A Radio Challenge

Roberto Muehlenkamp
Posts: 232
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2011 3:26 pm

Re: A Radio Challenge

Post by Roberto Muehlenkamp » Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:03 pm

Today I comment on FPB's post of Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:14 pm.
FPB wrote:Muehlenkamp's claim that Zyklon-B could be used to kill people quickly is NOT false--but, the method needed to accomplish that is extremely unlikely and even absurd. The method was first suggested to my knowledge by Sergey Romanov. The method relies on dumping many times more Zyklon-B into the chamber than would be needed to kill any group of victims if the Zyklon-B were used efficiently or conservatively. Where a can of Zyklon-B containing 500 grams of hydrogen cyanide would kill everything in a particular chamber over a 24-hour period, dumping 10,000 grams into the same room might kill everything in the chamber in fifteen minutes--using only that portion of the introduced 10,000 gram Zyklon-B that outgassed in the first fifteen minutes.

After the victims were all dead after about fifteen minutes, the excess Zyklon-B (and there would be lots of it) would continue to "out-gas" for many hours and impose an enormous risk to whoever was sent in to remove the bodies. Even with exhaust fans running, the excess Zyklon-B would still continue to release cyanide gas. Somehow, one might be able to gather all of the left-over Zyklon-B granules from the floor or baskets (from between the bodies as well?) and put it all into sealed containers. That p-a-r-t-i-a-l-l-y used Zyklon-B would be essentially worthless since one could not be sure how much cyanide it still contained--and therefore, the reasonable thing to do would be to dispose of it somehow.
Let's have a look at my calculations reproduced in the blog Reconstructing "A message to Jonnie Hannover Hargis ..." (1):
In order to reach a gas concentration of 3,000 ppm in the farthest corner within five minutes would require for the free volume of 430 m3 in morgue 1, an amount of hydrogen cyanide of app. 1.5 kg spread out over five minutes. Since the carrier material only releases approximately 10% of its hydrogen cyanide content after five minutes, at least ten times that amount would have been required in order to kill in only a few minutes, i.e., this would mean the utilization of at least 15 kg of Zyklon B.
First of all, why five minutes or a few minutes?
Rudolf's argument in this respect seems to be the duration of homicidal gassings at Auschwitz-Birkenau reported by witnesses, which he compares to times for a convict to die by hydrogen cyanide in US prison executions. Death as recorded in US prison executions means clinical death, ascertained by a physician on the basis of the applicable criteria for establishing death, which at least require that the convict's heart has stopped beating. This means that the times given by witnesses to gassings at Auschwitz-Birkenau would only be comparable to Rudolfs data from US prison executions if the former witnesses had reported clinical death in this sense.
A look at some of the eyewitness testimonies quoted in our 1st response under [link] clearly shows that this was not so:
Commandant Höss: "The process could be observed through the peep hole in the door. Those who were standing next to the air shaft were killed immediately. I can state that about one-third died immediately. The remainder staggered about and began to scream and struggle for air. The screaming, however, soon changed to gasping and in a few moments everyone lay still. After twenty minutes at the most, no movement could be detected. The time required for the gas to take effect varied according to weather conditions and depended on whether it was damp or dry, cold or warm. It also depended on the quality of the gas, which was never exactly the same, and on the composition of the transports, which might contain a high proportion of healthy Jews, or the old and sick, or children. The victims became unconscious after a few minutes, according to the distance from the air shaft. Those who screamed and those who were old, sick, or weak, or the small children died quicker than those who were healthy or young."
Hans Stark: "(...)As the Zyklon B -- as already mentioned -- was in granular form, it trickled down over the people as it was being poured in. They then started to cry out terribly for they now knew what was happening to them. I did not look through the opening because it had to be closed as soon as the Zyklon B had been poured in. After a few minutes there was silence. After some time had passed, it may have been ten to fifteen minutes, the gas chamber was opened. The dead lay higgledy-piggedly all over the place. It was a dreadful sight."
