, one sees a single complex made up of a few structures - two similar barracks, a blockhouse at one end, and a pavilion roof over the blockhouse and extending over one end of the barracks. Rather than thinking of spaces "between" the barracks, one would be more likely to think in terms of "inside" the bunker, where all the structures were combined. One would also notice the walkway between one barrack and the blockhouse and probably assume that people walked from one to the other. One would also get a sense of tight quarters and ease of movement over short distances - the “separation” between gas chambers and barrack is perhaps 5 feet - among the conjoined structures, walkway or no walkway, today's walls or no walls, etc.

Now, one could make assumptions, in the absence of other evidence, based largely on what is here at hand. For example, one could assume that the bunker sheltered whatever moved among the three structures. Or one could give priority to flow between the women’s barracks and the gas chamber building - from the barracks to the chambers or vice-versa. It would be difficult to say which, although I’d guess that people weren’t brought into the pavilion as it appears more the destination with two buildings leading to it. Again, who could tell for sure?

In my view, this is what you’ve been doing, following Hunt, arguing firmly for a scenario based on a layout that could suggest different scenarios. Worse, you’ve been arguing this using Hunt’s cherry-picked and misrepresented evidence. Worse, you tell us you're convinced by this superficial exercise - but that you really need to read the sources you're calling propaganda. And, still worse, you’ve not bothered to educate yourself on the sources used in the scholarship you say is wrong!

Let me throw in one more image, this one a satellite view (item E, source: Maplandia):

Image

In this image the likely perimeter of the former pavilion/fenced area can be detected, I think fairly readily. This image reinforces what is shown in items (B)-(D).

So with a war-time layout, studied and taken on its own, allows alternative explanations what are we to do? Well, these are other sources - like testimonies, etc - that will enable us to start to think through which possible scenario was most probable. There's a lot of material on the overall role of the camp, other structures, etc. So I have to add a 5th “worse”: you haven’t even dealt with this sort of evidence, sticking instead to an empty caricature of a physical examination - and still not explaining your original claims about a key exhibit, the photograph of the gas chambers put back right.

As I’ve told you, these gas chambers - an obsession for deniers and seemingly terribly misjudged by you - are not the most significant part of the history of Majdanek, which the obsession (you called it a "fixation," which is also apt) on this one piece of the puzzle obscures. Perhaps one third or so of the people who perished at Majdanek, for example, did so in the gas chambers. But, I get it, denial is all about HGC’s - and disproving them at all costs - and obscuring the rest of the history of the Final Solution in these tedious spool-ups. But I have to say, nothing you’ve written - and, again, these gas chambers are not something I’ve focused a great deal of attention on - has put even a tiny dent in what I have read about them. Not a tiny dent. For you to do so, you have to explain better, based on sources and taking more than a few cherry-picked items into account -

- how you know that the war-time route taken by the prisoners was the one Hunt claims and not the one described by Kranz, Curilla, and a few prisoner testimonies

- how the photo you posted is indicative of the route taken by prisoners in the complex (or why putting put the gas chambers back as they were in the photo and separating them from the rest of the barrack shows entry is from the right (fence side), undress, clothes back out to be disinfected, shower, dress again, out in to the camp)

- why you think that the numbers of murders alleged in these gas chambers would have presented insurmountable challenges, logistical or technical (such as CO poisoning), for the authorities

- what sources you have, besides suspicions and deductions, for the intent of the various modifications to the complex

- why the museum didn’t similarly modify gas chambers 1-6 to, in your view, mislead people into thinking these were gas chambers for extermination actions

- why you came to a conclusion about the murder operations before even thinking about the numbers and scale of the murders involved, that is, the number of people killed alleged to be killed in these gas chambers, how they were selected, when they were killed

- why corpse disposal as I’ve described it is illogical - and why your “logic” (grounded on your not even being sure how far the crematory was from the bunker!) should trump the evidence I cited

- the real differences between Majdanek and other camps - instead of making false equations (they were all death camps) and misstating facts (the murders at Chelmno were well hidden - frig, Patrick Montague's book on Chelmno details locals' reactions to the bits and pieces they witnessed of what was going on!)

- why you accept the distortions, omissions, and dishonesty I’ve pointed out in Hunt’s claims (to take just one, his lying about the distance of the bunker from the corpse disposal areas and his omission of evidence for how corpses were disposed of)

- why you claim that Kranz accepts any evidence for mass murder, including any sign of Zyklon B use, when I’ve showed you he doesn’t, citing specifics in his book, and also where he rebuts Soviet claims

- why you were so quick to conclude that the museum has “erased” the gas chambers from its website

Direct replies to these items are really necessary for substantive discussion.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Mon Dec 15, 2014 7:09 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:To be clear, you implied that the complex was not modified when you wrote
Nessie wrote:If it was purpose built as a homicidal gas chamber . . .
I think Hunt downplays improvisation and repurposing to deceive people.
Nessie wrote:But seeing the original condition and how the chambers are open and separate from the rest of the building,
This is precisely what I don't understand, for 3 reasons. First, the gas chamber structure was under a pavilion roof that both bathhouses abutted; if that roof were there today, the site would "look like" three structures conjoined. Second, the distance is but 5 or so feet from the eastern bathhouse to the gas chamber entry - and there was a wooden landing between the two (see Kranz Photo 10, which I will scan and post if you want). Third, I don't understand, still, why this configuration - in an adapted structure - means that the gas chamber wasn't for killing. I really am struggling with your repetition of this assertion: how hard is it for people to walk some feet off an originally planned pathway?
Nessie wrote:plus the sheer number of revisions the museum has made to the numbers has created a huge cloud of doubt in my mind.
Again, we will have to agree to disagree - if you can't show me how historians utilize inaccurate reconstructions, I still don't get what you're arguing. I do get that you're arguing that the museum display is bad, but I don't get what that says about the documentation Kranz uses, for example, which I've told you is not the museum display.
Treblinka Queen, Caroline Sturdy-Colls visited Madjanek to look at the intact gas chambers. She did this to get an idea of what the gas chambers at Treblinka might've look like. Why would she go to Madjanek to see what they have on display if what they have on display might be an inaccurate reconstruction? Sounds to me like she is a historian utilizing inaccurate reconstructions

Here's possible answers for you:
1. She said it on a television show and scholars lie on television all the time. Show me where she says it in print.

2. The intact gas chambers at Madjanek really are the actual chambers. Everything else may be modified or maybe not. But the gas chambers are real for sure.

3. She says she went to Madjanek to gather background material but that doesn't mean she used the background material. Show me a specific fact that she uses that can be traced back to her visit.

4. She is a forensic investigator, not a historian so whatever she says doesn't count.

5. Whatever lies she told on TV have been corrected on her website or they will be corrected when she publishes her findings on pieces of paper.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Mon Dec 15, 2014 7:41 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mary Q Contrary, the holocaust denier wrote:Carbon oxide? Are you serious?
CO is Carbon monoxide or a "carbon oxide". What, technically, is your complaint?

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/top ... rbon-oxide" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
CO2 is carbon dioxide or a "carbon oxide" as well.
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/top ... rbon-oxide" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Technically my complaint is that they sound like a bunch of idiots by not saying specifically what it is. I'm only giving them the benefit of the doubt because of the well known intellectual prowess of the Polish nation. More likely is that they're not being stupid Polaks, they are being Soviet-style dishonest.

They needed to modify a room they could show to gullible tourists as a gas chamber. They know the official lie is that the Nazis used either cyanide or carbon monoxide to holocaust the Jews. They decided to go with carbon monoxide. Since they didn't have a Soviet submarine engine laying around that they could say was used to generate carbon monoxide rich diesel fumes, they drilled a hole in a wall, stuck a pipe in the hole and attached a tank to the pipe. But they didn't have any tanks that were labelled carbon monoxide so they n-word rigged the display with a tank that was labelled carbon dioxide instead. Then they decided to tell tourists that they used "carbon oxide" gas so they could say CO and CO2. Typical half-ass Holocaust fabrication.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:39 am

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Pyrrho wrote:The sign reads:
Image

Image
This is even more pathetic than the "gas chamber never used as a gas chamber" sign that appears and disappears at Dachau. I don't need to watch Hunt's film. This signage alone proves that the idiots running the Madjanek museum are, well, idiots.

Carbon oxide? Are you serious?

