Antwon Rose shooting

Duck and cover
bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 17763
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: After being pimped comes-----

Re: Antwon Rose shooting

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:50 pm

Kevin: I sense you are trying?

You did NOT connect your dots. Its a side issue, but still....... I think I know what you might be trying to say, or in fact, I have devined the strongest argument for what I think you are pointing at: but you aren't.

STATISTICS PROVE: like seatbelts and helmets that those wishing the opposite policy are simply wrong. Now: what other consideration is there?
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

KevinLevites
Poster
Posts: 179
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 4:20 pm

Re: Antwon Rose shooting

Post by KevinLevites » Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:15 pm

It doesn't seem all that wrong when I'm treating a rape victim who says: "If I only had a gun."

It's easy for us to Monday morning quarterback in such a situation when we weren't in it.

I once used a handgun to kill what I thought was a rabid fox (they're scavengers, and this one turned out to be sick from eating dead rats that had been killed by poison bait) in my apartment complex during the aftermath of a hurricane.

I kept children from being bitten when there were no phones and the streets were flooded.

Stats really didn't mean a lot to me at the time.

Were there other alternatives?

Perhaps.

I could have thrown a piece of furniture like a chair, masked and gowned up with goggles, and finished it off with a baseball bat. If I was into archery, maybe I could have shot it with a bow.

I don't know. The thing is, I was in the situation...not anyone else.

At the time, I didn't care about stats.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 17763
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: After being pimped comes-----

Re: Antwon Rose shooting

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:29 pm

It doesn't seem all that wrong when I'm treating a rape victim who says: "If I only had a gun." /// Thats emotions, NOT REALITY. The Reality: Statistics. Knowing the facts. Seat belts save lives....no matter how many you meet who thank god they were thrown clear. You "know" this but refuse to accept what your own brain tells you.

It's easy for us to Monday morning quarterback in such a situation when we weren't in it. /// There is NOTHING monday morning about this. STATISTICS: include all the other days of the week.

I once used a handgun to kill what I thought was a rabid fox (they're scavengers, and this one turned out to be sick from eating dead rats that had been killed by poison bait) in my apartment complex during the aftermath of a hurricane. /// Animal Control, so a stray shot from you doesn't kill a neighbor half a mile away.

I kept children from being bitten when there were no phones and the streets were flooded.

Stats really didn't mean a lot to me at the time. /// Yes, that is what we are discussing. The goal: to have you listen to your brain rather than your emotions.

Were there other alternatives? //// Re rabid foxes?==yes, avoid them.

Perhaps.

The thing is, I was in the situation...not anyone else. /// Yes...everyone is included in STATISTICS.

At the time, I didn't care about stats. /// That is your error.....but the subject is actually not "your" subjective druthers, but rather what are the facts? For society. What should the rules be for a safer more sane society? Certainly not a bunch of people working off their emotions.
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
Has No Life
Posts: 12528
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: Antwon Rose shooting

Post by Lance Kennedy » Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:08 pm

Kevin

I agree with Bobbo here. Rejecting statistics because of an anecdote is simply wrong. Rather than rejecting them, learn about them.

There are a myriad of rationalisations about gun possession, and a hell of a lot of them come from the gun makers. To understand this, you simply have to realise that guns are big business. Mega billion dollars. This leads, as always, to corruption . It is exactly like the response of the tobacco companies to the news that smoking causes cancer. They hired big brains to come up with nice sounding rationalisations to deny the truth. The gun makers do the same, and pay the NRA many millions of dollars to promulgate their lies. This propaganda is seized upon by those people who like guns, and repeat the misinformation.

It is worse than that. The big money is used to bribe politicians to get their support for opposing sensible gun control. Donald Trump, for example, received $30 million from the NRA for his presidential campaign. Trump has proved to be an honest politician (one who STAYS bought) and has opposed sensible gun control.