Pery Broad: "(...)As soon as the tin was emptied, the prussic acid escaped from the granules.(...) Some two minutes later the screams became less loud and only an indistinct groaning was heard. The majority of the victims had already lost consciousness. Two minutes more and Grabner stopped looking at his watch. It was over. There was complete silence. (...) Some time later, when the ventilators had extracted the gas, the prisoners working in the crematorium opened the door to the mortuary."
Miklos Nyiszli: "(...)The granulated substance fell in a lump to the bottom. The gas it produced escaped through the perforations, and within a few seconds filled the room in which the deportees were stacked. Within five minutes everybody was dead... In order to be certain of their business the two gas-butchers waited another five minutes. Then they lighted cigarettes and drove off in their car. They had just killed 3,000 innocents.... Twenty minutes later the electric ventilators were set going in order to evacuate the gas."
Dr. Andre Lettich: "Then SS-Unterscharfuhrer Moll dropped the gas through a little window. The cries that could be heard were frightening, but after a few moments complete silence reigned. Twenty to twenty-five minutes later the windows and doors were opened to air the room, and the corpses were immediately thrown into ditches, where they were burned."
All emphases in the above are ours - VT.
None of the quoted witnesses got close enough to a single of the victims to establish whether clinical death had occurred. The witnesses described what they saw or heard before the gas chamber doors were opened, and if some of them concluded from their perceptions that the victims were dead, this was only their unconfirmed assumption, for they had no way of telling clinical death from the unconsciousness that, in hydrogen cyanide poisoning, precedes death. This unconsciousness, according to US prison records mentioned in an article quoted by our opponents elsewhere in their submission – Dr. Friedberg’s article under [link] - is reported to occur after less than 2 minutes, long before the convict is actually dead. So if Rudolf compares the times mentioned by witnesses like those quoted above with the time until clinical death is recorded in US prison executions, rather than the time it takes for the convict to lose consciousness, he is comparing apples with oranges. His comparison is invalid also for another reason: after they had lost consciousness, the victims in the Auschwitz-Birkenau gas chambers continued to be exposed to the full concentration of hydrogen cyanide that had developed in the gas chamber until the ventilators had been switched on or - where there were no ventilators - until the doors had been opened to air out the chamber. This time, according to the above-quoted witnesses Nyiszli and Lettich, was twenty to twenty-five minutes after the gassing operation proper had been concluded, i.e. after all movement and noise inside the gas chamber had ceased. The total time between the introduction of the gas and the switching-on of the ventilator (where existing) or the opening of the doors for airing (where there were no ventilators) was about half an hour according to both Nyiszli and Lettich. Assuming that a few minutes in Starks deposition meant three to five minutes, it was 15 to 20 minutes, according to Stark. According to Höss, the first part of that period - the time until no movement could be detected - could take as many as twenty minutes.
So, contrary to what Rudolf tries to make believe, evidence does not suggest that it took five minutes or a few minutes for the victims inside the Auschwitz-Birkenau gas chambers to die. This timing is but a straw-man, conveniently postulated to fit the argument that Rudolf intends to make.
The concentration that Rudolf assumes, on the other hand - 1,500 grams of Zyklon B in 430 cubic meters, a concentration of ca. 3.5 g/m3 - is almost 11 times the concentration that, according to the sources cited by Dr. Green (see above) is rapidly fatal to an average human being. In a gassing at Birkenau Krematorium II on 13 March 1943, described by Pressac as quoted in Dr. Greens article The Chemistry of Auschwitz, the SS used 6 kilograms of Zyklon B to wipe out 1,492 women, children, and old people, selected from a convoy of 2,000 Jews from the Krakow ghetto. Krema II, according to Dr. Greens article Chemistry is not the Science, had a volume of 504 cubic meters, which would mean that on the occasion in question a concentration of 6,000 ./. 504 = 11.9 g/m3 was used. According to Rudolf himself, the free volume - presumably the volume not occupied by the victims' bodies - was 430 m3, so 6,000 grams of Zyklon B would make for 13.95 g/m3 - 42 times the concentration lethal to an average human being.
How fast this concentration would develop depended on the ambient temperature. In another part of their present submission, our opponents refer to a table featured under [link] on Rudolfs website, which corresponds to the right part of Illustration 1 of R. Irmscher’s 1942 article Nochmals: Die Einsatzfähigkeit der Blausure bei tiefen Temperaturen, digitalized on the THHP website under [link] and translated on the same site under [link]