What a joke!!
KOHLENMONOXYD
Kohlenmonoxid
Kohlenstoffmonooxid
Kohlenmonoxyd (veraltet)
Kohlenoxyd (veraltet)
Kohlenoxid (veraltet)

OXYDE DE CARBONE
Oxocarbon
Chemical Compound
An oxocarbon or oxide of carbon is an inorganic compound consisting only of carbon and oxygen. The simplest and most common oxocarbons are carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide. Wikipedia

CARBON MONOXIDE
Other names
Carbon monooxide
Carbonous oxide
Carbon(II) oxide
Carbonyl
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Nessie » Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:53 am

Pyrrho wrote:Nessie, you may be working with outdated sources. More recent:

Image
That just shows how much the Majdanek narrative changes and the changes are always reductions in the numbers killed and the numbers of gas chambers used and the certainty that they were used. It is far more change than any other site. It also shows that Majdanek produces the least reliable evidence.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Nessie » Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:09 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Nessie wrote:So as I said before, Majdanek is plausible for maybe small scale, experimental gassings, but not large scale as in any other death camp.
What do you mean by "death camp"? But, indeed, the numbers exterminated in the gas chambers at Majdanek pale beside the other camps where Jews were killed - see below.
The camps (or parts thereof) where people were taken to exclusively be killed on arrival.
Nessie wrote:I actually cannot find numbers for those gassed, only over numbers of dead. Do you know?
That's because you're relying on Hunt's hysterics and propaganda.
No, it is because in the many sites I went to online I could not find a figure.
From Kranz, p 74, saying that we don't know the precise number:
Ruppert claims that in the period from October through December 1942, 500-600 people were murdered each week in the Majdanek gas chambers. Thus, during the last quarter of that year, a total of 6,000 to 7,200 people were gassed. This number probably also includes Polish prisoners . . . But . . . out of 15,000 Jews brought to Majdanek from the Warsaw ghetto in the summer of 1943, approximately 4,000-5,000 people were gassed.
This gives us a total of maximum 12,000 according to Kranz - for all of 1942 and the middle portion of 1943. That's the number Kranz gives. But let's add in early and later 1943 numbers. If another 8,000 were killed in the gas chambers in the first part of 1943 and 2,000 before the chambers went out of business in the fall, we get 22,000.

Other scholars agree that the numbers are obscure but that the number gassed should be revised upwards.

Two other ways to look at this: The Hoefle telegram gives 24,733 Jews resettled at "L" (Majdanek) in 1942. Some of these were shot; Kranz cites, e.g., killings in the nearby Krepiec woods. Further, at least 30% of the Jewish deaths in the camp - 18,000 - occurred on one day, 3 November 1943, in the Erntefest action. So the maximum number of Jews killed in the gas chambers was about 40,000 - and this is unlikely due to the reasons enumerated earlier.

If we round 22,000 up to 25,000, taking high estimates all around, and the chambers operated August 1942 - October 1943 - let's be conservative and compress this to 13 months or 395 days - we get about 60 people a day, assuming steady killing.

25,000 is < 5% Auschwitz's total, ditto for for Treblinka - and less than 15% of Chelmno or Sobibor. And, by the way, at Chelmno Jews were driven in gas vans from the mansion to the woods, over public roads, with mishaps and public knowledge occurring.
Thanks for the figures.
Nessie wrote:I would need to read Kranz to comment on him.
Right. Since you want to revise him on this, that would be the starting place.
Nessie wrote: the other sources who, as I have already shown provide a very mixed bag of information. That suggests a lot of disagreement and confusion, more so than at any other site. For example
That would seem to indicate a need to dig deeper, not make loose assumptions based on implied traffic flow associated with cherry-picked photos and maps . . .
Nessie wrote: Majdanek did not function like Auschwitz-Birkenau in terms of how the gassings took place, the layout, what was used to gas people and the history of the places in terms of what was claimed to be a gas chamber. Did Majdanek not supposedly have seven chambers attributed to gassings at one time?
You're making quite a leap that actually causes confusion - what you quoted says that the camp was like Auschwitz- Birkenau in being mixed purpose - KL and labor, not primarily an extermination site.
Nessie wrote:That means I can justifiably ask does anyone really know and can anyone be truly sure Majdanek was a camp that ranks along with the other death sites?
Sure you can. But you need to use better reasoning - especially when you draw conclusions from the shallow propaganda you've been citing and then go off on a few, bare lines in an educational website, a key point in which you misinterpret to support your conclusions!
Nessie wrote:So how many killed? As I said I can see a few experimental gassings. Not a death camp.

Now you're confusing yourself with word games. You didn't answer about CO.
Nessie wrote:I am fixating on what the gassing operations were like and Majdanek is the least practical, secure and convincing for mass gassings.
You've not dealt with any of the arguments Kranz gives and I summarized. Saying that something is the least practical, or least successful, by the way, is a sort of tautology: the Red Sox sucked this past season, being the least efficacious team in their division - but they were a major league baseball team. One of the camps where people were killed would probably be the best planned and most efficient, one would likely be worst. You're making a non-argument.
Nessie wrote:Any numbers for gassings a day and at a time?
See above, but it kind of makes you wonder why Hunt hides this information . . .
Hunt has used the denier/revisionist tactic of claiming propaganda and deception means that the source cannot be used to prove any gassings and so there were no gassings. I agree with him up to the the no gassings. On that latter part I am of the opinion Majdanek is like Dachau with a chamber that may have had limited use.
Nessie wrote:I am not saying it could never have happened. I am saying the narrative is very dubious and I regard Majdanek as like Dachau where a sign tells tourists there may have some experimental gassings.
Kranz says that there's a shortage of documentation. That is NOT what you're saying, and not what Hunt is saying. You said directly and clearly that claims that the gas chambers killed people are propaganda, very dishonest, and Soviet inspired.
That applies to the original narrative of millions killed in 7 chambers.
Nessie wrote:I would take that to mean bodies from people who died in the barracks.
Could be, might not be. That's why I said it was only problematic - I think that's a reasonable reading. But what's problematic is that we have a witness being vague about the killings - he almost suggests a single bathhouse-gas chamber structure in what he says - which he couldn't see and precise that naked bodies were removed and loaded onto a wagon. That's a heck of a disinfection giving that result . . .
Nessie wrote:This is where I need to more reading.
Yup.
And more reading is what I will do.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Nessie » Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:23 am

SM, you posts are huge, so I will work my way through them in parts.

Image

That states the CO pipes are post war. Any evidence that they were there when the chambers were in use? It also misses out windows and doors in the structure such as the windows to the shower room and door at the back out of the right hand block.

Image

My point about getting accurate information about that site stands. It appears to be very difficult to get an accurate plan for a building that is still there, unlike Krema I, for which all plans agree.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:36 am

Mary Q Contrary wrote:Treblinka Queen, Caroline Sturdy-Colls visited Madjanek to look at the intact gas chambers. She did this to get an idea of what the gas chambers at Treblinka might've look like. Why would she go to Madjanek to see what they have on display if what they have on display might be an inaccurate reconstruction? Sounds to me like she is a historian utilizing inaccurate reconstructions
When I wrote that one thing that's needed in investigating current structures and landscapes is to
take a painstaking "archaeological" approach, that is, researching through all the layers of modifications to pinpoint the state of the exhibit when the camp was operating and how/when/why it was altered,
one of the people I had in mind was Sturdy Colls, another was Haimi, as they are doing what I suggested at Treblinka and Sobibor respectively.
Mary Q Contrary wrote:Here's possible answers for you:
In addition to being qualified to take an archaeological approach to her comparative investigation, Sturdy Colls said that she wanted to study the operation of the Majdanek gas chambers, using such things as foundations, sections of wall, fragments of evidence. The modifications we've been discussing here - to more macro elements of the site and structures - I would expect she'd know or discover were modifications, as Kranz has said (also the modifications to the interior, which we've not discussed). She will, of course, not be able to study a missing pavilion roof nor would that roof help her understand the questions for which she indicated she wants points of comparison. That the structures were left standing at Majdanek, unlike those at the AR camps, gave her, in the preliminary stages of her Treblinka work, a place to examine the kinds of features, like construction materials, she was seeking to compare.

A modest suggestion: use the wayback machine to go through the original RODOH and look for posts by pooshoodog; look through the new RODOH for posts by Bernard. That guy knew how to use parody and irony - and was funny as heck. Studying his material and techniques could improve your shtick.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by iwh » Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:42 am

I just had a look at my copy of Hilberg's book (1973 edition). He states that those gassed at Majdanek ( in their "tens of thousands" ) were murdered using Carbon Monoxide (CO).
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Dec 15, 2014 11:17 am

Mary Q Contrary wrote:Technically my complaint is that they sound like a bunch of idiots by not saying specifically what it is. ...
It's already singular, in a foreign language,

Polish
Carbon oxide = tlenek węgla
Carbon Monoxide = tlenek węgla
Carbon Dioxide = dwutlenek węgla

It is my guess that the English translation has simply been taken from the Polish original, by someone who didn't look up English language chemistry terminology.

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Dec 15, 2014 11:27 am

Nessie wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Nessie wrote:So as I said before, Majdanek is plausible for maybe small scale, experimental gassings, but not large scale as in any other death camp.
What do you mean by "death camp"? But, indeed, the numbers exterminated in the gas chambers at Majdanek pale beside the other camps where Jews were killed - see below.
The camps (or parts thereof) where people were taken to exclusively be killed on arrival.
Ok, thanks. I cannot answer with %'s but the selection process which Kranz describes at Majdanek doesn't quite square with your definition: the selections encompassed those too sick to work on arrival and prisoners chosen in continuous "pruning" operations throughout the camp (here the camp did what was done at Auschwitz as well - and at other KLs, where the "unfit" were pruned and killed on the spot or sent to Auschwitz, e.g., to be killed).

I draw the conclusion from Kranz, summarized below, that selections within the camp to "cull" the unfit, which you didn't mention, made up a very significant portion of the gassings.