Look instead to independent researchers who work to uncover the objective truth. Such people publish their findings regularly in the USA.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 17763
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: After being pimped comes-----

Re: Antwon Rose shooting

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:50 pm

IIRC....the Law Firms and PR firms that Big Tobacco hired to FUD up the Truth, were the same ones hired by Big Oil to do the same to deny Human caused Global Warming. I want to say: "Same firms hired by NRA," but thats not my memory.

Its still organized misinformation for profit.

..........if only Congress weren't filled by the corrupt.........
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

KevinLevites
Poster
Posts: 179
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 4:20 pm

Re: Antwon Rose shooting

Post by KevinLevites » Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:51 pm

If anything, there are points that you don't make that I would add.

Guns are readily available on the Dark Web, and many of these politicians make deals with other countries to sell them guns...and the US is the major supplier of guns (through quasi legal channels) to drug traffickers in Central and South America.

There is a diffetence between legitimate self defense and having the firepower of an infantry soldier.

Self defense takes many forms (as was mentioned earlier), but I believe our sticking point is that I believe guns have a place in this process.

The problem too is what I think of as the slippery slope fallacy.

If we allow a moderate form of gun ownership to the masses, then eventually we have people walking around with machine guns and armor piercing rounds.

People believe it works in reverse: if we outlaw machine guns, armor piercing rounds, and bump stocks...then all guns will, someday, be forbidden.

I'm trying to champion intelligent moderation and a retreat from the "either-or" fallacies of the slippery slope. I've written to my congressman about 100 round drums, tracer rounds, adapters that make civilian guns into machine guns, and silencers...all of which should be outlawed...with very strict legal penalties (like hard time) for violations.

I've also championed the cause of making 80% receivers illegal. Basically, an 80% receiver is a component (usually the frame of the gun) that can be filed and drilled at home to make an AR-15 with no paperwork and no background check.

The 80% receiver is a dangerous legal loophole that lets psychos and criminals build their guns at home with no serial number and no government oversight.

I believe it's only a matter of time before a convicted criminal uses one of these things in another Parkland or Sandyhook.

Despite people questioning my choices as a gun owner, I am very active in trying to get certian laws changed by lobbying my congressman, and I have had letters published in newspapers about the issue.

I even posted about the dangers of bumpstocks on this forum over a year before Las Vegas, and I prophesized that it was only a matter of time before a dangerous maniac took a lot of lives...something I wish I was wrong about.

And no, I'm not an NRA member because I think they suck and have blood on their hands.

I also believe that taking a sensible middle ground in these issues doesn't qualify me as a hypocrite.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 17763
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: After being pimped comes-----

Re: Antwon Rose shooting

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:14 pm

If we allow a moderate form of gun ownership to the masses, then eventually we have people walking around with machine guns and armor piercing rounds.
Thats what we have now. Well....bump stocks and large magazines. Lost track of where the Cop Killer bullets are....
People believe it works in reverse: if we outlaw machine guns, armor piercing rounds, and bump stocks...then all
guns will, someday, be forbidden.
Whats wrong with that?
I'm trying to champion intelligent moderation and a retreat from the "either-or" fallacies of the slippery slope.
There is no flat ground....only slippery slopes to everywhere. Given the two you recognize, which is better/worse? All guns or no guns? In this day and age, there is nothing "intelligent" in allowing public ownership of modern firearms, not in the Culture/laws of the USA Today. You simply are not dealing with reality, rather, what you like personally for yourself, not accepting that position leads to what we have today. Its like arguing for "Clean Coal." Ain't no such thing.

Who said hypocrite? Heh, heh.....other emotional experiences brought forward in your analysis??? ie: not the facts before you? Focus on that a bit.............
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Gawdzilla Sama
Real Skeptic
Posts: 23238
Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2008 2:11 am
Custom Title: Deadly but evil.