This curve, which shows the evaporation of Zyklon B from Erco carrier material at temperatures of 18 C, - 6 C, 0 C and 15 C, makes clear that, even at the lowest of the temperatures considered, about 10% of the Zyklon evaporates within a period of about 5 to 15 minutes, the lower of these periods being roughly where the curve reaches the 10 % mark regarding the highest temperature, i.e. 15 C. This would mean that, at a temperature of 15 C, the concentration of Zyklon B in the gas chamber would after 5 minutes have reached 1.19 g/m3 or 1.395 g/m3, depending on whether it is referred to the gas chamber's total volume or to the free volume calculated by Rudolf - 3.6 to 4.2 times the lethal concentration.
At a temperature of 20 centigrade, evaporation would have occurred much faster, according to a monograph published in 1933 by Gerhard Peters of the Degesh company, translated by Dr. Ulrich Roessler and quoted in Dr. Green's online article The Chemistry of Auschwitz. Peters, as quoted by Green, wrote that the poison began to evaporate "with great vehemence" as soon as the tins were poured out, and that "the greatest part, nearly all" of the Zyklon B evaporated within 30 minutes at an ambient temperature of 20 centigrade. Assuming that the evaporation progressed linearly over time - which is unlikely, if only because the amount subject to vehement evaporation would be higher at the outset and thus more gas would be released at the beginning of the process - this means that roughly one-sixth of the substance would have evaporated after five minutes, making for a concentration of 1.98 g/m or 2.33 g/m - 6 or 7 times the lethal concentration.
However, an ambient temperature of 20 Celsius, still somewhat below the boiling point of hydrogen cyanide (25.6 degrees Celsius, according to the Merck Index, quoted by Dr. Green) is also likely to have been a rarity in the gas chambers of Auschwitz-Birkenau. For these chambers were full of human bodies and human body temperature is 37C, far above the boiling point of Zyklon B. The temperature inside the gas chamber, as we already pointed out, is likely to have been like in a sauna even at low outside temperatures, and it is thus described by several witnesses, e.g. Henryk Tauber:
[...]It was very hot in the gas chamber and so suffocating as to be unbearable.[...]
Source of quote: [link].
If an increase in temperature from 15 C to 20 C, still somewhat below the boiling point of hydrogen cyanide, cut the evaporation time and accordingly increased the gas concentration after 5 minutes evaporation by almost 70 %, it seems reasonable to assume that, at a far higher temperature well above the boiling point, the concentration after 5 minutes would be higher by at least the same factor - 3.31 g/m3 or 3,88 g/m3, 10 to almost 12 times the lethal concentration.
This, in turn, would correspond to roughly 28 % of the concentration after full out-gassing (11.9 g/m3 or 13.95 g/m3), or roughly 1.7 kg of evaporated Zyklon B.
So we can safely say that the amount required to reach the concentration that, according to Rudolf, is applied in US prison executions, was not 15 kg of Zyklon B for 430 cubic meters or roughly 35 g/m3, let alone a higher amount. Less than half of that can be assumed to have been sufficient, at the temperature in the gas chambers produced by the body heat of many frightened people packed together, to bring about a concentration of hydrogen cyanide that would meet both Rudolf's five minutes straw-man and his postulations regarding the gas concentration at US prison executions.
The above-mentioned concentrations at full out-gassing in g/m correspond to roughly 11,000 or 13,000 ppmv, the assumed concentrations after five minutes to ca. 3,000 or 3,500 ppmv.
How long would it take for these concentrations to be reduced to safe levels by the ventilators installed in the gas chambers of Birkenau crematoria II and III?
Well, certainly less than Dr. Green's calculations quoted in our 2nd response, which point to 18 - 23 minutes at an initial concentration of 7,200 ppmv and 26 minutes at an initial concentration of 18,100 ppmv. These calculations show that Rudolf is dead wrong when, as quoted by Dr. Green under [link], he claims that
The eyewitness testimony claiming adequate ventilation after 20 to 30 minutes in Mortuaries I of crematoria II and III are thus not credible.
The above reference to our 2nd response should also make clear that we never said anything about a quick and safe out-gassing of only a few minutes. So our opponents’ conclusion that:
This of course trashes thoroughly the idea of a quick and safe out-gassing of only a few minutes, as our opponents claim.
is utter trash also under the aspect of intellectual honesty.