Kranz cites what he believes are two documented cases of gas-chamber execution of Jews on arrival in fall 1942 - 9 November transport from Majdan Tatarski (children along with some men and women), Miedzyrzec Podlaski "probably" similar, also in November. He also cites "limited eyewitness accounts" for some other executions of Jews arriving from various towns, maybe without a selection. During this period, the SS doctors and camp officials made regular selections of prisoners in the camp. Sick prisoners not improving were taken to the gas chambers; there was a selection during an epidemic in December in which, according to a witness quoted by Kranz, the weak and sick were sent directly to the gas chamber.

During 1943 the predominant pattern described by Kranz was selections within the camp, many of them in the area of the camp called the Rosengarten, which was near barrack 42. He quotes a Polish eyewitness that healthy, young prisoners were sent to one bathhouse while "the elderly, ill and youngsters (without their mothers) - to another," presumably the one with the ramp connecting it to the gas chambers. Kranz further mentions selections on the coal field at Interfield I during April-May 1943 as part of the Warsaw operation at that time (the numbers assembled for selection were too great for the Rosengarten); in this action, children were not all killed on arrival but held for a time in a barrack in field V before being gassed in the so-called Kinderaktion, similar actions were carried out for Jewish children from Rejowiec and Bialystok). Kranz describes a pattern in which the camp was combed for people with leg problems, "visible wounds" or obvious illness. Again, there were regular selections in the sick room (there was a special holding room in field III called Gammelblocks for prisoners selected in this manner; some of the prisoners were killed in this room rather than sent to the gas chambers) as well as selections of those who appeared unfit around the camp grounds. Also during 1943 women were selected, often during roll calls - to be taken that evening to the gas chambers. According to Kranz (this is why I believe the estimates I gave for numbers gassed may be inflated), the selections of women and children in the camp peaked only during late May and early June and August; on the other hand, there is some contradictory testimony that the selections were not great through to October. Kranz warns that the testimonies are often incorrect with regard to gassing, as the witness was able to see the loading but not know where the truck took the prisoners. (Kranz, pp 48-55)

I hope we've already established that Majdanek was not operated for the same purposes and in the same way as, e.g., Treblinka, and that Majdanek's killing operations were on a much smaller scale than, e.g., Auschwitz. When it came time to liquidate Jewish prisoners in the Erntefest action, mass shootings were employed at Majdanek; my assumption is that one reason for deciding in favor of shooting is the very objections you're raising about the scale of the gas chambers there. Tregenza made the point about extermination at Majdanek as follows (quoted in Shermer & Grobman p 164):
Majdanek was not a major gassing camp on the order of camps like Auschwitz. . . . I hesitate to say that there was a regular gassing program there.

This statement was made in 1996.
Nessie wrote:No, it is because in the many sites I went to online I could not find a figure.
What I meant was that you tell us Hunt's account is convincing yet he apparently doesn't even address a key point.

I think one reason for the proliferation you find of different information is that the general information sources are still picking up detail from sources, like Marszalek, which have been, er, revised on key points by the specialists.
Nessie wrote:Thanks for the figures.
You're welcome. I believe that the data undermine much of Hunt's tone of hysteria regarding this camp and his attempts to obfuscate its nature.
Nessie wrote:Hunt has used the denier/revisionist tactic of claiming propaganda and deception means that the source cannot be used to prove any gassings and so there were no gassings. I agree with him up to the the no gassings. On that latter part I am of the opinion Majdanek is like Dachau with a chamber that may have had limited use.
Nessie, Kranz's book is really short, and I've cited a great deal from that little book that challenges what you've taken from Hunt's arguments about the gassings. I've also, I hope, shown you that there can be different reasons (e.g., the missing roof) for "deception" - yet Hunt cherrypicks what he wants to support his preconceived notion. The camp's historians have actually revised the accounts of the camp - not subjected them to another negation-agitprop exercise in Hunt's manner. I've given you a number of reasons to reconsider Hunt's claims and your thoughts on this.
Nessie wrote:That applies to the original narrative of millions killed in 7 chambers.
That isn't what you wrote. And the original claims, also rubbished by Kranz, are not at issue. You wrote that Hunt "makes a very good case that it was not a death camp where people were gassed in homicidal gas chambers" and that Hunt's "point about reversing the direction of travel from the way the museum has it and the combining of the chambers with the rest of the building, which was not the case during the war is very good evidence the museum has been very dishonest." These statements have nothing whatsoever to do with the original claim. You seem to be backtracking here a bit . . . and you've still not explained why you found the photo of the gas chambers shown the right way convincing for your belief that they were not used to murder people.
Nessie wrote:And more reading is what I will do.
Good deal. I have to say I don't share the revisionist fascination for this topic. But I do wish that in all their apoplexy over HGC's, they'd be more honest. I will try finding time to re-read two other sources I have, besides Kranz; the reason I've pounded on Kranz is simple - I started this asking in essence why I should credit Hunt over Kranz, and I'm not seeing why I should.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Dec 15, 2014 12:28 pm

Nessie wrote:SM, you posts are huge,
Sorry. No urgency to deal with them all at once . . .
Nessie wrote:That states the CO pipes are post war. Any evidence that they were there when the chambers were in use? It also misses out windows and doors in the structure such as the windows to the shower room and door at the back out of the right hand block.
It does indeed, but the text on the following page, quoted from Tregenza, describes these pipes introducing the CO into the "front" small room (labeled B1, following I think Pressac's nomenclature) and says they were perforated and made of metal and about 30 cm about the floor along 3 walls and part of the 4th, as shown in the diagram in fact. Also, Tregenza says that room A on the diagram "was fitted with a CO gas pipe, but of a smaller dimension." Perhaps the current pipes are new ones and the originals were removed at some point? I don't know.

The CO issue is important in that I can think of no argument to be made that CO was used for disinfection of clothing. Pressac says that CO cylinders were found in the side room in the bunker after liberation.

I agree about some details being missing on Tregenza's diagram. My purpose in using the diagram was to speak to the "deception" issue you raised - the diagram shows proximity where you earlier spoke about separation that supposedly has been falsified for propaganda reasons. As noted, the CO issue and others you raise are important, but I don't want them to serve as a launching pad to ignore the question of your relying on Hunt's cherry-picked and misleading rendition of the complex to draw conclusions about how it operated during 1942-1943 and a supposed propaganda exercise by the authorities.

So I am eager for you at some point to deal with the numerous questions I've asked since my first response to you about all that.
Nessie wrote:My point about getting accurate information about that site stands. It appears to be very difficult to get an accurate plan for a building that is still there, unlike Krema I, for which all plans agree.
Kranz agrees, saying that the documents are sparse. He cites, as I think I've said (maybe not!), the original plans for the disinfection facility and for the gas chamber building, a document concerning the construction, and witness statements about the construction. As noted, his book is short, so he doesn't detail these items. Most of the documents he reproduces relate to the issue of estimates for the overall numbers of prisoners coming to the camp and perishing there. Another issue - which explains why in my case I haven't read so much about Majdanek - is that the specialist literature is largely written in Polish. That explains why you and I may not resolve these issues, almost perforce, to our satisfaction.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Dec 15, 2014 12:44 pm

Nessie wrote:. . . the changes are always reductions in the numbers killed . . .
This is simply not true. In 1961, as I've told David over and over, Hilberg already had an estimate of 50,000 at Majdanek. Quoting from a post I made in another thread:
Last, Hilberg's number apparently wasn't in need of too much revision - basically what Kranz did, over fifty years after Hilberg's first edition, was confirm that Hilberg was on track. And show why other numbers were erroneous. With a sound enough argument that no one's yet refuted it. The USHMM Encyclopedia of Camps and Ghettos entry for Majdanek cites Kranz and gives an estimate in the Hilberg-Scheffler-Kranz range - but, guess what, says too that this number may yet be revised. (Because research and thinking continue . . .)

FYI - Scheffler (1985) 50-60,000, Marszalek (1994) 80,000. As I told David, the numbers have indeed varied - but in the 50,000 to 200,000 range (if we include Lukaswkiewicz's dated 1948 estimate) - without there being an "official" high number consistently ratcheted down.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by iwh » Mon Dec 15, 2014 1:07 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote: During 1943 the predominant pattern described by Kranz was selections within the camp, many of them in the area of the camp called the Rosengarten, which was near barrack 42. He quotes a Polish eyewitness that healthy, young prisoners were sent to one bathhouse while "the elderly, ill and youngsters (without their mothers) - to another," presumably the one with the ramp connecting it to the gas chambers. Kranz further mentions selections on the coal field at Interfield I during April-May 1943 as part of the Warsaw operation at that time (the numbers assembled for selection were too great for the Rosengarten); in this action, children were not all killed on arrival but held for a time in a barrack in field V before being gassed in the so-called Kinderaktion, similar actions were carried out for Jewish children from Rejowiec and Bialystok). Kranz describes a pattern in which the camp was combed for people with leg problems, "visible wounds" or obvious illness. Again, there were regular selections in the sick room (there was a special holding room in field III called Gammelblocks for prisoners selected in this manner; some of the prisoners were killed in this room rather than sent to the gas chambers) as well as selections of those who appeared unfit around the camp grounds. Also during 1943 women were selected, often during roll calls - to be taken that evening to the gas chambers. According to Kranz (this is why I believe the estimates I gave for numbers gassed may be inflated), the selections of women and children in the camp peaked only during late May and early June and August; on the other hand, there is some contradictory testimony that the selections were not great through to October. Kranz warns that the testimonies are often incorrect with regard to gassing, as the witness was able to see the loading but not know where the truck took the prisoners. (Kranz, pp 48-55)
...also mentioned in detail by Martin Gilbert in "The Holocaust". He gives each individual source in the notes found at the back of the book.