Re: Antwon Rose shooting

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:20 pm

Who suggested statistics are the only consideration when it comes to deciding issues of what is right and wrong, please.
Chachacha wrote:"Oh, thweet mythtery of wife, at waft I've found you!"
WWII Resources. Primary sources.
The Myths of Pearl Harbor. Demythologizing the attack.
Hyperwar. Hypertext history of the Second World War.
The greatest place to work in the entire United States.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 17763
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: After being pimped comes-----

Re: Antwon Rose shooting

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:33 pm

I did. Stands in opposition to anecdotal. Read the application: anecdotal = I was thrown from the car and the seat belt would have killed me. Countered by Statistics = Seat Belts save lives.

Warp away.
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
Has No Life
Posts: 12528
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: Antwon Rose shooting

Post by Lance Kennedy » Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:33 am

Kevin

You are pushing an extreme view. No one is suggesting a total ban on guns. Just sensible gun control. All the western nations with minimal firearms murders have that. The system is simple. People get a gun licence, just like Americans now get a drivers licence. That licence permits them to own a gun from a limited range of permitted firearms. Not hand guns and not automatics.

If you look at the statistics for gun ownership for other nations, you will see that a lot of guns are in private ownership. That includes Australiasia and western Europe, which all have very low firearms murder rates compared to the USA. The difference is that the gun owners have licences and they possess sporting rifles and shotguns, rather than hand guns and automatics.

The lowest murder rate in the western world is Japan, which has the tightest gun laws and the lowest gun ownership. Guess which western nation has both the highest murder rate and highest gun ownership ?

KevinLevites
Poster
Posts: 179
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 4:20 pm

Re: Antwon Rose shooting

Post by KevinLevites » Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:49 am

The U.S. has the highest percentage of guns in private hands.

Our murder rate is high, but I don't know where we rank.

Our problem seems to be a disagreement about how stats should be applied.

I go back to my cancer example earlier in this thread. Sacrificing one unwilling person to cancer research might save thousands of lives, but we don't do this because it's wrong.

Police are not always available to prevent horrible things from happening, and our constitution has been interpreted to mean that individual people are not automatically entitled to police protection.

Even if we could, somehow, use an as-yet to be postulated device to retrieve all guns in civilian hands and destroy them (like Star Trek sensors?), there will still be defenseless people at the prey of criminals.

I think the ultimate answer may, in the future, come from technology.

We have implanted microchips now.

I can postulate a gun that notifies law enforcement if it's fired, and, perhaps, self-destructs if seperated from it's owner. Also, I can postulate a camera built into a gun that feeds to a police station, with a cop that can turn it off if its being used inappropriately.

Such things seem like outlandish science fiction now, but so did the Internet in the 1970s.

It doesn't help us now, but I predict that smart guns will gradually increase in sophostication until many varieties of violent crime become impractical.

Until then, people should take responsibility to protect themselves, and there are other considerations besides statistics.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 17763
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: After being pimped comes-----

Re: Antwon Rose shooting

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jun 27, 2018 2:16 am

Taa Daaaaa!
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
Has No Life
Posts: 12528
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: Antwon Rose shooting

Post by Lance Kennedy » Wed Jun 27, 2018 3:44 am

Many other nations, Kevin, were in a similar position to the USA today, with too many guns in private hands. Those nations changed their laws and policed them, and stopped the murders. Britain once had a silly rule similar to the American second amendment, but realised it was idiotic and dumped it. Britain today has almost zero hand guns in private ownership, and a gun murder rate of less than 5% that of the USA.

It can be done WITHOUT any magical new technology. It just requires the political will.

There are countries with a higher murder rate than the USA. They tend to be third world nations with some kind of civil war under way. Surprise ! Wars increase firearm killings.

Mexico for example has major drug organisations with their own private armies, which are at war with the central Mexican government. This result in horrible firearm killing statistics. But peaceful western nations, EXCEPT THE USA, have low rates of gun murders.