Out-gas for many hours? Rubbish, to use one of Berg's favorite expressions. At an ambient temperature of 20º Centigrade, most of the out-gassing would have occurred after half an hour. At the much higher temperature (well above the boiling point of HCN) that can be assumed to have reigned in the homicidal gas chambers (due to the body heat of hundreds of closely packed bodies, eventually helped by preheating with portable braziers on the comparatively infrequent occasions - most homicidal gassing took place in springtime, summer and early autumn - when the outside weather was very cold), the time required for HCN to out-gas completely from the Zyklon B pellets would have been much shorter, probably shorter than the time between the introduction of the pellets and the end of the ventilation process. In the underground gas chambers of Birkenau crematoria II and III, Zyklon B was thrown into receptacles at the bottom of wire mesh columns, which could be removed from the chamber before full out-gassing. In the above-ground gas chambers of Birkenau crematoria IV and V and the Birkenau "bunkers", ventilation was done by letting an air current through the gas chamber after gassing. This may have taken longer than forced ventilation, but not so much longer as to make the procedure impracticable. Where ventilation was not sufficient to remove all risks of damaging the health of the body removal squad, they just had to be given gas masks, assuming that anyone cared about the health of the Sonderkommando Jews. Partially out-gassed pellets could not be used anymore? Maybe so, but what the heck? Zyklon B, the camp's standard pesticide, wasn't that precious.
FPB wrote:But why bother with such absurdities when the logical method, used by the Germans in hundreds of standard DEGESCH disinfection chambers including several at the Birkenau delousing stations, was to simply blow warm air (about 90 degrees Fahrenheit) through the granules and into the homicidal gas chamber. Since those homicidal gas chambers had mechanical ventilation with supply and return ductwork, it would have been so easy to simply put Zyklon-B granules into baskets placed into the ductwork. As warmed air was forced through the baskets, it would drive out the cyanide gas from the granules and disperse it quickly to all parts of the gas chamber. Any intended level of cyanide in the gas chamber could then be achieved quickly without any waste at all.
A better question would be, why bother equipping homicidal gas chambers (which were somewhat bigger than delousing chambers) with a device to blow warm air through the granules (which would have meant presumably considerable additional cost) when such a device could be done without? The device may have been important to make the gas spread more quickly in the delousing chambers, where in-animated objects like clothes were exposed to the gas. In the homicidal gas chambers, on the other hand, the victims themselves provided not only the temperature necessary for quick evaporation but also the air movement required for circulation, through their fast breathing and their frantic movements in death panic (as was already mentioned in my previous post on this thread).
FPB wrote:The problem for the holocaust hoax, however, is that the so-called "eyewitnesses" have firmly embraced other scenarios. Those other scenarios are totally bizarre and simply cannot be reconciled with the simple and "standard DEGESCH" method I have outlined above. The fans were supposedly turned on ONLY a-f-t-e-r the victims were all dead. That is what the "eyewitnesses" have said again and again--and now the "holocaust scholars" are stuck with that.
No sweat except in Berg's fantasies, for the reasons explained above.
FPB wrote:Supposedly, the Zyklon-B granules were literally dumped on the heads of the intended victims through holes in the ceiling of the gas chamber, or into mesh lined or perforated columns through the same holes. Within those columns, the Zyklon-B granules would have simply been sitting at the bottom w-i-t-h-o-u-t any air passing through them at all.
That would have been so only if the victims had remained as motionless as clothes and other in-animated objects.
FPB wrote:They would have been outgassing extremely slowly merely by evaporation out of the granules.
More utter rubbish, as we have seen. At temperatures close to or above its rather low boiling point, HCN out-gasses not slowly but very quickly.
FPB wrote:A more thoroughly stupid, and unlikely, and inefficient method is hard to imagine. Even with ten times more than the amounts of Zyklon-B needed for efficient gassing, the absurdity of the method suggested by Romanov and Muehlenkamp would have been obvious to anyone with slightest experience with Zyklon-B and the DEGESCH technology.
Actually the method was not only quite efficient, but also less expensive than Berg’s more refined method would have been. The concentration of HCN per cubic meter was about the same in the homicidal gas chambers as in the delousing gas chambers, so there was no excess expenditure of pesticide. And the device required to blow hot air through the pellets (which would have been more expensive to implement in the comparatively bigger homicidal gas chambers than in the comparatively smaller delousing chambers) could be done without.
FPB wrote:Would someone else, someone totally unfamilair with DEGESCH methods and without any common sense, have managed to impose such a thoroughly stupid method for cyanide gassings? I think not.
Even if the method had been as thoroughly stupid as Berg’s argument, this would only mean that Berg’s SS heroes were not the most practical people when it came to using Zyklon B for mass murder. So what? The Germans made bigger mistakes throughout World War II.