Lena Berg gives the account of women being sorted for the gas chambers because of swollen legs and scratched bodies

Janina Latowicz was witness to children being sent to the "rose garden".
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Dec 15, 2014 1:38 pm

iwh wrote: ...also mentioned in detail by Martin Gilbert in "The Holocaust". He gives each individual source in the notes found at the back of the book.

Lena Berg gives the account of women being sorted for the gas chambers because of swollen legs and scratched bodies

Janina Latowicz was witness to children being sent to the "rose garden".
Very informative. This means we have multiple testimonies that we know about for the swollen legs and visible injuries on female prisoners - Kranz quotes Rywka Rybak's memoir on this and references trial witness interrogations in the case of Elsa Ehrlich, Aglaida Brudkowska. Likewise, he quotes Jerzy Kwiatkowski, a Polish prisoner, on the Rosengarten (and footnotes supporting sources without quoting them).
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Nessie » Mon Dec 15, 2014 2:13 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:.....
- how you know that the war-time route taken by the prisoners was the one Hunt claims and not the one described by Kranz, Curilla, and a few prisoner testimonies
I am going by the descriptions of those who were interviewed in the various videos I have seen who describe going into the building, stripping, showering and getting new clothes.
- how the photo you posted is indicative of the route taken by prisoners in the complex (or why putting put the gas chambers back as they were in the photo and separating them from the rest of the barrack shows entry is from the right (fence side), undress, clothes back out to be disinfected, shower, dress again, out in to the camp)
I accept either way round would work. I think any restoration should show the place as it was. Changing it is part of the suspicious propaganda by the Soviets.
- why you think that the numbers of murders alleged in these gas chambers would have presented insurmountable challenges, logistical or technical (such as CO poisoning), for the authorities
It could be done, I am not disputing that. The biggest issues are security, privacy and body disposal. That is why I am dubious of present claims.
- what sources you have, besides suspicions and deductions, for the intent of the various modifications to the complex
I have used various online sources, such as HEART, USHMM, ARC, the museum site and Wiki. As for the intentions of those doing the modifications, it was to evidence that over a million people were gassed at the site.
- why the museum didn’t similarly modify gas chambers 1-6 to, in your view, mislead people into thinking these were gas chambers for extermination actions
They are inside buildings, not outside.
- why you came to a conclusion about the murder operations before even thinking about the numbers and scale of the murders involved, that is, the number of people killed alleged to be killed in these gas chambers, how they were selected, when they were killed
I told you that Majdanek was the first place I debated about with Bob on this site. This is not a conclusion reached after having only watched Hunt's video. It is based on a lot of doubt and realisation the Majdanek narrative is the most mixed up of all of the places i have looked at.
- why corpse disposal as I’ve described it is illogical - and why your “logic” (grounded on your not even being sure how far the crematory was from the bunker!) should trump the evidence I cited
You have cited a witness to bodies being taken from barracks to make out they were bodies that have been gassed. There were loads of barracks at Majdanek and many died in them, so they would have to be taken to the crematorium. Do you have evidence of continual transports of thousands of bodies from the bath and delousing building across the camp?
- the real differences between Majdanek and other camps - instead of making false equations (they were all death camps) and misstating facts (the murders at Chelmno were well hidden - frig, Patrick Montague's book on Chelmno details locals' reactions to the bits and pieces they witnessed of what was going on!)
Some locals knew what was going on at TII. I am sure that is the case for all of the camps.
- why you accept the distortions, omissions, and dishonesty I’ve pointed out in Hunt’s claims (to take just one, his lying about the distance of the bunker from the corpse disposal areas and his omission of evidence for how corpses were disposed of)
I don't. These are issues I had always puzzled about. Hunt has been the catalyst for me to come forward and say that of all the camp narratives that I know of Majdanek is the least satisfactory.
- why you claim that Kranz accepts any evidence for mass murder, including any sign of Zyklon B use, when I’ve showed you he doesn’t, citing specifics in his book, and also where he rebuts Soviet claims
Where did I make that claim? I have not make such a claim.
- why you were so quick to conclude that the museum has “erased” the gas chambers from its website
The site's home page has no link to gas chambers. So I used the site's search facility and got no return for gas chambers. I posted that search result which you said was a blank page, but it was the no return that had ended up in Polish for some reason.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Nessie » Mon Dec 15, 2014 2:35 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:......

The camps (or parts thereof) where people were taken to exclusively be killed on arrival.
Ok, thanks. I cannot answer with %'s but the selection process which Kranz describes at Majdanek doesn't quite square with your definition: the selections encompassed those too sick to work on arrival and prisoners chosen in continuous "pruning" operations throughout the camp (here the camp did what was done at Auschwitz as well - and at other KLs, where the "unfit" were pruned and killed on the spot or sent to Auschwitz, e.g., to be killed).

I draw the conclusion from Kranz, summarized below, that selections within the camp to "cull" the unfit, which you didn't mention, made up a very significant portion of the gassings.

Kranz cites what he believes are two documented cases of gas-chamber execution of Jews on arrival in fall 1942 - 9 November transport from Majdan Tatarski (children along with some men and women), Miedzyrzec Podlaski "probably" similar, also in November. He also cites "limited eyewitness accounts" for some other executions of Jews arriving from various towns, maybe without a selection. During this period, the SS doctors and camp officials made regular selections of prisoners in the camp. Sick prisoners not improving were taken to the gas chambers; there was a selection during an epidemic in December in which, according to a witness quoted by Kranz, the weak and sick were sent directly to the gas chamber.
During my debate with Bob back in 2012, here

http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... =+majdanek" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I first came across Majdanek. Bob put up a good case then about how it was used for clothes and not people, so much so I did my first 'reverse' proof post here; "Prove to me that the Gas chambers, whether at Auchwitz Birkenau, Sachsenhausen, Treblinka and Majdanek were only used to delouse clothes."

http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... =+majdanek" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I pointed out that the Majdanek chambers could well have been used for clothes, but Bob could not rule out for certain no person was killed in them as well, as say an experiment. I had not thought of the possibility of gassings of those deemed unfit for work. If Kranz states that there may have only been a very transports that went straight to the gas chambers (and he not certain of them) then that makes sense. I just could not see how hundreds, let alone thousands could be taken from their transport, herded to the chambers and gassed in an operation such as at TII.
During 1943 the predominant pattern described by Kranz was selections within the camp, many of them in the area of the camp called the Rosengarten, which was near barrack 42. He quotes a Polish eyewitness that healthy, young prisoners were sent to one bathhouse while "the elderly, ill and youngsters (without their mothers) - to another," presumably the one with the ramp connecting it to the gas chambers. Kranz further mentions selections on the coal field at Interfield I during April-May 1943 as part of the Warsaw operation at that time (the numbers assembled for selection were too great for the Rosengarten); in this action, children were not all killed on arrival but held for a time in a barrack in field V before being gassed in the so-called Kinderaktion, similar actions were carried out for Jewish children from Rejowiec and Bialystok). Kranz describes a pattern in which the camp was combed for people with leg problems, "visible wounds" or obvious illness. Again, there were regular selections in the sick room (there was a special holding room in field III called Gammelblocks for prisoners selected in this manner; some of the prisoners were killed in this room rather than sent to the gas chambers) as well as selections of those who appeared unfit around the camp grounds. Also during 1943 women were selected, often during roll calls - to be taken that evening to the gas chambers. According to Kranz (this is why I believe the estimates I gave for numbers gassed may be inflated), the selections of women and children in the camp peaked only during late May and early June and August; on the other hand, there is some contradictory testimony that the selections were not great through to October. Kranz warns that the testimonies are often incorrect with regard to gassing, as the witness was able to see the loading but not know where the truck took the prisoners. (Kranz, pp 48-55)

I hope we've already established that Majdanek was not operated for the same purposes and in the same way as, e.g., Treblinka, and that Majdanek's killing operations were on a much smaller scale than, e.g., Auschwitz. When it came time to liquidate Jewish prisoners in the Erntefest action, mass shootings were employed at Majdanek; my assumption is that one reason for deciding in favor of shooting is the very objections you're raising about the scale of the gas chambers there. Tregenza made the point about extermination at Majdanek as follows (quoted in Shermer & Grobman p 164):
Majdanek was not a major gassing camp on the order of camps like Auschwitz. . . . I hesitate to say that there was a regular gassing program there.

This statement was made in 1996.
I had not heard of that until now.
Nessie wrote:No, it is because in the many sites I went to online I could not find a figure.
What I meant was that you tell us Hunt's account is convincing yet he apparently doesn't even address a key point.

I think one reason for the proliferation you find of different information is that the general information sources are still picking up detail from sources, like Marszalek, which have been, er, revised on key points by the specialists.
Nessie wrote:Thanks for the figures.
You're welcome. I believe that the data undermine much of Hunt's tone of hysteria regarding this camp and his attempts to obfuscate its nature.
Nessie wrote:Hunt has used the denier/revisionist tactic of claiming propaganda and deception means that the source cannot be used to prove any gassings and so there were no gassings. I agree with him up to the the no gassings. On that latter part I am of the opinion Majdanek is like Dachau with a chamber that may have had limited use.
Nessie, Kranz's book is really short, and I've cited a great deal from that little book that challenges what you've taken from Hunt's arguments about the gassings. I've also, I hope, shown you that there can be different reasons (e.g., the missing roof) for "deception" - yet Hunt cherrypicks what he wants to support his preconceived notion. The camp's historians have actually revised the accounts of the camp - not subjected them to another negation-agitprop exercise in Hunt's manner. I've given you a number of reasons to reconsider Hunt's claims and your thoughts on this.
The main one is using the chambers for on site killings as opposed to using it as a final destination and straight to gassing.
Nessie wrote:That applies to the original narrative of millions killed in 7 chambers.
That isn't what you wrote. And the original claims, also rubbished by Kranz, are not at issue. You wrote that Hunt "makes a very good case that it was not a death camp where people were gassed in homicidal gas chambers" and that Hunt's "point about reversing the direction of travel from the way the museum has it and the combining of the chambers with the rest of the building, which was not the case during the war is very good evidence the museum has been very dishonest." These statements have nothing whatsoever to do with the original claim. You seem to be backtracking here a bit . . . and you've still not explained why you found the photo of the gas chambers shown the right way convincing for your belief that they were not used to murder people.
Nessie wrote:And more reading is what I will do.
Good deal. I have to say I don't share the revisionist fascination for this topic. But I do wish that in all their apoplexy over HGC's, they'd be more honest. I will try finding time to re-read two other sources I have, besides Kranz; the reason I've pounded on Kranz is simple - I started this asking in essence why I should credit Hunt over Kranz, and I'm not seeing why I should.
The evidence of using the chambers for small scale gassings of prisoners in the camp makes sense. I shall read more.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Dec 15, 2014 3:09 pm

Nessie wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:.....
- how you know that the war-time route taken by the prisoners was the one Hunt claims and not the one described by Kranz, Curilla, and a few prisoner testimonies
I am going by the descriptions of those who were interviewed in the various videos I have seen who describe going into the building, stripping, showering and getting new clothes.
? we are not talking about those who survived (that is, were subject to the disinfection procedure) but those who didn't survive, right? Can you explain more?
Nessie wrote:I accept either way round would work. I think any restoration should show the place as it was. Changing it is part of the suspicious propaganda by the Soviets.
I view this as quite different to your starting point which was an assumption of a war-time route shown by the gas chamber photo - from which you deemed the museum guilty of bad faith.

Further, why didn't the Soviets similarly trump up the other sites they claimed? As with the missing roof, there may be an innocuous explanation.
Nessie wrote:It could be done, I am not disputing that. The biggest issues are security, privacy and body disposal. That is why I am dubious of present claims.
Let's focus first on body disposal, then address security/privacy.

I've given you some detail on the body disposal process which you seemed unaware of. You didn't mention the original crematory or the nearby incineration sites. Further, I described both the relative ease of transport of bodies to the more distant, new crematory (just as people had to be brought there who died elsewhere in the camp), the numbers involved (fractional to Treblinka, Auschwitz, etc), testimonies, and the improvised, re-purposed nature of the process. I really don't know how to reply to your continued mention of this issue, since you've really only dealt with one of the witnesses. How hard is it to drive bodies of the numbers we're discussing a mile? Why did Hunt say "cart" when the evidence shows motor vehicles being used?
Nessie wrote:I have used various online sources, such as HEART, USHMM, ARC, the museum site and Wiki.
Not what I asked- I asked about evidence for a specific claim you've repeated. By the way, I am extra careful with HEART, ARC, and Wiki given experience with them.
Nessie wrote:As for the intentions of those doing the modifications, it was to evidence that over a million people were gassed at the site.
Again, your deduction is not a source. There could be other reasons to (a) not restore the roof and (b) for building the walls than to trump up a case - especially when at that time, the Soviets thought, or lied, I don't know which, they were dealing with 6 or 7 gas chambers.
Nessie wrote:They are inside buildings, not outside.
This answer speaks to why they didn't do the same sorts of modifications not to why they didn't jimmy these buildings. It's a non-answer.
Nessie wrote:I told you that Majdanek was the first place I debated about with Bob on this site. This is not a conclusion reached after having only watched Hunt's video. It is based on a lot of doubt and realisation the Majdanek narrative is the most mixed up of all of the places i have looked at.
Right, but you told us that it was Hunt's claims that you found finally convincing - and none of your posts on this seemed to show awareness of the major purposes of the camp and the scale/scope involved in the gassing operation. To remind you, what you wrote in the OP was
I watch Eric Hunt's Majdanek film . . . and have come to the conclusion . . .
Forgive me for reacting to your initial statement but that is what I wonder about: what you find convincing in Hunt's "work." Why you cited Hunt's work as leading you to your conclusions. That's what you did in the OP and elsewhere. Nor did you bother to cite any of the clear and intentional deception Hunt is guilty of on his webpage, for example.
Nessie wrote:You have cited a witness to bodies being taken from barracks to make out they were bodies that have been gassed.
No, I said that this might be a problem for your interpretation, that the language was not clear, and that it could be interpreted in other ways. I wrote "Maybe not." Please be accurate in what you allege. But I also cited other witnesses (e.g., Zygmunt Godlewksi - you replied you needed to do more reading! after already having concluded that the logistics were a major concern) AND I explained about how the supposed problem was solved and also where bodies were actually disposed of, according to Kranz and Mattogno/Graf.
Nessie wrote:There were loads of barracks at Majdanek and many died in them, so they would have to be taken to the crematorium.
The implication of this is that the crematory would have to be . . . er . . . somewhere not near everyone being killed or dying. Which is part of the point.
Nessie wrote:Do you have evidence of continual transports of thousands of bodies from the bath and delousing building across the camp?
I shared what I know and you said you needed to do more reading. But you continue to ignore that the original crematory, operating in the early part of the gassing activity, was not about a mile away and that other sites, very close by, were used to burn corpses, according to Kranz. You said the layout was odd, I explained the various factors, including the repurposing and the solution of using motor vehicles, and you said you needed to read more. But you'd already said this was a key problem. You're confusing on this topic.
Nessie wrote:Some locals knew what was going on at TII. I am sure that is the case for all of the camps.
That is only part of the point: you said Majdanek was an outlier and cited Chelmno, but Chelmno had victims being driven in gas vans over public roads.
Nessie wrote:I don't. These are issues I had always puzzled about. Hunt has been the catalyst for me to come forward and say that of all the camp narratives that I know of Majdanek is the least satisfactory.
Again, that's not what you said. You said the museum is guilty of propaganda, bad faith, dishonesty and intentionally trumping up charges. Based on your viewing Hunt's video, which, you said, led you to conclude all these things.
Nessie wrote:
- why you claim that Kranz accepts any evidence for mass murder, including any sign of Zyklon B use, when I’ve showed you he doesn’t, citing specifics in his book, and also where he rebuts Soviet claims
Where did I make that claim? I have not make such a claim.
True, to be strictly literal, you didn't mention Kranz specifically but you did so accuse the authorities - of which Kranz is one:
the Soviets/Poles/museum authorities took what they found and modified it to make it look like the delousing chambers were gas chambers
and
no wonder everything that was lockable and had some staining became a homicidal gas chamber. . . .
If I misinterpreted your comments, and you are not including Kranz in the group of museum directors and officials who are responsible for the deception you see as intentional, I apologize. But I will say, that's been the tenor of your remarks throughout and you have mentioned the "museum authorities" and Kranz is the director . . . so . . .
Nessie wrote:The site's home page has no link to gas chambers.
So what?
Nessie wrote:So I used the site's search facility and got no return for gas chambers. I posted that search result which you said was a blank page, but it was the no return that had ended up in Polish for some reason.
Again, you must recognize the folly of all this. It appears that you were searching for something to back your claims and grasped at the slender reed of a boggled search. Maybe not, but that is what it looks like. Nessie, I'm not trying to be an ass. I appreciate that you put out a thought for us to kick at. I appreciate that. But I think you overstated it, leapt to conclusions, and didn't think through Hunt's material. That's really it, except to say that you now seem to be circling the wagon a bit, which is not like you. So I don't want this to turn into point/counterpoint without give and take. I am just stating what comes through. And I do appreciate your openness to a long and detailed discussion and genuinely thinking differently about this.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Dec 15, 2014 3:14 pm

Nessie, your last post - I've got to take care of some stuff, I read it but probably won't get to it til this evening. I've got thoughts but don't want to rush writing them down. Later, SM
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Dec 15, 2014 3:31 pm