As it was, however, the SS at Auschwitz Birkenau not only gassed people efficiently but also saved costs in doing so. Process engineer Berg, on the other hand, would probably have had a hard time selling his more refined method to the SS Economics Main Administration Office (SS-Wirtschaftsverwaltungshauptamt – WVHA).

Roberto Muehlenkamp
Posts: 232
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2011 3:26 pm

Re: A Radio Challenge

Post by Roberto Muehlenkamp » Sat Jul 07, 2012 11:52 pm

In his last post on the CODOH thread "DEBATE between Roberto Muehlenkamp and Friedrich Paul Berg", my esteemed opponent managed to further destroy his own argument.
FPB wrote:Even the German military used producer gas or Holzgas widely to drive many of its own trucks. German Military Transport of World War Two by John Milsom, 1975, even has a number of pictures of German vehicles manufactured by Mercedes, Henschel, Ford and most important of all: General Motors. The Opel-Blitz by GM with producer gas was so widely used by the Wehrmacht that it even became a popular hobbyists model as the following link, one of several, shows:

http://babyloonmodel.blogspot.com/2012/ ... lzgas.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.perthmilitarymodelling.com/r ... l35018.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://papel3d.com/tienda/opel-blitz-ho ... -2720.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://blitz-creations.blogspot.com/201 ... -done.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
If the German military used producer gas vehicles to save liquid fuel, taking such vehicles out of transportation service in order to use them for homicidal gassing would have been counterproductive under the aspect of fuel economy, unless they were replaced by other producer gas vehicles. It may be that the German military used producer gas to drive many of its trucks, but most German military trucks still ran on gasoline, so a producer gas truck detached for gassing service would most likely have been replaced in transportation service by a gasoline truck, and that truck would have spent a lot more gasoline (especially if driving day in, day out on those lousy Russian roads) than a gasoline engine running in idle mode three or four times per day for half an hour each time during gassing operations at Belzec, Sobibór or Treblinka.
FPB wrote:Throughout the war, the US had more than 80% of the world's petroleum production and Germany, by contrast, had to use coal as an alternative source of hydrocarbons to make 85% of its motor fuels at an enormous expense
This doesn't change the fact that what gasoline was necessary for military operations, or for operations deemed as important as military operations by the Nazi state, was available in 1942. The amount of gasoline required for gassing operations was a trifle compared to what would have been required to burn the bodies if gasoline had been used as the main combustion agent, and even the daily requirements of Treblinka for corpse cremation that I calculated would have been below those of the 21st Panzer Division, as mentioned in post # 135.
FPB wrote:This is all the more reason to laugh at Muehlenkamp's insistence that because the military controlled the ARC camps, which is not true (Globocznik and Wirth were policeman--not military at all), there was no need to use anything other than gasoline to generate carbon monoxide for mass murder.
I didn't say the military controlled the ARC camps. What I said was that the following:
He [Berg] said all civilian vehicles were converted to producer gas so the military could use gasoline. OK, the Holocaust, the killing of the Jews, was a military operation, it was part of the war effort,[...](01:24:58)

The "Final Solution of the Jewish Question" was a state project considered equally important as the war effort or even part of the war effort, so fuel and other resources (especially transportation capacity) were allocated to it as they were to military operations. That was my point. As also mentioned in the blog Mattogno, Graf & Kues on Aktion Reinhard(t) Cremation (2), 6 million liters of gasoline were delivered to the Generalgouvernement in July 1942 alone, thereof 2,935 t for civilian authorities and 3,612 t for military authorities. It doesn't matter from which of the two contingents, the one for civilian or the one for military authorities, Globocnik got his fuel quota, which he mentioned in his message to the Personal Staff Reichsführer SS of 4.9.1942, requesting an increase of the quota to deal with upcoming "large shipments from abroad" (what were these shipments and why was additional fuel required to deal with them, Mr. Berg?). The fact is that he got it.
FPB wrote:If the military was involved, they would have known more than anyone else just how logical it was to use Holzgas for mass murder. They had more expertise and more need to conserve than anyone else.
If the military were as fuel-economy-minded as Berg claims, they would also have realized that detaching producer gas vans from transportation service for gassing duty need not have meant any fuel economy at all (rather the contrary), for the reasons explained above. And as Berg rightly pointed out, Himmler's mass murderers were not military men, hence not necessarily as mindful of the need to save the fuel resources they had access to in carrying out a mission considered of primordial importance for Nazi Germany.
FPB wrote:One point I made during the debate but which was cutoff by a commercial break was that even though Holzgas is indeed flammable, even explosive in concentrations greater than 12%--within any likely gas chamber, that danger is totally eliminated by simply turning on the water in the shower nozzles. Supposedly, the "gas chambers" were disguised as showers anyway. The toxicity of the carbon monoxide in the Holzgas would have been unaffected by any water spray--and in the process one would have washed away all that "sweat and urine" that Gerstein talked about.
So instead of fake shower-heads connected to pipes through which the exhaust gas was introduced, Berg's SS heroes would have had to make real showers in the gas chambers and connect them to a water supply source, just in order to use producer gas (which would have had to be introduced through another pipe system while the showers were running) without a risk of blowing themselves up, and all that just because Nazi military or civilian authorities couldn't spare a few daily gallons of gasoline for gassing engines. Yeah, very practical, Mr. Berg. And very close to real life. Do you ever realize just how ridiculous you are?

Roberto Muehlenkamp
Posts: 232
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2011 3:26 pm

Re: A Radio Challenge

Post by Roberto Muehlenkamp » Sun Jul 08, 2012 11:08 am

Donnageddon wrote:Oh crap, did I just venture into the "holocaust denial" thread?

Hi deniers, how is that denying the holocaust working out for you?

Not too well? That is to be expected. Perhaps you need a new hobby.

I hear "throwing yourself in front of a bus" is the latest craze. You should check it out!
They might also try balconing