Just a quick thought here about the transportation of bodies across/along camp: If dead bodies were collected in various places continuously and brought to the crematorium, why would any witness of any such transport not have thought they were the "regularly deceased" from all over the camp?
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Dec 15, 2014 3:37 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:Just a quick thought here about the transportation of bodies across/along camp: If dead bodies were collected in various places continuously and brought to the crematorium, why would any witness of such a transport not have thought they were the "regularly deceased" from all over the camp?
Indeed, very good point, and it seems reasonable to assume that this was the case for many prisoners, counter to this are Kranz's reports of rumors around the camp that the tractors at night were associated with the gassings (Kwiatkowski) and apparent knowledge of when newcomers to the camp were finished off on arrival (Gorski). Also important is Godlewski's testimony, mentioned earlier, as seeing the corpses in the gas chambers.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Dec 15, 2014 3:39 pm

In fact, having the new (I think?) crematorium not directly at the bathhouse facility would have made it much less suspicious.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Nessie » Mon Dec 15, 2014 4:14 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:Just a quick thought here about the transportation of bodies across/along camp: If dead bodies were collected in various places continuously and brought to the crematorium, why would any witness of any such transport not have thought they were the "regularly deceased" from all over the camp?
Or they thought many of the transports had come from the gassings, but were actually for other places about the camp.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Dec 15, 2014 4:22 pm

Nessie wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:Just a quick thought here about the transportation of bodies across/along camp: If dead bodies were collected in various places continuously and brought to the crematorium, why would any witness of any such transport not have thought they were the "regularly deceased" from all over the camp?
Or they thought many of the transports had come from the gassings, but were actually for other places about the camp.
I'd think surviving camp life made them aware of the frequent deaths and their various causes all over the place?
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Nessie » Mon Dec 15, 2014 5:00 pm

I had it in mind that Majdanek was like the other death camps where trains or whatever transport would unload their human cargo and herd 100s if not 1000s to their deaths. The standard sites such as Wiki etc that I admit to using do not do anything to dispel that as their entries are rather vague. I had not noticed just how vague they were until I had watched Hunt's video and re read the sources and others I could find.

Wiki -

"Majdanek was refurbished as a killing center around March 1942. The gassing was performed in plain view of other inmates, without as much as a fence around the buildings. Another popular killing method was execution by the squads of Trawnikis.[1] According to the Majdanek museum, the gas chambers began operation in September 1942.[6] and when killings were carried out, the methods used were either using Zyklon B or with the fumes from the captured Soviet tank engines."

Nizkor -

"MAIDANEK. Extermination camp located in German-occupied Poland about 2 miles from Lublin. It was regarded as in the same class as Belzec and Sobibor. Like Belzec, Maidanek was originally a labor camp but was transformed into a death camp ... Unlike Belzec, it had some industrial activity. Non-Jewish prisoners were admitted. At first death was induced by carbon monoxide asphyxiation, but later hydrocyanic, or prussic, acid fumes were used following successful tests at Belzec. It is estimated that 1.5 million inmates were gassed at Maidanek.* After Russian troops discovered the camp on July 23, 1944, Konstatin Simonov, a Soviet writer, wrote a full account of the death camp for Pravda. In a special issue the London Illustrated News published photographs of the gas chambers and ovens at Maidanek." * Maidanek victim estimates are unreliable; the total is probably far less than the one provided above.

USHMM -

"As the Belzec killing center was closing down in autumn 1942, around 25,000 Jews who might have been destined for that killing center were sent to Majdanek. It is not clear whether the Germans killed these Jews immediately at Majdanek or whether they registered them as prisoners. If not killed upon arrival, virtually all of these Jews died or were killed over the next six months."

HEART -

"The entire area of the “bunker” containing the three gas chambers was surrounded by a barbed wire and wooden fence and was covered by an extra high roof. Initially this roof had been planned to form part of the process of disinfecting clothing in the gas chambers, but when mass extermination began at Majdanek, the roof took on a camouflage role. There was also a gate in the wooden fence through which trucks could enter the “bunker”.

So what I am being told here is that above is misleading. The gas chambers killed those who worked at the camps and USHMM is the most accurate of all the sources, but it is not sure of itself.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Dec 15, 2014 6:43 pm

I think it's a 'both/and'. Some were selected and killed on arrival, others during their stay at camp.

If you read the USHMM page, "undetermined" and "not clear" is mentioned. There just isn't as much available as on the other camps and I can accept that much misinformation ensued. But it doesn't seem to have stayed at that, and corrections are ongoing. Actually, to me the dearth of information (in English) seems to show that the camp was not necessarily counted as one of the extermination camps from early on.

But I do not the get the impression that there is any disinformation disseminated.

Except by deniers.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Dec 15, 2014 7:50 pm

I remembered Irene Shapiro's account of Lublin and Majdanek.
http://collections.ushmm.org/oh_findingaids/RG-50.233.0125_trs_en.pdf wrote:A: Yes. And we were taken to Lublin. Katzov Lublin. It’s known as (?). And that is the first time that I realized that they annihilate people in the way they said, because I saw cans of Zyklon B gas right in front of me -- a pile. (?).

Q: Were you the only one to see this?

A: No, we all saw it. And we also had children removed from their parents and taken to the place in front of which was the Zyklon B gas, screaming mothers, mothers trying to go with children and some of us screaming, “No, you can have other children! For the nation.” We didn’t let them. Some went, some stayed. We were separated from them in that Zukplaza (?) which was in Lublin depot and my friends volunteered themselves. Call went for young ladies to work in such and such a factory and all the women started beautifying themselves with the kerchiefs. Something told me, “Don’t do that.” Well, those friends of mine went and never came back. That was one other ploy. See, they didn’t have a full capacity for all these exterminations. We had such a big transport. So they minimized it. They used all kinds of things. They would take you part way in the train and gas -- CO -- carbon monoxide or whatever in the train or an exhaust or shot them.

collections.ushmm, p 28 wrote: Q: That means you all continued on after you stopped at Treblinka?

A: When we disembarked in Lublin, that is when I realized that we were so very few. That means that the rest either disappeared with the first action -- it was (?) big ghetto or were already separated and had gone on to Treblinka and I know that my neighbors, young people, a boy and a girl, my age, went with their grandparents, in a wheelchair, so obviously I knew what happened. And my father and my uncle came out of -- you never knew what it was -- steam was coming out from both. Sometimes the steam meant that there was steam coming down as well -- hot water coming for a wash-up.

Q: You’re talking about Lublin?

A: Yes. We were all given -- no, no, we were not all given baths. My par – our men were given a bath. That included my cousin, my uncle, my boyfriend and my father, and they got out. We saw them. And they were brought to Majdanek. Majdanek was behind, it was an adjunct, sort of a part, outlying area of the (?) of the concentration camp. We were walked to that concentration camp without the bath.

Q: The women?

A: The women. And we were placed in a square with lights shining on us. We were walked with the dogs and I was looking around saying, “How do I escape? I’m going to my death. How do I? Do I go to a German and tell him a story? “You know, I’m an adopted child. I’m not Jewish. ” Maybe I can befriend a dog. I don’t know. How do I go? Where do I go?” Nowhere. I got to that square and I became frantic because I saw the steam houses. I was sure this was the gas chamber, and no escape. And again, around the friendly faces of the Ukrainians, I tried to talk Ukrainian to them. “Oh, you know, I’m really -- “ I was just out of my wits. Towards the morning I said to myself. “I think I’m going to live.” And all of a sudden I came to my mother and I said, “You know what, I have a feeling we’re going to live. Now let’s stop that.” Oh, my God, she was petrified. I said, “Uh, uh, something tells me I’m going to live.” And I turned around to the others; I said, “Let’s stop being stupid. If they wanted to exterminate us, why did they bring us here and not there?” I was partially right because they did have a selection right there. I was able to push my mother with me and we went to the bath instead of the gas chamber. We got out, the others never did. We were taken to Majdanek which was a nothing camp but occasionally we would go to work.

Edit: Aligned the copy/paste.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Xcalibur » Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:33 pm

I have seen the above testimony before at RODOH. Not saying she's totally incredible but that testimony is rather worthless as to clarifying anything at all. She comes off in tone as rather hysterical, doesn't directly answer the questions put her and there may or may not be translation issues as well.

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:25 pm

Perhaps. She does jump around quite a bit, but if one pays attention, it's actually quite possible to follow. And from what I have heard, those weren't pleasant vacations and easy and short travels, so long ago. Many arrived exhausted and then were herded brutally and "Schnell, schnell!" I don't know how much of such craziness I would remember in every detail, chronologically or otherwise, And how smoothly I'd be able to recount it all in order. Especially if questions are being asked that interrupt a sentence and/or a train of thought.

And Majdanek here is only a small part of an apparently lengthy interview.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Xcalibur » Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:36 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:Perhaps. She does jump around quite a bit, but if one pays attention, it's actually quite possible to follow. And from what I have heard, those weren't pleasant vacations and easy and short travels, so long ago. Many arrived exhausted and then were herded brutally and "Schnell, schnell!" I don't know how much of such craziness I would remember in every detail, chronologically or otherwise, And how smoothly I'd be able to recount it all in order. Especially if questions are being asked that interrupt a sentence and/or a train of thought.

And Majdanek here is only a small part of an apparently lengthy interview.

Right. All of which is why I described her tone as hysterical and that her memories lacked clarity.

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:42 pm

Now answering in reverse order LOL . . .
Nessie wrote:I had it in mind that Majdanek was like the other death camps where trains or whatever transport would unload their human cargo and herd 100s if not 1000s to their deaths. The standard sites such as Wiki etc that I admit to using do not do anything to dispel that as their entries are rather vague. I had not noticed just how vague they were until I had watched Hunt's video and re read the sources and others I could find.
Again, bear with me. Here is material on the Majdanek camp summarized from David Silberklang's recent book, Gates of Tears: The Holocaust in Lublin District, and the USHMM Encyclopedia of Camps and Ghettos 1933-1945. First, from a brief note I wrote to myself on the overall purposes of the camp, edited for public consumption and updated for this discussion . . . :)

My note, describing my high-level, headline understanding of KL Majdanek: The obsessive attempt at playing gotcha with gas chambers, which deniers favor, obscures the core arguments historians make about various camps and the camp network as a whole. Take the case of Majdanek in the final solution - what are the headlines?

1) Majdanek was planned as a POW camp, but run by the KL administration from the outset as a mixed-purpose KL; it was not built to be an extermination center like BST or even Chelmno, and it never developed into an extermination center on the scale of Auschwitz

2) The camp's role in the final solution was significant if complex (see point 6)

3) Majdanek was part of Globocnik's Lublin "empire" and played an important role in cycling prisoners among camps, including the death; during 1943 the camp, along with others in Globocnik's sub-system, became a concentration site for Jewish labor as ghettos and various camps were liquidated

4) While Majdanek was not a purpose-built or huge extermination site, along with helping "sift" prisoners principally to Belzec until late 1942, it was also where 60,000 Jews and 20,000 others perished (mostly between September 1942 and November 1943)

5) Majdanek was one of the sites at which the Erntefest action was carried out in 1943 liquidating the large part of the remnants of the Jews in the Lublin areas and reducing the Jewish labor pool in the area to a minimum

6) Majdanek was both part of the KL system and within the Einsatz Reinhard program, taking some direction from Globocnik and having various functions, the relative importance of each changing over time - a place for the despoliation of the Jews (and collection/sorting/distribution of robbed goods), a collection and shunting point for Jews and other prisoners, and a center for forced labor both within the camp proper and in nearby camps and workshops.

Silberklang summary

(pp 250-251)
“Unlike Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka, this camp, on the southern outskirts of Lublin, was not formally part of ‘Operation Reinhard.’ However, because Globocnik was put in charge of the construction of this camp at the same time that he received his other new appointments from Himmler, he attempted to integrate it inot his overall activities as the need arose.

Majdanek’s distinction from the ‘Operation Reinhard’ camps is reflected in many of its aspects and functions. Unlike the ‘Reinhard’ camps, whose design, size, and location were determined by Globocnik and his men, Majdanek’s features and functions were influenced by Himmler and the Concentration Camps Inspectorate, in addition to Globocnik. It received Polish prisoners, Soviet POWs, and others, in addition to Jews, and served simultaneously as a forced-labor camp and as a murder center. It was constructed by Jews and Soviet POWs . . . beginning in the summer of 1941, but its projected size and function were altered several times by Himmler. It variably was meant to serve as a forced-labor camp, a concentration camp, a POW camp, and a death camp. It was built by the Zentralbauleitung der Waffen SS in Lublin, and neither Thomalla nor Wirth played any role in its construction.

Since Majdanek was formally part of Nazi Germany’s concentration camp system, its commandant was appointed through the Concentration Camps Inspectorate in Berlin, which was outside Globocnik’s jurisdiction. At the same time the camp was subordinate to Globocnik in his SSPF functions. . . . Karl Ottom Koch held the SS rank of Standartenfuhrer, as opposed to the much lower ranks of Globocnik’s subordinates in Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka. Koch also brought with him years of experience in concentration camps, most recently as commandant of Buchenwald. The camp in Lublin was constructed under Globocnik’s authority, but his authority over the day-to-day affairs of the camp was not absolute. Koch and his successors posed a challenge to Globocnik’s economic and political empire in Lublin.

. . . Globocnik was able to integrate the camp into several elements of ‘Operation Reinhard,’ such as establishing it as a sorting point for Jewish deportees from Germany and Czechoslovakia, using it as a sorting station for Jewish valuables, and as a Jewish forced-labor camp within Globocnik’s economic enterprises. Ultimately, Majdanek played a relatively secondary, though important, role in ‘Operation Reinhard,’ until the murder of 18,000 Jewish forced-laborers there in Aktion Erntfest [sic] in November 1943.”

Silberklang stresses the importance of Majdanek for labor as opposed to being central for the AR killing operation: On p 293, he discusses Altreich and Protectorate Jews deported to Lublin district, along with Jews from Mielec. Between 11 March and 20 June 1942, Silberklang says, “twenty-eight trains brought more than 25,000 Jews from Germany and fourteen trains from the Protectorate” – all but one of the latter from Theresienstadt. “Until the end of May, most of these Jews were housed temporarily alongside or in place of local Jews, rather than being sent directly to the extermination camps.” He describes a process of sending local Polish Jews to Belzec (e.g., Piaski, Izbica) and the central European Jews in effect replacing them. “The able-bodied among [the German and Czech, and Slovakian Jews transported to Lublin district] were generally used first for forced labor, especially in swamp drainage and in the construction and expansion of Majdanek.” At this time, the gas chamber/bunker complex at Majdanek had not yet been planned or built.

Silberklang gives the example of a late April transport from Theresienstadt that went to Izbica, after 400 of the 600 of the Jews on it had been taken off the train and deposited at Majdanek. Silberklang describes the Slovakian operation of that spring as the “most extensive and most protracted of all the deportations to Lublin” (p 294). The deportations lasted from 27 March to 14 June 1942. Special trains conveyed entire families of Slovakian Jews as well as the originally planned young men for forced labor; the inclusion of whole families tripled the number of deportees from Slovakia from the planned 20,000 to 60,000. Of these, 40,000 came to Lublin. “Until the end of May, the Jews arriving in Lublin would be divided into a small group selected for a labor camp and a large group that would be concentrated in ghettos or communities along or near rail lines.” Citing the examples of Jews sent to Deblin and Opole-Lubelski, Silberklang explains that “these Jews were sent on to death camps within a few days or weeks” (p 296). But some of the Jews were kept in the ghettos for labor, as was the case at Deblin. “The last ten trains bearing Slovakian Jews,” Silberklang tells us, “were sent directly to Sobibor and Majdanek,” given the primary roles of each camp. “Whatever slave labor was to be conducted was limited mainly to Majdanek, while the majority was sent to Sobibor for immediate killing by gas. This represented a change in the March-June operation against the Slovakian Jews: it was clear that all were to be killed; none were to be maintained temporarily in ghettos.”

On pp 364-365 Silberklang explains that Majdanek was a part of the network of Lublin district camps; this network comprised, along with Majdanek, the camps at the Lublin airfield, Lipowa 7, Trawniki, Dorohucza, Krychow, Zamek in Lublin (the castle), and a group of military camps in Deblin-Irena and Biala-Podlaska. Majdanek was one of the collection points (along with Budzyn and Trawniki) for Jewish laborers who were not sent to death when other camps were shut down. As of the end of October 1943 there were approximately 43,000 Jewish forced-laborers still working in Lublin district. On 3-4 November, in Aktion Erntefest, 33,000 of these laborers were executed, with the remainder surviving in 10 camps.

Silberklang details Aktion Erntefest on pp 403-408, I think these are important but not totally germane right now.

USHMM summary

(p 876)
Majdanek remained subordinate to IKL, even when designated originally as a POW camp. Himmler’s plans for Globocnik led to his having influence over the camp.

(p 877)
“Globocnik used Majdanek to realize three of the operation’s goals: exploiting Jewish workers, utilizing Jewish assets, and murdering Jews. Majdanek’s principal role in the operation was to concentrate Jews who had been temporarily spared extermination to work for the SS. The camp’s gassing facilities served primarily to dispose of the overflow from the other Reinhard killing centers . . .” It was only from 29 April 1942 through 3 November 1943 that Jews made up the vast majority of the camp’s inmates. Of the as many as 90,000 Jews deported to the camp, 56,500 were Polish (26,000 from Lublin district, 20,000 from Warsaw, 6,500 from Bialystok); 17,500 came from Slovakia (8,500), Bohemia and Moravia, Germany, Austria, and various other European countries.

There were 9,519 prisoners registered in October 1942; of these 7,468 were Jews – the 2nd biggest group were non-Jews from Poland (1,884). By August 1943, the camp held 16,206 prisoners – 9,105 Jews and 3,983 Poles. A women’s camp opened in October 1942. The % of Jews fell dramatically after Erntefest.

The camp had 270 or more labor details with a variety of assignments, including agricultural work. The Old Airfield labor camp stood “across the road from Majdanek.”

(p 878)
At the old airfield, “both Majdanek prisoners and Jewish forced laborers [were made] to sort and process clothing” from victims of AR. German Equipment Works (DAW) maintained workshops utilizing forced workers from Majdanek to repair uniforms and do other labor. In addition, after its formation in March 1943, Osti set up shops at the airfield and in Majdanek (aircraft parts reconditioning, brush making, etc).
The WVHA takeover of the Lublin labor camps, including Majdanek, was announced 7 September 1943.
“The SS destroyed most of Majdanek’s records before evacuating the camp,” meaning that caution must be used for estimates regarding arrivals, transfer, deaths. USHMM estimates deaths between 80,000 and 110,000 [as we know, Kranz, who has done a detailed study, supports the lower figure].

The total population rarely was more than 15,000. Conditions were terrible, with epidemics in summary 1942 and winter 1943.

(page 879)
Sick prisoners were left to languish in the Gammelblock – and then removed for gassing if they survived; weakened prisoners from other camps were brought to Majdanek starting January 1943 to die. Mortality was very high among the KL system. The original crematorium could dispose of only 200 corpses a day;a new crematorium was opened in autumn 1943 with enlarged capacity (1000/day) to deal with the number of deaths: “corpses continued to be burned on pyres” within the camp.

Poles and Jews were shot in pits behind Field V [near new crematory] or taken to nearby Krepiec Forest for execution by shooting. The USHMM article challenges my reasoning in this thread about the numbers of prisoners gassed, arguing that the largest portion of direct murder victims in the camp probably were gassed – and “that Majdanek’s role in the ‘Final Solution’ may been larger than most historians have heretofore assumed.” The entry suggests 50,000 or more victims of gassing. I am not sure why or how the entry's author reaches that conclusion - if Kranz is right about the deportations/transfers/survivors, then the death toll is what he says. Of this number, 60,000, Jews, we know that almost 20,000 were shot in Erntefest - which leaves us only 40,000 - and from what I've read a very good number of these, as explained earlier, died other than by gassing.
Nessie wrote:So what I am being told here is that above is misleading. The gas chambers killed those who worked at the camps and USHMM is the most accurate of all the sources, but it is not sure of itself.
Indeed. And worse in some cases than misleading: flat out wrong. Some glaring differences to the latest stuff I've read:
- Wiki - ixnay to the tank engine ixnay; misleading to say that the camp was refurbished as a killing center in March 1942 - see Silberklang's comments on deportations during spring 1942 and Kranz's time line (gas chambers built August-September 1942); also Kranz clearly states that there was fencing around the bunker, so I'd say the jury is at least out on that
- Nizkor - appallingly bad IMHO, confusing the influence of Globocnik to mean that the camp was part of AR and like BST - it wasn't similar to the BST camps; Majdanek was never transformed into a single-purpose death camp (nor was Belzec originally a labor camp to my knowledge, there was a separate labor camp near Belzec . . . ?); unlike Belzec, Majdanek had significant industrial and manufacturing operations - including subcamps and "sister" camps; the detail on killing methods is way off; it was estimated that 1.5 million were killed at Majdanek - but that estimate was quickly rejected . . .
- USHMM - not objectionable but way cursory; as we've seen, there's detail (Kranz) about how the Jews were treated on arrival and during their time at Majdanek during fall 1942 that the author should have used (unless s/he disagrees with Kranz . . . )
- HEART - description of bunker complex ok, not sure though how the roof served as effective camouflage, detail about gate and trucks comes from same source as Kranz I'd guess or from Kranz's book

As I've said, these sorts of educational websites, while useful at some general level, need to be taken with a grain of salt. USHMM, I find, is pretty much ok but very high level. Reading these bits - and thanks for collecting and posting the snippets - I would guess that the writers are not specialists in the narrow area of these entries - and that they rely on a hodge-podge of older source books. Just my supposition. The Nizkor entry is an embarrassment!
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Mon Dec 15, 2014 11:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:48 pm

@ Xcalibur

I'm trying to look at others as time allows, some are calmer, some mention gas chambers, others don't.

Seems some of it depends on when they were there, and for how long, or how old they were. Weak, sick and old ones apparently didn't make it at all. In my own words, that camp seems like a meat market from which choice cuts that survived the tenderizing were distributed, and all else fed to the dogs.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Dec 15, 2014 11:38 pm

Nessie wrote:. . . I had not thought of the possibility of gassings of those deemed unfit for work.
This point is critical to Majdanek, and indeed Auschwitz, Chelmno . . .
Nessie wrote:If Kranz states that there may have only been a very transports that went straight to the gas chambers (and he not certain of them) then that makes sense. I just could not see how hundreds, let alone thousands could be taken from their transport, herded to the chambers and gassed in an operation such as at TII.
I get the sense from Kranz and others that the selections were pretty regular. I think the scale - I'm not saying my estimate is perfect - that I described is in the ballpark - thus, not close to BST, Chelmno, or Birkenau.

I just posted, partly in reply to this and partly to a more recent post, three summary statements about the context in which I think Majdanek should be viewed.
Nessie wrote:The evidence of using the chambers for small scale gassings of prisoners in the camp makes sense. I shall read more.
Small-scale adding up to a substantial number - but over months, not the huge daily totals we've discussed elsewhere. Just to look at this another way: here are three days of arrivals at Treblinka during its 1942 peak (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Treblinka" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;):

8 Monday September 7, 1942 6,840 Warsaw 326,828
49 Tuesday September 8, 1942 13,596 Warsaw 340,424
50 Wednesday September 9, 1942 6,616 Warsaw 347,040

Three-day total: 27,052 (compared to my estimate of 25,000 gassed in over a year at Majdanek)

The "big day" and big logistical nightmare at Majdanek came 3 November 1943, when 18,400 Jews were shot behind Field V. People attempting escape. Gunfire. Screams. Music playing from loudspeakers to drown out the noise. Prisoners hauled from the airfield to the killing sites. Police and SS Wiking division firing squads blasting away. Bodies shoved into trenches. A semi-public spectacle with major corpse-disposal problems - on a much larger scale than the regular gassings. Let me share with you one remark from Silberklang's discussion of this, p 406:
During the moments that the records were changed to play more music, the rat-a-tat of the shooting could be heard by the other Majdanek prisoners and by Poles in Lublin (many of whom watched the scene from their rooftops.
There are major problems with the "perfect actor" ploy deniers use in their coulda-shoulda-woulda scenarios. For one thing, the situation is always fraught with "stickiness" - prior decisions, unexpected obstacles, short cuts to get something done on schedule, budgets, logistics - it's not as though people had a clean slate to work from. Like war, actually. But as important, IMHO, were the individuals involved: these men had a vast arrogance when it came to the Jews - and to the Poles and Russians, too. The Nazi occupiers looked down on these people, and where the Jews were concerned that arrogance translated into, to put it in the vernacular, a feeling that they "could get away with murder." Where scrmbldggs points out the absolute body crunching and mind destroying brutality - the catastrophic conditions which the Germans manufactured - at Majdanek, he is highlighting a really important aspect of all this. One that needs to be taken into account.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Dec 15, 2014 11:51 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Nessie wrote:I watch Eric Hunt's Majdanek film

http://holocausthoaxmuseum.com/majdanek ... mber-myth/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and have come to the conclusion that he makes a very good case that it was not a death camp where people were gassed in homicidal gas chambers.

Discuss.
I guess nobody wants to talk about Madjanek. Maybe everybody thinks you've crossed over to the darkside and so they're shunning you. Maybe everybody watched the video and are thinking "Holy crap! Madjanek really wasn't a death camp. This is terrible. We must not draw attention to this information or it's over for us." So you're getting the silent treatment. Some people are no doubt wondering why you suddenly started hating Jews. . . .
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Good one. Now that is funny!
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Tue Dec 16, 2014 12:08 am

scrmbldggs wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Pyrrho wrote:The sign reads:
Image

Image
This is even more pathetic than the "gas chamber never used as a gas chamber" sign that appears and disappears at Dachau. I don't need to watch Hunt's film. This signage alone proves that the idiots running the Madjanek museum are, well, idiots.

Carbon oxide? Are you serious?

What a joke!!
KOHLENMONOXYD
Kohlenmonoxid
Kohlenstoffmonooxid
Kohlenmonoxyd (veraltet)
Kohlenoxyd (veraltet)
Kohlenoxid (veraltet)

OXYDE DE CARBONE
Oxocarbon
Chemical Compound
An oxocarbon or oxide of carbon is an inorganic compound consisting only of carbon and oxygen. The simplest and most common oxocarbons are carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide. Wikipedia

CARBON MONOXIDE
Other names
Carbon monooxide
Carbonous oxide
Carbon(II) oxide
Carbonyl
Those aren't synonyms for carbon monoxide. Google each one separately to learn yourself some more better chemistry. Besides, "carbon oxide"--which is what the Poles call it--isn't on that list of other names anyway.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Dec 16, 2014 12:15 am

scrmbldggs wrote:I think it's a 'both/and'. Some were selected and killed on arrival, others during their stay at camp.
Yes, both/and. As noted, I don't know the proportions but from Kranz and the USHMM I draw the conclusion that the selections of prisoners during their stay at the camp were substantial.
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